[2486] "Are you... trying to guilt me?"

[imaginaryfriend]

Antimony is trying to appeal to Loup's... conscience here, I think? Not sure that's a good play.

[madjack]

Panel 3 is beautiful, Loup's deranged childish ranting in panel 5 is nothing next to Annie's look of disgusted contempt.

[imaginaryfriend]

Panel 3 makes me wonder how well Antimony actually knew/knows Ysengrin in spite of all the time they spent together. He is a wolf, after all. I'm genuinely not sure what the play is here. I guess she did succeed in keeping his focus on her and briefly confusing him.

[madjack]

If nothing else, it's getting him to show his true (lack of) depth.

[bicarbonat]

He's a living shortcut and we're all seeing the drawbacks of it. Ysengrin wanted power, no instruction manual, all cheat codes, and he got it - violently smushing two beings (one of whom was deeply mentally damaged until like 3 seconds before said smush) into one without properly alchemizing and acclimating results in...this. A stunted, reactive entity that seems almost rabid: aggressive and paranoid and erratic and ultimately incompatible with life.

And yet my prevailing thought is: Coyote probably knew all of this, too. I'm wondering if, when Loup dies (as Coyote predicted), will Ysengrin be restored? Because if not, this twisted tantrum is even sadder to see. Talk about the whole being less than the sum of its parts.

[jda]

I'm half expecting Loup will snap and attack Annie with open jaws... and Annie will enter SS3 Saiyan mode, uncork the bottle with her thumb, and ram it inside its frotting mouth.
Next page: Universe implodes, and Loup dissolves.

[aline]

Annie doing very well so far keeping control of the conversation.
It occurs to me that Coyote influenced not just Ysengrin, but also Annie, so that, when the time comes, she would be able to do exactly this. He taught her to stand her ground, to see him, to love him, to expect sudden violence from him. She's learned to know how Loup thinks as well, by now.

I don't expect this situation will be resolved by violence. That's not how Annie works, and she's the one calling the shots right now. So proud of her, she's grown so much.

[Demonsul]

I mean, with a reaction like that, my expectation is that Loup is feeling pretty guilty, and hates it.

[Gemminie]

So, my first impressions, as usual ... Annie was just telling Loup that he wasn't going to hurt her, and they both know it. Here she's continuing that thought – Annie's part of Coyote's plan, whatever it is, and Loup's not going to interfere with it.

Loup pauses in his fury. His stance is different – he's at an angle, as if turning, and his legs are stiff, as if paralyzed by indecision.

Then Annie goes to a different place, and it's not really clear why. She reminds him of the tree people, whom he ejected from the forest, and whom the Court has been treating better than Loup has. (Aren't they part of the Forest's ecosystem? Wouldn't they be necessary to the Forest's well-being?) Let me just note, however, that Annie says, "Every time we help you." Is she talking about herself as part of the Court, or is she speaking of herself in plural? My theory is still that both Annies are still in there, simultaneously conscious, though they don't always talk at the same time. Perhaps this is both of them speaking at once. But back to the question of why she's doing this. Ideally the visit was just to give him the lake water. Is she trying to snap Loup out of his rage so he'll be rational? But why would this tactic do that? Is she trying to make him angrier? That seems to be working, but why? Maybe the strategy in her head is to actually break his concentration?

Loup seems astonished at first. He seems surprised that she'd assume he even feels guilt at all, about anything. He raises his head, taken aback at this outrageous notion.

And then he's back to full-on rage. His face is distorted, flattened and uneven, his tongue out, as he shouts about how insignificant everybody else is. Maybe Annie's pressing this issue to make the point that he's trying to control the Forest while not even being in control of himself?

There is once again a double-wide panel featuring Annie, just like the previous page, and the horizontal frame divisions are at a bit of an angle, though the camera seems to stay vertical, except perhaps for the last panel – that close-up of a distorted Loup face makes it hard to say. The backgrounds are remaining the same, although we're not seeing anybody back there – but this page is mostly about the Annie-Loup interactions. The lake water has a glow around it when it's shown against a dark backdrop, but when shown against the relatively light ground (lit by Loup-light), we don't see the glow. I can't tell whether the glow is artistic or diegetic.

[ohthatone]

Waiting for aata to interrupt any minute now with an offer of some kind.

[ctso74]

Could she be provoking him to eat her, and therefore the Water?
In the last chapter, people talked about how much more powerful she was, but I don't think she can turn to literal flame to escape. Maybe, a quick toss and an Eggs/George speed rescue?

When you mix Coyote's silly tantrums and Ysengrin's temper, this is what you get.

[rylfrazier]

Annie has a long-standing and pretty significant understanding of Ysengrin. Coyote created Loup by hiding away all of Ysengrin's anger and shame then giving it all back to him at once and at the same time putting him in the position of being able to kill and eat Coyote thus gaining his power.

For Coyote the reason for doing this could have been as simple as wanting to have a new experience but there could also have been another layer to this plan. Coyote, Ysengrin and Rey all arrived after the court and the wood initially split and his reason for taking over the wood and essentially laying siege to the court has never been completely clear.

Curious to see what direction Tom takes this chapter next.

[pyradonis]

I'll do it so you don't have to.

[jda]

Jun 28, 2021 17:31:30 GMT pyradonis said:

I'll do it so you don't have to.

You saw an opportunity and you took it.

[bedinsis]

I'm liking Annie seeing through Loup in the first panel.

[Tenjen]

I dont think she's appealing to him about anything. she's calling him out.

[pyradonis]

Jun 28, 2021 17:43:58 GMT jda said:

You saw an opportunity and you took it.

Well, as I claimed in the appropriate thread, it felt more like doing my duty.

[imaginaryfriend]

Jun 28, 2021 18:05:39 GMT Tenjen said:

I dont think she's appealing to him about anything. she's calling him out.

After much reflection, including weighing the possibilities that Antimony was winding "Loup" up on purpose to later unwind him in a useful direction or tailoring her words to the humans that came with her and/or using them to message the Court higher-ups, I think I agree. She's just saying what she thinks, replying to "Loup" with what she feels like saying. Not sure if this is the result of personal growth, righteous indignation, frustration, or just some impulse control issue that comes with reintegration ala Zeta and having twice the fire... but I'm leaning towards the latter two possibilities and thinking that this isn't 4d chess, she's just stopped thinking about (or stopped caring about) the consequences, at least for the moment. She's stopped being a mediator or medium. I wonder if that will insulate the others that came with her or screw them over. Am guessing the safer bet is "screw."

[hp]

Jun 28, 2021 8:57:49 GMT aline said:

(...)
It occurs to me that Coyote influenced not just Ysengrin, but also Annie, so that, when the time comes, she would be able to do exactly this.
(...)

Definitely. Despite being a prankster, Coyote is an elder god and a chessmaster. He has been plucking selected memories out of Ysengrim and feeding Annie information, working to push everyone in a very specific direction, with some very specific goal in mind.

I'm still of the mind that every single thing in the whole plot is a "Batman Gambit" by him. Or maybe a "Xanatos Gambit", in which he doesn't control every single variable, but any outcome is beneficial for his objectives anyway.

IIRC he does things "for fun" and he mentioned he once wanted to experience dying (was it when he told the kids the tale about when he wasdead by some lake?). Whatever is his goal with all this mess, he certainly has Ysengrim, Loup, Annie, the court and everyone else figured

[lurkerbot]

I note that Antimony has not brought up Loup's earlier promise not to hurt her. Then again, Loup is acting so erratically I don't know that Loup even remembers that vow himself, or still feels bound by it. Perhaps Loup believes that the pledge holds for only the Forest aspect of Antimony and not her as a whole after her apparent recombination - a possible "Loup" hole? (sorry)

[maxptc]

Jun 28, 2021 23:22:54 GMT lurkerbot said:

"Loup" hole? (sorry)

*Nonchalantly looks at bad joke thread*

[mturtle7]

It's interesting to me how multiple people are assuming that Annie's admonition here is part of some sort of clever, indirect manipulation. Not a bad kind of interesting, it just helps put me outside my own perspective, and notice some stuff I hadn't really paid attention to before.

I think there's a fundamental difference between how we as readers see creatures like Loup or Coyote, and how Annie sees them, which isn't immediately obvious from her usual interactions with them. We tend to see them as gods, ancient legends, and/or mythical archetypes, and therefore as having certain fixed, fundamental, qualities which place them far beyond the norms and expectations of human society. When Loup throws a tantrum or does something evil, it's easy enough for us to accept that as part of his...well, divine domain, for lack of a better term. We might not like it, but it's not exactly something we can just wag a finger at and then expect it to change.

Annie, however, never sees ANYONE as being completely beyond reason. If a god doesn't know how to behave politely, she will teach it to them through her behavior. If they act inappropriately towards her, she'll slap them and call them a bad dog. If they do something truly cruel, she'll make it clear she's genuinely upset by their behavior, no matter how much they try to distract her with their power and glamour.  Oftentimes, she'll try to appeal to creatures' better nature even while she's fighting with them - either as a friend, or in a more professional capacity. Arguably, that used to be kind of a handicap for her, but ever since Eglamore had that one little talk with her, she's clearly learned to maintain a healthy respect for the potential danger of such creatures, without really losing any of the respect she holds for their potential reason. It's what makes her such a great Medium!

And here, we're really seeing a prime example of that. Throughout this whole mega-arc, Loup has kept trying to interact with Annie as a god would with a mere mortal, but every single time she is just NOT. HAVING. IT. She might recognize the power difference, but she won't ever stop treating their interactions as anything but conversations between two people, both of them equally capable of human reason and morality. I wonder how long he can keep denying the truth of that...

[Tenjen]

I like how loup seems to be losing artistic cohesion the angrier he gets versus the rest of the comic pages

[machiavelli33]

Jun 28, 2021 7:40:33 GMT bicarbonat said:

He's a living shortcut and we're all seeing the drawbacks of it. Ysengrin wanted power, no instruction manual, all cheat codes, and he got it - violently smushing two beings (one of whom was deeply mentally damaged until like 3 seconds before said smush) into one without properly alchemizing and acclimating results in...this. A stunted, reactive entity that seems almost rabid: aggressive and paranoid and erratic and ultimately incompatible with life.

And yet my prevailing thought is: Coyote probably knew all of this, too. I'm wondering if, when Loup dies (as Coyote predicted), will Ysengrin be restored? Because if not, this twisted tantrum is even sadder to see. Talk about the whole being less than the sum of its parts.

Relogged after weeks of being away just to up this.  What a cutting summation of Loup as an entity.

[davidm]

Loup knows he probably is about to die, part of what we see is likely a fight or flight type response.

Annie was told by Coyote when dealing with Ysengrin best to stand ground rather than cower in fear, being more "diplomatic" would likely make Loup more dangerous, in order to establish himself as the Alpha dog he might more confidently do some more destruction.