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Post by hp on Jul 23, 2021 15:11:38 GMT
Gillitie Wood indeed had no "ruler" before Coyote arrived at the time the Court and the animals/faeries/elves were having a row because of the Court encroaching more and more on the woods and trying to "tame" the animals there. Coyote, in his magnificent humbleness provided a solution by making the ravine and proclaiming himself King-God-Emperor-Dancemaster of Gillitie and its' denizens. Ysengrin, Reynard and the Shadow people followed soon after. Was it like that, tho? In Coyote's "prequel" comic Rey is looking at "ants" ("ants? I call these things humans"). Ysengrim is dismissive and drags his paw across their trail, and Coyote gets majorly angry and bites his ear off for that. Coyote then offers Rey power to do with the humans as he pleases, but Rey refuses.Then Coyote looks over a ridge and finds the Court. He calls Rey to look at it and just draws a line in the sand, saying that will keep them from interfering with them.
The story is narrated in an allegoric way, so the facts seem to be told simbolically rather than straightly as they happened. But the way that line in the sand is presented, it seems it was created as a self-imposed limit to keep them from meddling with the Court, rather than some measure to protect the forest from the Court
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Post by bicarbonat on Jul 23, 2021 15:11:55 GMT
Holy smokes, he's a real piece of work, isn't he, what with the laughter (incidentally, he implies that Annie's guide status won't be affected by the murder, although he lies all the time, so who knows) and the confirmation that Annie will actually kill not 'just' the intelligent being she dislikes (still traumatic, but maybe if it's a 'to save my friends' situation, she at least has some way to rationalise it), but also two other intelligent beings that she actually even likes (one of whom was manipulated and tortured for centuries). Coyote is looking more and more evil by the page - I'm now really hoping that the Court has some back up plan for the capture, just to wipe that smile off his face. I think that Coyote uses this callously, jovially strident approach on everyone, including himself. He wanted Ysengrin to drop his tough facade and accelerate his closeness with Annie, so he: 1) tricked Annie into seeing Ysengrin without his wood armor; 2) denigrated Ysengrin enough times (culminating in the time he asked Annie for a story) that she had an outburst and defended Ysengrin; and 3) arranges Ysengrin as her escort and tutor in the Forest Not to mention all of the unhesitating mind manipulation Coyote's done to Ysengrin. He shifts them around as if they are himself - which is honestly a lot like the Court handling its servants and its people however it likes [see: robots and Jeanne]. And why does the Court do that? To repel the Forest and keep them from interfering with their plans for advancement. Switch the word "Forest" for "Court," and you've probably got the same answer for Coyote. Add a dash of "Coyote is ether shaped by Man + Man returns to the ether," and it's giving very Tyler Durden/Sebastian vibes. |
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Post by hp on Jul 23, 2021 15:19:32 GMT
BTW, I wonder if Coyote's extra comic can hint at his motivations for his actions in GK's main plot. He's shown as dismissive towards Ysengrim and intrigued when he describes Reynardine as cunning and deceptive, saying he'd be perfect for his pack. He enlists Y to help him find Rey, attacks Y after he messes with the "ants" Rey is watching. He offers Rey power to interfere in humans affairs, then calls him to watch the Court with him.
Wonder if Coyote's actions are still within his curiousness about Rey and the attempts to lure him into his "pack"
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Post by CoyoteReborn on Jul 23, 2021 15:19:34 GMT
Keep in mind, no one managed to get Jeanne to go to the Other Side. You think Coyote would be an easier case? He probably wants to, but the ROTD or the other psychopomps might refuse him entrance to the ether. They might try  |
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Post by alevice on Jul 23, 2021 16:16:15 GMT
Hi there was a chapter dedicated about how much I have grown up and have deeloped self agency after a magic merge of my two selves.
I am now le sad that a memory from adesd guy is telling me to kill so eon and seems i have no agency over myself anymore
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Post by keef on Jul 23, 2021 16:26:15 GMT
Oh no!
A sad face!
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Post by Gemminie on Jul 23, 2021 17:06:45 GMT
Time remains frozen, and Coyote has just told Annie that his plan involves her killing Loup with the dagger he gave her. Needless to say, Annie's pretty shocked. Probably quite important is the fact that Coyote says this is the final step in his plan. He also says "You cannot simply return it to him, he must be killed with it!" That has a lot of possible meanings. "You" could mean that someone else could return it to him. "Cannot" could mean that there's something about Annie that wouldn't permit this, or something about the dagger, or something about Loup, but he specifically doesn't say "must not," although he says "must" later in the same run-on sentence. I suppose he could still just mean that the plan won't work unless she kills him with it, rather than that something weird would happen if she tried to just give it to him. He also says "he must be killed with it," which by itself means that anyone could do it. But clearly he means for Annie to do it.
Annie's understandably shocked, asking why she has to do it – Coyote's already answered why it has to be done at all; it's part of his plan, so that's that. There's no explaining Coyote. But he replies, "Who better a steward of death than a guide of death?" Well, Annie is sort of a guide of death; she's guided some souls into the Ether. But what's a steward of death? I mean, a steward is a caretaker, a manager of someone else's property, but it can also be an attendant, or one who ensures food supplies are stocked. "Welcome to Antimony Airlines! I'll be your slayer today, ensuring your trip to the Afterlife is pleasant, smooth, and, most importantly, one-way." It's a strange way to put it. He goes on to say that when Loup dies, Coyote and Ysengrin will die as well, so he seems to want to ensure that Annie's the one-stop death shop – he wants her to be the one to take them into the Ether in addition to being the one to kill them.
Coyote also specifically says that Annie's to use the dagger to pierce Loup's heart. No decapitation or death by a thousand cuts. And hey, Coyote may want to die, and Loup may be working his way toward accepting his impending death, but Ysengrin never asked to die. How's this fair to him at all? Last time we spoke to Ysengrin, he said he'd made a mistake in killing Coyote. He was manipulated into it. Coyote also uses the phrase "truly killing," meaning that it would be a real, final death.
And then, with Annie looking despondent at this fate that has been decided for her, Coyote says yet another line that's open to interpretation, "When it is done you will know what to do, but not how to do it. I leave all that in your hands." Now, "when it is done" sounds like he means "after it is done," meaning that he could be talking about what Annie should do after she kills Loup/them. Likely what she'll be facing is the souls of Coyote, Loup, and Ysengrin. She will know what to do: take them into the Ether. But how to do it may be unclear. Coyote will want to go, since all this seems to be part of his plan. Loup doesn't seem to want to die yet, or at least he didn't a while ago, but it seems as if he's been pondering the possibility that Coyote's plan might be for him to die. I'm not sure what Ysengrin would want. She may have some unwilling and very powerful souls on her hands. That may be the meaning of "but not how to do it."
There's also the possibility that "when it is done" means "as it is done," which could also work – she'll know she has to kill Loup, but not how to do it. I consider this a less likely interpretation, but it's possible.
I think Annie might just refuse to kill Loup. I don't think she wants to, especially now that she knows Coyote and Ysengrin will die for real if she does, but I don't think she wanted to kill Loup anyway. She found him untrustworthy and threatening, but given a way to kill him would that mean she'd want to? I'm not sure. But now that she knows Coyote and Ysengrin will permanently die if she kills Loup, I'm pretty sure she won't want to do it. There would have to be some sort of emergency situation in which she had no choice, such as if Loup were about to kill someone she cared about – like Parley or James, who are present (but the dagger isn't, although Renard usually has it and may be able to send it to her over their link), or Kat, the Donlans, or her dad, who aren't present (there's no reason to assume this will happen immediately). I don't think she gives a fig about Aata, Shell, or the other Shadow Men present.
So I don't think we'll see the conclusion of Coyote's plan in this chapter. And I also doubt that when it does happen it'll be the end of the comic; there'll be consequences. It may be that when she kills Loup (I don't think she'll want to do it, but I think it'll happen sooner or later) and takes at least one of Loup/Coyote/Ysengrin into the Ether, the psychopomps may show up and tell her that now that she's taken a god into the Ether, she's a full-fledged spirit guide.
Anyway, enough speculation; time to read other people's reactions, which I've avoided until now.
[Edit after reading others' reactions: I'm not sure where I got the idea that Annie would be facing the three souls of Loup, Coyote, and Ysengrin after she killed them – perhaps from the artwork on this page – but it seems more likely to me that she'd just be facing the soul of Loup and trying to figure out how to get him to go into the Ether. Although ... there are those Coyote and Ysengrin totems in the Forest. What are those for?]
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Post by Gemminie on Jul 23, 2021 17:26:38 GMT
Who was in charge before coyote came to the forest? Ysengrin? Rey? I guess Rey would be the more likely choice to assume the role (assuming the forest truly cant exist without some kind of deity to keep it all running). Which would explain why coyote really wants him back in the forest. Those three came together to Gillitie Woods so if someone was in charge before Coyote, it wouldn't have been Rey or Ysengrin. But my guess is, no one. It's a magical forest, it doesn't necessarily need a system of government. That's my vote. I don't think it had or needed anyone to run or even protect the place, because it had nobody it needed protection from. Then the Court came along, and it needed protection. Instead it got Coyote, who protected the Forest, I suppose, but capriciously, and for his own inscrutable goals. Loup's been doing a terrible job of protecting the Forest; when he's gone the Court will probably try to just annex the land and take it for themselves. Or they'll just ignore it, but Court technology will probably destroy it over time. From what I see, the Forest needs protection as long as the Court is there. |
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Post by shadow3 on Jul 23, 2021 19:05:11 GMT
I wonder if the Ether is a much larger thing than revealed, and theres a reason why Coyote wants to go there alongside Ysengrin, guided by Annie into the Afterlife side of it.
The Buddha reveal also seems to go along with the theme.
How can Man become God if Man does not control both the worlds of life and death?
Hmm...
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Post by pyradonis on Jul 23, 2021 19:15:26 GMT
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Post by bedinsis on Jul 23, 2021 19:58:13 GMT
Guys, can't we at least wait for the next page before angrily declaring that Annie has already accepted the task? Posters reacting to the latest page by immediately jumping to conclusions of where it is going? Why I never! |
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Post by Gemminie on Jul 23, 2021 21:27:50 GMT
Prediction for the next page: Either Coyote's going to give Annie a reason to follow through with this plan of his, or Annie's going to say no to it.
One thing Coyote might say is that there are totems prepared for himself and Ysengrin in the Forest, ready to hold their souls (essences, life forces, what have you) once Loup is dead. Annie would thus know what to do (Coyote's and Ysengrin's souls must go into their totems) but not how to do it (they're still combined into Loup). That would give Annie an incentive – she could save Ysengrin.
Or perhaps Annie might remember those totems herself, perhaps with a hint from Coyote, to make it seem to her as if she'd thought of it herself.
Of course Coyote might have other reasons why Annie would want to go along with his plan. But that's something I thought of that fits the "you will know what to do, but not how to do it" statement.
Or Coyote won't give her any such incentive, and Annie will just say no, she won't do it, and Coyote can shove his horrible plan where the sun don't shine. I see no reason why she'd follow this course of action. She looks pretty sad on this page, but I think that's because she's realizing that all this time Coyote hasn't been her friend at all; he's just been setting her up to kill his mad successor.
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Post by lurkerbot on Jul 23, 2021 23:39:41 GMT
I am surprised. I fully expected Annie to outright refuse. Instead she seems to resign herself to the task. I totally agree - I am baffled by her apparent despair (which I don't recall seeing depicted to this extent before) instead of a more-expected angry outburst of outrage and rejection of Coyote's assignment. I really feel like I'm not understanding something fundamental here. Or... Or Coyote won't give her any such incentive, and Annie will just say no, she won't do it, and Coyote can shove his horrible plan where the sun don't shine. I see no reason why she'd follow this course of action. She looks pretty sad on this page, but I think that's because she's realizing that all this time Coyote hasn't been her friend at all; he's just been setting her up to kill his mad successor. Perhaps this is what I'm missing as this plausible interpretation had not occurred to me. |
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Post by todd on Jul 24, 2021 0:26:55 GMT
That's my vote. I don't think it had or needed anyone to run or even protect the place, because it had nobody it needed protection from. Then the Court came along, and it needed protection. Instead it got Coyote, who protected the Forest, I suppose, but capriciously, and for his own inscrutable goals. Loup's been doing a terrible job of protecting the Forest; when he's gone the Court will probably try to just annex the land and take it for themselves. Or they'll just ignore it, but Court technology will probably destroy it over time. From what I see, the Forest needs protection as long as the Court is there. After the recent troubles with Gillitie Wood, I think that the Court would take full advantage of the Forest no longer having a ruler (particularly someone as formidable as Coyote or Loup) to settle the place permanently; in its eyes, the inhabitants will be forever categorized into the monsters that attacked the Court (like the Ashray and the Wisps). With a tone, presumably, of "We can't afford to spend time carefully examining each individual Forest creature to tell whether it means us any harm or not. Deal with them all, then cut all the trees down and sow the place with salt, to make certain." It probably wouldn't go down with the tree elves or with the students who used to be forest-folk, but I doubt the Court would bother listening to their objections. |
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Post by liminal on Jul 24, 2021 3:51:45 GMT
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Post by arf on Jul 24, 2021 5:03:24 GMT
The further reveal in Coyote's Plan is certainly been causing some discussion!
I'm wondering where Rey fits in, and how he's going to react when he's told. What about his 'gift'? If the rebirth theory holds, it would be ironic if human loving Rey's left in charge of the Forest while Coyote and misanthropic Ys go off to enrol in Foley.
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Post by warrl on Jul 24, 2021 17:25:27 GMT
I am surprised. I fully expected Annie to outright refuse. Instead she seems to resign herself to the task. I totally agree - I am baffled by her apparent despair (which I don't recall seeing depicted to this extent before) instead of a more-expected angry outburst of outrage and rejection of Coyote's assignment. I really feel like I'm not understanding something fundamental here. Or... Or Coyote won't give her any such incentive, and Annie will just say no, she won't do it, and Coyote can shove his horrible plan where the sun don't shine. I see no reason why she'd follow this course of action. She looks pretty sad on this page, but I think that's because she's realizing that all this time Coyote hasn't been her friend at all; he's just been setting her up to kill his mad successor. Perhaps this is what I'm missing as this plausible interpretation had not occurred to me. I would add that maybe she thinks that no matter what she says, Coyote will manipulate things until what he wants her to do becomes her only viable course of action. |
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Post by mturtle7 on Jul 24, 2021 19:45:51 GMT
Gillitie Wood indeed had no "ruler" before Coyote arrived at the time the Court and the animals/faeries/elves were having a row because of the Court encroaching more and more on the woods and trying to "tame" the animals there. Coyote, in his magnificent humbleness provided a solution by making the ravine and proclaiming himself King-God-Emperor-Dancemaster of Gillitie and its' denizens. Ysengrin, Reynard and the Shadow people followed soon after. Was it like that, tho? In Coyote's "prequel" comic Rey is looking at "ants" ("ants? I call these things humans"). Ysengrim is dismissive and drags his paw across their trail, and Coyote gets majorly angry and bites his ear off for that. Coyote then offers Rey power to do with the humans as he pleases, but Rey refuses.Then Coyote looks over a ridge and finds the Court. He calls Rey to look at it and just draws a line in the sand, saying that will keep them from interfering with them.
The story is narrated in an allegoric way, so the facts seem to be told simbolically rather than straightly as they happened. But the way that line in the sand is presented, it seems it was created as a self-imposed limit to keep them from meddling with the Court, rather than some measure to protect the forest from the Court
Hot take: Coyote drew an arbitrary line in the Forest to separate his new home from whatever the Court humans were doing with the Seed Bismuth. Later, he realizes there's all these other animals in his new home who were apparently engaged in brutal, all-out war against the Court humans, and Coyote's arbitrary line has effectively forced a cease-fire between the sides. Coyote is quite happy to insist that this was his plan all along, and continues to say so in the centuries to come. |
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Post by saardvark on Jul 25, 2021 0:19:49 GMT
I'm wondering where Rey fits in, and how he's going to react when he's told. What about his 'gift'? If the rebirth theory holds, it would be ironic if human loving Rey's left in charge of the Forest while Coyote and misanthropic Ys go off to enrol in Foley. ... which would of course successfully accomplish Coyote's long held desire to have Rey rejoin the Forest! I don't think Ys will much like being a Foley student though. Coyote will like the change at first (being a human, maybe with Coyote-ish features, just like jackelope boy retained "horned" hair). He would quickly get deathly bored though, and set about doing mischief. So I don't think it will happen this way.... the Court won't want to "resurrect" the troublesome Forest gods anyway. Instead, I think Annie will take the totems to Kat. who will mod her robo-humanoid tanks to do a similar trick on Ys and Coy-man. |
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Post by maxptc on Jul 25, 2021 1:50:27 GMT
I'm wondering where Rey fits in, and how he's going to react when he's told. What about his 'gift'? If the rebirth theory holds, it would be ironic if human loving Rey's left in charge of the Forest while Coyote and misanthropic Ys go off to enrol in Foley. ... which would of course successfully accomplish Coyote's long held desire to have Rey rejoin the Forest! I don't think Ys will much like being a Foley student though. Coyote will like the change at first (being a human, maybe with Coyote-ish features, just like jackelope boy retained "horned" hair). He would quickly get deathly bored though, and set about doing mischief. So I don't think it will happen this way.... the Court won't want to "resurrect" the troublesome Forest gods anyway. So I think Annie will take the totems to Kat. who will mod her robo-humanoid tanks to do a similar trick on Ys and Coy-man. Would the Robot version of Coyete also see Kat as an Angel, and if so would that belife have a more direct magical effect? |
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Post by saardvark on Jul 25, 2021 2:13:29 GMT
... which would of course successfully accomplish Coyote's long held desire to have Rey rejoin the Forest! I don't think Ys will much like being a Foley student though. Coyote will like the change at first (being a human, maybe with Coyote-ish features, just like jackelope boy retained "horned" hair). He would quickly get deathly bored though, and set about doing mischief. So I don't think it will happen this way.... the Court won't want to "resurrect" the troublesome Forest gods anyway. So I think Annie will take the totems to Kat. who will mod her robo-humanoid tanks to do a similar trick on Ys and Coy-man. Would the Robot version of Coyete also see Kat as an Angel, and if so would that belife have a more direct magical effect? that would be an interesting twist.... Coyote having a hand in raising Kat to mecha-god-hood! |
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Post by phantaskippy on Jul 26, 2021 6:17:15 GMT
This page: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2230and the one after it have me thinking. . . What if Annie doesn't kill Loup, what if the memory tells Loup that will happen, but Loup takes the tooth to try and cut himself and Ysengrim apart, to get rid of his weakness. It would turn Loup's own words into a prophecy that he would then fulfill, "no one can kill me except myself. . . and I don't want to die." Also, Coyote telling Annie her role is very carefully worded, "I mean for you to kill him with it" becomes "He must be killed with it." |
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Post by theonethatgotaway on Jul 26, 2021 7:15:55 GMT
Gillitie Wood indeed had no "ruler" before Coyote arrived at the time the Court and the animals/faeries/elves were having a row because of the Court encroaching more and more on the woods and trying to "tame" the animals there. Coyote, in his magnificent humbleness provided a solution by making the ravine and proclaiming himself King-God-Emperor-Dancemaster of Gillitie and its' denizens. Ysengrin, Reynard and the Shadow people followed soon after. Was it like that, tho? In Coyote's "prequel" comic Rey is looking at "ants" ("ants? I call these things humans"). Ysengrim is dismissive and drags his paw across their trail, and Coyote gets majorly angry and bites his ear off for that. Coyote then offers Rey power to do with the humans as he pleases, but Rey refuses.Then Coyote looks over a ridge and finds the Court. He calls Rey to look at it and just draws a line in the sand, saying that will keep them from interfering with them.
The story is narrated in an allegoric way, so the facts seem to be told simbolically rather than straightly as they happened. But the way that line in the sand is presented, it seems it was created as a self-imposed limit to keep them from meddling with the Court, rather than some measure to protect the forest from the Court
A story about Coyote from Coyote's POV seems like the most biased narrator story ever. There aren't even really any humans in it, and even the seed Bismuth seems to be expanding without actually being the Court, or having the humans around that planted it. It MIGHT be a representation of how it looked in the Aether back in the day, but still. Anything Coyote says, I will take with a salt flat's amount of grains of salt. |
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Post by theonethatgotaway on Jul 26, 2021 7:18:32 GMT
So if Loup would disappear together with our three main Top Doggos, the Court would most likely renew its' attacks on the once again defenceless inhabitants of the woods. Compared to laser-eyed cows?? Absolutely defenc/seless!! |
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Post by pyradonis on Jul 26, 2021 12:04:34 GMT
... which would of course successfully accomplish Coyote's long held desire to have Rey rejoin the Forest! I don't think Ys will much like being a Foley student though. Coyote will like the change at first (being a human, maybe with Coyote-ish features, just like jackelope boy retained "horned" hair). He would quickly get deathly bored though, and set about doing mischief. So I don't think it will happen this way.... the Court won't want to "resurrect" the troublesome Forest gods anyway. So I think Annie will take the totems to Kat. who will mod her robo-humanoid tanks to do a similar trick on Ys and Coy-man. Would the Robot version of Coyete also see Kat as an Angel, and if so would that belife have a more direct magical effect? I don't think so. Everyone else we saw getting a new body (Arthur, the fairies - not counting rabbit boy since we didn't really get to know them when they were still an animal) seemed to retain their personalities. |
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Post by saardvark on Jul 26, 2021 21:24:15 GMT
I'm seeing that people are starting to get upset over Coyote's plan. And yet, I keep thinking back on the time where Coyote insisted on showing Annie how this is done ("this" being how the Forest animals' spirits got transported to the Court). Annie even pointed out this out. Then! Remember the first time Annie went into the forest after Loup's attack (before Loup spilt her into the two Annies), the first thing she saw was totems representing Coyote and Ysengrin. I'm really quite curious to see how these pieces would fit together. There is definitely something else going on. This is a great catch! But still, there are good reasons for people to be upset with Coyote's plan. So he just decided to become human then? Ysegrin would never agree to that. Not that he ever had a say in any of Coyote's decisions, but still. Manipulated for so many years just to become the same creature that he hates so much. Ys consigned to be the lowly, weak human he despises would amuse Coyote enormously.... |
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