[2465] Look through Renard's eyes

[bedinsis]

Antimony explains it all.

EDIT: As people might have noticed, Mr. Siddell has updated the page description. This page was meant to be page 2465.

If the page is already in your cache and you want to see today's page, try visiting this page and refreshing if you are having troubles.

Also, a separate thread has been created for the linked page 2464. Use that for discussing that.

EDIT 2: Updated the thread title again.

EDIT 3: Updated the link.

[madjack]

Annie is actually... content?

This is new.

Edit: Good, but new.

[jda]

In which Annie(?)s eyes continue being purple

[maxptc]

This Annie's gimmick better not be understanding things and not explaining them.

[V]

Aaaaa... Annie, give some space to Jones! She was supposed to answer what other things people said :-D

Actually, I don't mind. I like your voice. [Ahem.] I like where this is going. Seems that she realized something that will help her be actually happy (not just manically clinging to any far resemblance of acceptance) in the company of her quiet father. She really looks so fine with the state of things. I'm excited!

Edit: By the way, interesting comparison between panel 2 here and the last two of #1907.

[dramastix]

I think she can see his struggle more clearly now. She may not understand the mind cage, per se, but I think she gets that he's doing the best he can.

Still grappling slightly with this more forgiving view of Anthony. His pathology and tragedy is certainly better understood, but he was horrible to Annie, unnecessarily so. I'm glad Annie is finding peace, but I think she would also be justified in carrying forward her anger at how she was treated. One can be glad of the better relationship without forgetting the abuses.

Also I'm pretty firmly in the "this is an artistic choice to depict the evening light" camp. Tom's not that opaque, but his art has gotten progressively more nuanced over the years.

[V]

May 7, 2021 7:04:44 GMT jda said:

In which Annie(?)s eyes continue being purple

I'm quite convinced that Tom uses exactly the same color for Annie's eyes as he does for her hairclip, which is most usually in the vicinity of #7fa2c8 (±1 in each channel). Here the hairclip is #8b9cc8: more red, less green. Interestingly, her hair and her skin are a tiny bit more blue than usual. All colors have changed, just with some of them it's more pronounced.

[djublonskopf]

He's almost certainly applied an "evening" tint to the entire page.

[blahzor]

Annie got 20/20 x 2 vision now. Can see the ether with Boxbot clarity

[basser]

Yo this girl freakin me out.

[guntherkrieg]

May 7, 2021 7:01:47 GMT bedinsis said:

Antimony explains it all.

Na na na-na na naaaa.

[guntherkrieg]

So Annie has learned to accept Tony (self-mutilating warts and all) rather than the other way around? Yep, that's the way to do it in real life, as unsatisfying as it tends to be.

[lisanela]

It would be hilarious if Annie went on a speech about her father and struggling with grief before going into the house and seeing Friendly Tony go "Annie I'm fine now! Jones gave me the most amazing advice! Really simple answer, never thought about it."

[Eversist]

May 7, 2021 7:14:38 GMT V said:

May 7, 2021 7:04:44 GMT jda said:

In which Annie(?)s eyes continue being purple

I'm quite convinced that Tom uses exactly the same color for Annie's eyes as he does for her hairclip, which is most usually in the vicinity of #7fa2c8 (±1 in each channel). Here the hairclip is #8b9cc8: more red, less green. Interestingly, her hair and her skin are a tiny bit more blue than usual. All colors have changed, just with some of them it's more pronounced.

Agree overall.

Tom used a color overlay on pages in this chapter, probably to imply lighting conditions. Same thing happened on the previously referenced Surma page, except that was a gradient so it was more intense on one of her eyes than the other.

I am incredibly doubtful there’s any plot significance here. I do enjoy the forum’s attention to detail, though.

[V]

THE UPDATE WAS A MISTAKE!

[philman]

So do we need to make a new thread for the actual Friday page, since the discussion so far is about what will be Monday's page?

Interesting that both worked fine enough that most people didn't think one was missing!

[madjack]

Huh, I guess that's why some people found the conversation a bit jarring.

Edit: That's actually not a bad idea. New thread for today?

[arf]

This hasn't happened since Lindsey's false start.
(Which was placed at the front of the buffer queue rather than the back). It appeared just after this, from memory. It seemed to work there! If nothing else, it put people in awe of Tom's buffer size.

[V]

May 7, 2021 11:48:24 GMT arf said:

This hasn't happened since Lindsey's false start.
(Which was placed at the front of the buffer queue rather than the back). It appeared just after this, from memory. It seemed to work there! If nothing else, it put people in awe of Tom's buffer size.

Haha, I sincerely hope it will take less than 20 pages to get there this time!

[pyradonis]

That means we will have to wait for the whole weekend just to see the other page again? NOOOOOOO!

[ctso74]

May 7, 2021 11:38:00 GMT philman said:

So do we need to make a new thread for the actual Friday page, since the discussion so far is about what will be Monday's page?

Interesting that both worked fine enough that most people didn't think one was missing!

Though, we will miss the opportunity to make time travel pun titles. Deja Two-Four-Six-Five?

[Daedalus]

Is it just me, or does this feel like Tom character shilling for Tony?

"He's so *understandable* now, now I see the man my mother loved..."

[silicondream]

May 7, 2021 7:12:07 GMT dramastix said:

I think she can see his struggle more clearly now. She may not understand the mind cage, per se, but I think she gets that he's doing the best he can.

And I think she knows that he sees her in the same light--which has always been the thing she wanted most from him.  She can live without hugs, but not without understanding.

Still grappling slightly with this more forgiving view of Anthony. His pathology and tragedy is certainly better understood, but he was horrible to Annie, unnecessarily so.

Well, Annie herself has never agreed that his offenses were unnecessary--even if the fiery part of her was infuriated by them. “I do this to protect you,” “I do this to teach/strengthen/improve you,” and “I keep secrets from you for your sake,” are very compelling justifications as far as she’s concerned. Consider how easily she reconciled herself to Ysengrin and Coyote’s brand of extremely tough love.

I suspect Annie is also realizing that the mind cage functions to preserve their parent-child relationship. After all, it's probably the main reason that Tony doesn’t react to her with that undercurrent (or raging torrent, in the etherics’ case) of romantic attraction that’s experienced by her mother’s other admirers. For now, seeing her as “NotSurma!Impostor/ /error//ABORT” is much healthier than seeing her as Surma.

Conversely, while Annie presumably hasn’t inherited Surma’s romantic feelings, she has a tendency to be childishly infatuated with her father--wanting to follow him everywhere, jealous of competitors for his attention, desperate to prove that she could be his Surma if she chose to. That’s a normal phase for children, but they usually grow out of it at a much earlier age, and Annie can’t define herself in her parents’ shadow.

If Tony wants to become the perfect father, his main challenge is to fall out of love with Surma and forget her as much as possible--at least when Annie’s around.

If Annie wants to become the perfect daughter, her main challenge is to stop modeling herself on Surma and forget her as much as possible--at least when Tony’s around.

And to the degree that they can’t forget Surma--or decide that they have a right or duty to preserve her memory--they’re always going to need a bit of mind cage. Slightly tragic, but that’s medieval romance for you. Compared to Arthur’s court or Florence of Rome or Eglamour of Artois, they’re getting off lightly.

I'm glad Annie is finding peace, but I think she would also be justified in carrying forward her anger at how she was treated.

Justified, yes, but I think it’s better for all parties if she chooses not to.

Annie, like Kat & Tony, has a unique and superhuman psychology. She sees through many eyes, perceives with many senses, speaks with multiple voices, thinks with multiple minds. That's nothing to be ashamed of, but part of maturing into her own divinity is understanding just how disorienting it can be for the people around her. Tony's an extreme case, but he's never going to be the only one--even Kat and Coyote can’t always handle it. There's a permanent gulf of understanding between her and most beings, and if she stays angry about that she’ll stay angry forever.

One can be glad of the better relationship without forgetting the abuses.

But Annie has never really felt that it was abuse. And viewing it as such might be more traumatic than helpful; we don’t all have the luxury to be that vulnerable. She has her own emotional defenses to maintain.

In a lot of ways, I think Annie’s in the same situation as some people I’ve known who were abused by someone weaker than them--men abused by physically smaller partners, for instance. Tony’s disabled, socially isolated, and an apparent pacifist. Annie has the powers and training of a second-tier X-Man, a dozen friends and allies who are at least as dangerous, and a fair amount of political protection from Coyote and even Loup. Tony’s no direct threat to her, except an emotional one--and even there, she has a whole stable of surrogate father figures who’d happily step in.

She can afford to be magnanimous with her father, and that can be very empowering. As well as very safe, and a temperamental Phoenix needs a way to be safe.

[beaukm]

Even with the two separate forum posts, I really can't tell if people are actually reacting to the CORRECT page or the NEXT one

[Gemminie]

May 9, 2021 3:53:33 GMT beaukm said:

Even with the two separate forum posts, I really can't tell if people are actually reacting to the CORRECT page or the NEXT one

All I can say is, I never saw the incorrectly posted next page, so I'm not going to be commenting on it until I can see it.

[silicondream]

May 9, 2021 3:53:33 GMT beaukm said:

Even with the two separate forum posts, I really can't tell if people are actually reacting to the CORRECT page or the NEXT one

My sympathies for any disorientation.  Are we inside the mind cage...or are you?
*Mentok noises*
Good thing it unlocks in 24 hours.

(On this thread, I'm reacting to both of them put together.)

[0o0f]

May 8, 2021 23:56:20 GMT silicondream said:

In a lot of ways, I think Annie’s in the same situation as some people I’ve known who were abused by someone weaker than them--men abused by physically smaller partners, for instance. Tony’s disabled, socially isolated, and an apparent pacifist. Annie has the powers and training of a second-tier X-Man, a dozen friends and allies who are at least as dangerous, and a fair amount of political protection from Coyote and even Loup. Tony’s no direct threat to her, except an emotional one--and even there, she has a whole stable of surrogate father figures who’d happily step in.

She can afford to be magnanimous with her father, and that can be very empowering. As well as very safe, and a temperamental Phoenix needs a way to be safe.

I was thinking about this earlier, that part of why Annie cut herself off from her rage was that she thought she might be at risk of killing him otherwise. She know from past experience how bad losing control of her emotions can be, even if she didn't admire her father as much as she does it's something she would want to avoid. Although she has gained more control of her powers now it likely has to do with coming at peace with a lot of the rage she was feeling.

I kinda agree her being so understanding isn't entirely satisfying, but it does seem in character for her.

(LAUGHING ON LINE, I don't think I saw the other page so I can't wait 'till Monday to see what people were talking about =P)

[dramastix]

May 8, 2021 23:56:20 GMT silicondream said:

And I think she knows that he sees her in the same light--which has always been the thing she wanted most from him.  She can live without hugs, but not without understanding.

Well, Annie herself has never agreed that his offenses were unnecessary--even if the fiery part of her was infuriated by them. “I do this to protect you,” “I do this to teach/strengthen/improve you,” and “I keep secrets from you for your sake,” are very compelling justifications as far as she’s concerned. Consider how easily she reconciled herself to Ysengrin and Coyote’s brand of extremely tough love.

I suspect Annie is also realizing that the mind cage functions to preserve their parent-child relationship. After all, it's probably the main reason that Tony doesn’t react to her with that undercurrent (or raging torrent, in the etherics’ case) of romantic attraction that’s experienced by her mother’s other admirers. For now, seeing her as “NotSurma!Impostor/ /error//ABORT” is much healthier than seeing her as Surma.

But Annie has never really felt that it was abuse. And viewing it as such might be more traumatic than helpful; we don’t all have the luxury to be that vulnerable. She has her own emotional defenses to maintain.

In a lot of ways, I think Annie’s in the same situation as some people I’ve known who were abused by someone weaker than them--men abused by physically smaller partners, for instance. Tony’s disabled, socially isolated, and an apparent pacifist. Annie has the powers and training of a second-tier X-Man, a dozen friends and allies who are at least as dangerous, and a fair amount of political protection from Coyote and even Loup. Tony’s no direct threat to her, except an emotional one--and even there, she has a whole stable of surrogate father figures who’d happily step in.

She can afford to be magnanimous with her father, and that can be very empowering. As well as very safe, and a temperamental Phoenix needs a way to be safe.

I don't actually disagree with any of this. Narratively, it fits with Annie's personality that she would find a way to forgive him. And I'm glad he's turning out to be a more complex character than initially supposed - it certainly makes for a more engaging story, and all things considered I'm mostly falling on the side of hoping their relationship improves. 

I think my problem is more with the narrative decisions that led here. A perfectly valid way of handling people who have traumatized one in the past (regardless of whether she views it as "abuse," she was traumatized by his return and his subsequent behavior) is to remove them from one's life, for as long as is necessary. I feel like that option is under-represented in literature, and gives the abusers more agency than they deserve. It shouldn't be the responsibility of the survivor to forgive the abuser in order to achieve closure. If that happens, woohoo, but just because someone is sorry for what they did doesn't mean the default should be that all is forgiven. And it would be refreshing to see that point of view for once. 

Kat's 180 bothers me for the same reason, but she's like... what, 15? 16, at this point? She may be a brilliant demigod-in-the-making, but still doesn't have a fully formed frontal lobe. 

[theonethatgotaway]

I gotta say, I was VERY confused this morning when the comic page wouldn't update... I got there in the end.

To the point of the comic, I'm afraid she's going too fast towards forgiveness? I mean, the word's not out yet, but it feels that way. Tony may have his reasons to be a penile appendage to her, but not to others (where others include a different version of her), for reasons. That doesn't stop him being an actual penile appendage.

[Gemminie]

Annie looks wistful in the first panel, which is drawn from a high perspective, as if the camera is above her, looking down. She confirms once again that he goes mind-cagey around her now that she's Recombined Annie. And she's coming to grips with the fact that she likely won't see the real Tony ever again.

Then she also confirms that Tony can be himself when alone with Renard. She confirms yet again that she's the only exception to the rule that he can only be himself around one other person. And still that smile on her face.

New information in the next panel: while facing away from Jones and giving us a closeup, she says she could look through Renard's eyes and get a glimpse of the real Tony. I don't think we knew before that she could look through Renard's eyes now that he's her familiar. Again, though, that smile while saying something that I'd think would be frustrating. She can get a tantalizing glimpse of her real father in the way she describes, but she still can't interact with him.

Facing away from both Jones and us, she says that now that she's recombined, she doesn't have to look through Renard's eyes. Doesn't have to ... in order to do what exactly? And she's getting vague again. She was mistaken. About what, Annie, and in what way?

The camera moves again to see her face; she's looking off into the distance, once again with that wistful expression. She says she didn't understand what she was seeing. This is the final panel, so this will probably lead into whatever she says next. I certainly hope she explains. Does she mean that she was mistaken and that the real Tony isn't what she was seeing; does she now think incorrectly that the mind-caged Tony is the real Tony? Or does she now think that the real Tony is the one who's mistakenly seeing Surma when he looks at her? That is, does she now have an accurate conception of the situation, or not? I mean, it's possible to have a moment of clarity that turns out to be completely off-base. I'm still confused about where she's going with this train of thought, so we'll have to see next time.

There's not one word from Jones on this page. She's letting Annie monologue, observing all the while, as befits the Wandering Eye. I wonder what conclusions she's coming to regarding Annie's sanity. It would seem that Annie's coming to accept that her relationship with her father will have that mind cage in the way once again, indefinitely. But as Jones might say, acceptance of what one cannot change is a sign of maturity.