[2460] I came to see her almost as two people

[bedinsis]

Further insight into Tony's psyche

[jda]

SO, confirmed, Tony opened to Annie bc by his autism?condition?trauma? in deep he did not see Fannie fully as a real Annie.

[imaginaryfriend]

And yep, imposter, stranger, individual... the reason he could interact with Fannie differently than with Courtnie was the idea that Fannie might not really be his daughter.

[edit] And is that a nod to ol' lemonhead Antimony that I see on the left border of the page in the extended first panel? [/edit]

[arf]

This is much as people have suspected. Interesting to see how he regards the current situation, having 'lost' a daughter.

(He has always regarded Annie in this way. Even when Surma was still alive.)

[laaaa]

To the people with autism/social anxiety: does his explanation make sense? (I had been sure he felt mainly guilt and sorrow whenever he saw her which would cause him to freeze, I did not expect for him to have difficulty with... not being able to clear up subconsciously whether she was Surma or Antimony)

[wlerin]

Apr 28, 2021 7:07:41 GMT jda said:

SO, confirmed, Tony opened to Annie bc by his autism?condition?trauma? in deep he did not see Fannie fully as a real Annie.

... or because he saw Prime!Annie as two people. He never saw her as herself without the shadow of Surma until Fannie walked through the door.

[arf]

Apr 28, 2021 7:07:42 GMT imaginaryfriend said:

[edit] And is that a nod to ol' lemonhead Antimony that I see on the left border of the page in the extended first panel? [/edit]

I don't think so, although having gazed at that panel for a bit , I can see Annie as a [edit]friendly[/edit] shoggoth.

[Timberwere]

Apr 28, 2021 7:07:41 GMT jda said:

SO, confirmed, Tony opened to Annie bc by his autism?condition?trauma? in deep he did not see Fannie fully as a real Annie.

Apr 28, 2021 7:07:42 GMT imaginaryfriend said:

And yep, imposter, stranger, individual... the reason he could interact with Fannie differently than with Courtnie was the idea that Fannie might not really be his daughter.

I would not frame it as harshly. He does say "I was finally able up to my daughter as I had not been able before", so I think that in his mind, it was mostly the definition of separate that made it possible for him. 
If he saw Courtney as having a bit of Surma in her and thus qualifying as 'two people', Frannie showing up as a separate person permitted him to interact with her as an individual without the 'baggage' of seeing Surma in her as he did in Courtney. But I don't believe this means he didn't see Frannie as his true daughter.

[flowsthead]

Ahh, so this is even worse now. Now she's potentially three people, or two people no matter which way you look at it. Well, at least Annie got to see a glimpse of what her father is like on the inside, even if she never gets to again.

[V]

Apr 28, 2021 7:07:42 GMT imaginaryfriend said:

And is that a nod to ol' lemonhead Antimony that I see on the left border of the page in the extended first panel?

I don't think so, this is Annie's right eye in the current style, just rotated sideways and obscured by hair in some weird angle.

Regarding visuals, I'm interested what's wrong with Annie's hair color in the two panels on the right.

[blazingstar]

Finally! We get the explanation for why he treats Annie (including C!Annie) as "two people" and F!Annie as one!

Where's that "mystery solved" GIF? Good job, everyone, we got our payoff, thanks for playing, it's been an honor.

[flowsthead]

Apr 28, 2021 7:20:16 GMT V said:

Regarding visuals, I'm interested what's wrong with Annie's hair color in the two panels on the right.   

Isn't that just a way to show it's in the past or a memory? A lighter hue.

[Timberwere]

Apr 28, 2021 7:20:16 GMT V said:

Regarding visuals, I'm interested what's wrong with Annie's hair color in the two panels on the right.

I think that is because this is a flashback - in the original page, the color is right.

(PS: I like how panel 3 here is showing the beginning of that flashback scene from Tony's perspective, with Annie kneeling in her room. That shot gives us a little new insight on that day back then that we hadn't had before.)

[wies]

<abbr>Hmm, the lay-out is familiair. (Though the context is different, of course)


All those Annies laying over each other makes me uncomfortable. It shows his confusion well and how he never could completely perceive her as her own person; though he is trying to. It is hard to determine how worrying this is, because this could be something etherical or psychological. Though, it can't be just the inherited firespirit. Like, Donny was able to see her as her own person, and Anja never showed confusion about that.

What is it about James and Tony that makes them keep seeing Surma in Annie?</abbr>

[blazingstar]

Apr 28, 2021 7:36:09 GMT wies said:

What is it about James and Tony that makes them keep seeing Surma in Annie?

They were in love with her, of course. Having a romantic relationship with a person is a different kind of connection,which Anja and Donny don't have.

[foxurus]

Apr 28, 2021 7:15:04 GMT flowsthead said:

Ahh, so this is even worse now. Now she's potentially three people, or two people no matter which way you look at it. Well, at least Annie got to see a glimpse of what her father is like on the inside, even if she never gets to again.

Oh no. :( I hadn't even thought of that.


I think, by the end of it, it wasn't about Forest!Annie not being his daughter, but the plausibility of her not having Surma's spirit (because she may have materialized from thin air) letting him trick himself past the mental block. Being his daughter doesn't mean she's Surma's daughter, after all.

I suppose it's hard to shake the feeling that Surma is inside Annie. Still, "two people even when one of them is a non-sentient dead spirit who can't possibly hear or observe anything happening" seems a bit outlandish as a trigger for his fear-of-multiple-people thing. Perhaps another forum user will chime in and correct me, but that sounds like Not A Real Thing. I continue to believe his problem is a magical curse, though where it came from or why he's afflicted with it is a mystery. He's had it since he was twelve, likely before, and I have a hard time imagining anything a kid could do to deserve something like that. I wonder, when he changed the subject away from his parents, was that a voluntary thing, or is he unable to talk about them? Maybe someone had it out for his parents and he got caught in the collateral damage.

(Note, he wouldn't have this problem if he thought of Annie as Surma. The problem is that he thinks of her as Annie, but also Surma is there in a weird way.)

Maybe Anja and Donny have had those moments of deja vu, and they're just a lot better at masking it than James is, and a lot better at dealing with it than Tony?

[dramastix]

I don't know, I don't see this as etheric. This is just pathology. I think there's definitely something to discover about his parents (why else would Tom have included that little throwaway line in Get Lost), but I think it's going to turn out to be some version of psychological abuse or trauma, more than an etheric block. He has too much insight into this problem for it to be magical - which of course doesn't mean he has the tools to deal with it. He clearly doesn't. 

4am musings, anyway. 

[flowsthead]

I'm not saying there is no etheric reasons, but it also doesn't have to be that complicated. People see kids as a reflection of their parents to differing degrees. Even forgetting the fire elemental (which Tony may not have been fully aware of) and Annie looking like Surma, Surma died so her strongest connection to the world is through Annie. He sees his dead wife every time he looks at his daughter. That's an incredibly common trope in fiction.

[basser]

Jones: "Have you noticed anything different about Antimony's mental state?"

Tony: dumps fifteen years of repressed personal angst

Jones: Jones face


Also y'all way too quick jumping on that mystery solved train - ain't nothing on this page says how or why, just his experience. Seems thematically relevant to have him throwing this at Jones of all people; she told us her experience of being an animated chunk of primordial soup but nobody thinks that's cleared up much of anything concerning what her deal is. Don't see how the current awkward therapy session comes out functionally any different aside from Tony having the capacity to feel some kinda way about it.

And like yeah, whatev, I could be wrong. But I been reading this comic waaaaaay too long to just accept going into this much rambling detail about a character quirk we've already thoroughly explored in the narrative. We know how Tony's thing works. From a writing standpoint it doesn't make sense to have him rehash the rules in grueling detail unless A) he's mistaken about some crucial aspect of the phenomenon, meaning we need his perspective now in order to inform his reaction to a reveal later, or B) his super normal not etheric at all conditional social skills are going to be so vitally important to the plot Tom feels it necessary to ensure we understand all aspects with zero possible ambiguity to the point of using a flat info dump. Option B is clunky writing and not how things usually operate round here, so I'm on Team A.

[guntherkrieg]

Is there anything purer than a father's love of his daughter's artificiality? No.

[foxurus]

Apr 28, 2021 8:05:13 GMT dramastix said:

I don't know, I don't see this as etheric. This is just pathology. I think there's definitely something to discover about his parents (why else would Tom have included that little throwaway line in Get Lost), but I think it's going to turn out to be some version of psychological abuse or trauma, more than an etheric block. He has too much insight into this problem for it to be magical - which of course doesn't mean he has the tools to deal with it. He clearly doesn't. 

4am musings, anyway. 

Apr 28, 2021 8:12:46 GMT flowsthead said:

I'm not saying there is no etheric reasons, but it also doesn't have to be that complicated. People see kids as a reflection of their parents to differing degrees. Even forgetting the fire elemental (which Tony may not have been fully aware of) and Annie looking like Surma, Surma died so her strongest connection to the world is through Annie. He sees his dead wife every time he looks at his daughter. That's an incredibly common trope in fiction.

I guess the reason I think it's etheric is because there's plenty of reasons why he might have a hard time being himself with Annie, like the constant reminder that his wife is dead, or his guilt, but he doesn't list anything like that. "Two people. So my mind closed off to her." Of all the understandable, logical reasons why he'd have this problem, that one doesn't make any sense to me. Being reminded of your wife -- even thinking someone is your wife -- isn't anything like literally having a second person in the room. Why would his lockup about having other people around come into play? The only similarity I can see is how it's phrased, like it's this poorly worded rule that has been placed on him by someone else.

[ghostiet]

Apr 28, 2021 7:36:09 GMT wies said:

What is it about James and Tony that makes them keep seeing Surma in Annie?</abbr>

They both loved her for a long, long time. Neither really got over her - Tony to an almost (accidentally) infanticidal degree, while Eglamore, from what we know, never attempted a deeper relationship again, instead opting for what were essentially two extended one-night stands/friends with benefits arrangements. Both also know that Surma essentially gave up her soul to "make" Antimony, so it's natural they'll look for literal glimpses of her inside. It's also coupled with the fact that both deified Surma after her death, even though from what we saw of her she was a total asshole at worst and at best she barely gave thought to how her actions impact other people's lives - they don't and won't reflect on her toxic behavior at all, instead focusing on the good stuff.

The entire situation is pretty much a deconstruction of the relationship between a "heroic orphan" and the friends of their parents seen in stuff like Harry Potter. In those stories they are protective over the main character as surrogate parental figures and are inclined to project the parent's behavioral patterns onto them because of the similarity AND want to recapture a lost youth. Here they are having a tough time seeing Annie as her own person period because of the mechanics of how she was born and their relationship with her mother.

[blackouthart]

Jerry Springer is BEGGING to do an episode on the Carvers. BEGGGGGINGGGGG.

[V]

Apr 28, 2021 7:30:32 GMT flowsthead said:

Isn't that just a way to show it's in the past or a memory? A lighter hue.

Apr 28, 2021 7:34:27 GMT Timberwere said:

I think that is because this is a flashback - in the original page, the color is right.

(PS: I like how panel 3 here is showing the beginning of that flashback scene from Tony's perspective, with Annie kneeling in her room. That shot gives us a little new insight on that day back then that we hadn't had before.)

Oh, I didn't think of that. Mystery solved!

We had that kneeling Annie in #2090, though.

[worldsong]

This page amuses me because people have been floating the question what causes Anthony to differentiate between Courtnie and Fannie, and instead of something mystical or difficult to spot it's literally the most obvious difference between the two of them: Courtnie returned before Fannie did.

Basically, if I'm understanding this explanation correctly, Anthony is saying that because Courtnie returned first he's been associating all his Surma-related struggles with her for six months. Then when Fannie comes back he does come to see her as his daughter, but because his mind has already made the connection of 'Courtnie=Surma Soul' Fannie is spared that problem.

Which also means that if Courtnie didn't exist Fannie never would have seen Anthony open up. Of course that would also mean that Courtnie would never have been able to bypass Anthony's barriers because it's not in her behaviour or appearance but in the fact that she's 'older' than Fannie.

It's pretty funny when the answer to a puzzle has been in front of you the entire time.

[silicondream]

Apr 28, 2021 7:11:21 GMT laaaa said:

(I had been sure he felt mainly guilt and sorrow whenever he saw her which would cause him to freeze, I did not expect for him to have difficulty with... not being able to clear up subconsciously whether she was Surma or Antimony)

Everyone seems to have that difficulty, to a greater or lesser extent. Tony just finds it particularly upsetting and disorienting.

Apr 28, 2021 7:36:09 GMT wies said:

It shows his confusion well and how he never could completely perceive her as her own person; though he is trying to. It is hard to determine how worrying this is, because this could be something etherical or psychological. Though, it can't be just the inherited firespirit.

It’s not--most of the humans can’t perceive that directly, as far as we know.

It’s more that Annie and Surma look, and presumably act in some ways, incredibly alike. They’re more like clones, or differently-aged identical twins, than an ordinary mother and daughter. Everyone who knew Surma has a moment of deja vu when they meet Annie; some never get over it.

Like, Donny was able to see her as her own person, and Anja never showed confusion about that.

Donny saw her exactly the same way the others did, at least at first:
"It’s as if Surma has come back to us."
He was kind enough to tell Annie he didn’t see her that way in “Microsat 5,” but he was acting as her therapist for that entire chapter. As for Anja...have we ever seen her compare or contrast Annie and Surma at all? She’s always been pretty guarded.

The Donlans are good people, but they’re also a bit detached by nature. And as the last scene with Idra reminded us, they deliberately cultivate some distance with the children. Annie and Kat never get to see their emotional reactions unfiltered.

What is it about James and Tony that makes them keep seeing Surma in Annie?

They loved Surma intimately, and she loved them. Renard and (maybe) Coyote and the psychopomps were the same way, although that’s probably about their etheric soul-vision as much as their feelings. The more clearly you see Surma--her inner self, not her public persona--the more clearly you see her in Annie.

It’s probably also significant that James & Tony are Surma & Annie’s spiritual opposites in some sense. Our Phoenix-lady is supernaturally attractive--a literal weirdness magnet, as the Headmaster observed. On the other hand, James fights supernatural beings for a living and has built up all kinds of defenses against them, while Tony was never comfortable with the supernatural and the psychopomps were particularly malicious towards him.

Which is to say, both etheric creatures and highly anti-etheric humans see Surma and Annie as the same being. ‘Cuz they are. They’re separate personalities, of course, each with its own memories and emotions...but as we’ve seen, Annie herself is easily fragmented.

Apr 28, 2021 7:53:31 GMT foxurus said:

I suppose it's hard to shake the feeling that Surma is inside Annie. Still, "two people even when one of them is a non-sentient dead spirit who can't possibly hear or observe anything happening" seems a bit outlandish as a trigger for his fear-of-multiple-people thing.

But dead spirits are often sentient in this universe. And when Tony yoinked Surma’s ghost out of Annie’s body she was remarkably well-defined. She didn’t open her eyes or speak, but it’s entirely possible that she continues to experience life through Annie, just like the Fire does. (You’ll notice that the Fire is also blind and mute when it’s separated from Annie, and so was Annie herself when Zimmy looked inside her head during Tony’s experiment.)

It makes me think of other stories about possession, like Walter de la Mare’s The Return. The problem is not necessarily that a ghost is consciously going “mwahaha, I will hijack this person’s body!” It’s more like...confusion. Bits and pieces of an alien personality keep showing through the person’s normal self. Tony’s brain tends to lock in on exactly one other person at a time, so it keeps rebooting whenever Annie flickers between Annieness and Surmaness.

(You may ask why he didn’t have the same problem with Surma herself, but Tony never met her mother, so if Surma channeled her mom from time to time he probably wouldn’t notice.)

Again, regardless of how you interpret the supernatural stuff, Annie does have a tendency toward multiple personalities. We’ve seen her as twins, we’ve seen her as Fire plus girl, we’ve seen her as girl plus mask. That’s not necessarily a bad thing--it lets her think more flexibly and channel more power than a single personality could--but it does make her hard for neurotypical folks to deal with. And since Tony is exceptionally uncomfortable with multiplicity, their respective quirks combine like baking soda and vinegar.

I wonder, when he changed the subject away from his parents, was that a voluntary thing, or is he unable to talk about them? Maybe someone had it out for his parents and he got caught in the collateral damage.

Could be. Or maybe his parents are still around, and chose to abandon him for his sake or theirs.

(Note, he wouldn't have this problem if he thought of Annie as Surma. The problem is that he thinks of her as Annie, but also Surma is there in a weird way.)

Well, yes, although if he thought of Annie as purely Surma we’d have much bigger problems! Annie has enough trouble with James in that department; she doesn’t need her dad thinking she’s his actual life partner. (Especially because Court Annie already seemed to be attempting that role.)

Maybe Anja and Donny have had those moments of deja vu, and they're just a lot better at masking it than James is, and a lot better at dealing with it than Tony?

That is exactly it, I think. They’re experts at masking, period.

[worldsong]

Apr 28, 2021 11:27:19 GMT silicondream said:

Apr 28, 2021 7:36:09 GMT wies said:

It shows his confusion well and how he never could completely perceive her as her own person; though he is trying to. It is hard to determine how worrying this is, because this could be something etherical or psychological. Though, it can't be just the inherited firespirit.

It’s not--most of the humans can’t perceive that directly, as far as we know.

It’s more that Annie and Surma look, and presumably act in some ways, incredibly alike. They’re more like clones, or differently-aged identical twins, than an ordinary mother and daughter. Everyone who knew Surma has a moment of deja vu when they meet Annie; some never get over it.

I see it as Annie being Surma's reincarnation, just that the reincarnation process occurred over several years rather than an instant death/rebirth case. Which also helps emphasize why it's difficult for people who knew Surma to not see her in Annie.

[Corvo]

Loving the panels transition here, if it can be called that.

[DonDueed]

Apr 28, 2021 8:13:16 GMT basser said:

... I been reading this comic waaaaaay too long to just accept going into this much rambling detail about a character quirk we've already thoroughly explored in the narrative. We know how Tony's thing works. ...

We know how Tony's thing works because we've hashed it out in endless detail in the Forum and comments.  In the comic itself, it's been an ongoing mystery that has baffled the Annies to the point of deep frustration.  Some of the other characters (Anja and Donald in particular) have shown some insight into his problems, but this is the first time we've gotten a full in-comic explanation of his issues with the Annies.

Which reminds me, somebody had better call the cookie factory and tell them to ramp up production.  There are a whole lot of commenters who had this nailed.

[Timberwere]

Apr 28, 2021 9:17:37 GMT V said:

We had that kneeling Annie in #2090, though.

Oh! You're right, of course. I had completely forgotten about that one.