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Post by Timberwere on Apr 14, 2021 7:03:40 GMT
Idra's outside perspective is proving accurate again, both in her view of Annie and of James' attitude towards Tony. |
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Post by Draxiss on Apr 14, 2021 7:06:07 GMT
In before Tom corrects the 'Anyimony' typo.
Edit: Corrected my typo of Tom's typo.
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Post by madjack on Apr 14, 2021 7:07:31 GMT
Donny staying quiet so far, despite knowing Eglamore is wrong about the circumstances around Tony's return.
Edit: I suppose those exact circumstances are none of anyone's business, especially Eggs' and Idra's.
Also, is that the cruise ship popping up in the background again?
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Post by hen3ry on Apr 14, 2021 7:10:35 GMT
Panel 4 gives a good reason to believe Jones had invited herself.
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Post by philman on Apr 14, 2021 7:13:30 GMT
Is this the first time we've seen Anja interact with Jones? She seems almost scared of her
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Apr 14, 2021 7:15:45 GMT
Is this the first time we've seen Anja interact with Jones? She seems almost scared of her I think they've been in the greeting hall at the same time more than once but I don't recall them interacting. Understandable reaction, though I dunno if fear is the exact word I'd use. Just the fact that Jones remembers everything perfectly and will do so forever is a little intimidating to me, worse than being recorded on camera normally. In before Tom corrects the 'Anyimony' typo.
New proposed name for all possible alternate timeline Antimonies: Anyimony. |
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Post by basser on Apr 14, 2021 7:18:39 GMT
Gosh dang it I just want to see Jones and Tony talk already. Especially with someone else in the room so we can find out if his powers of conditional social skills count Jones as a person. If they don't that's suuuuper interesting, and if she does count that's still a win cause then we get a beautiful rendition of two planks of wood.
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Post by madjack on Apr 14, 2021 7:21:45 GMT
Is this the first time we've seen Anja interact with Jones? She seems almost scared of her One of Anja's talents appears to be seeing into the truth of things, like being able to tell the bound dog was just an animated tree. Given the interaction we've just seen combined with the page comment, I bet she tried that on Jones once and got either no reading at all or something so alien that she legit can't parse it. |
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Post by Viridian on Apr 14, 2021 7:28:49 GMT
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Post by shadow3 on Apr 14, 2021 7:32:09 GMT
Idra's great at telling it like it is.
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Post by silicondream on Apr 14, 2021 7:50:17 GMT
Is this the first time we've seen Anja interact with Jones? She seems almost scared of her Perhaps "Anyimony" wasn't a typo, and Jones was deliberately fusing their names in order to put Anja off guard, or encourage her to think about her own relationship with Annie. Probably just wildspec, but Jones does sometimes provoke people in order to assess them. |
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Post by arf on Apr 14, 2021 7:50:19 GMT
Is this the first time we've seen Anja interact with Jones? She seems almost scared of her I think they've been in the greeting hall at the same time more than once but I don't recall them interacting. Understandable reaction, though I dunno if fear is the exact word I'd use. Just the fact that Jones remembers everything perfectly and will do so forever is a little intimidating to me, worse than being recorded on camera normally. Especially if 'good times' are the topic of discussion. |
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Post by flowsthead on Apr 14, 2021 8:13:16 GMT
Not that Annie hasn't acted spoiled before, she absolutely has, but what does Idra know about it? That feels...weird to me. It feels like she makes a lot of quick judgements based on little evidence. "All the attention of the Court and Coyote" makes it sound like Annie had a happy fun time with everyone fawning over her.
Even if we take as given that Annie is spoiled (although really, compared to who?), I don't think Idra's perspective is justified.
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Post by kayback on Apr 14, 2021 9:38:41 GMT
Not that Annie hasn't acted spoiled before, she absolutely has, but what does Idra know about it? That feels...weird to me. It feels like she makes a lot of quick judgements based on little evidence. "All the attention of the Court and Coyote" makes it sound like Annie had a happy fun time with everyone fawning over her. Even if we take as given that Annie is spoiled (although really, compared to who?), I don't think Idra's perspective is justified. This feels very much like Red dressing Annie down for endangering her friends when literally everyone involved knew how dangerous Jeanne was and volunteered. Fairly unjustified an out of left field. Almost like Tom is trying to lead the reader somewhere specific and not organically. |
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Post by silicondream on Apr 14, 2021 9:44:28 GMT
It feels like she makes a lot of quick judgements based on little evidence. That's certainly Idra's character, I'd agree! "Happy" isn't necessarily the word--Annie's experienced plenty of loss and tragedy--but yes, I'd say she benefits a lot from all the attention. A lot of the earlier chapters boil down to "Annie does something dangerous and then her allies move heaven and earth to protect her from the fallout." Almost everyone else her age, I think; Annie's had certain privileges relative to the other students since she arrived. She got special treatment from Anja and James for being Tony & Surma's kid; Jones took her under her wing; she was the star student of the medium training program; and then she started working for Coyote, which made her one of the most important people in the forest. There have been a number of scenes like this where people have warned Annie that she was pushing the limits of the Court's good will, and she's responded--correctly--that they seem to let her do whatever she wants. Annie's also very charismatic, particularly with etheric entities. She has an entire pantheon of gods and spirits and whatnot who praise her, flirt with her, advise her and protect her. (And also try to kill her occasionally, but it's still attention.) Most teenagers in her world (or any world) don't get that perk. |
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Post by pyradonis on Apr 14, 2021 10:00:35 GMT
Is that the first time, an adult from the Court has called her "Miss Jones"? Not that Annie hasn't acted spoiled before, she absolutely has, but what does Idra know about it? That feels...weird to me. It feels like she makes a lot of quick judgements based on little evidence. Seems she is the perfect partner for Eglamore then. |
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Post by aline on Apr 14, 2021 10:02:50 GMT
Not that Annie hasn't acted spoiled before, she absolutely has, but what does Idra know about it? Annie was the Forest medium and she visited many times, including an entire summer with the Anwyns at Coyote's say-so. We know there were exaggerated rumors about her circulating among Forest creatures. The teenage girl who got the job of speaking in the name of the Forest even though she doesn't live there, who got carried around by Ysengrin and scolded Coyote on a regular basis... Idra 100% has heard about Annie and had opinions about these things long before meeting her. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Apr 14, 2021 10:05:05 GMT
I think they've been in the greeting hall at the same time more than once but I don't recall them interacting. Understandable reaction, though I dunno if fear is the exact word I'd use. Just the fact that Jones remembers everything perfectly and will do so forever is a little intimidating to me, worse than being recorded on camera normally. Especially if 'good times' are the topic of discussion. That was just tobacco.  I am glad I grew up before cctv and cellphones were recording everything everywhere, though. But consider this, dear forum-goers: Jones is likely to outlive the Voyager golden records, has already probably interacted with more non-human intelligent life, and is vastly more durable. |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Apr 14, 2021 10:19:59 GMT
Also, is that the cruise ship popping up in the background again? The cruise ship could simply be waiting to evacuate the Court if it becomes necessary. Maybe the cruise ship now hosts the missing ether power station experiment. |
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Post by flowsthead on Apr 14, 2021 10:21:07 GMT
It feels like she makes a lot of quick judgements based on little evidence. That's certainly Idra's character, I'd agree! "Happy" isn't necessarily the word--Annie's experienced plenty of loss and tragedy--but yes, I'd say she benefits a lot from all the attention. A lot of the earlier chapters boil down to "Annie does something dangerous and then her allies move heaven and earth to protect her from the fallout." Almost everyone else her age, I think; Annie's had certain privileges relative to the other students since she arrived. She got special treatment from Anja and James for being Tony & Surma's kid; Jones took her under her wing; she was the star student of the medium training program; and then she started working for Coyote, which made her one of the most important people in the forest. There have been a number of scenes like this where people have warned Annie that she was pushing the limits of the Court's good will, and she's responded--correctly--that they seem to let her do whatever she wants. Annie's also very charismatic, particularly with etheric entities. She has an entire pantheon of gods and spirits and whatnot who praise her, flirt with her, advise her and protect her. (And also try to kill her occasionally, but it's still attention.) Most teenagers in her world (or any world) don't get that perk. I don't necessarily disagree, but it's all a matter of interpretation. Spoiled to me does not imply certain privileges as much as it implies a certain attitude. Her attitude was certainly one of rebelliousness, but it's not particularly greater than any of the other kids, who shirk the rules when they can (it wasn't just Annie who reprogrammed the laser cows on the camping trip, for example). Jack and Kat have both done whatever they wanted with seemingly little interruption. Even if we take it that the Court doesn't usually know or care what Kat is up to, ignoring her after the incident with the ship is unrealistic. As far as her special treatment from Anja and James, they're nice to her? They don't seem particularly more strict with other kids. She's Kat's friend and their childhood friend's daughter. It's a perfectly normal amount of attention. Jones, sure, that is a special kind of attention, but Jones also pays a lot of attention to Parley and Andrew. I get what you're driving at, but: A) Idra knows none of this, or very little of it anyway. B) Are we defining any kind of attention as being spoiled? Let's be real. Probably 99% of the Court kids have not done any kind of hard labor, or had a job, or been affected much by anything that we would consider "real". When I say she isn't particularly spoiled, I'm comparing her to the Court kids. They're all privileged kids. Annie is of course included in this, as her time in the Forest in the extra comic showed. But she doesn't stand out in that way. I haven't really seen any signs of racism or classism from the students, no homophobia, no physical abuse from any of the teachers. What are we even talking about here? They all get to live a mostly idyllic life. I think you're also really underplaying the multiple murder attempts. Let's count it off: 1) Renard 2) Shadow-controlled Robot 3) Jeanne 4) Ysengrin These four are just in her first year there. And I don't remember her getting any kind of counseling for any of that. I don't think we should count any kind of attention as the type that will spoil you. And if that's the direction we are taking it, then we should probably also talk about the teenager with a death wish that keeps getting involved in every situation that might murder her. Of the kids that are only worried about dating and getting their homework done, and the kid who is trying to make sure she mediates relations between the Court and Forest people while trying to keep an insane god happy, which of those sounds more spoiled? Idra has no perspective on this because all of the Court kids seem spoiled compared to the Forest kids. And she's right! But that's a bad comparison. |
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Post by madjack on Apr 14, 2021 10:38:36 GMT
Also, is that the cruise ship popping up in the background again? The cruise ship could simply be waiting to evacuate the Court if it becomes necessary. That is waaaaay too logical... Maybe the cruise ship now hosts the missing ether power station experiment. Now we're talking. |
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Post by dramastix on Apr 14, 2021 11:34:16 GMT
Not that Annie hasn't acted spoiled before, she absolutely has, but what does Idra know about it? Annie was the Forest medium and she visited many times, including an entire summer with the Anwyns at Coyote's say-so. We know there were exaggerated rumors about her circulating among Forest creatures. The teenage girl who got the job of speaking in the name of the Forest even though she doesn't live there, who got carried around by Ysengrin and scolded Coyote on a regular basis... Idra 100% has heard about Annie and had opinions about these things long before meeting her. Came in to say this. Idra was around when Annie spent her summer in the forest and sulked when she was expected to help. That reaction was almost certainly a topic of discussion so it's possible Idra is just piecing together what she now understands of the rest of Annie's background to explain her perception of her then. OF COURSE she's jumping to conclusions - this conversation is skating over the emotional damage Tony did when he returned (except for Egger's protestations and he's not articulating himself very well). Agree, I'm looking forward to the eventual conversation between Jones and Tony. I don't think Jones needed any of these discussions to find out how Annie was treated - she had to have known at the time. Hoping the conversation with Tony will clarify her actual purpose here. |
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Post by Polyhymnia on Apr 14, 2021 12:33:16 GMT
It’s also entirely possible that Idra’s just reacting to what was said: “unruly,” unwilling to be ruled/follow the rules. If Annie doesn’t respect authority and does her own thing, then stops when her father comes back (implied by “before” and not “after” Tony returned), it’s easy enough to jump to the conclusion of “spoiled,” not in the sense of “given privileges” but “didn’t receive proper/deserved discipline,” which seems an important part of forest elf culture, as seen by this incident: www.gunnerkrigg.com/extracomics/comic.php?c=Annie%20in%20the%20Forest%20Part%202&p=22 |
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caber
Junior Member
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Post by caber on Apr 14, 2021 13:29:36 GMT
It’s also entirely possible that Idra’s just reacting to what was said: “unruly,” unwilling to be ruled/follow the rules. If Annie doesn’t respect authority and does her own thing, then stops when her father comes back (implied by “before” and not “after” Tony returned), it’s easy enough to jump to the conclusion of “spoiled,” not in the sense of “given privileges” but “didn’t receive proper/deserved discipline,” which seems an important part of forest elf culture, as seen by this incident: www.gunnerkrigg.com/extracomics/comic.php?c=Annie%20in%20the%20Forest%20Part%202&p=22I feel like this is a very important point: this is coming through the lense of a forest elf, with a VERY different culture to that of the court. I feel like a lot of people are taking Idra to be Tom's mouthpiece, but really she's just an alien perspective on the situation. But I will say: Annie has had SERIOUS Harry Potter vibes since the beginning, in my opinion. |
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Post by worldsong on Apr 14, 2021 13:42:02 GMT
That's certainly Idra's character, I'd agree! "Happy" isn't necessarily the word--Annie's experienced plenty of loss and tragedy--but yes, I'd say she benefits a lot from all the attention. A lot of the earlier chapters boil down to "Annie does something dangerous and then her allies move heaven and earth to protect her from the fallout." Almost everyone else her age, I think; Annie's had certain privileges relative to the other students since she arrived. She got special treatment from Anja and James for being Tony & Surma's kid; Jones took her under her wing; she was the star student of the medium training program; and then she started working for Coyote, which made her one of the most important people in the forest. There have been a number of scenes like this where people have warned Annie that she was pushing the limits of the Court's good will, and she's responded--correctly--that they seem to let her do whatever she wants. Annie's also very charismatic, particularly with etheric entities. She has an entire pantheon of gods and spirits and whatnot who praise her, flirt with her, advise her and protect her. (And also try to kill her occasionally, but it's still attention.) Most teenagers in her world (or any world) don't get that perk. I don't necessarily disagree, but it's all a matter of interpretation. Spoiled to me does not imply certain privileges as much as it implies a certain attitude. Her attitude was certainly one of rebelliousness, but it's not particularly greater than any of the other kids, who shirk the rules when they can (it wasn't just Annie who reprogrammed the laser cows on the camping trip, for example). Jack and Kat have both done whatever they wanted with seemingly little interruption. Even if we take it that the Court doesn't usually know or care what Kat is up to, ignoring her after the incident with the ship is unrealistic. As far as her special treatment from Anja and James, they're nice to her? They don't seem particularly more strict with other kids. She's Kat's friend and their childhood friend's daughter. It's a perfectly normal amount of attention. Jones, sure, that is a special kind of attention, but Jones also pays a lot of attention to Parley and Andrew. I get what you're driving at, but: A) Idra knows none of this, or very little of it anyway. B) Are we defining any kind of attention as being spoiled? Let's be real. Probably 99% of the Court kids have not done any kind of hard labor, or had a job, or been affected much by anything that we would consider "real". When I say she isn't particularly spoiled, I'm comparing her to the Court kids. They're all privileged kids. Annie is of course included in this, as her time in the Forest in the extra comic showed. But she doesn't stand out in that way. I haven't really seen any signs of racism or classism from the students, no homophobia, no physical abuse from any of the teachers. What are we even talking about here? They all get to live a mostly idyllic life. I think you're also really underplaying the multiple murder attempts. Let's count it off: 1) Renard 2) Shadow-controlled Robot 3) Jeanne 4) Ysengrin These four are just in her first year there. And I don't remember her getting any kind of counseling for any of that. I don't think we should count any kind of attention as the type that will spoil you. And if that's the direction we are taking it, then we should probably also talk about the teenager with a death wish that keeps getting involved in every situation that might murder her. Of the kids that are only worried about dating and getting their homework done, and the kid who is trying to make sure she mediates relations between the Court and Forest people while trying to keep an insane god happy, which of those sounds more spoiled? Idra has no perspective on this because all of the Court kids seem spoiled compared to the Forest kids. And she's right! But that's a bad comparison. While I wouldn't call Annie spoiled she does have what I could best describe as Protagonist Syndrome, which is what Idra most likely is referring to.
Throughout her stay in Gunnerkrigg Court Annie has been treated as special, or possibly even unique. Of course that's in part because she is unusual, half fire elemental with innate etheric empathy and on speaking terms with the psychopomps. And then she developed a very close bond with both Coyote (basically the god of the forest) and Ysengrin.
The result is that, as much as Annie attracts trouble, she also seems to assume that she's involved in any situation and that it's up to her to resolve them. She breaks the rules without thinking twice, for the longest time she had extreme difficulty relying on any adults no matter how helpful they might've been in the past, and until her father returned and (rather cruelly and unfairly) reminded her of her position only Jones really put effort into trying to restrain her.
When Idra calls Annie spoiled I think it's less "I'm entitled to everything" and more "The world revolves around me". And even if Idra doesn't know everything about Annie she must've formed an image based on what Annie was like in the forest and what she's heard from Eglamore.
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Post by ysenfrown on Apr 14, 2021 13:52:49 GMT
Is this the first time we've seen Anja interact with Jones? She seems almost scared of her Other than the instances others have pointed out, the only other moment I can remember is in Microsat 5, when Anja pulls off Plan Theta (or Plam Baking). When, y'know, Jones needs her phone. Anja being a little afraid of Jones makes sense to why Jones wasn't bullied into baking—I can't imagine Jones saying no to baking otherwise. Not that Annie hasn't acted spoiled before, she absolutely has, but what does Idra know about it? That feels...weird to me. It feels like she makes a lot of quick judgements based on little evidence. "All the attention of the Court and Coyote" makes it sound like Annie had a happy fun time with everyone fawning over her. Even if we take as given that Annie is spoiled (although really, compared to who?), I don't think Idra's perspective is justified. I agree. I think Idra's a fun character and I've loved her appearances so far, but Tom's use of her as devil's advocate (I guess that's not really the correct term here—more like shedding light on the situation?) makes her seem a little bit righteous without sense? Or at least I feel like we, as the reader, are supposed to be like, Ahh, Idra is in the right here, which she hasn't really earned IMO. It reminds me of when Donny tells Annie about her father, which reshapes how we see Tony, which works because Donny's an established, trustworthy character. Idra and Annie have BEEF, where Idra's been established to not really understand the things that make Annie uncomfortable, and also jokes that Annie has a crush on Eggy (which ofc could be the truth—but please tom, PLEASE don't make her crush on jimmy oh my). In that case, shouldn't we take Id's insight with a grain—or a lot of grains—of salt? If anything, I'd buy Cvet's holistic perspective over Idra's, as Cvet is the Court's most notorious gossip. |
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Post by frogspawned on Apr 14, 2021 14:09:37 GMT
I thought it was Idra who had the beef and made it clear to Annie that she couldn't have any of her beef. |
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Post by ysenfrown on Apr 14, 2021 14:16:24 GMT
I thought it was Idra who had the beef and made it clear to Annie that she couldn't have any of her beef.  |
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Post by ctso74 on Apr 14, 2021 14:55:59 GMT
Well, Idra's not wrong. Not wholly right... but not wrong. She may seem like she's jumping to conclusions, but a hypothesis quickly formed is quickly changed with new input. Forest elves may simply be more "brainstorming" sort of people. You could call it being more "instinctual", but it is a valid form of hypothesis generation. Not how I live my life, but "different horses for different courses". Gosh dang it I just want to see Jones and Tony talk already. Especially with someone else in the room so we can find out if his powers of conditional social skills count Jones as a person. If they don't that's suuuuper interesting, and if she does count that's still a win cause then we get a beautiful rendition of two planks of wood. Now I'm imaging, her walking into his house without a word, they stare at each other for a few panels, then Tony just goes about his day, as if she's not there. How many pages could that go on for? |
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Post by todd on Apr 14, 2021 16:22:37 GMT
While I wouldn't call Annie spoiled she does have what I could best describe as Protagonist Syndrome, which is what Idra most likely is referring to. Throughout her stay in Gunnerkrigg Court Annie has been treated as special, or possibly even unique. Of course that's in part because she is unusual, half fire elemental with innate etheric empathy and on speaking terms with the psychopomps. And then she developed a very close bond with both Coyote (basically the god of the forest) and Ysengrin. The result is that, as much as Annie attracts trouble, she also seems to assume that she's involved in any situation and that it's up to her to resolve them. She breaks the rules without thinking twice, for the longest time she had extreme difficulty relying on any adults no matter how helpful they might've been in the past, and until her father returned and (rather cruelly and unfairly) reminded her of her position only Jones really put effort into trying to restrain her. When Idra calls Annie spoiled I think it's less "I'm entitled to everything" and more "The world revolves around me". And even if Idra doesn't know everything about Annie she must've formed an image based on what Annie was like in the forest and what she's heard from Eglamore.
Good points. One I might add; other characters have frequently resolved matters far more often than Annie herself has done, despite her efforts; she often gets rescued by someone else (like Kat or Eglamore) rather than rescuing herself, for example. It was Zimmy, rather than Annie, who solved the "spider possessing Jack" problem. And we got a mention, in the last chapter, that it will be Kat who guides the Court in a better direction (which will presumably also solve the Court vs. Forest conflict, since the root of that is the Court's insistence on meddling with the Ether; presumably, once Kat steers the Court in a new direction, peace between the two groups will become achievable). Annie might have a small role to play in that, but it might be largely Kat's achievement with Annie mostly watching from the sidelines. (Not to mention that some of Annie's accomplishments have backfired. Sending Robot across the bridge to return Shadow2 home, for example; she unwittingly escalated the tension between the Court and the Forest that way, and on top of it all, Shadow2 wound up returning to the Court and staying there after all.) Is it possible that Annie may turn out to be the protagonist in the sense of "viewpoint character/person who does much learning and growing" sense, but not in the sense of "protagonist-as-hero", and that one of her biggest lessons will be learning that she's not the one who saves the day (that role going to other characters like Kat, Zimmy, etc.)? |
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