V
Full Member
I just think it's a pity that she never wore these again.
Posts: 168
|
Post by V on Oct 13, 2021 7:04:19 GMT
If your secret brotherhood is about to kick you out, spill out all their plans. Way to go, Aata. Lucky for you that Shell has not been trained to shoot a traitor before they finish a sentence – or there's some kind of burning emotion within her preventing her from doing so. |
|
|
|
Post by imaginaryfriend on Oct 13, 2021 7:06:52 GMT
There's a reason "shouda" comes last after "wuda" and "couda."
|
|
|
|
Post by davidm on Oct 13, 2021 7:07:23 GMT
he isn't a traitor because it's no longer a secret... its like after World war 2 D-Day, the allies trying to keep a secret from the germans the D-Day invasion plan.
|
|
|
|
Post by philman on Oct 13, 2021 7:53:21 GMT
Shell has loyalty, to Aata, not the shadow men.
Interested to hear a despondent Aata's spill some of the (cool) beans now, and at least confirm some of what everyone suspects.
|
|
|
|
Post by blahzor on Oct 13, 2021 8:11:38 GMT
sticking by the side of the entity that saved your life? what are you, rational?
|
|
|
|
Post by madjack on Oct 13, 2021 8:14:32 GMT
Annie remained cool back during the doll incident (vs Eglamore), presumably got somewhat desensitized by all the weirdness and “big reveals” since then, and her self-control improved recently. Also, she doesn't need to, considering how Aata just set himself up. She only needs to point out that it was his "upgrade" that wasn't very useful itself and made robots useless. Then just proceed to evaluate his last grand plan, which was much worse than that. Yeah it is entirely possible that I'm not giving her anywhere near enough credit, but there is a lot of history behind Annie making bad decisions so.. Happy to be wrong here, Annie is focusing her anger on the person, not the topic. What's not encouraging is the rest of the Shadow Men's cult-like behaviour, panel 4 shows them drawn with their backs turned on Aata and Shell, they already don't want anything to do with him. |
|
|
|
Post by flowsthead on Oct 13, 2021 8:35:48 GMT
If Aata is out, maybe this is an opportunity for Annie to gain extra knowledge? I'm actually still stuck on that reveal that Jones was giving information to Aata. I still want to know what that was about.
|
|
|
|
Post by gpvos on Oct 13, 2021 9:23:42 GMT
I'm actually still stuck on that reveal that Jones was giving information to Aata. I still want to know what that was about. Huh, I forgot about that, so I had to look it up. Here it is. |
|
|
|
Post by Gemminie on Oct 13, 2021 15:50:10 GMT
Rather than pursuing the "useless machines" comment, Annie presses Aata on trying to steal Coyote's powers and sparks a wonderful interaction between Aata and Shell. Aata admits it, Shell is aghast that he's letting secrets slip, and he knows he's fired anyway, so he doesn't see the point in keeping secrets. He tells Shell that if she stuck with the rest of the Shadow Men, she could still salvage her career among them, but after considering for a moment, she indicates her refusal by sitting next to Aata. Her lot is thrown in with Aata, whatever happens to him. She still thinks the plan should have worked. So does Aata. And it probably would have, but there was more going on than they knew.
|
|
|
|
Post by mturtle7 on Oct 13, 2021 17:01:03 GMT
You know, my first instinct was to mock these two for thinking that the whole "stealing Coyote's powers" thing could still possibly be kept a secret...but then I realized, that whole operation happened REALLY FAST and wasn't at all clear in its motives or even results...at least, for everyone who didn't suddenly get put into a convenient bubble of stopped time and copious exposition. So people like, say, Eglamore might well SUSPECT that Aata was trying to steal Coyote's powers, given their prior knowledge, but it wasn't exactly obvious, and they certainly don't have proof of such a thing. So yeah, Aata spilling the beans here really is kind of a big deal - for him and Shell, at least. And the rest of the Shadow Men. |
|
|
|
Post by warrl on Oct 13, 2021 21:36:50 GMT
I suspect that if the plan had succeeded in stealing Coyote's power, they wouldn't much care who knew.
But since it failed, they may want to try again, and for that the fewer outsiders who know what they're up to the better.
|
|
|
|
Post by ctso74 on Oct 14, 2021 1:34:26 GMT
Good on you, Shell.
|
|
|
|
Post by maxptc on Oct 14, 2021 3:13:31 GMT
Well Atta, if you don't care about the Shadow Men at all anymore, I'll take some state secrets about the Omega Device as well, if you have them. Full original plan for the Renard thing as well if you don't mind.
It also just clicked for me that failure might be why Atta is gonna be fired, not for being magic.
|
|
|
|
Post by rafk on Oct 14, 2021 3:54:18 GMT
That they're still insisting after it failed that it SHOULD have worked is why it didn't work. If your thinking doesn't allow for the possibility you don't know everything even when it is made clear that you don't, you're always going to fail.
|
|
|
|
Post by drmemory on Oct 14, 2021 5:44:50 GMT
I'm kinda curious as to how they knew there would be an opening where they could throw their machine-stick-thing (Etherrod?) at Coyote. Did Annie share the details about what happened when she gave Loup the Goose Bone? Possibly - she did share a lot about the Loup encounter, to explain why there were elves at the gate, I just don't know if she told everyone the part about the Coyote manifestation. Then again, she probably saw no reason to not share it... The point is, they waited for Coyote to pop his head out before initiating their power theft operation. So I'm trying to understand how they knew so much detail about what was going to happen. What would they have done if Annie hadn't thrown the Lake Water just then, and allowed Loup to attack them? Maybe they didn't believe her about how easily angered he was? It almost seems like they had to have some precognition on their side, too (the Shadow Men side).
If they thought they could just throw the thing at Loup and steal Coyote's power, they could have done that while he was just sitting there, not focused on them.
Aata didn't panic and start things off when there was an angry god-like critter leaping at them, fangs a-slatherin'.
No, they waited until Loup was in mid-air and Coyote (or his memory) poked his head out, after Loup chomped the Lake Water. So how did they know this opportunity would arise?
I assume Aata's comment about Annie knowing Coyote was alive and not sharing that information was just him being a dick, as he clearly knew a lot more about what was going on than that. Heck, we know Annie told the court that Coyote was dead right after it happened!
|
|
|
|
Post by zbeeblebrox on Oct 14, 2021 8:08:10 GMT
I'm kinda curious as to how they knew there would be an opening where they could throw their machine-stick-thing (Etherrod?) at Coyote. Did Annie share the details about what happened when she gave Loup the Goose Bone? She likely explained the whole thing to the court after she got back, and we know the Shadow Men later studied the Coyote water after she located it, so they most certainly confirmed her story that these items contain Coyote memories. I'd speculate further that they couldn't pull ether from a dormant object, so they had to wait for Loup to take it and for it to activate, before trying their stunt. |
|
|
|
Post by fia on Oct 14, 2021 13:23:52 GMT
To be fair to Shell, Coyote did say it "almost" worked.
Wonder whether we'll ever be told anything about the mechanism or how Coyote overrode it. It did grab him etherically for a second, it looked like.
We know it involves antennas, so some sort of information capture? Or electromagnetic force? But evidently there's some unknown factors for the Court, maybe etheric, maybe chaos theory, maybe an uncertainty principle or two. I wonder what part of this Tony helped with and also why they were so sure about it.
Other thought – what if Aata is not Hindu or Buddhist, but a converted atheist or something? Or like a former Daoist? Maybe the Court's separation from the Forest was like a "cultural revolution". Just pondering what Tom's metaphor might be here. Probably best not to dig into it too realistically, nothing else is a straight parable for real life in Gunnerkrigg.
|
|
|
|
Post by DonDueed on Oct 14, 2021 14:57:44 GMT
To be fair to Shell, Coyote did say it "almost" worked. Wonder whether we'll ever be told anything about the mechanism or how Coyote overrode it. It did grab him etherically for a second, it looked like. We know it involves antennas, so some sort of information capture? Or electromagnetic force? Dunno, but I suspect Tesla was involved somehow.
(The inventor, not the car company.)
|
|
|
|
Post by drmemory on Oct 14, 2021 16:52:08 GMT
To be fair to Shell, Coyote did say it "almost" worked. Wonder whether we'll ever be told anything about the mechanism or how Coyote overrode it. It did grab him etherically for a second, it looked like. We know it involves antennas, so some sort of information capture? Or electromagnetic force? But evidently there's some unknown factors for the Court, maybe etheric, maybe chaos theory, maybe an uncertainty principle or two. I wonder what part of this Tony helped with and also why they were so sure about it. Other thought – what if Aata is not Hindu or Buddhist, but a converted atheist or something? Or like a former Daoist? Maybe the Court's separation from the Forest was like a "cultural revolution". Just pondering what Tom's metaphor might be here. Probably best not to dig into it too realistically, nothing else is a straight parable for real life in Gunnerkrigg. Remember, they originally wanted to bring the machine into the forest, and didn't because Annie told them machines weren't allowed. They were prepared for that, obviously, as they had a good Plan B in place with their Ether Rod Relay System (ERRS).
Maybe if the machine had been allowed, they would have needed only one Rod? Heck, maybe Annie actually saved Coyote by preventing the machine from being closer to Loup. It really did kinda seem like a race there, when Coyote said they almost got it.
No insight on the Aata thing. I'm not even sure he's human, and alive. The "beautiful failure" comment always made me think he was either created/constructed or was given his powers by some sort of experiment or plan. Maybe he started as a flower, or a tree, or just a willing test subject? Dunno.
|
|
|
|
Post by machiavelli33 on Oct 14, 2021 18:30:42 GMT
Why? Always the question is why.
In the end, always look to love.
|
|
|
|
Post by davidm on Oct 14, 2021 20:09:50 GMT
The robot shield wasn't useless, it bought time and likely saved a bunch of lives (including robot lives).
Loup started the recent war thanks to coyote. In this recent situation, court acted mostly in self defence.
Coyote also smashed tik tok to help with the false flag accusation to court in beginning of story, as a ruse to help plant the seeds that would help destroy much of court.
Then Loup sends his own citizens (elves) out of forest, a sort of ethnic cleansing, forcing court to help refugees.
Not saying shadow men are perfect but they have lots of grounds for the actions they are taking now... a gamble to take loups powers to stop loup, compared to a gamble that loup won't destroy everyone on a whim if they leave him alone. Shadow men didn't escort Annie's last trip and result was Loup massive unprovoked attack on court and half of Annie missing for months. So not unreasonable they would come this time.
If any of you lived next door to a madman with a working nuclear bomb who has already attacked you "to assert dominance" and destroyed much of your home and his allies are still actively attacking, you might similarly try to take away the nuke. The allies had less grounds to start a war with nazi germany (but not USSR) after both invaded poland... Hitler was hoping to work with Britain against the USSR, nazi's wanted at the time wanted to exile the jews to africa instead of kill them, they switched to killing when they lost war in africa. Put Loup in place of Hitler and bombs are already falling on Britain before Britain declares war in order to "assert dominance".
|
|
|
|
Post by saardvark on Oct 15, 2021 3:33:41 GMT
No insight on the Aata thing. I'm not even sure he's human, and alive. The "beautiful failure" comment always made me think he was either created/constructed or was given his powers by some sort of experiment or plan. Maybe he started as a flower, or a tree, or just a willing test subject? Dunno.
semi-Wildish-Spec: Aata's maybe the result an earlier attempt to steal or emulate Coyote power(s). Human, willing test subject, convinced of his plan and cause - to make himself a Demi-god to better offset Coyote's power. It was meant to leave him with a "scientific" power the Court could understand and use, but it was "corrupted" somehow (by Coyote? naturally?) and he ended up with an "etheric" flower-power healing ability that the Court doesnt understand and (hence) has forbidden him to use. His violation of that ban to protect and heal Shell is what threatens his ouster from the SM.... |
|
|
|
Post by drmemory on Oct 15, 2021 4:06:38 GMT
The robot shield wasn't useless, it bought time and likely saved a bunch of lives (including robot lives). Loup started the recent war thanks to coyote. In this recent situation, court acted mostly in self defence. Coyote also smashed tik tok to help with the false flag accusation to court in beginning of story, as a ruse to help plant the seeds that would help destroy much of court. Then Loup sends his own citizens (elves) out of forest, a sort of ethnic cleansing, forcing court to help refugees. Not saying shadow men are perfect but they have lots of grounds for the actions they are taking now... a gamble to take loups powers to stop loup, compared to a gamble that loup won't destroy everyone on a whim if they leave him alone. Shadow men didn't escort Annie's last trip and result was Loup massive unprovoked attack on court and half of Annie missing for months. So not unreasonable they would come this time. If any of you lived next door to a madman with a working nuclear bomb who has already attacked you "to assert dominance" and destroyed much of your home and his allies are still actively attacking, you might similarly try to take away the nuke. The allies had less grounds to start a war with nazi germany (but not USSR) after both invaded poland... Hitler was hoping to work with Britain against the USSR, nazi's wanted at the time wanted to exile the jews to africa instead of kill them, they switched to killing when they lost war in africa. Put Loup in place of Hitler and bombs are already falling on Britain before Britain declares war in order to "assert dominance". Agree about the robot shield not being useless. Aata clearly has some prejudices, and preconceived notions. I think he thinks of machines as useless in general, tools at best, and he's at least one of those in the court who finds bringing robots and humans closer to be unpalatable.
As for the rest, I just want to point out that they have always been after Coyote's powers, not Loup's. Aata even said that was what he was after with the current operation. I really don't remember Coyote being terribly threatening to the court at any point - he generally seems happy to watch the ants, and we've seen several hints that his current scheme all came about because of the things the court was trying to do. In short, I believe at least part of his plan is self-defense, much more so than Aata's plans.
Aata's plans, the current plan and apparently his part plans were meant to steal Coyote's powers and use them for things the court wants. He admitted this... Frankly, he didn't seem worried about Loup at all, even when Loup was attacking him, slavering jaws wide and eyes crazed! It's all about Coyote and his powers.
Even in the latest situation, Loup was pretty much just sitting around, meditating, trying to get control of the forest, when they came to him with their plans and their machines and all those uninvited people. To be fair, perhaps they were acting on a fear that he would do more stuff to the court, but he hadn't actually done it yet, and again, Aata wanted to steal Coyote's powers, specifically. Not assert dominance or whatever. If that's what you believe, then it is, I'm just pointing out that there is a lot of evidence that contradicts it.
I'm not taking the bait on your Nazi analogies. If I can resist comparing Aata to Himmler, I can resist this.  |
|
|
|
Post by madjack on Oct 15, 2021 4:07:46 GMT
No insight on the Aata thing. I'm not even sure he's human, and alive. The "beautiful failure" comment always made me think he was either created/constructed or was given his powers by some sort of experiment or plan. Maybe he started as a flower, or a tree, or just a willing test subject? Dunno.
semi-Wildish-Spec: Aata's maybe the result an earlier attempt to steal or emulate Coyote power(s). Human, willing test subject, convinced of his plan and cause - to make himself a Demi-god to better offset Coyote's power. It was meant to leave him with a "scientific" power the Court could understand and use, but it was "corrupted" somehow (by Coyote? naturally?) and he ended up with an "etheric" flower-power healing ability that the Court doesnt understand and (hence) has forbidden him to use. His violation of that ban to protect and heal Shell is what threatens his ouster from the SM.... Speculation like this makes me really worried about Aata meeting Robot someday. |
|
|
|
Post by drmemory on Oct 15, 2021 4:14:31 GMT
No insight on the Aata thing. I'm not even sure he's human, and alive. The "beautiful failure" comment always made me think he was either created/constructed or was given his powers by some sort of experiment or plan. Maybe he started as a flower, or a tree, or just a willing test subject? Dunno.
semi-Wildish-Spec: Aata's maybe the result an earlier attempt to steal or emulate Coyote power(s). Human, willing test subject, convinced of his plan and cause - to make himself a Demi-god to better offset Coyote's power. It was meant to leave him with a "scientific" power the Court could understand and use, but it was "corrupted" somehow (by Coyote? naturally?) and he ended up with an "etheric" flower-power healing ability that the Court doesnt understand and (hence) has forbidden him to use. His violation of that ban to protect and heal Shell is what threatens his ouster from the SM.... That seems as likely as anything.
One thing I've been puzzled by is how people get etheric powers. It is strictly genetic or what? Like we know a bit about Annie's mother's power and her Grandmother's, and quite a bit about hers, but they've all been somewhat different - stronger in some areas and weaker in others. Like Grandma was better with fire than Surma, and Surma was weak with fire but good with levitation and flying. So does this mean Aata had to be born with etheric powers?
Even if so, I have to think that only sets max potential. I'll be surprised if the court has figured out how to give etheric powers to someone that has no potential at all. We know Annie got better at using hers with training and practice but the only times we've seen powers actually change hands to someone that started out without them at all have been when Coyote handed them out. The fact that he can do that makes me wonder of course - is that a god thing, a Coyote-specific thing, or could, say, Annie give her flame powers to our Mecha goddess?
New theory on what's up with Annie - Loup split her in two, and each of them started with the same potential but only half the powers. Then each of them grew separately and used their powers, so when Zimmy merged them, they ended up with much more power - as much as double. Maybe?
|
|
|
|
Post by blahzor on Oct 15, 2021 9:13:19 GMT
If Aata is out, maybe this is an opportunity for Annie to gain extra knowledge? I'm actually still stuck on that reveal that Jones was giving information to Aata. I still want to know what that was about. now they know he's etheric he's going to ether jail like Rey was |
|
