V
Full Member
I just think it's a pity that she never wore these again.
Posts: 168
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Post by V on May 28, 2021 7:00:36 GMT
The mutual opening was worth it. Given all the struggle we've been shown, this means a lot. Edit: "mutual" is probably not the word. Bipartite? Respective? My Vee-English dictionary doesn't help much. |
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Post by flowsthead on May 28, 2021 7:03:02 GMT
Weird perspective. He looks like a child with his mom.
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Post by aline on May 28, 2021 7:14:46 GMT
Weird perspective. He looks like a child with his mom. Yeah. She's up on the stair and he's below, looking up, making him appear smaller. Annie's way ahead of him. |
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Post by flowsthead on May 28, 2021 7:16:20 GMT
Weird perspective. He looks like a child with his mom. Yeah. She's up on the stair and he's below, looking up, making him appear smaller. Annie's way ahead of him. That makes sense for the wide shot, but in the close ups her head is bigger. It's messing with me a little. |
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Post by aline on May 28, 2021 7:58:41 GMT
Yeah. She's up on the stair and he's below, looking up, making him appear smaller. Annie's way ahead of him. That makes sense for the wide shot, but in the close ups her head is bigger. It's messing with me a little. Yeah it's like the camera is closer to Annie and at her height, and when turning to Tony he's further away and lower. To underscore their relative positions I suppose. It looks a little strange yes |
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Post by speedwell on May 28, 2021 8:31:34 GMT
As Father Ted said to Father Dougal, "these are small, and those other ones are far away".  I am a tiny bit out of patience with Tony at the moment. I know it's difficult for him to express himself and I know why and how and I have complete sympathy for him, actually. But I'm a female autistic who's been indoctrinated all my life to perform as a social being against my natural bent. In essence, I've been told to "fake sincerity". My husband is a good example of an autistic person who is genuinely not in touch with his emotions a lot of the time; you can ask him in the middle of a full meltdown what the matter is, and he'll say "nothing, I'm fine". Tony, however, whatever his issues are, is not out of touch with his emotions; sort of the opposite - they crowd and distress him, but he's fully aware. We've pointed out before how people's lowered expectations of Tony are part of the problem. Anyway just venting my impatience with his "can't do this thing" where I was forced to do that thing and overcame it eventually. |
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Post by lisanela on May 28, 2021 9:48:59 GMT
It's pretty amazing how healthy he looks compared to when he first appeared - I guess lying face down in the desert for 5 years and going "hnnnnsurmaaa" before getting scammed by etheric bugs will do that to someone. |
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Post by ohthatone on May 28, 2021 12:42:47 GMT
Baby steps 🙂
I wonder if he vocalized any of this before now. I imagine he elaborated more to surma but we just dont know
He may not have been able to explain himself to such a degree before now. Maybe his chat with jones helped open a door to start taking bigger steps.
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Post by pyradonis on May 28, 2021 13:46:00 GMT
As Father Ted said to Father Dougal, "these are small, and those other ones are far away". I am a tiny bit out of patience with Tony at the moment. I know it's difficult for him to express himself and I know why and how and I have complete sympathy for him, actually. But I'm a female autistic who's been indoctrinated all my life to perform as a social being against my natural bent. In essence, I've been told to "fake sincerity". My husband is a good example of an autistic person who is genuinely not in touch with his emotions a lot of the time; you can ask him in the middle of a full meltdown what the matter is, and he'll say "nothing, I'm fine". Tony, however, whatever his issues are, is not out of touch with his emotions; sort of the opposite - they crowd and distress him, but he's fully aware. We've pointed out before how people's lowered expectations of Tony are part of the problem. Anyway just venting my impatience with his "can't do this thing" where I was forced to do that thing and overcame it eventually. Did you overcome it alone or did you have professional help? |
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Post by speedwell on May 28, 2021 14:07:04 GMT
As Father Ted said to Father Dougal, "these are small, and those other ones are far away". I am a tiny bit out of patience with Tony at the moment. I know it's difficult for him to express himself and I know why and how and I have complete sympathy for him, actually. But I'm a female autistic who's been indoctrinated all my life to perform as a social being against my natural bent. In essence, I've been told to "fake sincerity". My husband is a good example of an autistic person who is genuinely not in touch with his emotions a lot of the time; you can ask him in the middle of a full meltdown what the matter is, and he'll say "nothing, I'm fine". Tony, however, whatever his issues are, is not out of touch with his emotions; sort of the opposite - they crowd and distress him, but he's fully aware. We've pointed out before how people's lowered expectations of Tony are part of the problem. Anyway just venting my impatience with his "can't do this thing" where I was forced to do that thing and overcame it eventually. Did you overcome it alone or did you have professional help? Neither. I, like many middle-aged female autistics, had a modicum of social skills literally scorned and abused into me as a young woman until I could figure out a few things on my own. Then I muddled through until I was about 45, at which time neurotypical middle-aged ladies are willing to admit they have "growth to do" in dealing with other people, and sage-smudge their way into awareness. I managed to finally find a therapist who gave me ten nice tips over a couple dozen sessions for dealing with overwhelm, anxiety, and a bad upbringing. The rest is due to the kindness of friends. Or perhaps I should say the amused tolerance of friends.  |
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Post by ctso74 on May 28, 2021 14:48:23 GMT
"Yeah, you're trying. Our patience. What do you think of that Mr. Tony... You appreciate my comical use of a homonym... Well... ...You too!... You too? I'm so stupid." I found this chapter to be frustratingly slow and overemphasized. But in truth, you can't force a personality disorder out of someone, no more than you can force an addiction out of them. So, yeah. Still though, Tony's being more than a little dense. Write a letter. Tell Renard. Anything. Therapy. The correct drugs can sometimes be an amazing tool. The Court has got to have a good pharmaceuticals. Maybe, they need Tony is this state, as much as they need Annie in her current state. |
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Post by sebastian on May 28, 2021 15:03:55 GMT
"Yeah, you're trying. Our patience. What do you think of that Mr. Tony... You appreciate my comical use of a homonym... Well... ...You too!... You too? I'm so stupid." I found this chapter to be frustratingly slow and overemphasized. But in truth, you can't force a personality disorder out of someone, no more than you can force an addiction out of them. So, yeah. Still though, Tony's being more than a little dense. Write a letter. Tell Renard. Anything. Therapy. The correct drugs can sometimes be an amazing tool. The Court has got to have a good pharmaceuticals. Maybe, they need Tony is this state, as much as they need Annie in her current state. Sometime even for the smartest the obvious solution is sometime hard to see. case in pointIn Antony's defense until not that long ago he had problem writing, being short one right hand. |
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Post by flowsthead on May 28, 2021 15:32:38 GMT
It took me a while, but now I can't help but read the discussion title in the Mr. Meeseeks voice.
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Post by puntino on May 28, 2021 15:34:45 GMT
Baby steps 🙂 I wonder if he vocalized any of this before now. I imagine he elaborated more to surma but we just dont know He may not have been able to explain himself to such a degree before now. Maybe his chat with jones helped open a door to start taking bigger steps. I can't really stress how vocalizing an internal struggle, whatever it may be, helps you rationalize it and devise ways to address the issue. Although he might have already understood the cage thing going on with him, I wouldn't be surprise if, during his explanation, his mind came up with ways of at least attempting to reach out to others a little. At least that's what happens to me during therapy, for several different issues. |
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Post by maxptc on May 28, 2021 16:29:17 GMT
Looks like Tony wanted to say more and still can't, but at least he can say something. Baby steps and all that.
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Post by mturtle7 on May 28, 2021 17:00:17 GMT
Well shucks, you guys. This is actually freaking adorable. He can't say the words he clearly wants to say, but she completely understands anyway, and they both manage to show that they love each other in a way which doesn't rest on the condition of his "mind cage". That face in the last panel alone...is it possible to just freaking die from sweetness? Because if so, that's what I'm doing right now.
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Post by worldsong on May 28, 2021 18:00:15 GMT
Annie does have the best smiles.
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Post by nero on May 28, 2021 18:36:32 GMT
I'm glad Annie is okay mostly from what we can see. I think Anthony should have kept trying to improve his social behavior prior to Annie's birth. He only just started making tiny steps towards real progress for Annie right before she split in two. He thought he could get by with a few friends one on one, his wife, and his sole child. Having a child means meeting other people important to your kid. Did he really think being cold in public would work for the rest of his life? Anthony is an annoying character to me but I'm still interested in what the comic will cover about him.
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Post by pyradonis on May 28, 2021 19:15:18 GMT
Annie does have the best smiles. |
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karp
New Member
Posts: 8 
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Post by karp on May 28, 2021 19:22:30 GMT
We are seriously supposed to give this motherfucker credit for saying goodnight.
It's not ironic or layers of creeipness or ambivalence or anything. We are just honestly really seriously supposed to give this guy credit for saying goodnight.
What. The fuck. Has happened to this comic.
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Post by nero on May 28, 2021 19:42:54 GMT
Hmm the way it is phrased and the depiction and actions of all characters involved seem a little cheap. It isn't really giving Anthony praise for doing the least a father should do, living together as a family, but it isn't punishing Anthony for his actions. He still hasn't apologized to Annie in person for all of his actions. So far this conversation, let alone anything more than a sentence is too much for him to actually say to Annie. Annie in this moment sees Anthony trying to be kind and fatherly so the comic will follow that trend. It will probably take months for the comic to reach another point where her perspective of her father gets to the truth he explained to Jones. Annie will have to accept that Anthony did feel irrational anger when he sees Annie(s) resembling Surma. It isn't that she has to stand by his side, it is that Anthony has to cross over the boundaries set in his mind to finally become someone that can respect Annie, and stand by her side.
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ffkonoko
New Member
I've been a New Member for 9 years.
Posts: 44
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Post by ffkonoko on May 28, 2021 21:37:47 GMT
But I'm a female autistic who's been indoctrinated all my life to perform as a social being against my natural bent. In essence, I've been told to "fake sincerity". My husband is a good example of an autistic person who is genuinely not in touch with his emotions a lot of the time; you can ask him in the middle of a full meltdown what the matter is, and he'll say "nothing, I'm fine". Tony, however, whatever his issues are, is not out of touch with his emotions; sort of the opposite - they crowd and distress him, but he's fully aware. We've pointed out before how people's lowered expectations of Tony are part of the problem. Anyway just venting my impatience with his "can't do this thing" where I was forced to do that thing and overcame it eventually. Yeah, I figured it's kinda a similar problem but coming from the opposite side. Though I am legitimately unsure if it is just a very fine line of distinction, or complete opposite. He absolutely is aware of his emotions, is in touch with them almost too much at times, trapped inside with them. See: fingernails digging into palms. I think he IS a social being naturally, and does not need to fake sincerity. See: him being sincere when alone with certain people He absolutely should still just Do The Thing. But I can imagine that the internal emotional turmoil, something that clouds his rational thought, causing him to constantly freeze, overthink, even while externally he doesn't seem to be experiencing any? That is something he has been dealing with himself for many years. And I think he has been dealing with it by himself far longer than he has been getting help, prompting or forced change from others. Self analysis is not always a good way to improve. Hmm the way it is phrased and the depiction and actions of all characters involved seem a little cheap. It isn't really giving Anthony praise for doing the least a father should do, living together as a family, but it isn't punishing Anthony for his actions. He still hasn't apologized to Annie in person for all of his actions. So far this conversation, let alone anything more than a sentence is too much for him to actually say to Annie. Annie in this moment sees Anthony trying to be kind and fatherly so the comic will follow that trend. It will probably take months for the comic to reach another point where her perspective of her father gets to the truth he explained to Jones. Annie will have to accept that Anthony did feel irrational anger when he sees Annie(s) resembling Surma. It isn't that she has to stand by his side, it is that Anthony has to cross over the boundaries set in his mind to finally become someone that can respect Annie, and stand by her side. I feel like I can repeat most of what you said, but in a positive way. Yes, Anthony has to get through the barrier in his mind. She'll be waiting by his side for when he does so, and he is trying to. It will take a lot of time and hard work, probably taking months, but we can see in this moment him trying to be kind and fatherly. He already expressed the truth and goal to Jones. The comic is not excusing Anthony for what he did, but it is fighting an uphill struggle against preconception and a narrative point of view shaping opinions so it needed to belabor the point more than I'd have liked. |
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Post by Fishy on May 28, 2021 22:18:51 GMT
I keep seeing "Just write to her" or "Just relay it through someone else" and I gotta wonder, you guys know that it's not the physically speaking part that's hard, right?
It's not that his vocal chords are shutting down when he sees her, it's that his brain is shutting down when he's aware that he'll be communicating with Annie. Donny's his oldest friend, and definitely knows about this issue, hence why he advised Annie to spy on him and did not offer to simply relay info from Tony. If Tony was aware his words were going to reach Annie, he would freeze up. He would overthink, and panic, and shut down. Y'all ever see that trope of a hundred crumpled up written messages next to a writing desk that had been intended to be sent to a loved one? That's his best case scenario, 'cause more likely he wouldn't even get to the crumpling stage. He'd freeze before his pen hit paper.
Someone definitely could just relay all that Tony says to Annie without him knowing, but no character has done that in large part because it's just a really shitty thing to do and Tony likely wouldn't open up to them, or possibly to anyone about his issue anymore if he believed a breach of trust was likely. If I had to guess, it's in large part because he's searching for the correct thing to say to make it all right, and anything less than it being done perfectly from his own mouth would seem a disrespectful, unworthy failure in his mind. And the issue with that is... there is no perfect thing to say, and every failure to do so just makes it feel worse. I think he could eventually get an apology out, but he'd first have to accept that an apology from him would be worth something.
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Post by alevice on May 28, 2021 22:31:13 GMT
how cute he is trying!
f*ck the narrative
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Post by silicondream on May 28, 2021 23:08:13 GMT
Weird perspective. He looks like a child with his mom. It's a way of giving Annie the upper hand in the conversation. Tony spends a lot of time consciously lowering himself before Annie. He sits, or stands with his hands safely at his sides, or stoops, or goes out of his way to stand beneath her on staircases. This is International Monster Language for: "Don't worry, non-Monster, I know you think we're always just about to commit some horrible act of violence, but I am safe. Seriously, you can scream at me or punch me or draw moustaches on me or ignore me or whatever, it's all good. Just don't be afraid--but I can't say that or you'll think I'm trying to make you lower your guard. So I'll just be over here, in the corner, being small."Most men, and most black & brown people, have taken pains to learn this language. Annie probably started learning it around the time she thought "wow, other children are much more tossable than I expected." She's very deliberately placating towards Paz, for example. As Father Ted said to Father Dougal, "these are small, and those other ones are far away". I am a tiny bit out of patience with Tony at the moment. I know it's difficult for him to express himself and I know why and how and I have complete sympathy for him, actually. But I'm a female autistic who's been indoctrinated all my life to perform as a social being against my natural bent. In essence, I've been told to "fake sincerity". My husband is a good example of an autistic person who is genuinely not in touch with his emotions a lot of the time; you can ask him in the middle of a full meltdown what the matter is, and he'll say "nothing, I'm fine". (I edited this post a bit when I realized that I was acting like some kind of armchair expert on your life; I apologize for that.) I certainly don't study this topic and your husband is welcome to say I don't know what I'm talking about; I'm not even male most of the time these days. But speaking as a random AMAB: Men, at least those I've known, are rarely taught to socialize by faking sincerity. We are usually indoctrinated to conceal sincerity, because we are viewed as innately violent beings and sincerity will be interpreted as a sign that we're about to hurt someone. When the typical man (again, in my experience) says "nothing, I'm fine," he's not expressing his emotions, he's expressing his threat level.And don't try to trick us by saying "no really, I care about how you're feeling!" We know you care about other people, women are awesome that way. But because you care you can be hurt, therefore we must focus on not hurting you, and now we're back to scanning for threats. Novel Threat Detected! It's Me! As Always! "...n-n-nothing! I'm fine!" Remember The Look? Tony was caught off guard and showed Annie a very sincere expression of sorrow. And Annie was startled, and Surma felt bound to reassure her that he was still Threat Level: Low, and a lot of readers went "oh my god, he's abusing his daughter with his Hate Vision." The rules are often different for the Menz. Jones is an honorary Menz, by virtue of her age and strength and invulnerability. People do not respond well to her sincerity either. (This is not to say you're wrong that Tony could work harder or smarter to improve his social skills; I don't feel confident on that one way or the other. I'm just arguing that acting more open is probably not his best strategy.) Annie does have the best smiles. When Annie's getting married, she will glance at her dad and smile. And he will glance at her and smile. And no one will notice.Eglamore will be like "dammit Tony, can't you even smile at your daughter's wedding?" and Idra will drag him off somewhere and Jones will hand her the codes to six Court-ordered minibars and ask if she requires anything else and Idra will smirk and say "nah love, my wood-shifting skills aren't that bad." Jones will be studiously Fine in response. |
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Post by SilverbackRon on May 29, 2021 0:15:21 GMT
I think this chapter will be more interesting and informative, and probably a lot less painful to read when I have at it all at one go, rather than spread out over weeks and months. But I am totally not ready to do that now.
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Post by csj on May 29, 2021 7:00:38 GMT
It's pretty amazing how healthy he looks compared to when he first appeared - I guess lying face down in the desert for 5 years and going "hnnnnsurmaaa" before getting scammed by etheric bugs will do that to someone. it was fun having that scene as a gag forum signature for years |
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Post by speedwell on May 30, 2021 13:12:55 GMT
And don't try to trick us by saying "no really, I care about how you're feeling!" We know you care about other people, women are awesome that way. But because you care you can be hurt, therefore we must focus on not hurting you, and now we're back to scanning for threats. Novel Threat Detected! It's Me! As Always! "...n-n-nothing! I'm fine!" |
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Post by silicondream on May 30, 2021 22:02:45 GMT
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Post by Gemminie on Jun 1, 2021 4:42:00 GMT
(Posted after a long Memorial Day weekend without reading anyone else's comments)
Annie is all tuckered out after a long day of ... doing something with Kat and Renard, and then justifying herself to Jones (and to whomever she may have been reporting to – I mean, we know, but Annie doesn't). It appears to be the same day, because she's wearing the same outfit she's been wearing for the entire chapter proper. Tony's sitting in his chair reading an actual real book. I remember those! Haha.
Tony gets up, no expression drawn on his face in that Tom style where he wants us to supply a face with our imaginations, or perhaps he's just too far away, or both. With just "Antimony ..." he seems to be about to continue.
Annie looks a bit taken aback. This isn't how he would usually react to such news. Normally he'd probably just nod. Or say "Yes." Or "I shall be retiring in 37 minutes."
Tony is saying, "Ellipsis." His expression is almost non-neutral, which probably means that inside, he's straining against those mind cage bars with all his psychic might.
Then, back to neutral face and only "Goodnight." He's put forth all the effort he can possibly muster, and that's what we get.
And true to what she explained earlier, Annie smiles and replies. She knows that was a great deal of effort for him, and it was more than he usually manages.
So again, no humongous changes to how Annie and Tony communicate in this chapter, but it does show that below the surface are two people who want to communicate but that there are barriers.
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