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Post by nobodyforever123 on May 7, 2021 13:05:47 GMT
I don’t quite understand what happened to the two Annies. She’s been firmly stated to have been shifted, once by Arbiter, and again by Brinne. It’s further stated none of the two belongs to the current timeline by arbiter. Later on Zimmy suggests she’s merely split. Then Zimmy does some magic and merges the two as we know. Looking at what’s stated, the only sort of explanation I can come up with is that the shifts occurred within the same dimension. Similar to what Kat did with the tic-toc bird. Although Arbiter stated none of the two belongs to this timeline, suggesting there are three dimensions and a third Annie? Arbiter stating this is an issue with temporal affairs while later the Norns implying it’s not one doesn’t help matter. There is two foreshadowing of at least one other dimension existing with a “dark Kat” in it. Perhaps there is two dimensions. A first where Annie didn’t survive the fall, initiating the loop. A second where this Annie got timeline shifted like the birds so fixing them would be a matter of merging the two by Zimmy. This wouldn’t explain why Arbiter said none of the two belonged in this timeline though. Unless it meant both are “desynced” and Zimmy “synced” them up again, merging the two. Thoughts? I’ve been wondering about this ever since the situation got “solved” and can’t wrap my head around it.
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V
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I just think it's a pity that she never wore these again.
Posts: 168
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Post by V on May 7, 2021 13:12:24 GMT
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Post by pyradonis on May 7, 2021 13:20:19 GMT
I spent perceived hours ranting about exactly this between the two chapters. "I can explain." "No...I understand." has become my most hated couple of panels in the whole comic.
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Post by nobodyforever123 on May 7, 2021 15:00:06 GMT
Same, I thought the Norns would've given more clues. And tbh was hoping for some cross dimension shenanigans to occur before the Annie situation got wrapped up. I spent perceived hours ranting about exactly this between the two chapters. "I can explain." "No...I understand." has become my most hated couple of panels in the whole comic. I wonder if this'll be another mystery left unsolved until years later like the tic tocs.
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Post by Gemminie on May 7, 2021 16:37:06 GMT
I don’t quite understand what happened to the two Annies. She’s been firmly stated to have been shifted, once by Arbiter, and again by Brinne. It’s further stated none of the two belongs to the current timeline by arbiter. Later on Zimmy suggests she’s merely split. Then Zimmy does some magic and merges the two as we know. It's confusing, and I can't pretend to know exactly what happened, but the way I read it at least, the Arbiter and Brinnie both seem to have seen that she was shifted and incorrectly assumed that that also explained why there were two of her. They should have thought for a moment and wondered why both of them were shifted, because if they had, they'd have realized that being from another timeline would explain why one of them was shifted, not both. But in the Arbiter's case, it wasn't his department, and he was there to deal with a different problem. In Brinnie's case, she seems to have just laughed it off as more Court craziness like she saw when she was in school there, and then they distracted her with a different issue. I think "shifted" means "from one timeline to another." But I'm listening anyway. Well, Kat seems to have a theory that the Tic-Toc splits off an alternate timeline when she uses it to change the past, and that there's an alternate Kat out there who was so distraught about losing Annie that she broke time to fix it, but Kat might be wrong. After all, when she sent the bird to show her parents the workshop, it didn't break time. The finding of the workshop just became a stable time loop. Wouldn't Kat's saving Annie have prevented her from being distraught enough to break time, if that's also a stable time loop? But that's another of the mysteries of this comic. That is a theory I've seen put forward, and it would explain why both Annies appear shifted, but we've seen no evidence that there's a third Annie anywhere, and it seems to be suggested, if not proven, that the Annies both appear "shifted" because of something that happened before there were two of them. Most likely it's the fact that Kat saved them with the Tic-Toc; they're not supposed to be here because they're supposed to be dead. The Interpreter says "not supposed to be here" instead of "shifted" when Kat asks which Annie doesn't belong. Another possibility is that their time loop wasn't closed yet – I really wish Brinnie had looked at the Annies after Kat rescued Annie in the past and told us whether they were still showing up as shifted. She was right there. Sigh. But again, this is not made clear and is still a big unanswered question. Well, the Arbiter isn't an expert on temporal affairs, while the Norns are. The Arbiter was basically saying, "It's not my job." So I think it does help matters. The Norns said that there were two Annies because of some reason not involving time. Yes, which makes me wonder whether Annie's rescue wasn't a stable time loop for some reason and that there's something to Kat's theory. This is unexplained. Will we see this alternate "dark Kat?" Or at least glimpse the alternate dark timeline she's from? What if Coyote broke the Tic-Toc before it could actually save Annie? What if she died, and the Annie who survived was actually from another timeline in which Kat did save her? Sure, Loup could have time-shifted Annie to make another Annie just as Kat did with the Tic-Toc(s), but that wouldn't really work, because it would mean that what actually happened was that somebody (Loup, Zimmy, whatever) sent one of the Annies back to the moment Forest Annie returned from the Forest, and Forest Annie doesn't have the memories of being Court Annie. (Or vice-versa.) In my opinion anyway, the easiest solution is that the Arbiter and Brinnie were wrong, that Annie's being "shifted" and her being duplicated are caused by two different things, and Kat and others made wrong assumptions based on those wrong assumptions. But Kat eventually came to the right conclusion – about something else (saving Annie from her fall in the past). What I think really happened was that Loup split Annie, who had already done things to split herself and might have learned how to do this herself eventually. Annie already sort of had a Forest Annie and a Court Annie inside her, one part that wanted to let her mother go but felt bad about it and another that didn't want to let her mother go but felt bad about it. What I'm speculating is that Zimmy didn't undo it – Annie did, after Zimmy showed her how. Loup's trick was really, really easy for a being with as much power as Loup to do to a being such as Annie, and Annie could have split herself if she'd known how at the time and wanted to. If this is right, then we may not have seen the last of Court Annie and Forest Annie; she might be able to split and combine herself again now, because Zimmy showed her how to understand herself better – she's a flame, and a flame can split and merge. But is this right? I guess we'll see.
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V
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I just think it's a pity that she never wore these again.
Posts: 168
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Post by V on May 7, 2021 17:49:32 GMT
Well, Kat seems to have a theory that the Tic-Toc splits off an alternate timeline when she uses it to change the past, and that there's an alternate Kat out there who was so distraught about losing Annie that she broke time to fix it, but Kat might be wrong. After all, when she sent the bird to show her parents the workshop, it didn't break time. The finding of the workshop just became a stable time loop. Wouldn't Kat's saving Annie have prevented her from being distraught enough to break time, if that's also a stable time loop? But that's another of the mysteries of this comic. I think this version is supported by the Norns' claim that Kat has visited them multiple times and the first time (if that's consistent with what's "usual") she was older. The time loop may be self-supporting now (which is why I don't understand why there should need be any "next time the loop happens", by the way) but from their point of view the first visit, which created it, is a reality that can't un-happen. What I think really happened was that Loup split Annie, who had already done things to split herself and might have learned how to do this herself eventually. Annie already sort of had a Forest Annie and a Court Annie inside her, one part that wanted to let her mother go but felt bad about it and another that didn't want to let her mother go but felt bad about it. What I'm speculating is that Zimmy didn't undo it – Annie did, after Zimmy showed her how. Loup's trick was really, really easy for a being with as much power as Loup to do to a being such as Annie, and Annie could have split herself if she'd known how at the time and wanted to. If this is right, then we may not have seen the last of Court Annie and Forest Annie; she might be able to split and combine herself again now, because Zimmy showed her how to understand herself better – she's a flame, and a flame can split and merge. But is this right? I guess we'll see. I love this theory!
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Post by foxurus on May 7, 2021 23:21:56 GMT
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Post by matoyak on May 8, 2021 2:07:12 GMT
My thought was this: 1. Annie dies falling off the bridge. (Gunnerkrigg Prime timeline) 2. Kat uses the Tictocs to save Annie, splitting the timeline but pulling Annie into Gunnerkrigg Prim timeline she originally died in (somehow) 3. Loup splits the timeline, and pulls Annie into Gunnerkrigg Prime from the new split (again, somehow). 4. Something Zimmy related (maybe not Zimmy herself?) combines the Annies. We still don't have the original Annie from Gunnerkrigg Prime...
Typing it out, dunno how well it actually works. Another thought is that whatever Loup did somehow broke the Arbiter's ability to check stuff and he was just flat-out wrong. /shrug. Dunno if we have the info to actually answer this at this point, unfortunately...
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Post by saardvark on May 8, 2021 2:51:04 GMT
How about this:
Annie is pushed off bridge by evil shadow-possessed Robot. Dies. Or was supposed to...
Kat sends tic-tocs back in time to rescue her. Stable time loop. Annie is saved. But Arbiter senses original timeline, *neither* Annie should be here - she should have died (never even becoming "they").
Loup splits Annie. He splits her personality, not bringing in a alternate timeline Annie or anything similar. Time dilation due to lack of Forest control by Loup introduces time shift for Forest Annie.
...hence Arbiter and Brinnie detect a "shift". But it is not a shift due to different timelines or time travel (like the tic-tocs), so the Norns say its not their department either.
does that solve all the ambiguities?
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Post by foxurus on May 8, 2021 4:04:44 GMT
Do we know for certain Annie died and wasn't just permanently injured (like losing her legs or something)? Could explain why Kat was still trying to save her when she was much older than she is now. Generally after about five years people are gonna accept that, while extremely painful and traumatic, their loved ones are dead and that's Just How It Is. I mean, she'd be bringing back a 12-year-old Annie, wouldn't she?
But I'm probably forgetting where the Norns confirmed that or something.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on May 8, 2021 5:51:50 GMT
One more fun thought: Antimony was pushed off the bridge because the Shadow Man didn't want her meddling. Was the Shadow Man aware Eglamore was en route? Probably so, but he probably wasn't aware that Eggers was about to whip out a sword and wing it. She would have been more useful as a hostage or cover. My best guess is that the Shadow Man didn't want Antimony slowing him down one way or other before he could make off with Renard. Antimony was a bit slow on the uptake at that moment and didn't look much like she was about to take decisive action, instead she starts to ask what is going on. It seems the alarm sound* from the 'Toc raised the tension for both/all of them at a critical moment. If the Toc hadn't been there it wouldn't have sounded that loud alarm and the Shadow Man might not have thought it necessary to push Antimony off the bridge to enhance his chances of escape. Does that mean that if there was no 'Toc, then Antimony wouldn't have fallen from the bridge? If yes, then the first 'Toc came from a timeline where a Kat actually caused (an) Antimony's death by sending the 'Toc back in time for some other (or no particular) reason, which mandated a loop occur to allow time to move forward, the simple paradox version of which we saw in the comic. *The alarm sound was a signal that Kat had the 'Toc emit to " localize the event." spoiler: The position of the 'Toc that presumably emitted the alarm sound suggests that it (the 'Toc that the Kat of this timeline) is the first 'Toc, which is strong evidence (though not conclusive) that it is the primary 'Toc and therefore the additional layer of paradox I've described doesn't exist.
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Post by nobodyforever123 on May 8, 2021 6:50:59 GMT
Similar to what Kat did with the tic-toc bird. Well, Kat seems to have a theory that the Tic-Toc splits off an alternate timeline when she uses it to change the past, and that there's an alternate Kat out there who was so distraught about losing Annie that she broke time to fix it, but Kat might be wrong. After all, when she sent the bird to show her parents the workshop, it didn't break time. The finding of the workshop just became a stable time loop. Wouldn't Kat's saving Annie have prevented her from being distraught enough to break time, if that's also a stable time loop? But that's another of the mysteries of this comic. The Kat time loop is another thing I wish we get a better explanation in the future. My biggest question mark is whether the bird was sent back to the same timeline/dimension/universe? Or if every time Kat sent one back, it created yet another separate timeline. On the former, most stories handle it with the affected characters ceases to exist. Annie lives, no dark Kat but causing the original dark Kat to just disappear. However creating a time paradox. On the latter, it would mean Kat could just stop the loop by not sending the bird back, thus no longer creating more timelines. I feel this makes more sense story wise as no time paradox is created, but does mean there's one original timeline where Annie did die and we might be meeting dark Kat one day. Two Kats and one Annie, sounds like fun! Anyways, what was this thread about? Oh right, the Annies. That's a really interesting take! Ticks all the boxes and makes more sense for what Zimmy said and did. Perhaps Arbiter and Brinnie weren't wrong, but simply detected the Annies were supposed to die but was prevented by a Kat. Thus being "shifted".
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Post by silicondream on May 8, 2021 7:16:23 GMT
How about this: Annie is pushed off bridge by evil shadow-possessed Robot. Dies. Or was supposed to... Kat sends tic-tocs back in time to rescue her. Stable time loop. Annie is saved. But Arbiter senses original timeline, *neither* Annie should be here - she should have died (never even becoming "they"). Loup splits Annie. He splits her personality, not bringing in a alternate timeline Annie or anything similar. Time dilation due to lack of Forest control by Loup introduces time shift for Forest Annie. ...hence Arbiter and Brinnie detect a "shift". But it is not a shift due to different timelines or time travel (like the tic-tocs), so the Norns say its not their department either. does that solve all the ambiguities? I think so, and I buy it. I don't know that Arbiter even actually "sensed" anything, other than both Annies somehow not being the original. Tom has emphasized in the video commentaries that many potential explanations for her twinning exist in this universe, and I suspect that Annie's personal flavor of multiplicity is so unique that even most other etherics don't really get it. (For instance, Coyote himself had trouble recognizing Annie when cut she away her Fire, even though she could still perceive and communicate with it.) They just know it's not something they're familiar with, so they shrug and make their best guess. , Do the Norns say anything to suggest that they recognize multiple timelines? I figured the multiple visits from Kat they were talking about are just in her future; there will be other times in her life when she recognizes the need to complete a time loop, and the tic-toc strategy is a proven solution for her now. Maybe she just consults historical archives and sends one back anytime a flock of weird birds did something important.
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Post by saardvark on May 8, 2021 11:53:54 GMT
How about this: Annie is pushed off bridge by evil shadow-possessed Robot. Dies. Or was supposed to... Kat sends tic-tocs back in time to rescue her. Stable time loop. Annie is saved. But Arbiter senses original timeline, *neither* Annie should be here - she should have died (never even becoming "they"). Loup splits Annie. He splits her personality, not bringing in a alternate timeline Annie or anything similar. Time dilation due to lack of Forest control by Loup introduces time shift for Forest Annie. ...hence Arbiter and Brinnie detect a "shift". But it is not a shift due to different timelines or time travel (like the tic-tocs), so the Norns say its not their department either. does that solve all the ambiguities? I think so, and I buy it. I don't know that Arbiter even actually "sensed" anything, other than both Annies somehow not being the original. Tom has emphasized in the video commentaries that many potential explanations for her twinning exist in this universe, and I suspect that Annie's personal flavor of multiplicity is so unique that even most other etherics don't really get it. (For instance, Coyote himself had trouble recognizing Annie when cut she away her Fire, even though she could still perceive and communicate with it.) They just know it's not something they're familiar with, so they shrug and make their best guess. , Do the Norns say anything to suggest that they recognize multiple timelines? I figured the multiple visits from Kat they were talking about are just in her future; there will be other times in her life when she recognizes the need to complete a time loop, and the tic-toc strategy is a proven solution for her now. Maybe she just consults historical archives and sends one back anytime a flock of weird birds did something important. Salsamel (thru Clippy) definitely sensed a "shift" www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2149he thinks its a timeline shift produced by Coyote www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2161but I'm suggesting it is just the time shift Loup induced, perhaps muddled with the fact that the Annies shouldn't be there (should have died at the bridge)... but that is the fault of Kat and her tic-toc air squadron. For once, Coyote stands accused of nefarious business, and is innocent!
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Post by saardvark on May 8, 2021 12:22:36 GMT
How about this: Annie is pushed off bridge by evil shadow-possessed Robot. Dies. Or was supposed to... Kat sends tic-tocs back in time to rescue her. Stable time loop. Annie is saved. But Arbiter senses original timeline, *neither* Annie should be here - she should have died (never even becoming "they"). Loup splits Annie. He splits her personality, not bringing in a alternate timeline Annie or anything similar. Time dilation due to lack of Forest control by Loup introduces time shift for Forest Annie. ...hence Arbiter and Brinnie detect a "shift". But it is not a shift due to different timelines or time travel (like the tic-tocs), so the Norns say its not their department either. does that solve all the ambiguities? I think so, and I buy it. I don't know that Arbiter even actually "sensed" anything, other than both Annies somehow not being the original. Tom has emphasized in the video commentaries that many potential explanations for her twinning exist in this universe, and I suspect that Annie's personal flavor of multiplicity is so unique that even most other etherics don't really get it. (For instance, Coyote himself had trouble recognizing Annie when cut she away her Fire, even though she could still perceive and communicate with it.) They just know it's not something they're familiar with, so they shrug and make their best guess. , Do the Norns say anything to suggest that they recognize multiple timelines? I figured the multiple visits from Kat they were talking about are just in her future; there will be other times in her life when she recognizes the need to complete a time loop, and the tic-toc strategy is a proven solution for her now. Maybe she just consults historical archives and sends one back anytime a flock of weird birds did something important. as for the Norns, all they say is www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2350its (the Annie split) not a temporal affair. Im suggesting that they, correctly, saw the Annie split as a split down a cleft of her personality, not a shifted Annie from another timeline(s). Salsamel and Brinnie both sensed the time dilation on F!Annie induced by Loup's sloppy forest control as a time shift, which it was of a sort (a time delay), just not the sort they were thinking.... Hmm, I think this is my new head-canon now ... at least until someone point out the logical hole in the argument!
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Post by blahzor on May 8, 2021 13:44:01 GMT
unreliable is the word the bird bird bird bird is the word everything is real til someone says it's real
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V
Full Member
I just think it's a pity that she never wore these again.
Posts: 168
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Post by V on May 8, 2021 20:07:18 GMT
How about this: Annie is pushed off bridge by evil shadow-possessed Robot. Dies. Or was supposed to... Kat sends tic-tocs back in time to rescue her. Stable time loop. Annie is saved. But Arbiter senses original timeline, *neither* Annie should be here - she should have died (never even becoming "they"). Loup splits Annie. He splits her personality, not bringing in a alternate timeline Annie or anything similar. Time dilation due to lack of Forest control by Loup introduces time shift for Forest Annie. ...hence Arbiter and Brinnie detect a "shift". But it is not a shift due to different timelines or time travel (like the tic-tocs), so the Norns say its not their department either. does that solve all the ambiguities? I think that the mystery that remains in this story is why the Arbiter would sense the "original" timeline, i.e., not the one that the discussion is happening in. Annie has her place here. All the continuity is consistent with her (or at least one of her) living to see this very point. She simply was saved by the Tic-Tocs, regardless of why they would do so, and even the question of their origin was "patched" by making the bird a mythical appearance "older than the Court". We know its origin, now, but the robots did not so they made this story in which they don't need to know its origin for its existence to be consistent. It's the situation we were in ourselves for tens of chapters. If we never learnt the story of who made them or why, there would be no paradox to resolve in the first place. (And that's the circumstance in which the discussion is taking place, too.) So, why "should" she not be in that timeline in which her being there is perfectly explicable, and a natural consequence of a consistent train of actions defining the observable past? I don't think accepting that the Arbiter would somehow peek into a different timeline than they are in, or let alone exist in there and only communicate with them here, is a viable option. That goes completely against anything that makes parallel timelines a thing in the first place. It makes no sense to know what's happening in another, even to know it exists, for anyone else than those explicitly involved in, or being told of, its creation. The only other option is for some super-being, like the Norns apparently, to be able to perceive all timelines indiscriminately. This does not seem be the case here because then the Arbiter or his assistant would not display the uncertainty they do. It would appear that the Arbiter somehow feels that the timeline this is happening in is paradoxical, possibly by being able to see the future. But then it's not a question of Annie not being meant to exist. No one, including him personally, should be there, because the timeline itself should not be possible.
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Post by pyradonis on May 8, 2021 21:59:09 GMT
Do we know for certain Annie died and wasn't just permanently injured (like losing her legs or something)? Could explain why Kat was still trying to save her when she was much older than she is now. Generally after about five years people are gonna accept that, while extremely painful and traumatic, their loved ones are dead and that's Just How It Is. I mean, she'd be bringing back a 12-year-old Annie, wouldn't she? But I'm probably forgetting where the Norns confirmed that or something. I just re-read the chapter, and the Norns only confirmed that Kat "saved" Annie.
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V
Full Member
I just think it's a pity that she never wore these again.
Posts: 168
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Post by V on May 8, 2021 21:59:45 GMT
I don't think accepting that the Arbiter would somehow peek into a different timeline than they are in, or let alone exist in there and only communicate with them here, is a viable option. (...) It makes no sense to know what's happening in another, even to know it exists, for anyone else than those explicitly involved in, or being told of, its creation. (Opinions on what makes sense and what does not may, of course, differ. What I'm assuming above is basically a fantasy-flavoured version of the Many Worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics. Especially the part that one timeline can't have access to any other, save godlike abilities. The existence of the epinomous many worlds is, simply put, experimentally unverifiable and undeniable. That's why they call it interpretation – it doesn't satisfy the prerequisites of being a theory. It's not at odds with the actual theory, no one can say it's right or wrong, and taking the view or not is basically a matter of personal preference. MWI is often portrayed as a crazy speculation but in fact in mathematical terms it's perfectly reasonable and self-supporting, and has a decent support in the scientific community, as far as opinions on it are concerned.) (I'm aware of the fact that they say in the comic that "normally there is no need for more than one timeline...", which kind of goes the opposite direction than MWI which, taken to the word, means an infinite number of timelines. But in fact this is what many-worldists would tell you, too – in the sense that you don't need more than one timeline ever to explain an observation. In this way the two claims are not contradictory: there may be infinitely many concurrent timelines, but normally you don't care about them because they won't affect you anyway, and why do more work than what's sufficient for the purpose.)
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yhbc
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Post by yhbc on May 9, 2021 3:15:56 GMT
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Post by silicondream on May 9, 2021 9:51:42 GMT
Understood. I’m just saying that the time aspect might also be pure speculation on his part, and “you’ve been shifted” might just be etheric-ese for “I can see two of you but I know there’s only one.” In fact, Coyote was gracious enough to complete the time loop for them. If the tic-toc had survived beyond Annie’s rescue, they would have a paradox which could only be resolved via multiple timelines. By destroying it, Coyote averted Kat’s nightmare scenario. I don't think accepting that the Arbiter would somehow peek into a different timeline than they are in, or let alone exist in there and only communicate with them here, is a viable option. That goes completely against anything that makes parallel timelines a thing in the first place. That depends on the conventions of your fiction, no? There are plenty of stories where an exceptionally perceptive character suddenly goes “This isn’t right… we’re not supposed to be here.” And then they must put right what once went wrong, etc. Yes, in reality any alternate worlds must be (mostly) non-interacting, ‘cuz we (usually) can’t see them. But in fiction, having them see or touch one another is usually the point. MWI is often portrayed as a crazy speculation but in fact in mathematical terms it's perfectly reasonable and self-supporting, and has a decent support in the scientific community, as far as opinions on it are concerned.) Indeed. It’s still less popular than the Copenhagen interpretation, but in my experience a lot of people who say “Copenhagen” mean “shut up and calculate.” (Not that my experience counts for much; my humble physics B.A. was a long, long time ago.) Personally, I’ve always favored MWI because wavefunction collapse sucks and non-locality sucks double. Alas, suckage is not an objective property. Not quite; you don’t need more than one timeline to explain classical observations. For the many-worldist, you absolutely do need multiple timelines to explain quantum interference effects; it’s just that you only ever notice them after they’ve converged back into one. Fire a photon at a double slit, your timeline splits in two. In each timeline it goes through a different slit. Make your measurement after it’s gone through, and the timelines reconverge--and now you remember both, which is why you can see the interference pattern between them. But if you add detectors to measure which slit the photon went through, the timelines stay split, and you stay split with them. Now neither version of you remembers both timelines, and neither sees an interference pattern. Quantum interference is producible only because one timeline can become many, and detectable only because many timelines can become one. But since humans rarely notice such effects, Clippy's "normally" line is even truer. And now we (probably) know why Coyote was so hardassed about making sure Annie didn’t mention it to anyone in the Forest.
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Post by saardvark on May 9, 2021 11:37:31 GMT
How about this: Annie is pushed off bridge by evil shadow-possessed Robot. Dies. Or was supposed to... Kat sends tic-tocs back in time to rescue her. Stable time loop. Annie is saved. But Arbiter senses original timeline, *neither* Annie should be here - she should have died (never even becoming "they"). Loup splits Annie. He splits her personality, not bringing in a alternate timeline Annie or anything similar. Time dilation due to lack of Forest control by Loup introduces time shift for Forest Annie. ...hence Arbiter and Brinnie detect a "shift". But it is not a shift due to different timelines or time travel (like the tic-tocs), so the Norns say its not their department either. does that solve all the ambiguities? I think that the mystery that remains in this story is why the Arbiter would sense the "original" timeline, i.e., not the one that the discussion is happening in. Annie has her place here. All the continuity is consistent with her (or at least one of her) living to see this very point. She simply was saved by the Tic-Tocs, regardless of why they would do so, and even the question of their origin was "patched" by making the bird a mythical appearance "older than the Court". We know its origin, now, but the robots did not so they made this story in which they don't need to know its origin for its existence to be consistent. It's the situation we were in ourselves for tens of chapters. If we never learnt the story of who made them or why, there would be no paradox to resolve in the first place. (And that's the circumstance in which the discussion is taking place, too.) So, why "should" she not be in that timeline in which her being there is perfectly explicable, and a natural consequence of a consistent train of actions defining the observable past? I don't think accepting that the Arbiter would somehow peek into a different timeline than they are in, or let alone exist in there and only communicate with them here, is a viable option. That goes completely against anything that makes parallel timelines a thing in the first place. It makes no sense to know what's happening in another, even to know it exists, for anyone else than those explicitly involved in, or being told of, its creation. The only other option is for some super-being, like the Norns apparently, to be able to perceive all timelines indiscriminately. This does not seem be the case here because then the Arbiter or his assistant would not display the uncertainty they do. It would appear that the Arbiter somehow feels that the timeline this is happening in is paradoxical, possibly by being able to see the future. But then it's not a question of Annie not being meant to exist. No one, including him personally, should be there, because the timeline itself should not be possible. Hmm, well the fact that the Arbiter (thru Clippy) makes the statement that "neither should be here" implies he has some information or sensation that is rather trans-normal - somehow he has the idea that two Annies being there is incorrect. How he arrived at this feeling/knowledge isn't clear, but it exists, and yes, it is rather a mystery. I suppose that perhaps having run into previous timeline issues before (due to Coyote or other playful super-beings toying with them), having to deal with contracts of ownership across timelines would be a (rather messy) thing he might have to deal with occasionally (grumble grumble), so some sense of "right and wrong" across timelines might be useful to a Demi-god-like Arbiter.
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V
Full Member
I just think it's a pity that she never wore these again.
Posts: 168
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Post by V on May 9, 2021 15:01:48 GMT
(I'm aware of the fact that they say in the comic that "normally there is no need for more than one timeline...", which kind of goes the opposite direction than MWI which, taken to the word, means an infinite number of timelines. But in fact this is what many-worldists would tell you, too – in the sense that you don't need more than one timeline ever to explain an observation. Not quite; you don’t need more than one timeline to explain classical observations. For the many-worldist, you absolutely do need multiple timelines to explain quantum interference effects; it’s just that you only ever notice them after they’ve converged back into one. Fire a photon at a double slit, your timeline splits in two. In each timeline it goes through a different slit. Make your measurement after it’s gone through, and the timelines reconverge--and now you remember both, which is why you can see the interference pattern between them. But if you add detectors to measure which slit the photon went through, the timelines stay split, and you stay split with them. Now neither version of you remembers both timelines, and neither sees an interference pattern. Quantum interference is producible only because one timeline can become many, and detectable only because many timelines can become one. But since humans rarely notice such effects, Clippy's "normally" line is even truer. Thanks for the input! I was being imprecise by not defining what I mean by timeline, as that is not a term used in the linked article. I'm sorry. I link them to measurement outcomes, so timelines taken in this sense only split when photons hit the screen (= interact with the macroscopic environment), decoherence plays its role and the "alternatives" become too dissimilar to ever recombine. While it's a pleasure to talk to you about physics, however, let's not hijack nobodyforever123's thread :-) I believe there's a message functionality here should anyone wish to dissect this in more detail! Funnily enough, no one can say this is completely unrelated to the comic after the double slit experiment made its actual cameo in it :-D I love GKC!
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Post by saardvark on May 9, 2021 15:22:03 GMT
While it's a pleasure to talk to you about physics, however, let's not hijack nobodyforever123's thread :-) I believe there's a message functionality should anyone wish to dissect this in more detail! Funnily enough, no one can say this is completely unrelated to the comic after the double slit experiment made its actual cameo in it :-D I love GKC!Magic lives in the quantum realm after all... or is it that the quantum realm seems like magic?
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Post by DonDueed on May 9, 2021 22:40:45 GMT
What Happened To the Annies, by DonDueed (which is me):
1. There was one Annie.
2. There were two Annies.
3. There was one Annie again.
4. ??
The End.
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Post by saardvark on May 10, 2021 0:03:50 GMT
What Happened To the Annies, by DonDueed (which is me): 1. There was one Annie. 2. There were two Annies. 3. There was one Annie again. 4. ?? The End. well, that's simple enough, why didn't we think of it before??
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Post by saardvark on May 10, 2021 0:05:17 GMT
I don’t quite understand what happened to the two Annies. She’s been firmly stated to have been shifted, once by Arbiter, and again by Brinne. It’s further stated none of the two belongs to the current timeline by arbiter. Later on Zimmy suggests she’s merely split. Then Zimmy does some magic and merges the two as we know. Looking at what’s stated, the only sort of explanation I can come up with is that the shifts occurred within the same dimension. Similar to what Kat did with the tic-toc bird. Although Arbiter stated none of the two belongs to this timeline, suggesting there are three dimensions and a third Annie? Arbiter stating this is an issue with temporal affairs while later the Norns implying it’s not one doesn’t help matter. There is two foreshadowing of at least one other dimension existing with a “dark Kat” in it. Perhaps there is two dimensions. A first where Annie didn’t survive the fall, initiating the loop. A second where this Annie got timeline shifted like the birds so fixing them would be a matter of merging the two by Zimmy. This wouldn’t explain why Arbiter said none of the two belonged in this timeline though. Unless it meant both are “desynced” and Zimmy “synced” them up again, merging the two. Thoughts? I’ve been wondering about this ever since the situation got “solved” and can’t wrap my head around it. ... and we have been remiss... a belated welcome to the forum, nobodyforever123!
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Post by nobodyforever123 on May 10, 2021 3:24:34 GMT
What Happened To the Annies, by DonDueed (which is me): 1. There was one Annie. 2. There were two Annies. 3. There was one Annie again. 4. ?? The End. And Kat had to be so distraught by all this? Smh... ... and we have been remiss... a belated welcome to the forum, nobodyforever123! Thank you! Been lurking for a while haha. Loving all the theories/interpretations! Certainly getting my head spinning even more so.
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Post by sebastian on May 10, 2021 9:19:02 GMT
How about this: Annie is pushed off bridge by evil shadow-possessed Robot. Dies. Or was supposed to... Kat sends tic-tocs back in time to rescue her. Stable time loop. Annie is saved. But Arbiter senses original timeline, *neither* Annie should be here - she should have died (never even becoming "they"). Loup splits Annie. He splits her personality, not bringing in a alternate timeline Annie or anything similar. Time dilation due to lack of Forest control by Loup introduces time shift for Forest Annie. ...hence Arbiter and Brinnie detect a "shift". But it is not a shift due to different timelines or time travel (like the tic-tocs), so the Norns say its not their department either. does that solve all the ambiguities? Re-reading the archive I found this comic that kinda support your theory: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2259In the image Zimmy's thought there is not someone picked from a different timeline, but of someone split in two.
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Post by silicondream on May 10, 2021 9:23:17 GMT
What Happened To the Annies, by DonDueed (which is me): 1. There was one Annie. 2. There were two Annies. 3. There was one Annie again. 4. ?? The End. QED! Let us illustrate this theory with an extremely simple visual diagram. The true nature of each question mark is obvious, therefore left as an exercise for the reader.
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