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Post by philman on Jul 12, 2021 7:00:46 GMT
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Post by madjack on Jul 12, 2021 7:03:02 GMT
Not the first time, hey?
Interesting...
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Post by justhalf on Jul 12, 2021 7:03:10 GMT
Finally a heartwarming moment amidst the tense conflicts =D
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Post by flowsthead on Jul 12, 2021 7:08:24 GMT
I wonder if Annie would be as willing to hug Coyote if she knew he caused all this mess by ****ing(is swearing allowed here?) with Ysengrin's mind.
But also that was super cute.
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mzpx
Junior Member
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Post by mzpx on Jul 12, 2021 7:13:50 GMT
This reminds me of something Tom said in the Goose Bone retrospective - Coyote is more powerful/dangerous/chaotic than Loup, so we should not really be elated to see him, but it's kind of a 'better the devil you know' situation.
Also, not the first time?? Does he mean something more than when the Court lured Reynardine out of the Forest? I'd have thought they were more serious this time than ever before, what with repurposing their massive power stations and actually entering the Forest. (Although it's been hundreds of years since Coyote arrived, so the previous attempt may have happened before any of the current Court members were around, so who knows, maybe they were serious back then too.)
Oh and another thing, 'my powers'? Aren't they Loup's powers now? Does this mean that Coyote expects himself to be reborn at some point?
Questions, questions..
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Post by madjack on Jul 12, 2021 7:23:56 GMT
Oh and another thing, 'my powers'? Aren't they Loup's powers now? Does this mean that Coyote expects himself to be reborn at some point? Questions, questions.. is defined as "stolen". The strength itself is Loup's, since it was given, the rest are likely not. |
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Post by Fishy on Jul 12, 2021 7:32:33 GMT
I believe Coyote's use of the word "trying" is key here.
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Post by speedwell on Jul 12, 2021 7:33:09 GMT
Forgive me if seeing Annie hug Coyote strikes me as seeing a little girl hug a Sherman tank. As charming and personable a character as Coyote is, he is sort of the opposite of civilised in the strictest definition  |
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mzpx
Junior Member
Posts: 71
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Post by mzpx on Jul 12, 2021 7:37:01 GMT
I believe Coyote's use of the word "trying" is key here. Oh, is this what Coyote meant by 'they almost got it', the Court has tried before, but now they are closer than ever before? |
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Post by basser on Jul 12, 2021 8:17:40 GMT
Heck powers does Coyote even have? Seems like he makes new ones up when the mood strikes.
Besides which though by his own admission Coyote's power is just a manifestation of human belief anyways so presuming the Court is a collective human entity (which is debatable, I guess, considering how much of it is robots, sentient crabs, assorted wildlife etherjacked into vat bodies, several questionably-human magical children, powerful spirits trapped in dolls, pigeons, etc) not feeling like that's exactly theft. I'd argue that's more along the lines of wanting access to an energy source you inadvertently created.
Ironically of course the Court's already replicated most of Coyote's powers in the form of a hyperdimensional robot goddess they probably know nothing about yet and most certainly have zero hope of ever controlling. Heck Kat's etheric form quite literally transcends etheric space, likely indicating she's already vastly more powerful than Coyote could ever hope to be. I mean gosh just imagine that silly goober going up against Kat's "Make Etheric Stuff Boring" powers! Coyote plays up his big ole eldrich horror routine, Kat sees some weird dog flopping around. Maybe tries to awkwardly shoo it away. Annie and friends witness unspeakable acts of etheric dominance.
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Post by speedwell on Jul 12, 2021 8:37:09 GMT
Heck powers does Coyote even have? Seems like he makes new ones up when the mood strikes. Besides which though by his own admission Coyote's power is just a manifestation of human belief anyways so presuming the Court is a collective human entity (which is debatable, I guess, considering how much of it is robots, sentient crabs, assorted wildlife etherjacked into vat bodies, several questionably-human magical children, powerful spirits trapped in dolls, pigeons, etc) not feeling like that's exactly theft. I'd argue that's more along the lines of wanting access to an energy source you inadvertently created. Ironically of course the Court's already replicated most of Coyote's powers in the form of a hyperdimensional robot goddess they probably know nothing about yet and most certainly have zero hope of ever controlling. Heck Kat's etheric form quite literally transcends etheric space, likely indicating she's already vastly more powerful than Coyote could ever hope to be. I mean gosh just imagine that silly goober going up against Kat's "Make Etheric Stuff Boring" powers! Coyote plays up his big ole eldrich horror routine, Kat sees some weird dog flopping around. Maybe tries to awkwardly shoo it away. Annie and friends witness unspeakable acts of etheric dominance. That is exactly and precisely it. Trickster gods are gods of chaos and their mode of operation is, in a nutshell, "Calvinball". I think you're very much on to something by noticing the diametric opposition of "make everything boring" powers to Coyote's, and I have had that thought kind of stuck in the back of my head since the first time everyone was melodramatically stunned that Smitty got made Medium to the Forest. Because of course he was. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jul 12, 2021 8:53:50 GMT
Unless we get a flashback in the next page or two showing otherwise I'm assuming that the Court's past effort(s) to steal Coyote's powers have been more about experiments with drawing/storing/using ether from the general environment, or analyzing the lake water etc, and less about winging devices at him and sucking powers up directly.
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Post by bicarbonat on Jul 12, 2021 8:58:48 GMT
The simultaneous magnitude and banality of "this isn't the first time [they've tried to steal my power]" really explains where Coyote's head is at (aside from insanity) re: his extreme ideas of "shaking things up."
Attempts by the very human beings (symbolically) who give you being might seem like a big threat, no? If even that is stale, he's a lot more trapped by the pace of things than we credit. Think of it: he could go anywhere, mess with anyone or anything. Coyote's an Indigenous American trickster, and who knows when he's last claimed North America as his official stomping grounds.
The fact that he's been kicking around here means that either: 1) he's stayed where he was for something in particular; or, 2) this is literally as good as it gets, which makes me wonder: Beyond an end to the holding pattern of "fun" or breach of treaty, what would it mean for Coyote to raze the Court and its people? The Court certainly doesn't seem to have any compunctions about trying to cannibalize him, and something tells me they don't view their efforts as part of a passion play.
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Post by TBeholder on Jul 12, 2021 9:20:02 GMT
My interpretation is that every single of those little cabals in the Court either already have tried it or is planning to.
Those who did may subsequently have come to the conclusion that not only powers, but even a chance at actual godhood wouldn't be worth being designated "the new personal jester of Coyote".
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jul 12, 2021 9:36:55 GMT
their efforts as part of a passion play. Dammit. That will take a good number of hours to schloop if I want to do the idea justice. [edit] low quality preview/proof of concept  hopefully will be done by Wed. [/edit] |
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Post by blahzor on Jul 12, 2021 10:34:38 GMT
Not the first time, hey? Interesting... the 1st time they put some Arby's under a crate and stick with a string Heck powers does Coyote even have? Seems like he makes new ones up when the mood strikes. Besides which though by his own admission Coyote's power is just a manifestation of human belief anyways so presuming the Court is a collective human entity (which is debatable, I guess, considering how much of it is robots, sentient crabs, assorted wildlife etherjacked into vat bodies, several questionably-human magical children, powerful spirits trapped in dolls, pigeons, etc) not feeling like that's exactly theft. I'd argue that's more along the lines of wanting access to an energy source you inadvertently created. Ironically of course the Court's already replicated most of Coyote's powers in the form of a hyperdimensional robot goddess they probably know nothing about yet and most certainly have zero hope of ever controlling. Heck Kat's etheric form quite literally transcends etheric space, likely indicating she's already vastly more powerful than Coyote could ever hope to be. I mean gosh just imagine that silly goober going up against Kat's "Make Etheric Stuff Boring" powers! Coyote plays up his big ole eldrich horror routine, Kat sees some weird dog flopping around. Maybe tries to awkwardly shoo it away. Annie and friends witness unspeakable acts of etheric dominance. Coyote's power is everything he could think of. but if he doesn't know about one he can't do it. it's his real flaw |
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Post by CoyoteReborn on Jul 12, 2021 11:39:03 GMT
Heck powers does Coyote even have? Seems like he makes new ones up when the mood strikes. Yes. Not the first time, hey? Interesting... the 1st time they put some Arby's under a crate and stick with a string Honestly, that would work on me. Arby's has the meats. I'm giving free hugs today, who wants one? ^#^ I promise I will probably definitely not bite. |
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Post by aline on Jul 12, 2021 11:47:18 GMT
Coyote did tell Annie that the Court was "man's endeavour to become God". He also told her that when he arrived to Gillitie Wood, "the humans sought to tame the powerful creatures" leading him to create the ravine and the Annan Waters. They've probably been looking for a way to do this for litteral centuries, as soon as Coyote showed up and proved to be the most powerful creature out there. And been checkmated each time. An appropriate way to pass the time, I guess, for the Trickster. |
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Post by saardvark on Jul 12, 2021 12:58:43 GMT
their efforts as part of a passion play. Dammit. That will take a good number of hours to schloop if I want to do the idea justice. [edit] low quality preview/proof of concept View Attachmenthopefully will be done by Wed. [/edit] Annie as the Madonna with Coyote as her child? (!!). That's pretty whack.... |
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Post by pyradonis on Jul 12, 2021 13:01:14 GMT
I mean gosh just imagine that silly goober going up against Kat's "Make Etheric Stuff Boring" powers! Coyote plays up his big ole eldrich horror routine, Kat sees some weird dog flopping around. Maybe tries to awkwardly shoo it away. Annie and friends witness unspeakable acts of etheric dominance. That idea has been postulated again and again, but it won't work. Kat saw the guys from the RotD as humans in scary masks because that's what they are - she is not fooled by Etheric illusions, but she sees real Etheric beings just like they are. She saw psychopomps and ghosts just like the others did. She also was pulled into the Etheric distortion on the cruise ship like everyone else.
Attempts by the very human beings (symbolically) who give you being might seem like a big threat, no? If even that is stale, he's a lot more trapped by the pace of things than we credit. Think of it: he could go anywhere, mess with anyone or anything. Coyote's an Indigenous American trickster, and who knows when he's last claimed North America as his official stomping grounds.
I wonder if Annie would be as willing to hug Coyote if she knew he caused all this mess by ****ing(is swearing allowed here?) with Ysengrin's mind. But also that was super cute. I thought the same thing. Cute, but if Annie knew all the kind of **** that Coyote has pulled off, even her ability of forgiving murderers and attempts to kill her might be somewhat strained. |
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Post by todd on Jul 12, 2021 13:01:45 GMT
Coyote did tell Annie that the Court was "man's endeavour to become God". He also told her that when he arrived to Gillitie Wood, "the humans sought to tame the powerful creatures" leading him to create the ravine and the Annan Waters. As I've mentioned before, I think we need to take Coyote's statement about the Court being "man's endeavour to become God" (the only time in the comic that this statement has been made) with caution. This is: a) Coyote's perspective (drawing on his knowing how the ether has created gods and mythical beings, which presumably only a very few other people in the Gunnerkrigg-verse know - and I doubt that the Court leadership is among them) and b) spoken with an agenda (to manipulate Annie's perspective of the Court). Coyote's statement is true in the sense that the outcome of the Court's experiments with the ether will result in humans having godlike powers (especially if what's happening to Kat is indeed part of that outcome - though, from what we've seen so far, I don't think that Kat becoming the robots' goddess is part of the Court's plan or something that it even suspects as yet), but I still don't think that the Court have suspected that. I think it more likely that the Court's attempt to steal Coyote's powers is motivated by: a) neutralizing a potential threat and b) studying the ether. |
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Post by todd on Jul 12, 2021 13:14:13 GMT
This reminds me of something Tom said in the Goose Bone retrospective - Coyote is more powerful/dangerous/chaotic than Loup, so we should not really be elated to see him, but it's kind of a 'better the devil you know' situation. That and Coyote is funny and can display a great deal of charm (neither of which Loup does), which allows us to excuse or overlook his darker aspects. |
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Post by aline on Jul 12, 2021 13:21:09 GMT
Coyote did tell Annie that the Court was "man's endeavour to become God". He also told her that when he arrived to Gillitie Wood, "the humans sought to tame the powerful creatures" leading him to create the ravine and the Annan Waters. I think it more likely that the Court's attempt to steal Coyote's powers is motivated by: a) neutralizing a potential threat and b) studying the ether. I disagree! I think they study the ether specifically to discover how to control and manipulate it, which is functionally equivalent to being a god. I don't believe for one second that everything we just saw is the result of some passive desire to neutralize a threat or to gain an intellectual understanding of magic and nothing more. It's only a minor stop on the way to much bigger plans. I think if given half a chance they will redesign the entire universe and everything inside it. |
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Post by theonethatgotaway on Jul 12, 2021 14:33:44 GMT
I just love Coyote going: "ooh, good effort this time! C+, almost there, guys! This time I felt a tickle." But this makes me think Loup might wake up with even MORE of a bad temper once he understands what they tried to do. How will Coyote fix THAT?
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mzpx
Junior Member
Posts: 71
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Post by mzpx on Jul 12, 2021 15:32:13 GMT
I think it more likely that the Court's attempt to steal Coyote's powers is motivated by: a) neutralizing a potential threat and b) studying the ether. I disagree! I think they study the ether specifically to discover how to control and manipulate it, which is functionally equivalent to being a god. I don't believe for one second that everything we just saw is the result of some passive desire to neutralize a threat or to gain an intellectual understanding of magic and nothing more. It's only a minor stop on the way to much bigger plans. I think if given half a chance they will redesign the entire universe and everything inside it. Discovering how to control and manipulate something does not necessarily lead to actually making changes, it's just part of the process of understanding in science. E.g. synthetic biology is primarily used to better understand the natural world, only a small part of it is about creating new products. In fact, science often discovers that the system is more complicated than previously thought when it tries to manipulate the real world and goes back to the drawing board/introduces strict regulations. (Not to say there aren't bad examples of people making bad decisions thinking they already understood the system, see e.g. cane toads in Australia.) I guess we'll find out soon enough where the Court stands. My guess is still that it will be hubris rather than actual malicious intent, but we'll see. |
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mzpx
Junior Member
Posts: 71
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Post by mzpx on Jul 12, 2021 15:39:24 GMT
Unless we get a flashback in the next page or two showing otherwise I'm assuming that the Court's past effort(s) to steal Coyote's powers have been more about experiments with drawing/storing/using ether from the general environment, or analyzing the lake water etc, and less about winging devices at him and sucking powers up directly. Yeah, I wouldn't really trust anything that Coyote says. Both Jones and Loup have warned us that his 'no lying' thing is basically worse. Edit: oops, I meant to quote todd: Coyote did tell Annie that the Court was "man's endeavour to become God". He also told her that when he arrived to Gillitie Wood, "the humans sought to tame the powerful creatures" leading him to create the ravine and the Annan Waters. As I've mentioned before, I think we need to take Coyote's statement about the Court being "man's endeavour to become God" (the only time in the comic that this statement has been made) with caution. This is: a) Coyote's perspective (drawing on his knowing how the ether has created gods and mythical beings, which presumably only a very few other people in the Gunnerkrigg-verse know - and I doubt that the Court leadership is among them) and b) spoken with an agenda (to manipulate Annie's perspective of the Court). Coyote's statement is true in the sense that the outcome of the Court's experiments with the ether will result in humans having godlike powers (especially if what's happening to Kat is indeed part of that outcome - though, from what we've seen so far, I don't think that Kat becoming the robots' goddess is part of the Court's plan or something that it even suspects as yet), but I still don't think that the Court have suspected that. I think it more likely that the Court's attempt to steal Coyote's powers is motivated by: a) neutralizing a potential threat and b) studying the ether. |
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Post by aline on Jul 12, 2021 16:13:15 GMT
Discovering how to control and manipulate something does not necessarily lead to actually making changes, it's just part of the process of understanding in science. E.g. synthetic biology is primarily used to better understand the natural world, only a small part of it is about creating new products. In fact, science often discovers that the system is more complicated than previously thought when it tries to manipulate the real world and goes back to the drawing board/introduces strict regulations. True, but inversely a great deal of research also happens because people are trying to do things and need to find out how. The military, for example, has always been a great patron of the sciences and people have discovered all kinds of interesting facts about the world in the process of trying to create new inventive weapons. On a more positive note, the majority of medical research is focused on diseases, disorders and treatments, and even when someone tries to answer a more fundamental question about the human body it's usually with the idea of using it for more specific research later, such as when the research on mRNA landed us COVID vaccines. It didn't happen by accident, there were people who envisioned all the things we could do with that tech and poured the money in, they weren't just invested with curiosity about the workings of RNA. The majority of research funding in all sectors, in fact, comes from private investors, and those don't pay for things because they're generally curious about the universe. They want to sell driving cars and 3D TVs. Even government funded fundamental research usually has some practical goal built in, it's just a more long-term thing, like the dudes in the south of France who have been studying particles for decades. They get funding in the hope it'll land us a fusion reactor one day: cheap, easy and climate-friendly energy that would change the world. No luck so far alas, not all discoveries end up being useful. Reasearch is unpredictable. But the goal is still, most of the time, utilitarian. |
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Jota
Junior Member
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Post by Jota on Jul 12, 2021 16:21:48 GMT
I mean gosh just imagine that silly goober going up against Kat's "Make Etheric Stuff Boring" powers! Coyote plays up his big ole eldrich horror routine, Kat sees some weird dog flopping around. Maybe tries to awkwardly shoo it away. Annie and friends witness unspeakable acts of etheric dominance. That idea has been postulated again and again, but it won't work. Kat saw the guys from the RotD as humans in scary masks because that's what they are - she is not fooled by Etheric illusions, but she sees real Etheric beings just like they are. She saw psychopomps and ghosts just like the others did. She also was pulled into the Etheric distortion on the cruise ship like everyone else. So it could be the other way around. We see Coyote as a weird dog flopping around and charming Annie. But Kat may see him for the more sinister and dangerous being that he really is. |
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Post by Gemminie on Jul 12, 2021 16:53:17 GMT
Despite the fact that the rest of the world appears grayed-out and motionless, Annie is in color and able to speak – most likely because of Coyote fiat because Loup is also frozen – and is now communicating with Coyote. Her hair is flipped upward into the air, suggesting that she's just turned around in surprise. Coyote says he's disappointed that she brought others with her to the Forest, but he's grinning, so this is likely a joke. He asks her whether she felt unsafe.
Annie looks more closely at Coyote in Frame 2, her eyebrows emotional, telling him that no, safety is not a feeling Loup inspires. Coyote Laughed at This.
In Frame 3, Annie happily embraces Coyote, who may be unpredictable and terrifying but is at least good-humored. Coyote grins and allows it.
But then Annie asks him what's going on. Continuing to grin, he replies that the Court's trying to steal his powers. He's looking at the time-frozen Loup, with the plume of energy from his head going off in the Court's direction. He states that this isn't the first time they've tried this.
What other times have they tried this? Well, it's possible that their whole gambit with trying to manipulate Renard to accept some of Coyote's powers and then luring him into the Court and imprisoning him there has been a long game to try to get control over at least one of Coyote's powers. Are there other times? I'm trying to think of any that we've seen. Of course, there may well have been attempts we haven't seen.
Now to read the forum posts!
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Post by Gemminie on Jul 12, 2021 17:00:03 GMT
I'm giving free hugs today, who wants one? ^#^ I promise I will probably definitely not bite. Absolutely! *big hugs!* <3 |
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