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Post by todd on May 2, 2021 1:42:38 GMT
Some thoughts I've had, based on much recent discussion about the Court, its actions, and its organization.
The Court has a dark history, from what we know of it. Its leaders have engaged in a lot of duplicitous schemes, including the murder of Jeanne and her lover, deceiving Renard in order to capture him, and all manner of cover-ups and manipulations.
I’ve mentioned this before, but it has often reminded me of C. S. Lewis’ “scientist-villains” – Weston from Out of the Silent Planet, N.I.C.E. from That Hideous Strength, Andrew Ketterley from The Magician’s Nephew. It has certainly echoed them in many ways: willingness to go to any lengths to achieve a goal it obsessively pursues, a nebulous organization (it’s outdone N.I.C.E. here; the reader of That Hideous Strength was at least able to figure out the Institute’s organization and chain of command, while over eight books in, we still don’t know who’s really at the top in the Court and whether the Headmaster is one of the genuine leaders or just a front-man), etc. It would certainly share with Andrew Ketterley the belief that “Ours is a high and lonely destiny”.
But there is one important difference between the Court and Lewis’s “scientist-villains”. Lewis’s “scientist-villains” (particularly N.I.C.E.) were driven by a lust for power and domination; science was, to them, just a means of providing them with the tools of achieving their goals. The Court is more truly scientific; its goal (from what we’ve been able to gather) is to explain how the ether works scientifically. There’s no sign that it intends to use the ether and the power that would come from controlling it to do anything, let alone dominate the Earth. I doubt that the Court has thought beyond figuring out what the “scientific equation” is for the ether.
The evidence indicates that the Court’s dark deeds stem more from its troubles with the Forest; it’s grown to fear the Forest to the point that, in its fear, it’ll stoop to anything to keep itself safe from the denizens of Gilltie Wood. Murder, deception, treachery, anything in their eyes is justified to keep the forest-folk out. Even their actions towards their own (such as the surveillance on the students) apparently stem from their fear – almost to a level of paranoia – of the Forest, which in their eyes demands complete control.
But the forest-folk have similar motivations. The Court’s experiments with the ether are, in some unspecified way, threatening the Forest, threatening to undo Coyote’s preservation of it. Loup, at least, is motivated by this fact to seek the Court’s downfall. Presumably the rest of the forest-folk who’ve attacked the Court are driven by the same fears. (The one element that makes this last sentence doubtful is that Annie, despite her many visits to the Forest – even spending an entire summer there – doesn’t learn how the Court’s actions are undermining Gilltie Wood until her first conversation with Loup. But certainly something seems to have driven the forest-folk on to attack the Court all the way back in the time of Sir Young and Diego, and this fear of what Gunnerkrigg might do to it seems the likeliest explanation. Tom might have held back the revelation for dramatic effect over real-like probability.) Certainly, if the Court is justified in murdering Jeanne and her lover to keep itself safe from the Forest, Loup is justified in assaulting the Court to protect the Forest, his home and charge, from the Court.
So we have a situation where both sides – understandably – fear each other (at least, those members of both sides who give serious thought to the other). The Court bears more blame, if its decision to carry out those experiments is indeed the root of the trouble (though the Forest is far from guiltless); presumably, without its carrying out those experiments, the forest-folk would not have been motivated to attack Gunnerkrigg.
The Court’s project may have influenced it in other ways. It must have become clear early on that achieving its goal of explaining the ether would take many generations, that it wouldn’t be achieved in the lifetime of Sir Young and Diego. Hence, the need to train their successors – the likeliest purpose of the school at the Court. Its primary objective here is to turn out the next generation of experimenters, who have to have the right mind-set. Thus, they have to be willing to follow their forebears in this obsession, to dare such a dangerous enterprise (all the more dangerous because of the hints in the comic of unpleasant side effects to these tamperings with the ether). In turn, this means ensuring the kind of mentality among the schoolchildren that will encourage them to engage in hazardous adventures; the Court could try teaching them caution and safety, the kind of outlook that would decide not to explore the Court’s forbidden areas or sneak out of their rooms at night – but it might teach them too well, whereupon they’d decide that the Omega Device, the power station, and the rest of the Court’s projects seemed like a bad idea and be unwilling to participate in them when they grew up. The disadvantages of the schoolchildren inadvertently stirring up trouble through their escapades would seem a necessary price to pay for ensuring that the next generation will have that “dare the forbidden” outlook of a mad scientist necessary to completing the Court’s objectives.
We can assume that the Court doesn’t encourage conventional morality and ethics, either – beyond “Don’t get caught cheating or rule-breaking”; it can’t afford the next generation protesting “These schemes to deal with the Forest are wrong. I won’t do them”. And the “Don’t get caught” outlook will come in handy when the students grow up and may need to keep the latest dark deeds secret. In the Court’s eyes (assuming it’s considered these drawbacks) a necessary price to pay to achieve its objective. (Most of the students and even teachers do show much decency, of course, in spite of this upbringing. And the fact that Jones chooses to stay at the Court and work with it is certainly a sign that it can’t be too corrupt.)
From this standpoint, the Court, for all its scheming, might be a victim of its plans – a prisoner of its own fears and passions. Underneath its high-tech wonders, it is trapped, and that trap is of its own making.
The Court’s arrogance has helped fashion this trap; it looks down upon the forest-folk, regarding them as mere talking beasts and savages. It has just managed to agree to diplomatic relations with them, if regarding such things as beneath its dignity. But it does not seem to have learned enough from those meetings. (This may be partly the Forest’s fault; as Jones pointed out, the forest-folk would rather engage in shows and threats of force than serious negotiation. Certainly there is no sign that the forest-folk have even pointed out the Court the consequences that its experiments would have on Gilltie Wood. Though I admit that the Court might not care – and after the recent outbreak of hostility under Loup, might even welcome the possibility that the breakthrough in explaining the ether could wipe out those troublesome neighbors. The Forest being run by an amoral trickster like Coyote – who has his own agenda – can’t have helped matters either.)
The root of the conflict, from the evidence, is the Court’s quest to scientifically explain the ether. (Given the belligerent nature of some of the forest-folk, such as Ysengrin’s Army, there might have been trouble even if the Court had left the ether alone, but not as much.) As long as the Court embarks on it, the Forest will fear it – with good reason – and try to stop it from achieving that goal, to avoid whatever fate might await it if the Court succeeds. The best that the Court can hope for is an uneasy truce. Even if it succeeded in taking care of Loup, there’d be others in Gilltie Wood who would feel threatened by the Court, and continue the war.
The best hope for genuine peace between the two “nations” would be for the Court to abandon its project. (The more hostile forest-folk might still hold a grudge, perhaps arguing that the Court should pay for everything it’s already done to the Forest, maybe also craving the adventure of a war – assuming that their tastes of Annie’s fire and other defenses haven’t cured them of eagerness for fighting – but that’s another matter.) And, of course, it’s unlikely that the Court would agree to that – all the more so since, from the evidence, it’s almost achieved that goal. Give up, just as you’re about to attain what so many generations have labored for? Never!
From that perspective, it might seem that the best outcome for the war is another “cold war phase” – at worst, either the Court destroying the Forest, the Forest destroying the Court, or the two sides annihilating each other, Ragnarok-fashion. An ending which would not match the tone of the webcomic, which, despite some grim moments, has shown a preference for (eventual) peaceful resolution of conflicts, and making it clear that both the Court and the Forest have failings and virtues alike; neither polity is all-good or all-bad. A different story could allow one side to destroy the other (interpreting the fall of the Forest as “humanity delivered from archaic, superstitious forces” or the fall of the Court as “the just punishment of hubris”, much like the destruction of N.I.C.E. in That Hideous Strength), but this would not fit the webcomic’s tone.
Which makes the recent revelation that Kat will steer the Court onto a better path so important – it offers a solution to the quarrel that would harmonize with the atmosphere of the comic. If Kat offers the Court an alternative to its present project – one which would not endanger the Forest – then peace, genuine peace, becomes a possibility.
It wouldn’t be easy, of course (though in a good story, such an achievement shouldn’t be easy). So close to success, the Court would be reluctant to let go of its old objective. Kat would have to have discovered something great indeed, to balance that loss – something even more exciting than codifying the ether.
Kat’s embarked on two great projects already – the robots and time travel – but I’m not certain that either one will be the one that offers a higher alternative to the Court’s investigating the ether. The robot project seems beneficial almost exclusively to the robots (indeed, I wonder whether the Court would be uneasy about it, seeing it as an undesired – from its perspective – emancipation of its servants). As for time travel – even with the evidence pointing to “time travel in the Gunnerkrigg Universe confirms the past, rather than changing it” – I’m still doubtful about it being a good idea to give the Court access to that. But Kat’s young still, and could easily make a third great discovery in the chapters to come – the discovery that could save the Court, save it from not only the Forest, but from its own fear and suspicion and the temptations that stem from those fears and suspicions.
This development will be worth looking forward to, and reading.
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Post by silicondream on May 2, 2021 2:06:30 GMT
There are other potential polarities which might rule the future, as well. Just look where Kat's friendships don't extend.
Team Kat is based on mutual service.
Team Fat And Stupid Mothrebugsyng Faerie is based on mutual appreciation.
Team Humelf is based on mutual survival.
Team Ysengrrr is Based.
The Grzimek house plays on no team, but nods to them all from afar in the night. Wha'u'lookinat?
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Post by Gemminie on May 2, 2021 2:46:10 GMT
I’ve mentioned this before, but it has often reminded me of C. S. Lewis’ “scientist-villains” – Weston from Out of the Silent Planet, N.I.C.E. from That Hideous Strength, Andrew Ketterley from The Magician’s Nephew. Yes! The Court reminds me of the N.I.C.E. a lot. You may have something there. I had always wondered about this scene, though. It makes me wonder whether Something happens to kids who turn into adults at the Court. "Our time has passed?" Perhaps once they establish a role for themselves, they're stuck in that role and the Court won't allow them to change careers? Maybe just because the Court's now dependent on your role, so if you left it, something bad would happen? In this case I'm thinking that if Anja and Don quit, her computer and the wards and shields it can produce would be lost (in the sense that no one would have access). I'd say the Court might lose the ability to prevent Renard from possessing somebody, except Jack used the anti-Renard symbol, and apparently there's one tattooed on James too. It's not a guarantee that those would work without Anja's computer. Perhaps Jack hacked the computer, or perhaps the symbol works without it. I'm not sure that time travel is a "project." Kat got to do it once, and we have no guarantee that the Norns will allow her to do it again in this timeline. The Norns say that they've met Kat many times, with the caveat that the past and the future are fluid concepts to them (paraphrasing), but does that mean that Kat will see them again in this timeline, or in other timelines, or both? Is it one Norn visit per timeline? Or is there only one timeline with multiple visits? Or somewhere in between? We don't know. But even if there will be more Norn visits in this timeline, I don't think Kat can give the Court access to it – the Norns are the ones who decide whether someone gets to use the magic time pool, not Kat. I have a general speculation that the end of the story will involve the Court and the Forest merging and becoming a place where all creatures can live; in other words, the two extremes will find balance. I think Kat and Annie are going to be the ones who lead them there. Clearly there's a long way to go before that happens. |
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Post by todd on May 2, 2021 12:51:19 GMT
I’ve mentioned this before, but it has often reminded me of C. S. Lewis’ “scientist-villains” – Weston from Out of the Silent Planet, N.I.C.E. from That Hideous Strength, Andrew Ketterley from The Magician’s Nephew. Yes! The Court reminds me of the N.I.C.E. a lot. Yes. The chief difference, as I mentioned above, is that the Court really is a scientific organization, while N.I.C.E. only pretended to be one (and its scientific facade was devoted mainly to the "soft sciences" like sociology, while the Court is focused on the hard sciences). I certainly cannot imagine the Court, even at its worst, assuming dictatorial control over a small university town, for example. (At least, not the kind that N.I.C.E. exercised over Edgestow.) Good point on Kat's access to time travel depending on the cooperation of the Norns, which further rules it out as the new direction she'll offer the Court. Though, since I also doubt that the robot project will be that one, I still suspect it's most likely something that hasn't been introduced into the comic yet. |
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Post by sebastian on May 2, 2021 14:06:20 GMT
Kat's project could bring some very interesting development.
She use artificial bodies and conscience transference to replace robot bodies with more organic-like ones, but if the process could be applied to humans, which is the logical progression,IMHO, it could bring to virtual immortality, and how would the Guides feel about that, mmh!? If people stop dying what will will keep the world spinning?
I don't know if this will be examined in the comic, or if is already considered someway (are the psycopomps plots connected to this someway?) or simply Tom will not go there at all, but it is worth considering.
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Post by todd on May 3, 2021 0:13:51 GMT
Kat's project could bring some very interesting development. She use artificial bodies and conscience transference to replace robot bodies with more organic-like ones, but if the process could be applied to humans, which is the logical progression,IMHO, it could bring to virtual immortality, and how would the Guides feel about that, mmh!? If people stop dying what will will keep the world spinning? I don't know if this will be examined in the comic, or if is already considered someway (are the psycopomps plots connected to this someway?) or simply Tom will not go there at all, but it is worth considering. The potential tensions with the Guides you mention would argue against this being the way that Kat will redirect the Court onto a better path (it'd be simply swapping conflict with one group of etheric beings for another). |
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Post by sebastian on May 3, 2021 7:30:15 GMT
Kat's project could bring some very interesting development. She use artificial bodies and conscience transference to replace robot bodies with more organic-like ones, but if the process could be applied to humans, which is the logical progression,IMHO, it could bring to virtual immortality, and how would the Guides feel about that, mmh!? If people stop dying what will will keep the world spinning? I don't know if this will be examined in the comic, or if is already considered someway (are the psycopomps plots connected to this someway?) or simply Tom will not go there at all, but it is worth considering. The potential tensions with the Guides you mention would argue against this being the way that Kat will redirect the Court onto a better path (it'd be simply swapping conflict with one group of etheric beings for another). Kat could use it as a bargaining chip against the guides to get Annie out of the deal with them. "you leave Annie alone and I don't put you out of a job"  |
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Post by todd on May 4, 2021 0:06:34 GMT
After a bit more thought and reviewing the comic, I'd like to modify my earlier analysis on the forest-folk's feud with the Court.
While the Court somehow threatening the ether with its big project appears the root of the problem, as I've mentioned, Annie first learns about it only in her first meeting with Loup. She's visited the Forest many times before, even spent an entire summer there, and yet this is the first time anyone mentions it to her. Which seems strange if this is general knowledge in Gilltie Wood.
Also, the way a lot of the forest-folk respond towards the Court suggests they don't know about the danger it poses to them. The fairies, the animals, the Tree Elves, all seem reasonably friendly towards Annie, Andrew, and Parley; some even want to go through the process of getting new bodies and moving to the Court, which would be unlikely if they really did see it as the Forest's potential bane. (Unless they saw it as the only way of escaping annihilation once the Court activates the Omega Device, and there's no suggestion of that; it certainly doesn't match the mood of those scenes, like the fairy and the rabbit.)
In fact, the active hostility towards the Court seems to be confined to Ysengrin/Loup, Ysengrin's army, and the shadow-folk. We don't know, however, for certain whether any of them, apart from Loup, are aware that whatever the Court's up to is somehow detrimental to the Forest. Ysengrin may have been unaware of it until he became Loup (presumably realizing it from having gained most of Coyote's knowledge after killing him); before, his anger was based more on Coyote's statement that the etheric beings were all the creations of the human imagination, which he found insulting. (He also seemed to be angry at the human race in general, suggesting that his hostility towards the Court stemmed more from its humans being the nearest to the Forest, and thus the ones easiest to attack, over anything specific about the Court.)
We don't know enough about Ysengrin's army to know whether they suspect that the Court's projects pose a danger to the Forest or not. They seem a belligerent lot, and might be attacking as much out of a warlike disposition as out of seeing a specific threat from the Court. The shadow-folk have a hatred for technology, we've learned, but we know no further details.
Certainly, the Forest seems to have been especially hostile towards the Court in the early days, enough to convince the Court leadership that murdering Jeanne and turning her into a ghost-guardian was a good idea. We don't know the details as yet, however, and precisely what motivated them. Did they recognize danger in the Court's desire to scientifically define the ether, or did it stem from other causes (say, thinking that the humans of the Court had overstayed their welcome and were abusing the Forest's hospitality)? Certainly if the problem that the Court was potentially causing was common knowledge in Gilltie back then, it no longer seems to be now.
But certainly Loup's motivated by this threat, and he's the biggest threat from the Forest at present, which makes the Court's project at the root of the current stage of the conflict.
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Post by mturtle7 on May 4, 2021 19:21:09 GMT
After a bit more thought and reviewing the comic, I'd like to modify my earlier analysis on the forest-folk's feud with the Court. While the Court somehow threatening the ether with its big project appears the root of the problem, as I've mentioned, Annie first learns about it only in her first meeting with Loup. She's visited the Forest many times before, even spent an entire summer there, and yet this is the first time anyone mentions it to her. Which seems strange if this is general knowledge in Gilltie Wood. Also, the way a lot of the forest-folk respond towards the Court suggests they don't know about the danger it poses to them. The fairies, the animals, the Tree Elves, all seem reasonably friendly towards Annie, Andrew, and Parley; some even want to go through the process of getting new bodies and moving to the Court, which would be unlikely if they really did see it as the Forest's potential bane. (Unless they saw it as the only way of escaping annihilation once the Court activates the Omega Device, and there's no suggestion of that; it certainly doesn't match the mood of those scenes, like the fairy and the rabbit.) In fact, the active hostility towards the Court seems to be confined to Ysengrin/Loup, Ysengrin's army, and the shadow-folk. We don't know, however, for certain whether any of them, apart from Loup, are aware that whatever the Court's up to is somehow detrimental to the Forest. Ysengrin may have been unaware of it until he became Loup (presumably realizing it from having gained most of Coyote's knowledge after killing him); before, his anger was based more on Coyote's statement that the etheric beings were all the creations of the human imagination, which he found insulting. (He also seemed to be angry at the human race in general, suggesting that his hostility towards the Court stemmed more from its humans being the nearest to the Forest, and thus the ones easiest to attack, over anything specific about the Court.) We don't know enough about Ysengrin's army to know whether they suspect that the Court's projects pose a danger to the Forest or not. They seem a belligerent lot, and might be attacking as much out of a warlike disposition as out of seeing a specific threat from the Court. The shadow-folk have a hatred for technology, we've learned, but we know no further details. Certainly, the Forest seems to have been especially hostile towards the Court in the early days, enough to convince the Court leadership that murdering Jeanne and turning her into a ghost-guardian was a good idea. We don't know the details as yet, however, and precisely what motivated them. Did they recognize danger in the Court's desire to scientifically define the ether, or did it stem from other causes (say, thinking that the humans of the Court had overstayed their welcome and were abusing the Forest's hospitality)? Certainly if the problem that the Court was potentially causing was common knowledge in Gilltie back then, it no longer seems to be now. But certainly Loup's motivated by this threat, and he's the biggest threat from the Forest at present, which makes the Court's project at the root of the current stage of the conflict. I think a typical attitude towards the Court by Forest people is shown in the Annie in the Forest side story: they have a vague sense that it's supposed to be kind of evil, void of life, and full of spooky dangerous humans & metal thingies, but hey it's not like they've ever *seen* it, so who are they to judge? Humans are presumably still people, after all, just like anybody else. And supposedly humans care a lot about how smart you are? Who knows, man. Who even knows. Those mediums seem cool though.
Although, both Snuffle and the kids at the party were...well, kids, so it's possible there's a bit of a generational gap. Like, it's traditional for Forest folk to be enemies of humans, but recent generations are just too cool and rebellious for that sort of thing.
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Post by todd on May 4, 2021 23:47:55 GMT
One thing I'll say about the Forest; at least the forest-folk who are attacking the Court are the ones who really seem to hate it. I haven't seen any sign yet (if such a moment in "Gunnerkrigg Court" has already taken place, please let me know) of them trying to force the more peaceful forest-folk into taking part in the offensives.
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Post by pyradonis on May 5, 2021 11:53:58 GMT
Certainly, the Forest seems to have been especially hostile towards the Court in the early days, enough to convince the Court leadership that murdering Jeanne and turning her into a ghost-guardian was a good idea. We don't know the details as yet, however, and precisely what motivated them. Did they recognize danger in the Court's desire to scientifically define the ether, or did it stem from other causes (say, thinking that the humans of the Court had overstayed their welcome and were abusing the Forest's hospitality)? Certainly if the problem that the Court was potentially causing was common knowledge in Gilltie back then, it no longer seems to be now. The Court was founded in what was once the heart of Gillitie wood. Look how gigantic, grey and devoid of life except for humans and patches of green (with robotic animals) it has become now. The fake Seed Bismuth said it began to overtake the forest. Of course not everything it said was true, but some was - and this part fits well with what Jones said. Finally, in Jeanne's memories we see glimpses of the Court being already huge during the time of the Founders. In just one generation it became so big, overtaking so much of the Forest. It is not hard to imagine many of the Forest's denizens felt threatened, feared that in time nothing of their forest would be left, and were of the opinion that "this is not what we had in mind when we offered them a place to live". Some will have become aggressive, showing who's place this was, by posturing and baring their teeth, as is the way of the animal kingdom. The humans, in turn felt threatened by this and conflict broke out. Coyote arrived and divided the two sides, each of them destroying what was left of the other on their side, a great way to divide them further from each other. Ysengrin meanwhile must have felt his prejudices against humans confirmed, and his rage boiled up against those creatures who denied him, his kin, and his God any respect. I think this made him hate these humans much more than, say, average medieval villagers who would back off, cower or run away in terror at seeing a powerful mythical creature before themselves.
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Post by todd on May 5, 2021 12:48:35 GMT
A very good analysis, pyradonis, and you brought up a few points that I'd forgotten about, such as the rapid "out of control" spread of the Court. (That one can't have been good for Forest-Court relations, especially in light of how it would have come across. If the humans in the Court intended the Court to spread that much, that makes them appear a deliberate menace, bent on destroying the Forest. If they didn't intend it, that might be worse; it suggests that they're inept bunglers who might destroy the place without intending to. Either way, the Court humans come across as a threat.)
I've suspected as well that Coyote's creating the divide may have worsened the problem in some ways; while it made it harder for both sides to fight each other directly, it might have helped build an atmosphere of distrust and "Us vs. Them", keeping it festering so that, when Loup finally attacked the Court and encouraged those forest-folk who hated it as well to do the same, it was like a dam bursting.
(Another of the misfortunes in all the tension is that the Forest was ruled by first Coyote, an amoral trickster more interested in his own amusement than in the well-being of both sides, and then the crazed Loup. I've occasionally wondered whether it would have helped matters if the Forest's resident "animal-guide" had been a wiser and nobler being, like, say, Aslan from the Chronicles of Narnia - who might even have spoken to the Court about whether it was really a good idea to tamper with the ether about it, attempting to reach them with reason. But, knowing the Court leadership, I suspect that they'd have dismissed his arguments with contempt - to continue the Lewis analogies, it'd have probably been like Weston's response to the Oyarsa's counsel in "Out of the Silent Planet".)
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Post by silicondream on May 6, 2021 2:57:10 GMT
Kat's project could bring some very interesting development. She use artificial bodies and conscience transference to replace robot bodies with more organic-like ones, but if the process could be applied to humans, which is the logical progression,IMHO, it could bring to virtual immortality, and how would the Guides feel about that, mmh!? If people stop dying what will will keep the world spinning? Artificial souls, perhaps? Many constructs are much less interested in immortality than humans are. Copy Diego's old robots, reactivate each copy for a moment, euthanize upon request. Or, you know, kill Coyote for real this time. That much etheric energy will keep everyone going forever, right? ...right? Since we're on Lewis:  |
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Post by sebastian on May 6, 2021 6:44:26 GMT
Kat's project could bring some very interesting development. She use artificial bodies and conscience transference to replace robot bodies with more organic-like ones, but if the process could be applied to humans, which is the logical progression,IMHO, it could bring to virtual immortality, and how would the Guides feel about that, mmh!? If people stop dying what will will keep the world spinning? Artificial souls, perhaps? Many constructs are much less interested in immortality than humans are. Copy Diego's old robots, reactivate each copy for a moment, euthanize upon request. Or, you know, kill Coyote for real this time. That much etheric energy will keep everyone going forever, right? ...right? But Coyote doesn't exist, so I do't think it would count. Another consideration. As Muut said the Guides don't deal with eletric appliances, but Kat's new robots are much more than that, they seems even more advanced than Diego's models. Also their bodies can't just be simply repaired by replacing pieces as the old ones, so it is plausible that these robots will die, eventually. So, as they are now would they enter under the guides's purview? Would they need their own guide? Could be that the guides are already prepared for that and this is the job they want to give Antimony? Just come to me while writing this, that 'arbiter' guy said that Arthur's new body was not considered a robot anymore, but a living creature (even if he was kinda vague about it and after what the guides pulled with Smit and Antimony I don't really trust these supernatural guys very much) |
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Post by saardvark on May 6, 2021 12:00:09 GMT
Another consideration. As Muut said the Guides don't deal with eletric appliances, but Kat's new robots are much more than that, they seems even more advanced than Diego's models. Also their bodies can't just be simply repaired by replacing pieces as the old ones, so it is plausible that these robots will die, eventually. So, as they are now would they enter under the guides's purview? Would they need their own guide? Could be that the guides are already prepared for that and this is the job they want to give Antimony? But if Kat can grow Tony a new hand, she might be able to repair the new robot bodies as well. Just grow them new parts as the old ones are damaged or wear out..... What this might mean, if anything, for guide oversight and their contact with the ether is unclear. Their brains are organic, designed by Juliet, which Kat uploaded their old digital programming into. We shall see..... |
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Post by todd on May 6, 2021 13:00:33 GMT
Since we're on Kat's robot project at the moment (sort of), I'd like to share my thoughts that part of its narrative function is to offer a small-scale parallel to the Court's project, thereby helping us comprehend it better. It may also serve as a foil, since Kat obviously isn't going to stoop to the level of the Court leadership. But some of her actions on it could echo those of the Court:
1. While it began for an immediate practical reason (providing a new body for Robot after the old on e got paper-clipped), it's clearly become more about the project itself, the challenge of making a far more advanced robot body than the original robot design. Robot's need was more the catalyst. If I'm correct about my suspicion that the whole reason for the Court's experiments with the ether is simply to find out how it works, for its own sake, rather than seeking to exploit the ether and harness it (whether for good purposes or not so good), this would serve as an echo of the Court's goals.
2. In "The Torn Sea", Kat becomes so excited about her new abilities that she forgets that she's being asked to assist a would-be adulterer (until Paz reminds her that the purpose for which Kat is being asked to make a new body for the ship is not a good one). We don't know if the Court has suffered from similar blindness, but it's likely that it has.
3. Kat incorporates Diego's arrow into the "returning Reynardine to Annie's ownership" process. The arrow was not needed to do this, and Kat included it only out of curiosity about it, to see what would happen - and it had near-drastic consequences for Annie and Reynardine as a result.
(Add onto that that Kat's also unwittingly programmed the robots by careless remarks she's made around them, such as "It was worth it", and it does appear that her robot project could lead to trouble to come.)
In all of this, what's led Kat on is her excitement and scientific curiosity, rather than darker motives - which, the evidence suggests, is the same with the Court. (Except, perhaps, that the one high-ranking Court official we've met, the Headmaster, looks anything but enthusiastic. But we don't know whether he takes that much part in the Court's actual experiments; he may be just handling the paperwork involved with running the school, etc.)
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Post by Gemminie on May 6, 2021 20:27:33 GMT
But Coyote doesn't exist, so I do't think it would count. I think that's possible. Coyote was a creation of the Ether, so if he went back into the Ether, it'd be zero-sum, nothing changing. (But if he combined with Ysengrin to create a new and different being, and that being then died and went into the Ether ... what about that?) This is exactly what I've been speculating about the future. I'm sure that in the future, at some point, there will be androids who will die. They will take their beliefs with them into the Ether, causing ripples that will affect both the future and the past. Perhaps the spirit guides can sense these death ripples, since it's not too farfetched to think that they're sensitive to issues that specifically concern them. So they think they'll need a spirit guide for the androids. Perhaps Annie's their candidate for this. It would kind of make sense, with Kat giving them life and Annie bringing them death – and it would be full circle, considering that Annie was also the one who put Robot together and started him up. Yeah, what the guides did to Annie was kind of shady. But then, they seem to serve not life or death but the balance of the universe. There are definitely things they're not telling anyone, possibly because doing so would interfere with mortal affairs if any mortal knew them. We still don't know why Annie was driven to "claim" Jeanne, why the guides are so concerned with who takes whom into the Ether, why they didn't come for Surma, why they pushed Annie to deal with the Jeanne situation when they seemingly never did so with Surma, why they wanted Annie to have a blinker stone and thus gain enhanced mastery over the Ether, why they didn't owe Annie anything after she freed Jeanne, or a lot of other things. We don't even know whether Surma ever took anyone into the Ether, including her own mother. Those mysterious psychopomps. |
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Post by Gemminie on May 6, 2021 20:41:28 GMT
(Except, perhaps, that the one high-ranking Court official we've met, the Headmaster, looks anything but enthusiastic. But we don't know whether he takes that much part in the Court's actual experiments; he may be just handling the paperwork involved with running the school, etc.) A few things about that: first, we only seem to see him when he's dealing with diplomatic affairs with the Forest, and as Jones explained, acting disinterested is the Court's preferred diplomatic tactic. It doesn't mean he's truly disinterested in that or anything else. Second, all we know about his role in the Court is that he's involved in the school and diplomacy; we don't know whether he's involved in other areas (although it's been stated clearly that the Shadow Men aren't connected to the school, so there are at least some branches of the Court that he's not in charge of). Also, we know that he considers himself part of a committee, board, or other deliberative body and doesn't make decisions unilaterally. My speculation is that there's a research branch, an intelligence branch, an education branch, and possibly various other branches, and the head of each branch is on the Court's steering committee, or whatever it's called. It's a little weird that Llanwellyn would be headmaster of the school but also the chief diplomatic representative, but maybe that was a temporary volunteer position until they had a medium firmly in place. Smitty was just starting to get the hang of it, and then the whole Loup thing happened. |
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Post by todd on May 6, 2021 23:48:47 GMT
It's a little weird that Llanwellyn would be headmaster of the school but also the chief diplomatic representative, but maybe that was a temporary volunteer position until they had a medium firmly in place. Smitty was just starting to get the hang of it, and then the whole Loup thing happened. In fact, all the Court figures we've seen at those meetings with the Forest (the Donlans, Eglamore) are school staff. Of course, this could be just a storytelling convention because Annie's one of the schoolchildren and the school side of the Court is what she's most familiar with. |
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Post by Gemminie on May 7, 2021 5:03:10 GMT
It's a little weird that Llanwellyn would be headmaster of the school but also the chief diplomatic representative, but maybe that was a temporary volunteer position until they had a medium firmly in place. Smitty was just starting to get the hang of it, and then the whole Loup thing happened. In fact, all the Court figures we've seen at those meetings with the Forest (the Donlans, Eglamore) are school staff. Of course, this could be just a storytelling convention because Annie's one of the schoolchildren and the school side of the Court is what she's most familiar with. Well, all the identifiable Court figures are school staff, but there are others. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [probably more] I suppose one could argue that perhaps the story's from Annie's point of view, and she has no idea who these other people are, so they're drawn far away, indistinct, or shadowy. Or Tom just doesn't want to create those characters, since he has no intention of their becoming important to the story he wants to tell, so he doesn't draw them identifiably. But who are they? Are they from the school, or from other parts of the Court's structure? I don't know! |
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Post by sebastian on May 7, 2021 6:55:44 GMT
But Coyote doesn't exist, so I do't think it would count. I think that's possible. Coyote was a creation of the Ether, so if he went back into the Ether, it'd be zero-sum, nothing changing. (But if he combined with Ysengrin to create a new and different being, and that being then died and went into the Ether ... what about that?) But Ysengrim is a creature of the Ether, too. The question would be is if the total is greater than the sum of its parts, and it don't look that way. |
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Post by pyradonis on May 7, 2021 7:16:54 GMT
It's a little weird that Llanwellyn would be headmaster of the school but also the chief diplomatic representative, but maybe that was a temporary volunteer position until they had a medium firmly in place. Smitty was just starting to get the hang of it, and then the whole Loup thing happened. In fact, all the Court figures we've seen at those meetings with the Forest (the Donlans, Eglamore) are school staff. Of course, this could be just a storytelling convention because Annie's one of the schoolchildren and the school side of the Court is what she's most familiar with. I think that's the reason. Also, all of the school staff seen at the meetings do more than just teaching - Eglamore is Protector of the Court, the Donlans seem to be involved in research, Jones is doing all kinds of things, from training mediums to advising the headmaster (and Coyote knows who else) to whatever gives her the authority to give orders to Shadow Men, and I think Bob is not school staff at all. He's probably present because he's an expert on magical decontamination of plant matter from the Forest. |
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Post by silicondream on May 8, 2021 19:21:50 GMT
You’ll recall that several of the Inklings drew a distinction between magia, white/natural/lawful magic, and goeteia, black/unnatural/forbidden magic. For Lewis, both were dangerous but only goeteia was inherently evil, and he postulated a shift among practitioners from magia to goeteia as the Middle Ages gave way to the Renaissance:
Besides Merlin in THS, Coriakin and the Hermit were the same sort of white mage in the Narnia books. N.I.C.E., and Andrew Ketterley, were end products of the degeneration into goeteia. Jadis’ character develops through almost the entire magia→modern→goeteia transition, although she’s evil and controlling from beginning to end. On Charn she casts spells through direct will and abstract formulae; on Earth she has no powers beyond the crudely physical; and in Narnia she’s the White Witch who brews cursed potions and consorts with evil spirits.
The Court, I’d suggest, is at Lewis’ “modern” stage. They’re suspicious of Anja’s magia because it relies on a personal connection to the ether, and they think they’re guarding against moral corruption by not consorting with etheric beings. What they would like to develop is an impersonal magic--something anyone could practice through sheer intellectual comprehension and appreciation of nature. Tony is the Court’s MVP in this regard, a polymath and student of natural history, who loves both nature and other people but cannot or will not identify with them.
However, when Court factions get too desperate (whether for love or power), their lack of spiritual grounding tends to pull them toward N.I.C.E.-ish goeteia, and you get brutal “surgeries” like the sacrifice of Jeanne, the experiments on Zimmy and the trapping of Renard. Tony’s a decent guy, so he always tries to direct his surgeries at himself--cutting himself away from Annie’s life for her sake, cutting apart his body and mind for Surma’s sake. But it still has fallout for others, and he’s still vulnerable to demonic forces that try to pull him in a blacker direction.
Oh yes, and Llanwellyn strikes me as totally a Wither. Doesn't seem to care about anything on the outside, because he's somewhere very far away--and probably nowhere good--on the inside.
*EDIT* and it's probably needless to say, but Tom's ethics and politics are very different from Lewis'. GC invokes the same tropes and themes, but it does not arrive at the same conclusions.
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Post by pyradonis on May 8, 2021 22:33:41 GMT
Just for the sake of completeness, I have added one more piece of evidence to my earlier analysis about the roots of the conflict between Court and Forest: Loup also claims that before Coyote separated Court and Forest the Forest was fading away, dying as the Court encroached. |
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Post by saardvark on May 9, 2021 12:24:14 GMT
Just for the sake of completeness, I have added one more piece of evidence to my earlier analysis about the roots of the conflict between Court and Forest: Loup also claims that before Coyote separated Court and Forest the Forest was fading away, dying as the Court encroached. perhaps seed of Bismuth overgrowth issues..... |
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Post by pyradonis on May 10, 2021 13:24:46 GMT
Just for the sake of completeness, I have added one more piece of evidence to my earlier analysis about the roots of the conflict between Court and Forest: Loup also claims that before Coyote separated Court and Forest the Forest was fading away, dying as the Court encroached. perhaps seed of Bismuth overgrowth issues..... Yes, that is basically also what the fake Seed Bismuth claimed. Like todd said, either the humans deliberately let the Court grow and overtake the Forest, or they were not able to control it; in either case it constituted a very real threat to the Forest and its inhabitants. |
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Post by todd on May 14, 2021 21:45:03 GMT
You’ll recall that several of the Inklings drew a distinction between magia, white/natural/lawful magic, and goeteia, black/unnatural/forbidden magic. For Lewis, both were dangerous but only goeteia was inherently evil, and he postulated a shift among practitioners from magia to goeteia as the Middle Ages gave way to the Renaissance: Besides Merlin in THS, Coriakin and the Hermit were the same sort of white mage in the Narnia books. N.I.C.E., and Andrew Ketterley, were end products of the degeneration into goeteia. Jadis’ character develops through almost the entire magia→modern→ goeteia transition, although she’s evil and controlling from beginning to end. On Charn she casts spells through direct will and abstract formulae; on Earth she has no powers beyond the crudely physical; and in Narnia she’s the White Witch who brews cursed potions and consorts with evil spirits. The Court, I’d suggest, is at Lewis’ “modern” stage. They’re suspicious of Anja’s magia because it relies on a personal connection to the ether, and they think they’re guarding against moral corruption by not consorting with etheric beings. What they would like to develop is an impersonal magic--something anyone could practice through sheer intellectual comprehension and appreciation of nature. Tony is the Court’s MVP in this regard, a polymath and student of natural history, who loves both nature and other people but cannot or will not identify with them. However, when Court factions get too desperate (whether for love or power), their lack of spiritual grounding tends to pull them toward N.I.C.E.-ish goeteia, and you get brutal “surgeries” like the sacrifice of Jeanne, the experiments on Zimmy and the trapping of Renard. Tony’s a decent guy, so he always tries to direct his surgeries at himself--cutting himself away from Annie’s life for her sake, cutting apart his body and mind for Surma’s sake. But it still has fallout for others, and he’s still vulnerable to demonic forces that try to pull him in a blacker direction. Oh yes, and Llanwellyn strikes me as totally a Wither. Doesn't seem to care about anything on the outside, because he's somewhere very far away--and probably nowhere good--on the inside. *EDIT* and it's probably needless to say, but Tom's ethics and politics are very different from Lewis'. GC invokes the same tropes and themes, but it does not arrive at the same conclusions. Thank you for that enjoyable and well-written analysis. I agree that Tom's slant is different from Lewis's; that particularly manifests itself in the Court's goal being to explain the ether scientifically rather than to control it. (One other similarity between the Court and the Institute that I forgot to mention; both fear and shun the natural world, even coming up with artificial substitutes - Filostrato's proposed artificial trees and birds, the Court's Milton-quoting robot horse and the robot cows in the Residential.) |
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Post by todd on May 16, 2021 0:30:57 GMT
One more observation about the Court: almost every time it engages in some sneaky scheme to get the better over the Forest, the plan ends up backfiring on the Court in some way. The Jeanne business doesn't seem to have done as much of that (beyond a hint in the "Realm of the Dead" chapter that Jeanne's ghost might have *encourged* attacks on the Annan Waters by giving the more monstrous forest-folk a foe to pit themselves against, prove themselves, and possibly win renown and glory - except they all got slaughtered), but the other schemes we've seen wound up biting the Court hard.
1. RENARD: The Court fears that Renard will accept Coyote's offer of some of his powers, so decide to entrap him by having Surma get him to fall in love with her. In so doing, they give Renard the incentive at last to accept Coyote's offer, which he had been previously uninterested in, thus producing the very situation the Court wanted to avoid. It did succeed in capturing Reynardine, but at the cost of two lives among the Court staff.
2. MEDIUM-CHOOSING: The Court decides to choose Andrew over Annie as Court medium, because of Annie's friendliness towards the forest-folk, friendliness which the Court doesn't want to see in its own medium. When it announces its decision, Coyote promptly makes Annie Forest Medium - meaning that now Annie does indeed have a medium position which the Court cannot control. Add to that, Coyote has openly outmaneuvered the Court. And to top it off, Jones openly disagrees with the Court about its decision, making no attempt to hide her disapproval, and when the Headmaster tells her to restrain Annie, refuses, explaining that she's no longer Annie's trainer. And Andrew and Parley volunteer to help Annie out as Forest Medium - meaning that they're not as compliant to the Court's wishes as the Court had been hoping. Two student/employees have displayed their independence, and Jones (an associate rather than an employee) has also refused to answer their bidding. No wonder the Headmaster looks so displeased; all these elements, put together, make an alarming turn of events, showing that the Court is losing control of the situation.
3. ANTONY: While what follows is speculation, it seems a reasonable deduction based on what we know. I suspect that the Court conceived of the Antony scheme in response to Coyote naming Annie Forest Medium. Its plan: once it found Antony, get him to exercise full control over Annie, making it look as if this was about Annie's cheating. Having Antony do it, with the cheating as the "official reason", disassociates the Court from this act, so that anyone unhappy about it (which turns out to include practically all of Annie's friends in both the Court and the Forest) will blame Antony instead of the Court (which they do), and draws attention away from Annie's actions regarding the Forest (I suspect that the Court wants as little attention drawn towards Gilltie Wood and the tensions with it from the ordinary residents of the Court as possible), making it look like parental discipline over a mundane offense rather than part of the tensions with Gilltie. (It helps that Annie's devastation over Antony's coldness towards her drains all the possible defiance she might have displayed if a regular Court official had imposed this punishment upon her instead of Antony - thus, the door to Annie's meddling is now locked and bolted on the inside as well as the outside.)
And then Coyote shows up to protest, and knocks a building down to show his displeasure. The Court leadership promptly begs Antony to revoke his decision and let Annie visit the Forest again. We don't know their reason for this: did the Court leaders genuinely panic after seeing how angry Coyote was, deciding that an angry Coyote in the Court was more dangerous than Annie visiting the Forest? Or was it all for show, with the Court leadership hoping that Antony would stand his ground, thus continuing to make the forbidding look like a piece of family disciplining rather than a Court policy, and keeping up their plausible deniability? Whatever the case, the Court's choice of Antony as its instrument now backfires; Coyote takes full advantage of Antony's "broken" condition and guilt over having taken his grief over Surma's death out om his daughter, to convince him that he should let Annie visit the Forest again. Antony withdraws his ban. The end result: Annie's able to go into the Forest again and converse with its inhabitants, Antony's given her permission to do so, against the Court's wishes, showing that he's more independent of it than the Court wants, and Coyote has outmaneuvered the Court again. Not to mention a toppled building to clean up (though at least it probably didn't contain anything important).
Understandably, after such a debacle, the Court's engaged in no further scheming that we know of, until the Shadow Men confiscated the lake water (but made no move with the goosebone). I wonder whether the Court will try a fresh sneaky trick with the lake water (I've a vision of them adding a few drops of non-etherized rain water in the hopes that it might destroy Loup from within when he takes it into himself) - followed by Loup getting suspicious, figuring out the trick, and renewing his attacks on the Court in fury, thus continuing the pattern....
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Post by todd on May 20, 2021 0:29:03 GMT
One further thought on the Court leadership. For all the dark things it's done, from Jeanne's murder onwards, I don't hate it. I feel more sorry for it; almost all of what it's done, it did out of fear of being ripped to shreds by angry forest-creatures, convinced that only murdering two people and turning them into ghosts or lying to a talking fox and manipulating him into falling for love or blackmailing a broken man into doing psychological damage to his daughter could avert that dire future. Underneath all the scheming and secrecy, these people are terrified, intimidated by the might of the forest.
The Court leadership also brought this about by its insistence on trying to turn the ether into a scientific formula, but it's an understandable response for scientists confronted with something that seems unexplainable - to explain it. Kat's own response to the etheric has been to attempt the same thing. It's led to troubles aplenty, but I don't think that the Court means to abuse this power - doesn't even realize what controlling and manipulating the ether can do.
In a sense, the Court is in its own mind cage, whose bars are forged from fear - and an excess of curiosity. It's now trapped in a crumbling city that's too big for its inhabitants (too big maybe because of the Court unleashing something it could not control) with angry, embittered neighbors, convinced that the only way to survive is to engage in more scheming, more manipulations, more secrets and lies. At least, until Kat can show them a better way. And that is why I pity the Court leadership.
(Though I'll admit it would be kind of fun to see the Headmaster groveling before a Loup who's broken into the Court, claiming that the Omega Device was not his idea, that everything the Court did was the fault of others - maybe pointing fingers at Antony, Anya, etc. - offering to do anything if Loup will just let him live and not eat him....)
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