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Post by madjack on Feb 4, 2022 8:07:24 GMT
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Feb 4, 2022 8:13:40 GMT
I don't recall Coyote saying that "Loup" had to observe the Court. He just said that he wouldn't find understanding through force, but he would find it in the Court and that Ysengrin might help.
[edit] why is this relevant? If he's just using a figure of speech it isn't, but there's a chance he's rationalizing/deflecting/what-have-you and it's Coyote's influence making him think he is compelled to and that may be a sign that his time is running out. [/edit]
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Post by blahzor on Feb 4, 2022 8:36:10 GMT
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Post by csj on Feb 4, 2022 8:52:15 GMT
owo
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Post by bicarbonat on Feb 4, 2022 8:53:07 GMT
I wonder if Loup's going to be snookered into weakness via what is arguably Coyote's biggest calling card: inquisitiveness/inability to stay out of things.
It reminds me of the "laser-focused spy/specialist who ends up observing the life of another while on assignment" trope. Not that I think that Loup is going to fall in love with the people of the Court – but observation, playing small, all of that allows for a very different experience (and intel) than Loup's previous chaotic brute force would've gotten.
Observing and masquerading means more opportunity to see Antimony in a less combative* state, which reflects the bulk of Ysengrin's (and thus Loup's) memories of her. More of that means more chance for instability within Loup. More instability means less laser focus and more mistakes, more – for lack of a better word – humanity and less microwave godhood.
And that Siddell's knife keeps sitting on that proverbial mantelpiece...
*toward Loup; obv there's still a crisis on
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Post by ghostiet on Feb 4, 2022 11:08:29 GMT
I wonder if Loup's going to be snookered into weakness via what is arguably Coyote's biggest calling card: inquisitiveness/inability to stay out of things. I think this is pretty much the plan, yeah. Coyote's choice of words is also deliberate, as someone mentioned earlier: he merely suggested the idea, knowing that Loup isn't one to think too much ahead. I believe Coyote wants to end whatever the Court is trying to do, but that's his way of evening out the playing field so he can have his cake and eat it - Loup does the job, but nothing more, either because he makes himself vulnerable for Antimony or because he develops himself beyond childish rage. Bonus points if both happens: Loup finally grows a bit but Antimony still offs him, because that would be a hilarious fucking prank for someone like Coyote. |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Feb 4, 2022 12:49:42 GMT
"What's this?" Good question Loup, why does the finger print on the moon now look like a butt?
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Post by pyradonis on Feb 4, 2022 15:11:00 GMT
"What's this?" Good question Loup, why does the finger print on the moon now look like a butt?
Well, some time had obviously passed. |
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Post by ctso74 on Feb 4, 2022 16:17:51 GMT
Maybe, we'll get an idea of when he inhabited Jerrek.
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Post by Gemminie on Feb 4, 2022 16:26:00 GMT
I guess that's all we're going to hear for now of what Coyote had to say. Time passes in the first frame, during which there was a big boom. Or a big crash might be more appropriate.
So, it seems that some time after the wave of Forest crashed over the Court shore, Loup briefly stood atop a building while no one was there to observe him – everyone was pretty busy, after all. "You will not find understanding through force! You will find it in the Court!" said Coyote, and it looks like Loup is very calmly taking that advice. His seeming breakdown, then, does seem as if it was a ruse. He's caused a lot of destruction as a distraction (a destruction distraction?), and now he's going to observe.
In the third frame, he sees ... something. What does he see? I'm guessing he's going to see some New People scavenging for robot CPUs, whereupon he'll get the idea of disguising himself as one of them in order to observe. But we'll see what he sees.
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Post by mturtle7 on Feb 4, 2022 17:44:49 GMT
"What's this?" Good question Loup, why does the finger print on the moon now look like a butt?
Ooh, good catch! It's still not clear whether this page takes place before or after the events of the previous chapter, but now at least we know that it's not at the same time!
Next page, I guess we'll find out if those two pages of Coyote are all the context we'll be getting for Loup's actions, or if there's still more to see before we catch up to the present moment.
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Post by blahzor on Feb 5, 2022 2:44:38 GMT
I guess that's all we're going to hear for now of what Coyote had to say. Time passes in the first frame, during which there was a big boom. Or a big crash might be more appropriate. So, it seems that some time after the wave of Forest crashed over the Court shore, Loup briefly stood atop a building while no one was there to observe him – everyone was pretty busy, after all. "You will not find understanding through force! You will find it in the Court!" said Coyote, and it looks like Loup is very calmly taking that advice. His seeming breakdown, then, does seem as if it was a ruse. He's caused a lot of destruction as a distraction (a destruction distraction?), and now he's going to observe. In the third frame, he sees ... something. What does he see? I'm guessing he's going to see some New People scavenging for robot CPUs, whereupon he'll get the idea of disguising himself as one of them in order to observe. But we'll see what he sees. Let's hope he comments on them not being humans not forest creatures and that is why he disguises as one of them instead of a faceless court person |
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Post by DonDueed on Feb 5, 2022 16:23:48 GMT
So, it seems that some time after the wave of Forest crashed over the Court shore, Loup briefly stood atop a building while no one was there to observe him – everyone was pretty busy, after all. "You will not find understanding through force! You will find it in the Court!" said Coyote, and it looks like Loup is very calmly taking that advice. His seeming breakdown, then, does seem as if it was a ruse. He's caused a lot of destruction as a distraction (a destruction distraction?), and now he's going to observe. It's possible the breakdown (or tantrum) was quite real, but the aftermath left him calm again. Like any other orgasmic outburst, amirite? |
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Post by Bo No Bo on Feb 5, 2022 17:42:27 GMT
"Uwu, what is this, then?"
Perhaps a 'new' human for the easy pickings?...
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Post by davidm on Feb 5, 2022 17:45:14 GMT
It could be a mix of ruse and temper, Loup is a chaotic mix of anger and cunning, and long ago those that became him used angry ruse to smuggle seeds into court. He is young kid with unmatched power yet can't control it all, does not want to die and yet coyote has set him up to die with a tooth/knife that can kill him and a certainty that he will die. He likely "loves" Annie, yet knows Annie is meant by coyote to kill him. The whole business would be very frustrating, leading to anger outbursts combined with desperate cunning to try to survive coyotes plan.
Coyote was there in the beginning to destroy the tik tok bird after it saved Annie, Loup has that memory, likely knows time travel is involved and yet can't grasp the end game. We know that Nords will be visited in future, so may will be more time travel, which Loup may also know about.
Coyote also got excited about Annie dealing with Jeannie which then lead to Loup, all the robots used to say "she died and we did nothing, Jeannie is beautiful", etc. So that plot of Jeannie, Diego (who likely planted that Jeannie religion part), etc may also be involved in end game.
Often the story is portrayed in covers like a battle between court and forest, technology and magic, possible end game is to have both work together rather than one wipe out the other.
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Post by drmemory on Feb 6, 2022 4:39:34 GMT
So are we still looking at stuff happening while Coyote's phantasmal head is sticking out of Loup, before all the drama, or what? It could be that time is frozen in the forest (again), though one would think Annie or Aata might notice that. I guess we don't really know enough to know whether this is happening before the tantrum, or after, or even in parallel. The only thing that seems certain is that is has to be after Coyote told him his answers could be found in the court. I almost feel like we could be seeing Loup moving "very fast" somehow, and that he will see what is going on in the court before he decides what he wants to do next. I guess we'll learn more when we see what Loup is seeing, and whether that is moving or not.  I feel like that really bright first panel is a clue but I'm not getting it. Looking back in The Lake Water for time clues, we can see that:
In the forest, it was dark. No moon shown on any page. Which makes sense - I think they weren't really in real space at that point, or at least not in real time.
Yet, still dark in the forest. However, we can see a bright light above Loup's head! Same light as we see now?
While talking to Annie, Coyote confirms they are in the ether! Which makes me wonder if everyone present is seeing the same thing! But, it only confirms that Annie and Coyote are talking in the ether, as when Coyote gives Aata the boot (or paw), it's dark where they are too.
Best guess as to the passage of time: All the events from when Annie and Aata and the rest entered the forest until Annie and her forest buddies were dug out happened in the same day. It's still light when they got out! I'm saying it's the same light (the same day). Don't know enough to guess at when today's events happened exactly, but it would make a lot of sense for that to be a copy of Loup or something there.
Then, time passes, and we see the Dover Demon and the digging robots sometime later, not that same night. Perhaps a week or two later?
Nothing to do with my little time study, but here is one of the reasons I don't really like that smug, condescending little Buddha prick. It isn't really his expedition, as he wouldn't even be there if he hadn't stolen the lake water from Annie and held it hostage all this time, yet he gives it to her as if he were in charge, and says he is "glad to have her along". Well, if he hadn't jammed himself into the situation, it is certain that Annie would have returned the lake water on her own, probably with everyone along except for the SCLP and his minions, and none of the rest would have happened. No freaking out Loup, no near-death experience for Shell, no getting thrown out of the Shadow Men, no trashing of the court... All his fault. I don't even get why Shell looks up to him, much less the rest of how she feels about him. He's just a bitter, jealous little man, trying to steal that which does not belong to him.
When Coyote let's go, after talking to Annie, he whips back along the energy line, destroying the machine and tuning forks on his way back to Loup! I'm tired of making links but you can re-read it. Note, though, that he chose to blast through the machine and the tools, instead of his previous path along side the energy line. Can't blame him.
One more though - when Coyote talks to Loup, as we are seeing currently, they are in that bright light area, which I suspect is the same light as in panel 1 today.
Then we go back to Loup freaking out (real or no) and all the cool graphics stuff happening, then he lets go of the forest. He sure looks like he lost it, and maybe he did. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Feb 6, 2022 8:32:20 GMT
Nothing to do with my little time study, but here is one of the reasons I don't really like that smug, condescending little Buddha prick. It isn't really his expedition, as he wouldn't even be there if he hadn't stolen the lake water from Annie and held it hostage all this time, yet he gives it to her as if he were in charge, and says he is "glad to have her along". In partial defense of Aata I would note that Antimony was the last to arrive so he may have had some justification in wanting to get things moving... though I don't see the need to cut her off mid-sentence if it was only that. That whole sequence of events was putting her in her place and making sure that everyone knew it... but a case could be made that Antimony, as a problematic and sometimes-disobedient student with divided loyalties, needed to be put in her place so none of the other party members had to decide who's orders to follow later if a crisis happened. I can't condemn Aata for only that. I condemn him for this incident where he jumps on Antimony seemingly keeping it from the Court that Coyote is still alive, but then Coyote calls him on it by saying Aata likely knew Coyote was dead. The previous incident is power-positioning and arguably leadership, the latter is someone who is playing head games. Antimony would have had trouble defending herself from that charge if Coyote hadn't effectively neutered it; maybe Aata as a spook thought he had a good reason for employing that tactic for what secrets he thought he could get out of Antimony in the process, maybe not, but it is an adversarial sort of tactic and not something that should be used lightly on a teammate/coworker who might be working for/with the Court for a long time. I figure he thought he could get away with it because Antimony wouldn't know. Why does Shell like Aata so much? His travels and experience are probably part of it but Aata plays head games and he was her superior for an indefinite period of time, so I don't need further explanation. If he's thinking of recruiting teenaged Kat and Antimony he might be imagining doing the same with them. |
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Post by drmemory on Feb 7, 2022 15:54:09 GMT
Nothing to do with my little time study, but here is one of the reasons I don't really like that smug, condescending little Buddha prick. It isn't really his expedition, as he wouldn't even be there if he hadn't stolen the lake water from Annie and held it hostage all this time, yet he gives it to her as if he were in charge, and says he is "glad to have her along". In partial defense of Aata I would note that Antimony was the last to arrive so he may have had some justification in wanting to get things moving... though I don't see the need to cut her off mid-sentence if it was only that. That whole sequence of events was putting her in her place and making sure that everyone knew it... but a case could be made that Antimony, as a problematic and sometimes-disobedient student with divided loyalties, needed to be put in her place so none of the other party members had to decide who's orders to follow later if a crisis happened. I can't condemn Aata for only that. I condemn him for this incident where he jumps on Antimony seemingly keeping it from the Court that Coyote is still alive, but then Coyote calls him on it by saying Aata likely knew Coyote was dead. The previous incident is power-positioning and arguably leadership, the latter is someone who is playing head games. Antimony would have had trouble defending herself from that charge if Coyote hadn't effectively neutered it; maybe Aata as a spook thought he had a good reason for employing that tactic for what secrets he thought he could get out of Antimony in the process, maybe not, but it is an adversarial sort of tactic and not something that should be used lightly on a teammate/coworker who might be working for/with the Court for a long time. I figure he thought he could get away with it because Antimony wouldn't know. Why does Shell like Aata so much? His travels and experience are probably part of it but Aata plays head games and he was her superior for an indefinite period of time, so I don't need further explanation. If he's thinking of recruiting teenaged Kat and Antimony he might be imagining doing the same with them. That all sounds plausible, but still does not in any way make me like him better. It also seems a bit inconsistent with the whole Buddha/island god thing. He claims to be doing what he is doing for the good of all humanity, yet he does not treat people well. I'm not sure I agree that what he did there was reasonable though - he took the lake water from Annie and stated that her interactions with the forest of late had been unsatisfactory and that he would be taking over. He then used the time to come up with this scheme to steal Coyote's power, complete with special machinery, and brought a bunch of drones with him into the forest to carry it out. I can almost see the investigation into Annie's mental state if he actually planned to use her as part of the plan, but instead he treated her rudely and just used her as a key to the forest so his people wouldn't get stomped or killed when they tried to enter. So what was the point of that?
As I said before, if he hadn't interfered to start with, Annie would no doubt have returned the lake water sooner, without all of this drama. Most likely, there would still be a separate forest and the court buildings wouldn't be trashed. We still don't know about casualties...
The one redeeming thing here is that it is possible that it had to happen this way for Coyote's plan to work out. Who can say?
If this is a "fair game" thing, like the Scientologists, where it's ok to do anything you want to someone on the outside (as Annie isn't 100% human), really not cool. Remember, the shadow men are from a part of the court that is not connected to the school! Annie and the other kids should not be under his authority.
Your comment about using head games and such working Shell around to where she is sounds very plausible. Yet, it only contributes to my hope that he will at some point get his comeuppance.
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Post by warrl on Feb 7, 2022 17:36:13 GMT
He claims to be doing what he is doing for the good of all humanity, yet he does not treat people well. “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.” -- C. S. Lewis |
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Post by todd on Feb 8, 2022 0:08:07 GMT
He claims to be doing what he is doing for the good of all humanity, yet he does not treat people well.] He might be more fond of humanity as an abstraction than of individual humans. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Feb 8, 2022 2:44:16 GMT
I can almost see the investigation into Annie's mental state if he actually planned to use her as part of the plan, but instead he treated her rudely and just used her as a key to the forest so his people wouldn't get stomped or killed when they tried to enter. So what was the point of that? I think the point of the psych recon was to make sure Antimony was stable enough to be used as an entry pass into the wood. He needed to know she would try her best to keep "Loup" under control because his life and everyone else's lives (including Antimony) was on the line. She did try her best (albeit less artfully later on) but I have no doubt that if she had been off her game things would have gone worse sooner. The one redeeming thing here is that it is possible that it had to happen this way for Coyote's plan to work out. Who can say? Maybe. In my mind the one semi-redeeming thing about Aata is that he was willing to get kicked out of the Shadow Men to save Shell's life. I question how much he actually wanted to remain in the organization after botching the ether-heist and losing his leadership position, though. And of course Shell is a devoted follower of his and therefore useful. So, yeah. Not that redeeming. Your comment about using head games and such working Shell around to where she is sounds very plausible. Yet, it only contributes to my hope that he will at some point get his comeuppance. I dunno if it'll be in the comic but I think the fact that Aata has the powers he has indicates that he'll eventually return to and complete his original path. That should mean sometime before that he'll need to acknowledge the failure of the path he's currently on, and I don't see him doing that unless his plans all fail irreparably. Not sure that counts as comeuppance but it's something. |
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