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Post by csj on Apr 28, 2021 13:02:44 GMT
Jerry Springer is BEGGING to do an episode on the Carvers. BEGGGGGINGGGGG. imagine tony immolated in front of a live tv audience |
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yinglung
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Post by yinglung on Apr 28, 2021 13:10:29 GMT
Given the state of their relationship in the hospital, I do wonder how Tony got around to teaching Annie judo.
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Post by ohthatone on Apr 28, 2021 14:07:01 GMT
Given the state of their relationship in the hospital, I do wonder how Tony got around to teaching Annie judo. Surma probably said something to the effect of "put down the stethoscope and go bond" and judo was probably the best way for him to do it, since talking over icecream obviously wasn't going to happen. Has it been explicitly stated who handled Annie's education before gunnerkrigg? We know she learned languages from the psychopomps, but was it tony, surma or both teaching her everything else? I'm going to guess it was mainly surma since Tony was so busy otherwise. So I wonder how much experience he's had with teaching in general. |
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Post by Gemminie on Apr 28, 2021 14:22:43 GMT
It's a bit difficult to say where the frames are on today's page. We start with a collage of bits of Annie's face and hair seen from many different angles. As Tom experiments with Cubism, Tony confirms the theories that have been drifting around that on some level he sees Annie as two people, Annie and Surma. His mind cage is so sensitive that somebody who is one person but reminds him of another counts as two people, so *cage slams down*. What happened to him to cause him to build such hair-trigger absolute emotional protection around himself? So of course he treated Court Annie exactly as if she were Original Annie, because she came right back (well, after a few hours) from the Forest, so he had no reason to believe she wasn't, and of course Court Annie had no reason to believe she wasn't. So for months this pattern continued, only now they were living in the same house and seeing each other every day. And then Forest Annie showed up, and Tony had a furious rage reaction to her that no one could see, but internally he violently denied that she was Annie at all. That drew enough of a line that even as he came to suspect that perhaps she was Annie, whatever part of him that pushes the mind cage button didn't get the hair-trigger "AAAAAA MAYBE ALSO SURMA" reaction. Instead it was more like, "Impostor with Surma's face? Simulacrum? Antimony? What? Who?" She confused the hair-trigger mechanism. So even as he came to accept that she was also Annie, he was coming toward that limit from the other direction. It seems like in math, when f(x) = 1/x and you're looking at the limit of f(x) as x approaches 0. If you approach x=0 from the negative direction it's approaching negative infinity, but if you approach x=0 from the positive direction it's approaching positive infinity. My point is that depending on your approach, you get one of two results that literally can't possibly be more different from each other. Amid all of this we have a few flashback frames to when Forest Annie first showed up, from his point of view. Like Monday's page, though, this one doesn't really advance anything. It clears up, finally, why the cage crashed down whenever he was around Original and Court Annie, and why it didn't when he was around Forest Annie. But nothing's changing here. So, to paraphrase what basser said, this has to be going somewhere. Either we're going to see something change about how Tony's dealing with his problem in general or Annie specifically, or Tony's problem is going to be integral to whatever happens next (or soon, like in the next chapter). In my opinion, from the way Tony's narration has been going, next he's going to talk about what happened on the day when only one Annie came home, so we might finally see an answer to the question of how he behaves around Recombined Annie. And then ... something will happen. "So now you can see, Jones, why I asked you to look into her mental state. My mind cage needs to know." Or, "Anthony, do I have your permission to tell Antimony about all of this, as it seems you are unable to do so?" Or ... something. This "Annie and Her Father" story arc will progress in some way. |
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Post by wies on Apr 28, 2021 14:29:05 GMT
<abbr>Thanks to those who answered my question. I was aware both James and Anthony loved Surma romantically. I was more wondering why they couldn't let go of that memory. And maybe it does have something to do with the Firespirit. People pointed out lots of other people (Donald included) had a déja vu moment too. But also, remember this fake!renard panel? I described it in the thread that Renard seemed stuck in grief there. That is Tony right there. And I think that is a part of what is going on here too: unprocessed grief. Like, Tony specifically went through a world of trouble just to see her again. And this comic is about a lot of things, like perspective (this page once again), and one of them is death or how to deal with it. In that regard it is interesting we are going into this now that Annie has processed (I didn't like how that happened, but it happened) her mother's death in the past chapter. </abbr> |
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Post by fia on Apr 28, 2021 14:54:10 GMT
Well I hope Tony retains the ability to be himself around his own daughter as opposed to loses it again now that Annie is one person again. But I guess we'll see.
It'll be a very odd form of etheric therapy if it works. But I still want it, for Annie's sake.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Apr 28, 2021 15:00:56 GMT
Given the state of their relationship in the hospital, I do wonder how Tony got around to teaching Annie judo. Surma probably said something to the effect of "put down the stethoscope and go bond" and judo was probably the best way for him to do it, since talking over icecream obviously wasn't going to happen. Has it been explicitly stated who handled Annie's education before gunnerkrigg? We know she learned languages from the psychopomps, but was it tony, surma or both teaching her everything else? I'm going to guess it was mainly surma since Tony was so busy otherwise. So I wonder how much experience he's had with teaching in general. It would be interesting to know if the judo-teaching was before or after Surma died but it was most likely before, as it was only a month or so after that Antimony went to the Court. Assuming that's the case I'm thinking you're correct in that Surma taught Antimony as much as she could (maybe to Antimony's detriment in some areas) while Anthony did PE and anatomy and whatever else Surma couldn't. [edit] And that, come to think of it, might be why he did things the way he did when he returned. He reestablished himself as Antimony's teacher and person of authority before beginning to straighten her out. He almost certainly didn't have to teach at the Court school, they would have probably have been happy to just have him back in his mission-carrying-out capacity or whatever else he did/does. In that case I wonder if the job of fixing Antimony's wagon would have fallen on Eggers. That would have been interesting, and also they could have investigated/discovered that Anthony actually was back and hadn't come to see her... [/edit] |
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Post by ysenfrown on Apr 28, 2021 15:06:41 GMT
This page amuses me because people have been floating the question what causes Anthony to differentiate between Courtnie and Fannie, and instead of something mystical or difficult to spot it's literally the most obvious difference between the two of them: Courtnie returned before Fannie did.
Basically, if I'm understanding this explanation correctly, Anthony is saying that because Courtnie returned first he's been associating all his Surma-related struggles with her for six months. Then when Fannie comes back he does come to see her as his daughter, but because his mind has already made the connection of 'Courtnie=Surma Soul' Fannie is spared that problem.
Which also means that if Courtnie didn't exist Fannie never would have seen Anthony open up. Of course that would also mean that Courtnie would never have been able to bypass Anthony's barriers because it's not in her behaviour or appearance but in the fact that she's 'older' than Fannie.
It's pretty funny when the answer to a puzzle has been in front of you the entire time.
Agree entirely with the fact that Courtnie's return first is one of the primary reasons—however, I think there's merit to remembering the differences between the two Annies as well, which are etched out pretty clearly in the Zimmy encounter. Courtnie is too hung up on remembering her mother, while Fannie is more about moving on. See: Courtnie's return to wearing Surma's makeup, versus Fannie's continued bare face. This contrast could also contribute to why Anthony is able to open up to Fannie. So, I do think that this instance is more complex than just the mere fact that Courtnie came home first—but that is one of the primary instigators, yes. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Apr 28, 2021 15:14:03 GMT
Courtnie coming home first is absolutely important but I think Anthony is also saying that the physicality of the resemblance between Antimony and Surma was something that he couldn't overcome until confronted by the equally undeniable physicality of two Antimonies. Courtnie got stuck as the Surma-ish one because she had less of a continuity break than Fannie did.
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Post by lurkerbot on Apr 28, 2021 16:21:04 GMT
<snip> It's also coupled with the fact that [Tony and James] both deified Surma after her death, even though from what we saw of her she was a total asshole at worst and at best she barely gave thought to how her actions impact other people's lives - they don't and won't reflect on her toxic behavior at all, instead focusing on the good stuff. I've lately been trying to decide on my least favorite Gunnerkrigg characters and Surma keeps coming to mind in light of some flashbacks involving her as portrayed by persons other than Antimony. Still, the Court chose her as their previous medium, so they must have focused on her useful qualities. Of course, they've long manipulated the Court-Forest relationship for their own purposes, so Surma's overall personality likely played into their decision. That said, I'd be interested to know more of past events from Surma's point of view. |
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V
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I just think it's a pity that she never wore these again.
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Post by V on Apr 28, 2021 16:43:32 GMT
Off-topic: anyone, what's the deal with the exclamation marks, please? Like Court!Annie, fake!Renard etc. Why "!"? There must be a reference I'm missing.
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Post by todd on Apr 28, 2021 16:44:17 GMT
The mention of the Court-Forest tensions and Surma being the previous Court medium reminds me of one feature of the medium business which puzzles me. According to Jones, the role of mediums is to serve as impartial figures to help resolve the conflict between the two worlds, the human and the etheric. But the mediums serving as representatives of the Court and the Forest makes them seem more like lawyers, assigned to "win the case" for their client, who would - in a sense - have to be biased towards the group they're representing.
Now, if the mediums lived in neither the Court nor the Forest, but somewhere else, and served in the meetings between Court and Forest like a judge or a jury, hearing the arguments from the representatives of both sides and then making their decision after digesting all that they'd heard, they'd seem more like true mediators between the two worlds.
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Post by wynne on Apr 28, 2021 16:51:23 GMT
They both loved her for a long, long time. Neither really got over her - Tony to an almost (accidentally) infanticidal degree, while Eglamore, from what we know, never attempted a deeper relationship again, instead opting for what were essentially two extended one-night stands/friends with benefits arrangements. Both also know that Surma essentially gave up her soul to "make" Antimony, so it's natural they'll look for literal glimpses of her inside. It's also coupled with the fact that both deified Surma after her death, even though from what we saw of her she was a total asshole at worst and at best she barely gave thought to how her actions impact other people's lives - they don't and won't reflect on her toxic behavior at all, instead focusing on the good stuff. The entire situation is pretty much a deconstruction of the relationship between a "heroic orphan" and the friends of their parents seen in stuff like Harry Potter. In those stories they are protective over the main character as surrogate parental figures and are inclined to project the parent's behavioral patterns onto them because of the similarity AND want to recapture a lost youth. Here they are having a tough time seeing Annie as her own person period because of the mechanics of how she was born and their relationship with her mother. I'm not quite so harsh on Surma (as far as non-romantic relationships go), but oof yeah that's a great point. It doesn't seem like a coincidence that the best father figure in Annie's life is Reynard, aka. the only one of Surma's suitors who was forced to come to terms with Surma's faults and get real closure on their relationship (or lack thereof). (ETA. That is to say, the only one who got closure on Surma and thus sees Annie as her own person) |
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ffkonoko
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Post by ffkonoko on Apr 28, 2021 17:00:18 GMT
SO, confirmed, Tony opened to Annie bc by his autism?condition?trauma? in deep he did not see Fannie fully as a real Annie. Nope, definitely not confirmed. He had a fresh start, so he was seeing her JUST as a real Annie, not as a combination of two people, including an Annie. |
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Post by wynne on Apr 28, 2021 17:03:47 GMT
Off-topic: anyone, what's the deal with the exclamation marks, please? Like Court!Annie, fake!Renard etc. Why "!"? There must be a reference I'm missing. It's a fandom convention from like, 2013-ish (I think?) that was originally used to differentiate between characters in different parts of the story, or with different emotional states or different fanfic AUs. So you might see coffeeshop!Kirk for someone talking about Captain Kirk in coffeeshop AUs, amok!Spock to talk about Spock in the episode Amok Time, or happy!McCoy to talk about how Dr. McCoy acts when he's in an unusually good mood. |
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Post by wies on Apr 28, 2021 18:16:27 GMT
The mention of the Court-Forest tensions and Surma being the previous Court medium reminds me of one feature of the medium business which puzzles me. According to Jones, the role of mediums is to serve as impartial figures to help resolve the conflict between the two worlds, the human and the etheric. But the mediums serving as representatives of the Court and the Forest makes them seem more like lawyers, assigned to "win the case" for their client, who would - in a sense - have to be biased towards the group they're representing. Now, if the mediums lived in neither the Court nor the Forest, but somewhere else, and served in the meetings between Court and Forest like a judge or a jury, hearing the arguments from the representatives of both sides and then making their decision after digesting all that they'd heard, they'd seem more like true mediators between the two worlds. It sounds like the position of medium was created with impartiality as intention, but after some time resulted in partiality. |
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yinglung
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Post by yinglung on Apr 28, 2021 18:18:19 GMT
The mention of the Court-Forest tensions and Surma being the previous Court medium reminds me of one feature of the medium business which puzzles me. According to Jones, the role of mediums is to serve as impartial figures to help resolve the conflict between the two worlds, the human and the etheric. But the mediums serving as representatives of the Court and the Forest makes them seem more like lawyers, assigned to "win the case" for their client, who would - in a sense - have to be biased towards the group they're representing. Now, if the mediums lived in neither the Court nor the Forest, but somewhere else, and served in the meetings between Court and Forest like a judge or a jury, hearing the arguments from the representatives of both sides and then making their decision after digesting all that they'd heard, they'd seem more like true mediators between the two worlds. Personally, I see a medium as more of an ambassadorial role, being from the faction they represent, but making contacts with and knowing enough about the other to handle diplomatic incidents and exchanges. Their primary duty is in diplomatic negotiations, impartiality would be nice, but it's not strictly necessary. One might also think of them as interpreters. I would think that the choice of medium is something of a political play as well, where Ysengrin is a general and Surma deals with psychopomps. Her appointment might have been a sign that the court wants to move past conflict and needless death, while her fiery disposition, pun intended, means that she would be uniquely suited to holding the forest's respect without having to be a dedicated warrior/soldier for the court. |
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Post by lisanela on Apr 28, 2021 18:21:12 GMT
It's interesting that he has always seen Annie as almost two people even when Surma was alive - I always thought his inability to connect with her at the hospital was more linked to the fact that while his daughter was getting stronger and livelier, his wife was literally dying and he couldn't do anything about it. Also I just realized that the first time he opened up to F!Annie might have been the first time Annie ever heard him laugh or seen him smile to her  |
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yinglung
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Post by yinglung on Apr 28, 2021 18:27:06 GMT
It's interesting that he has always seen Annie as almost two people even when Surma was alive - I always thought his inability to connect with her at the hospital was more linked to the fact that while his daughter was getting stronger and livelier, his wife was literally dying and he couldn't do anything about it. Also I just realized that the first time he opened up to F!Annie might have been the first time Annie ever heard him laugh or seen him smile to her He did say he came to see her as two people, not that that was how he saw her from the start. I would imagine the experience you described, seeing one wax while the other waned, would be one explanation for why he came to see Annie as such. Not to mention that as Annie grew, she would more closely resemble her mother than a newborn would. |
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Post by lurkerbot on Apr 28, 2021 18:39:23 GMT
Also I just realized that the first time he opened up to F!Annie might have been the first time Annie ever heard him laugh or seen him smile to her A perceptive, and rather tragic, observation. That probably explains the startled look on her face in Panel 2. |
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Post by maxptc on Apr 28, 2021 19:04:35 GMT
It's interesting that he has always seen Annie as almost two people even when Surma was alive - I always thought his inability to connect with her at the hospital was more linked to the fact that while his daughter was getting stronger and livelier, his wife was literally dying and he couldn't do anything about it. Also I just realized that the first time he opened up to F!Annie might have been the first time Annie ever heard him laugh or seen him smile to her Whats also a little unsettling is Tony might not be entirely wrong, even when Surma was alive, and even if he had no idea that he was. We don't know if the whole fire in Surma instantly went to Annie on her birth, and what she had was an All Might like situation. Which if it did, Surma has lost part of herself right then and it was part of Annie. If it was a slow transfer over time, that still creates the same issue, which is that Annie is more then just herself despite also being an unquestionably unique individual. She really is partially all her female ancestors. While this is only a conceptual problem for most people those who also knew Surma, or at least for those who knew her well, have to overcome it. Easy enough, unless you also have a lifelong issue with group conversations and a bunch of bottled up grief. Good that he got a chance to see Annie as an individual, but this new Annie was at one point, at least physically, two people. So I worry he is gonna have problems with that, unless because of the whole situation her sees her as yet another new unique individual. Obviously Annie should try that look like a different person plan again, but with a more convincing disguise. MAYBE JONES!??!!! |
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V
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I just think it's a pity that she never wore these again.
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Post by V on Apr 28, 2021 19:16:34 GMT
It's also coupled with the fact that both deified Surma after her death, even though from what we saw of her she was a total asshole at worst and at best she barely gave thought to how her actions impact other people's lives - they don't and won't reflect on her toxic behavior at all, instead focusing on the good stuff. Such hard words, really? We've seen her on quite some number of occasions. Three of them, if I count correctly, I would say she was treating others' emotions without much respect, one of them was on impulse of the Court (a job obligation, if you want, and job was exactly why she was let into the forest) and another was just a teenage breakup with someone who got distant from her. It's nothing rare and doesn't usually get any less ugly than this. Yes, then there was that time when she flashed an annoyed look at Anya for crying, I grant you that. Is that what makes one a complete asshole, or am I missing something? On the other hand, we saw her nudge Anja and Donny together, and help Anny be more confident at the same time. We saw her in the hospital, caring for Annie deeply and giving her some soothing words when sad or scared. And then a number of quite neutral flashbacks, like with the robot shed, the picture day, or the sneaking past the guard robots with others. Not a bad person in my book. Unless I'm forgetting something, which may be. |
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Post by frogspawned on Apr 28, 2021 19:46:55 GMT
Yeah, I think we had this one licked.
Hopefully as Annie becomes more her own person this'll erode her pop's hangups, this being a coming of age story and all.
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Post by Angry Individual on Apr 28, 2021 20:22:56 GMT
Maybe I am just being stubborn in my thoughts, but I feel like even if they've improved their relationship, he probably hasn't smiled for her alone. If only because I feel like she was never /truly/ alone with Reynard and Kat around, and maybe their existence has made it harder for Tony to be himself even with the two of them (c!Annie and Tony) being together under one roof. But f!Annie is alone right now. And I think that's why she's seeing this side of him. I just wanna give my past self a pat on the back for having the right idea and prediction on Tony being unable to talk to Court Annie, but missed the mark on why he was only talking to Forest Annie. Either way, I am personally satisfied with this reasoning. It makes sense, even if it doesn't feel good. |
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Post by sebastian on Apr 28, 2021 21:15:56 GMT
I don't the reason he give is an hard fact. That is the reason Antony believe is the most probable. When Jones asked him, 2-3 page ago, why he can open to Forest Annie but not Court Annie, his answer was "I wish I knew". It isn't like mind cages come with an handy instruction manual.
So he think this is the reason he can talk with F!Annie, and he probably know better than anyone else, being his own mind and all, but he still could be wrong.
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Post by Gemminie on Apr 28, 2021 21:40:30 GMT
We don't know if the whole fire in Surma instantly went to Annie on her birth, and what she had was an All Might like situation. Which if it did, Surma has lost part of herself right then and it was part of Annie. We don't know that, but I kind of suspect that this is what happened. After all, the guides and Surma both agreed that she couldn't help them anymore, whereas Annie could. But if so, it raises the question of why Surma lived for 12 years after giving birth, then died. My current thought is that the fire moved to Annie on her birth but continued to burn Surma's life until it was gone, as if Surma was the candle and Annie the wick. If that's true, though, it does imply that Surma would have died when she did whether she had a child or not, and so will Annie (unless something is different for her). |
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Post by TBeholder on Apr 28, 2021 22:37:47 GMT
Obviously Annie should try that look like a different person plan again, but with a more convincing disguise. MAYBE JONES!??!!! Hmm. No. Tony knows Jones from childhood, too. As an evil dino-demon. She would needs some extra horns, of course. |
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Post by blazingstar on Apr 28, 2021 23:35:03 GMT
Off-topic: anyone, what's the deal with the exclamation marks, please? Like Court!Annie, fake!Renard etc. Why "!"? There must be a reference I'm missing. It's a fandom convention from like, 2013-ish (I think?) that was originally used to differentiate between characters in different parts of the story, or with different emotional states or different fanfic AUs. So you might see coffeeshop!Kirk for someone talking about Captain Kirk in coffeeshop AUs, amok!Spock to talk about Spock in the episode Amok Time, or happy!McCoy to talk about how Dr. McCoy acts when he's in an unusually good mood. Correct on all counts, except it pre-dates the mid-2010s; I recall seeing it in fanfiction circles in the early 2000s, and some trace it back to message boards in the 90s. |
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Post by foxurus on Apr 29, 2021 0:07:09 GMT
Surma and Annie couldn't bear to be apart. I always assumed that was because they were sharing the same flame.
Surma is a self-absorbed asshole because, from what we know, she:
1. manipulated someone who had done nothing wrong into believing she loved him so that the Court could imprison him, simply because Coyote liked him and that made him theoretically dangerous;
2. cheated on her long-time boyfriend because he was "never there", seemingly without actually addressing that with him, and then was an unsympathetic jerk about it when she broke the news, judging by her expression and defiant pose before James got violent;
3. up and left without any explanation and never talked to her best friends again because she didn't want them to see her dying;
4. didn't tell her child about being a fire elemental, or why the psychopomps wouldn't be taking her;
5. seemingly didn't do anything when she saw her husband struggling to connect to their child;
and 6. failed Annie in several other ways, such as not teaching her anything about the Court even though she knew they'd send her there, denying her social interaction until she was twelve years old, and not teaching her how to deal with the grief she was about to experience. For god's sake, the kid thought she had to not cry about her mom being dead.
Worst person in the story? Not by a long shot. But she certainly had a track record of not considering other people and caused a lot of problems which everyone else decided to blame on anyone-but-her because of her charisma.
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Post by Gemminie on Apr 29, 2021 1:16:34 GMT
Worst person in the story? Not by a long shot. But she certainly had a track record of not considering other people and caused a lot of problems which everyone else decided to blame on anyone-but-her because of her charisma. Right, Tony definitely doesn't have a monopoly on doing horrible things. Neither does Surma, of course. This doesn't make anything bad that Tony, Surma, Renard, Coyote, Ysengrin, Annie, etc. has done OK. But it does mean we can't call anybody the One True Villain. That's a thing I like about GC. There don't seem to be any completely evil characters. Everybody's got reasons for doing what they do. A villain who does evil things just because they like being evil is unrealistic. They're less effective a character than one who does something that hurts another because they're hurting, they don't realize what they're doing is harmful, they think they're doing the right thing, they're doing a good thing for a third character, etc. And the heroes aren't completely good, either. I mean, Annie has done some bad things. As a natural medium, she seems to feel compelled to help ethereal beings who come to her for help, even if it means she harms herself or someone else in the process, like when she consequently doesn't have time to figure out her homework in subjects she has trouble with and has to plagiarize. But that does mean that she can be manipulated into spending more time away and even cancelling her summer plans. Or harboring the body-stealing criminal and getting herself on the Court's naughty list. I guess most of what Annie does wrong harms herself, though. |
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