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Post by magiekarp on Oct 8, 2021 7:16:15 GMT
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Post by madjack on Oct 8, 2021 7:25:53 GMT
So is 'for the safety of the Court' going to be Aata's justification for the latest de-powering plan?
A perfect time for Carver to put her foot in it and bring up Jeanne...
Edit: Also, panel one is amazing, Annie is childishly angry.
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Post by antiyonder on Oct 8, 2021 7:25:59 GMT
I think I can beat Tom at his game (taking the note at the bottom into mind).
You! Him! Donkey! KHAAAAAAN!!!
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Post by TBeholder on Oct 8, 2021 7:46:22 GMT
A perfect time for Carver to put her foot in it and bring up Jeanne... Edit: Also, panel one is amazing, Annie is childishly angry. Hmmm, no. A perfect time for Carver to stand back and watch the fireworks. There are other people who may want their turn at shouting, now that they are reminded at whom. If even the most-trusted and freshly healed Shell is somewhat shocked by this, the others are probably quite exasperated by all this. It looks like Aata held those cards closer to the chest than is customary per the Court’s standards of common conspiratorial secrecy. |
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Post by madjack on Oct 8, 2021 8:27:37 GMT
A perfect time for Carver to put her foot in it and bring up Jeanne... Edit: Also, panel one is amazing, Annie is childishly angry. Hmmm, no. A perfect time for Carver to stand back and watch the fireworks. There are other people who may want their turn at shouting, now that they are reminded at whom. If even the most-trusted and freshly healed Shell is somewhat shocked by this, the others are probably quite exasperated by all this. It looks like Aata held those cards closer to the chest than is customary per the Court’s standards of common conspiratorial secrecy. Perhaps. Very interested in what those cards actually are. I wouldn't be surprised if Aata knows a few things about the Court's murky history and Jeanne. Wildspec but perhaps this latest plan was implemented because they realised whatever defence was at the bottom of the ravine was gone somehow and as revealed today, didn't fully trust the shield. I do hope they squeeze the Shadow Men's purpose in general out of him, if not the Court's. |
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Post by Igniz on Oct 8, 2021 11:00:59 GMT
Whatever it was that Loup learned from the memory is what sent him over the edge, Shadow Men present or not. So, actually, Carver, it was Coyote's fault. And to a lesser degree, yours. I wouldn't be surprised if Aata knows a few things about the Court's murky history and Jeanne. [...]I do hope they squeeze the Shadow Men's purpose in general out of him, if not the Court's. +1  |
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Post by pyradonis on Oct 8, 2021 12:51:05 GMT
All Aata's fault? Loup was already attacking in rage. And what was the first thing that enraged him? Oh yes, it was Annie being one person again. And when did he decide to attack the other people there? Oh yes, it was after Annie told him he wouldn't hurt her. She's probably very happy Coyote claimed all this is Aata's fault, so she can repeat it and finally someone else is blamed instead of her. Meanwhile I stay convinced that most of this is actually Coyote's fault, but so far Annie seems unable to see what a massively manipulative bastard Coyote is.
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Post by ctso74 on Oct 8, 2021 13:23:28 GMT
Yikes, Carver. Considering your history, I'd be happy someone else is taking the Blame Spotlight, for the moment.
If Aata's removal shakes things up among the Shadow Men, Tony may be placed in a new position, that allows our protagonist to learn more about them.
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Post by ohthatone on Oct 8, 2021 13:55:51 GMT
Yeah, seems like there is a fair amount of blame to go around between annie, aata, coyote...you know who is really the innocent one here?
That's right.
Boxbot.
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Post by Gemminie on Oct 8, 2021 14:26:20 GMT
And now my usual unprimed reaction to today's page. Annie sees Aata sitting there just beyond Cvet, and she's evidently very angry with that guy. So angry that she charges through a small hole as if it's tall enough for her to just run through. Shell defends him, knowing more about the situation than Annie does, but there's no stopping Annie. With her recently-acquired knowledge that they're "under" the Court right now (I suspect that they're actually above the original ground level) and that Loup destroyed the robots' barrier, she accuses him of igniting all this destruction. This is news to Shell, and probably to Aata too, but Aata's probably preoccupied with other things. He focuses on the barrier thing: "we" always knew the barrier wouldn't hold if "Coyote" directly attacked.
A few things I noticed: He said "we." Who exactly is "we?" The shadowy Court management, which he's probably part of? Or does he just mean the Shadow Men – though that would be strange, considering how surprised Shell was? Also, he said "Coyote." Does he think Loup is really Coyote? Does he think this was an attack on the Court by Coyote? I mean, he's not completely wrong, because Loup's existence is all Coyote's doing, and Coyote primed Loup to attack the Court too.
And Aata completely ignores the fact that they're now within the Court, as well as Annie's accusation that he caused all of this. He probably ignored the first because she just confirmed a suspicion he already had. And he probably ignored her accusation because he either wants to distract from it or because he's going to explain more stuff soon (maybe next page). Or maybe both – perhaps Annie will press him on it, and he's going to explain that they were always going to try to steal Coyote's power, that Coyote's come to expect it, that it's part of the Court's regular interaction with Coyote, or maybe crazy stuff like (just listing some things that would be surprising if Aata said them) that Coyote's "died" before, the Court's successfully stolen Coyote's powers in the past, or the Court's future plans rely on stealing Coyote's powers.
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Post by aline on Oct 8, 2021 14:38:19 GMT
Whatever it was that Loup learned from the memory is what sent him over the edge, Shadow Men present or not. So, actually, Carver, it was Coyote's fault. And to a lesser degree, yours. That's your theory, not a fact. Coyote's aim was for Loup to be killed, he didn't need the Forest to explode. Obviously Coyote is not blame free in this, being responsible for Loup's existence in the first place. But that doesn't mean the shadow men's intervention didn't make things even worse. Aata knew perfectly well Loup could break the barrier, and he knew trying to steal Coyote's powers from him (the one thing Loup wanted most) was going to infuriate him. Aata can't not have known something like this had a high chance of happening. What he did was effectively a declaration of war against an angry god. And still he walked into it with zero plan B. Now that it did happen, he's... moping?  He absolutely deserves to be blamed for this debacle. As for Jeanne, I'm 100% sure Coyote could have dealt with her in hundreds of different ways whenever it pleased him. I said this before but I really doubt a ghost, even a really angry one, could stop a god who can cut into reality itself. He was happy to see a bunch of kids provide him with that opening, but you don't seriously think he couldn't have done it without them. |
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Post by rimwolf on Oct 8, 2021 14:43:59 GMT
All Aata's fault? Loup was already attacking in rage. And what was the first thing that enraged him? Oh yes, it was Annie being one person again. And when did he decide to attack the other people there? Oh yes, it was after Annie told him he wouldn't hurt her. This is blaming the victim. Loup abused her in the first place by splitting her in two, and loses it because she hasn't put up with it. "She made me do it, your honor, by defying my will." |
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Post by aline on Oct 8, 2021 15:01:14 GMT
Wildspec but perhaps this latest plan was implemented because they realised whatever defence was at the bottom of the ravine was gone somehow and as revealed today, didn't fully trust the shield. There's already been a lot of discussion about that, but it's been said they've been trying to steal Coyote's powers for a long time. It's unlikely they set up this new plan solely because of Jeanne's disapearance, Loup's appearance, or any other recent event. It's just the latest installment of a goal that they've been pursuing probably for centuries. |
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Post by mturtle7 on Oct 8, 2021 17:28:06 GMT
And now my usual unprimed reaction to today's page. Annie sees Aata sitting there just beyond Cvet, and she's evidently very angry with that guy. So angry that she charges through a small hole as if it's tall enough for her to just run through. Shell defends him, knowing more about the situation than Annie does, but there's no stopping Annie. With her recently-acquired knowledge that they're "under" the Court right now (I suspect that they're actually above the original ground level) and that Loup destroyed the robots' barrier, she accuses him of igniting all this destruction. This is news to Shell, and probably to Aata too, but Aata's probably preoccupied with other things. He focuses on the barrier thing: "we" always knew the barrier wouldn't hold if "Coyote" directly attacked. A few things I noticed: He said "we." Who exactly is "we?" The shadowy Court management, which he's probably part of? Or does he just mean the Shadow Men – though that would be strange, considering how surprised Shell was? Also, he said "Coyote." Does he think Loup is really Coyote? Does he think this was an attack on the Court by Coyote? I mean, he's not completely wrong, because Loup's existence is all Coyote's doing, and Coyote primed Loup to attack the Court too. And Aata completely ignores the fact that they're now within the Court, as well as Annie's accusation that he caused all of this. He probably ignored the first because she just confirmed a suspicion he already had. And he probably ignored her accusation because he either wants to distract from it or because he's going to explain more stuff soon (maybe next page). Or maybe both – perhaps Annie will press him on it, and he's going to explain that they were always going to try to steal Coyote's power, that Coyote's come to expect it, that it's part of the Court's regular interaction with Coyote, or maybe crazy stuff like (just listing some things that would be surprising if Aata said them) that Coyote's "died" before, the Court's successfully stolen Coyote's powers in the past, or the Court's future plans rely on stealing Coyote's powers. It's news to both Shell and Aata, but only Shell is actually surprised by the news, just to be clear. And I don't think that Aata is preoccupied with "other things", exactly...he's probably thinking about where everything went wrong, and what his role really was in this whole mess, which is precisely what Annie is talking about.
The Robot Shield was clearly prepared long before Loup showed up, and was intended as an anti-Coyote measure, just like that power-stealing relay apparatus. Aata's revealing here that a) he was one of those people involved in the Robot Shield's creation and b) he and the others involved knew all along that it would actually be kind of useless against a being like Coyote...but they implemented it, and allowed people to think it would keep them safe from Loup. Just the beginning of what I presume were Aata's many, many, sketchy decisions made "for the good of the Court" without the public's knowledge.
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Post by Isildur on Oct 8, 2021 17:36:24 GMT
Shell defends him, knowing more about the situation than Annie does, but there's no stopping Annie. Knowing other things, almost surely. "More"? Perhaps, but not necessarily. Exactly how much Shell knows about the current situation isn't clear, even if she knew more about her specific instructions in the lead-up to it. As far as I recall, it's not clear how high a rank she has or which of Aata's relevant deliberations she's privy to. She's surprised about their location even though Aata isn't, after all. With her recently-acquired knowledge that they're "under" the Court right now (I suspect that they're actually above the original ground level) and that Loup destroyed the robots' barrier, she accuses him of igniting all this destruction. The "under" word is actually what prompted me to pop in to this thread. I guess if she considers the new ground level to be the top of the deposited earth material (and the ground there to be Court area), their position could be considered to be "under the Court". Or perhaps the tunnels Annie crawled into with the creatures go lower than that ruined building a few pages back. Or maybe she just misspoke, because she automatically thought the word "under" when making her way through a sort of cave. Something that's puzzled me is: Wasn't the shielded region shown as being penetrated underground anyway? I've never fully understood what the barriers really accomplished, even going back to Jeanne. So what was really preventing Ysengrin from launching creatures (or even himself) over the canyon, back then? ("All aboard the Spruce GooseWolf!") Or why not burrow beneath the waters? Would Jeanne have slain anything underground or in the sky, and the bridge was the only thing that repelled her? (Then there's the whole issue of the wider geography of the Wood and the Court. Given the apparent impossibility of simply going around the headwaters or mouth of the Annan, they've seemed to be some sorts of infinite spaces extending without bound on either side of it.) Anyway, getting back to the current page, it continues to be striking how, for someone who went "completely crazy" (in Annie's words), Loup seems to have managed not to kill anyone with the tidal wave of earth and wood. |
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Post by flowsthead on Oct 8, 2021 19:14:43 GMT
All Aata's fault? Loup was already attacking in rage. And what was the first thing that enraged him? Oh yes, it was Annie being one person again. And when did he decide to attack the other people there? Oh yes, it was after Annie told him he wouldn't hurt her. She's probably very happy Coyote claimed all this is Aata's fault, so she can repeat it and finally someone else is blamed instead of her. Meanwhile I stay convinced that most of this is actually Coyote's fault, but so far Annie seems unable to see what a massive manipulative bastard Coyote is.
I think there is a big difference between the two types of anger we see. When he's pissed about Annie, he charges at someone. He's still acting a role. Loup, as shown in the later attack, doesn't need to charge since he's got magic powers galore. He charges because of the performative nature since he knows it will get a reaction out of Annie, which is what he wants. She was playing it too cool. He can get her upset by just threatening someone else, and she immediately throws the lake water to him, he turns around and consumes it. And it should be noted, Annie has never wanted other people to go with her, so their decision to be there, which also pisses off Loup, is 100% not Annie's fault. I'm not saying he's not angry about Annie, but again, big difference between that anger and the anger that wrecked the Court. I agree with you that this is all Coyote's fault and Annie has failed to see him as manipulative, but I think you're getting the motivations wrong. For one, Coyote is literally a force of nature. You don't get angry at the bees that sting you, you get angry at the guy next to you that poked the bee's nest with a stick. For two, Coyote is more powerful than the freaking Norns. Annie not being able to perceive his true personality or intentions is hardly her fault. Renard is probably incapable of the same. For three, I don't think Annie is looking to blame someone explicitly, as much as she was primed to blame Aata because of what Coyote said. |
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Post by blazingstar on Oct 8, 2021 19:23:32 GMT
All Aata's fault? Loup was already attacking in rage. And what was the first thing that enraged him? Oh yes, it was Annie being one person again. And when did he decide to attack the other people there? Oh yes, it was after Annie told him he wouldn't hurt her. She's probably very happy Coyote claimed all this is Aata's fault, so she can repeat it and finally someone else is blamed instead of her. Meanwhile I stay convinced that most of this is actually Coyote's fault, but so far Annie seems unable to see what a massive manipulative bastard Coyote is.
Aww, but it's so much more satisfying to pin the blame all on Aata, a mysterious sinister figure whom we know nothing about! This is a good time to bring up the fact that Annie is still a teenager and doesn't have a good handle on this whole "personal responsibility" thing yet. She's still in the "correcting all injustice in the world" phase of life, so she'll probably bring up Jeanne and how Aata was wrong to attack (which she's technically correct about). Ah, to be young again. |
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Post by todd on Oct 9, 2021 0:29:30 GMT
I think that figuring out a solution for the problem is more important than arguing over who's to blame. The obvious problem is that the only solution that's been presented so far is Annie killing Loup, which she's understandably reluctant to do.
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Post by mordekai on Oct 9, 2021 3:08:46 GMT
All Aata's fault? Loup was already attacking in rage. And what was the first thing that enraged him? Oh yes, it was Annie being one person again. And when did he decide to attack the other people there? Oh yes, it was after Annie told him he wouldn't hurt her. She's probably very happy Coyote claimed all this is Aata's fault, so she can repeat it and finally someone else is blamed instead of her. Meanwhile I stay convinced that most of this is actually Coyote's fault, but so far Annie seems unable to see what a massive manipulative bastard Coyote is.
1.-Annie was never given a choice either about being split into two or about becoming one again. That isn't on her.
2.-Loup was enraged when he saw Aata and the other men in black. If they weren't there, Annie would have defused the situation.
3.-Annie was trying to stop Loup's rage the only way she could when she told him he wouldn't hurt her. Neither Coyote nor Ysengrim respected people who beg for their lives, they respected people who stood their ground, so Annie had reasons to believe that facing Loup and showing fearlessness would be the best option. And anyways, Loup would have attacked no matter what she said.
4.-Yes, Coyote is the one most at fault. Followed by Ysengrim, and then Aata. Annie is FAAAAAAR below them in the fault scale.
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Post by pyradonis on Oct 9, 2021 11:41:04 GMT
All Aata's fault? Loup was already attacking in rage. And what was the first thing that enraged him? Oh yes, it was Annie being one person again. And when did he decide to attack the other people there? Oh yes, it was after Annie told him he wouldn't hurt her. This is blaming the victim. Loup abused her in the first place by splitting her in two, and loses it because she hasn't put up with it. "She made me do it, your honor, by defying my will." All Aata's fault? Loup was already attacking in rage. And what was the first thing that enraged him? Oh yes, it was Annie being one person again. And when did he decide to attack the other people there? Oh yes, it was after Annie told him he wouldn't hurt her. She's probably very happy Coyote claimed all this is Aata's fault, so she can repeat it and finally someone else is blamed instead of her. Meanwhile I stay convinced that most of this is actually Coyote's fault, but so far Annie seems unable to see what a massive manipulative bastard Coyote is.
I think there is a big difference between the two types of anger we see. When he's pissed about Annie, he charges at someone. He's still acting a role. Loup, as shown in the later attack, doesn't need to charge since he's got magic powers galore. He charges because of the performative nature since he knows it will get a reaction out of Annie, which is what he wants. She was playing it too cool. He can get her upset by just threatening someone else, and she immediately throws the lake water to him, he turns around and consumes it. And it should be noted, Annie has never wanted other people to go with her, so their decision to be there, which also pisses off Loup, is 100% not Annie's fault. I'm not saying he's not angry about Annie, but again, big difference between that anger and the anger that wrecked the Court. I agree with you that this is all Coyote's fault and Annie has failed to see him as manipulative, but I think you're getting the motivations wrong. For one, Coyote is literally a force of nature. You don't get angry at the bees that sting you, you get angry at the guy next to you that poked the bee's nest with a stick. For two, Coyote is more powerful than the freaking Norns. Annie not being able to perceive his true personality or intentions is hardly her fault. Renard is probably incapable of the same. For three, I don't think Annie is looking to blame someone explicitly, as much as she was primed to blame Aata because of what Coyote said. All Aata's fault? Loup was already attacking in rage. And what was the first thing that enraged him? Oh yes, it was Annie being one person again. And when did he decide to attack the other people there? Oh yes, it was after Annie told him he wouldn't hurt her. She's probably very happy Coyote claimed all this is Aata's fault, so she can repeat it and finally someone else is blamed instead of her. Meanwhile I stay convinced that most of this is actually Coyote's fault, but so far Annie seems unable to see what a massive manipulative bastard Coyote is.
1.-Annie was never a choice either about being split into two or about becoming one again. That isn't on her. 2.-Loup was enraged when he saw Aata and the other men in black. If they weren't there, Annie would have defused the situation. 3.-Annie was trying to stop Loup's rage the only way she could when she told him he wouldn't hurt her. Neither Coyote nor Ysengrim respected people who beg for their lives, they respected people who stood their ground, so Annie had reasons to believe that facing Loup and showing fearlessness would be the best option. And anyways, Loup would have attacked no matter what she said. 4.-Yes, Coyote is the one most at fault. Followed by Ysengrim, and then Aata. Annie is FAAAAAAR below them in the fault scale. I probably should have formulated my post differently, and not so late at night. I did not intend to say this is all Annie's fault (as said, I think it's mostly Coyote's). However I personally don't feel Annie did well in defusing the situation. The way I understood those pages, what she said to Loup only served to provoke him more. 1. She claimed she "took matters in her own hands" to un-split herself, which isn't even true,basically she accidentally got un-split by Zimmy. 2. She criticized him and guilted him about how he treated the tree elves, only then did he attack. Yes, it was all true what she said to him, but was it necessary in this already tense situation? I don't think so.
About whether people are able to see through Coyote, why shouldn't those who know him? Renard doesn't really seem to see Coyote as a deity. He called him "my foolish cousin" the first time he spoke of him in-comic, called him out on his tricks and schemes the first time they met in-comic and clearly remembers how Coyote goaded him into using the possession power on a human. I think Renard simply blames himself for Daniel's death, because he is aware that, even if Coyote gave him a metaphorical gun and told him he could not be sure the bullet would kill Daniel, Renard was the one who ultimately pulled the trigger. It's a bit more difficlt for Annie, as we readers are privy to more things than her, but there are a lot of things she knows and should be able to put together. Like Coyote telling her "Let's see if you're so eager to ride on [Ysengrin's] arm after today!" immediately before the latter attacks her in a murderous rage of which he later has no memory (like of many other times). Hmmmmm..... Then there's Coyote destroying the tic-toc, all that she learned about Coyote's various manipulations of others to achieve his goal of experiencing death, and ultimately Coyote telling her he made up a great plan which involves Annie having no other choice but to kill Loup. Shouldn't that be enough to realize who Coyote really is? The longer I think about this the more I feel that Annie does not lack in knowledge or understanding. She just does not want Coyote to be a bad guy. Which incidentally also fits how she does not care how many of her loved ones she loves have almost killed her at least once.
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Post by flowsthead on Oct 9, 2021 15:06:20 GMT
I probably should have formulated my post differently, and not so late at night. I did not intend to say this is all Annie's fault (as said, I think it's mostly Coyote's). However I personally don't feel Annie did well in defusing the situation. The way I understood those pages, what she said to Loup only served to provoke him more. 1. She claimed she "took matters in her own hands" to un-split herself, which isn't even true,basically she accidentally got un-split by Zimmy. 2. She criticized him and guilted him about how he treated the tree elves, only then did he attack. Yes, it was all true what she said to him, but was it necessary in this already tense situation? I don't think so.
About whether people are able to see through Coyote, why shouldn't those who know him? Renard doesn't really seem to see Coyote as a deity. He called him "my foolish cousin" the first time he spoke of him in-comic, called him out on his tricks and schemes the first time they met in-comic and clearly remembers how Coyote goaded him into using the possession power on a human. I think Renard simply blames himself for Daniel's death, because he is aware that, even if Coyote gave him a metaphorical gun and told him he could not be sure the bullet would kill Daniel, Renard was the one who ultimately pulled the trigger. It's a bit more difficlt for Annie, as we readers are privy to more things than her, but there are a lot of things she knows and should be able to put together. Like Coyote telling her "Let's see if you're so eager to ride on [Ysengrin's] arm after today!" immediately before the latter attacks her in a murderous rage of which he later has no memory (like of many other times). Hmmmmm..... Then there's Coyote destroying the tic-toc, all that she learned about Coyote's various manipulations of others to achieve his goal of experiencing death, and ultimately Coyote telling her he made up a great plan which involves Annie having no other choice but to kill Loup. Shouldn't that be enough to realize who Coyote really is? The longer I think about this the more I feel that Annie does not lack in knowledge or understanding. She just does not want Coyote to be a bad guy. Which incidentally also fits how she does not care how many of her loved ones she loves have almost killed her at least once.
Ehh, I see what you're saying about Annie not provoking Loup, but honestly nothing she says matters when dealing with a god-like entity. At minimum taking matters into her own hands is a way to not involve Zimmy in this. She's also criticized every other god-like figure without this kind of response. Loup doesn't split her because he's pissed, remember, he does it just because he felt like it. I don't know, I could go either way on that one. The second paragraph I disagree with more. What Renard calls Coyote has nothing to do with what Coyote is. Renard is less interested in Coyote than humanity, but that doesn't mean Coyote isn't powerful. Think about all of the things that Coyote knew about at any point in the story, including the Omega Device, that Renard has no concept of. And Annie did put together some of it, next chapter she and Jones talked about Coyote manipulating Ysengrin. But the extent of that is something Annie couldn't possibly know, and Jones puts it in a way that Annie doesn't focus on it, as a lesson to be learned that Coyote was trying to teach her. Also, I was under the impression that Kat and Annie didn't see Coyote destroying the tic-toc, hence Kat asking what happened. I do agree with you that Annie's empathetic to the point that it is sometimes actively harmful to her own wellbeing, and Coyote is an example of this. But it's also the case that based on what she knows Coyote doesn't do anything that isn't representative of himself. Coyote doesn't pretend to be good, even if he is good towards her. It's hard to see Coyote as an out and out bad guy considering the Court has seemed much more nefarious overall, and some of the key things that Coyote has done Annie hasn't seen. She knows that Coyote manipulated Ysengrin into attacking her, but she doesn't see that moment where Coyote cradles and robs Ysengrin of his memories. Some things are much easier to rationalize away if you don't see them. As everyone always says, Coyote doesn't lie, and that fact alone makes it easier for someone like Annie to trust him. It would be one thing for Coyote to manipulate Annie into killing Loup and then Annie finding out, but because he tells her and she knows that's what he's like, she can rationalize that away. Annie's traumas plays a factor in how she reacts in many of these situations, and it's difficult for me to blame her explicitly as she is often the victim of these manipulations. That she is smart enough to see past it is almost irrelevant to being manipulated. |
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Post by Polyhymnia on Oct 10, 2021 1:02:48 GMT
Strange to see Aata so gloomy. Logical and expected, but strange after seeing his smug grin all this time.
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Post by maxptc on Oct 10, 2021 5:36:58 GMT
Well yeah, but that's kind of a gross oversimplification Annie.
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Post by drmemory on Oct 11, 2021 0:05:32 GMT
All Aata's fault? Loup was already attacking in rage. And what was the first thing that enraged him? Oh yes, it was Annie being one person again. And when did he decide to attack the other people there? Oh yes, it was after Annie told him he wouldn't hurt her. She's probably very happy Coyote claimed all this is Aata's fault, so she can repeat it and finally someone else is blamed instead of her. Meanwhile I stay convinced that most of this is actually Coyote's fault, but so far Annie seems unable to see what a massively manipulative bastard Coyote is.
Aata planned the operation to steal Coyote's power, obtained the technology, and wouldn't let Annie take the lake water to Loup until he was ready to initiate his plan. Loup might have been angry if Annie showed up on her own (as one person) to return the lake water, but things certainly escalated due to all those extra people being brought into his forest! He wouldn't even have hurt her if it was only her. Also, just to point out a bit more about Aata's role in all of this, he waited until Coyote popped out of Loup's head before saying "Now" and starting things off. How the heck did he know so much about that? Is there any way he didn't know Coyote would appear when the lake water was returned? I have to think the attack was planned to take place specifically when Coyote popped out. Shell knew to aim for the Coyote-head! Honestly, it was a pretty well-planned operation, and it almost worked. I imagine if it had worked, Loup would have been depowered and the shadow men would have trundled off with the power and let the forest die. Aata knew far too much about what exactly would happen when the lake water was returned for my taste.
I can't see blaming Annie for this nor letting Aata off the hook.
That being said, this is all Coyote's scheme in the end, and we really don't know how much detail he knew about what would happen, nor just how much he manipulated said detail.
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Post by drmemory on Oct 11, 2021 0:14:21 GMT
All Aata's fault? Loup was already attacking in rage. And what was the first thing that enraged him? Oh yes, it was Annie being one person again. And when did he decide to attack the other people there? Oh yes, it was after Annie told him he wouldn't hurt her. She's probably very happy Coyote claimed all this is Aata's fault, so she can repeat it and finally someone else is blamed instead of her. Meanwhile I stay convinced that most of this is actually Coyote's fault, but so far Annie seems unable to see what a massive manipulative bastard Coyote is.
1.-Annie was never a choice either about being split into two or about becoming one again. That isn't on her.
2.-Loup was enraged when he saw Aata and the other men in black. If they weren't there, Annie would have defused the situation.
3.-Annie was trying to stop Loup's rage the only way she could when she told him he wouldn't hurt her. Neither Coyote nor Ysengrim respected people who beg for their lives, they respected people who stood their ground, so Annie had reasons to believe that facing Loup and showing fearlessness would be the best option. And anyways, Loup would have attacked no matter what she said.
4.-Yes, Coyote is the one most at fault. Followed by Ysengrim, and then Aata. Annie is FAAAAAAR below them in the fault scale.
1. Totally agree. None of this was her. She wasn't even all that unhappy with the split. Didn't she say something about it feeling almost like losing a sister?
2. Agreed. The only thing I noticed her say that wasn't good was the comment about taking things into her hands, which really wasn't true - Zimmy did it, and didn't ask first! Maybe she was trying to keep Zimmy out of things there?
3. And then she threw him the lake water in a last-ditch effort to head off his attack, literally in mid-leap. Nice try, Carver.
4. That seems about right. I forgot about the Ysengrin factor - he still seems to be the dominant force behind Loup's reactions to things. I'm really wondering about whether Coyote specifically planned Aata's role for him. He knew Aata, and knows far more about his failed cousin than we do, I just don't know if he manipulated him specifically into this complicated series of events or if just returning the lake water would have been enough to kick things off. Like was the attack on the shadow men necessary? What about Loup letting go of the forest? I bet Coyote's plots are more like N-dimensional graphs than straight lines.  |
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Post by mordekai on Oct 13, 2021 16:37:51 GMT
It's a bit more difficlt for Annie, as we readers are privy to more things than her, but there are a lot of things she knows and should be able to put together. Like Coyote telling her "Let's see if you're so eager to ride on [Ysengrin's] arm after today!" immediately before the latter attacks her in a murderous rage of which he later has no memory (like of many other times). Hmmmmm..... Then there's Coyote destroying the tic-toc, all that she learned about Coyote's various manipulations of others to achieve his goal of experiencing death, and ultimately Coyote telling her he made up a great plan which involves Annie having no other choice but to kill Loup. Shouldn't that be enough to realize who Coyote really is? The longer I think about this the more I feel that Annie does not lack in knowledge or understanding. She just does not want Coyote to be a bad guy. Which incidentally also fits how she does not care how many of her loved ones she loves have almost killed her at least once.
I can't see how Annie's opinion on Coyote changes anything that is happening. Even if she acknowledges that he is an insane, evil monster... what then? she can't do anything about that; Coyote isn't even alive anymore... All she can do is to handle Loup the best she is able to... |
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Post by pyradonis on Oct 27, 2021 15:03:39 GMT
It's a bit more difficlt for Annie, as we readers are privy to more things than her, but there are a lot of things she knows and should be able to put together. Like Coyote telling her "Let's see if you're so eager to ride on [Ysengrin's] arm after today!" immediately before the latter attacks her in a murderous rage of which he later has no memory (like of many other times). Hmmmmm..... Then there's Coyote destroying the tic-toc, all that she learned about Coyote's various manipulations of others to achieve his goal of experiencing death, and ultimately Coyote telling her he made up a great plan which involves Annie having no other choice but to kill Loup. Shouldn't that be enough to realize who Coyote really is? The longer I think about this the more I feel that Annie does not lack in knowledge or understanding. She just does not want Coyote to be a bad guy. Which incidentally also fits how she does not care how many of her loved ones she loves have almost killed her at least once.
I can't see how Annie's opinion on Coyote changes anything that is happening. Even if she acknowledges that he is an insane, evil monster... what then? she can't do anything about that; Coyote isn't even alive anymore... All she can do is to handle Loup the best she is able to... No, it doesn't change anything of what is happening, but she might not be so quick to claim all is Aata's fault alone. That's all I was originally talking about. |
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