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Post by 0o0f on Apr 5, 2021 15:58:25 GMT
I gotta say, I'm loving the "there are still, internally, two Antimonies" line of theorizing, and I hope it does go this way.
I'm part of a plural system; for those who don't know, this is when for some reason (usually trauma), someone's psyche is unable to form one coherent identity, and instead forms multiple, parallel identities, who have their own perspectives, desires, emotions, etc. (You may have heard of Dissociative Identity Disorder/DID before, which is a psychiatric condition where plurality is a symptom.) Annie's narrative really resonates with me as a plural narrative; the way she dissociated immediately when her father came back, the way she purposefully "cut off" a part of herself in response, and then later on, the way the narrative literally split her into two separate people.
Annie's character has always had an aspect of duality and purposefully dissociated parts, and I'd be incredibly excited to see this specific part of the story resolve with some form of "the two internal pieces of myself learning to work together" because of how much that genuinely resonates as a plural experience. I'm pretty sure Tom didn't do this on purpose, it's probably one of those cases of "accidental rep," but honestly, I've never seen a narrative like this in media presented so respectfully and in such a directly relatable way (especially exploring a traumatic experience's role in this kind of psychological experience without devolving into voyeurism), so I'm excited no matter what.
It might not be unintentional. I recall reading something about how a lot of this was based on Tom's own experience. |
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Post by warrl on Apr 5, 2021 16:03:40 GMT
What I find interesting is how everyone is saying this to Jones of all people. Many of the characters have legitimate reasons to distrust Anthony (especially Annie's friends) but I feel part of this distrust comes from how he appears so unemotional and detached, which is how Jones is all the time. That's the key I think: "all the time". Jones is politely emotionless all the time, with everybody. Tony is politely emotionless with groups, friendly with most individuals, cruelly emotionless - and sometimes just plain cruel - with Annie whether in private or public. |
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Post by Gemminie on Apr 5, 2021 16:16:48 GMT
My thoughts about today's page:
On the last page, Paz said she didn't want to go into detail about her confrontation with Annie, and Jones said she didn't want Paz to go into detail about it, but here goes Paz into detail about it. Perhaps Jones successfully put Paz enough at ease that she started talking about it. Paz probably really wants to talk to somebody about it, so now's her chance.
Anyway, her "my Kat" is interesting, and others have already pointed out that it sounds possessive (literally, in a grammatical sense), but that just might be a cultural thing. Or not. Tom loves to leave things ambiguous, so we don't know whether that's a sign that she's super-clingy (which wouldn't be a surprise) or whether it's just a thing that people say where she's from.
Paz says Annie was "split," but we don't know where she gets that term from – her own imagination about what happened, Kat's theories about what happened, or Annie's (potential) off-camera explanation of what happened. I'm a proponent of the "Loup split Annie" theory rather than the "Loup grabbed an Annie from an alternate timeline" theory, but I'm not going to try to use Paz's word choice as evidence, because it's very weak evidence.
"When Annie was split, Kat felt helpless and confused," though. I guess that was when Kat started feeling helpless and confused, because she didn't know how to fix Annie, not knowing what was wrong. But that was nothing compared to her helplessness and confusion when she learned that she'd have to do the impossible to save Annie from the bridge fall.
Jones' "And now?" is just to keep the ball rolling. Paz is super happy that Kat's happier now.
And then Paz, like Cvet and the others, turns the conversation to Tony, and how hard they think he makes Annie's life. But we don't watch Paz as she says this; we watch Jones as she hears it. She's like a video recorder. This is probably a sign that the next page will be a shift in scene, but whether it'll be back to the present or on to another interview flashback is hard to say.
Everything is evidence to Jones; this is all data. What Jones will do with it is ... really hard to predict. I'm really hoping we see a one-on-one conversation between Jones and Tony, alone in his house. It would be amazing to see the unemotional Jones guiding Tony to some realizations in a situation where he feels OK to open up. And interesting that she picks now to do that (assuming it happens) rather than any prior occasion in his entire life.
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Post by Gemminie on Apr 5, 2021 16:31:41 GMT
I gotta say, I'm loving the "there are still, internally, two Antimonies" line of theorizing, and I hope it does go this way.
I'm part of a plural system; for those who don't know, this is when for some reason (usually trauma), someone's psyche is unable to form one coherent identity, and instead forms multiple, parallel identities, who have their own perspectives, desires, emotions, etc. (You may have heard of Dissociative Identity Disorder/DID before, which is a psychiatric condition where plurality is a symptom.) Annie's narrative really resonates with me as a plural narrative; the way she dissociated immediately when her father came back, the way she purposefully "cut off" a part of herself in response, and then later on, the way the narrative literally split her into two separate people.
Annie's character has always had an aspect of duality and purposefully dissociated parts, and I'd be incredibly excited to see this specific part of the story resolve with some form of "the two internal pieces of myself learning to work together" because of how much that genuinely resonates as a plural experience. I'm pretty sure Tom didn't do this on purpose, it's probably one of those cases of "accidental rep," but honestly, I've never seen a narrative like this in media presented so respectfully and in such a directly relatable way (especially exploring a traumatic experience's role in this kind of psychological experience without devolving into voyeurism), so I'm excited no matter what.
I'm a proponent of that theory, and although I'm sure it's more complicated than that, this being GC and all, it's made me go back and reread, looking for ways in which Annie's more than one person. And there are multiple ways. But yes, I've been thinking that if the theory's true, she's in a situation that's very like DID. I'm not plural, and that's why I haven't said anything about it before now, but I'm close to more than one person who is, which has made me aware of dissociation (which everyone does at times). It was pretty amazing to see Annie dissociating when faced with a traumatic situation (the wavy panels, the floating into space, and "I can't deal with you right now" – or even earlier, the wavy panels, the running away, the literally burning her bridges). |
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Post by exterminatecake on Apr 5, 2021 17:41:16 GMT
I gotta say, I'm loving the "there are still, internally, two Antimonies" line of theorizing, and I hope it does go this way.
I'm part of a plural system; for those who don't know, this is when for some reason (usually trauma), someone's psyche is unable to form one coherent identity, and instead forms multiple, parallel identities, who have their own perspectives, desires, emotions, etc. (You may have heard of Dissociative Identity Disorder/DID before, which is a psychiatric condition where plurality is a symptom.) Annie's narrative really resonates with me as a plural narrative; the way she dissociated immediately when her father came back, the way she purposefully "cut off" a part of herself in response, and then later on, the way the narrative literally split her into two separate people.
Annie's character has always had an aspect of duality and purposefully dissociated parts, and I'd be incredibly excited to see this specific part of the story resolve with some form of "the two internal pieces of myself learning to work together" because of how much that genuinely resonates as a plural experience. I'm pretty sure Tom didn't do this on purpose, it's probably one of those cases of "accidental rep," but honestly, I've never seen a narrative like this in media presented so respectfully and in such a directly relatable way (especially exploring a traumatic experience's role in this kind of psychological experience without devolving into voyeurism), so I'm excited no matter what.
I'm a proponent of that theory, and although I'm sure it's more complicated than that, this being GC and all, it's made me go back and reread, looking for ways in which Annie's more than one person. And there are multiple ways. But yes, I've been thinking that if the theory's true, she's in a situation that's very like DID. I'm not plural, and that's why I haven't said anything about it before now, but I'm close to more than one person who is, which has made me aware of dissociation (which everyone does at times). It was pretty amazing to see Annie dissociating when faced with a traumatic situation (the wavy panels, the floating into space, and "I can't deal with you right now" – or even earlier, the wavy panels, the running away, the literally burning her bridges). Yeah, the wavy panels, floating into space, etc, were really impressive to me when they were first posted (and continue to be impressive to this day, tbc). They're such a spot-on representation of what it feels like to dissociate, and I often come back to them when I want a good representation of that experience. |
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Post by badchemistry on Apr 5, 2021 18:34:02 GMT
Without checking the rest of the chapter's discussion threads, has anyone else put forward the idea that this might still all be an illusion? The SomethingAwful GC thread members have hit on the twin ideas of: 'This is all an illusion in Annie's head and Jones represents Annie's own mental antennae suspecting something isn't right and following the thread.' OR 'Everyone else has been sucked into the illusion of one Annie, and Jones, the only one not affected, is following the thread.' The most convincing argument for this is all these separate characters seem to be bringing up Anthony's treatment of each of them being different, virtually unprompted, and it's starting to look like a subconscious trying to get a message out. Either of these would go a ways to explaining why the chapter is called "The Mind Cage" but has so far done nothing but re-state Annie's parental issues over and over. I honestly took the chapter name to mean the mental cage Tony has on himself. If we look objectively at everything we've been shown, he seems to either; Fear Antimony or see her as a tool. I say this, because of the sheer amount of emotional abuse he hurls at her- Even going so far as to sacrifice her to get back Surma.Or Have some deep understanding of the trauma he put her through, and thus cannot stand her/has regrets.Or Genuinely cares for her, but has some mental block that disallows real progress to be made any longer. Aka, trauma.A literal cage of the mind. Let's also not forget Annie can aether plane- physically cage her inner fire elemental. If that is possible, couldn't you put a mental padlock on a human such as Tony, as well? That's just my interpretation though! |
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Post by homomculus on Apr 5, 2021 18:52:08 GMT
Even going so far as to sacrifice her to get back Surma. To be fair to him on this point, we have no reason to doubt what we were shown - he was tricked by... whatever those entities were, and he genuinely seems to have thought they were promising they could bring Surma back with no caveats, even though in hindsight he recognizes that's not what they actually said.
Short-sighted, certainly, and the whole search that led him there was a bad idea too, but I would be very hesitant to paint it as him trying to sacrifice Antimony.
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Post by hp on Apr 5, 2021 20:13:42 GMT
(incidentally, I still wonder if she would have been able to withstand Coyote) for intentionally causing instability. Well, Loup chose to handle Jones by chucking her into space, So I'd guess their (Coyote's or Loup's) options regarding her might be limited What I find interesting is how everyone is saying this to Jones of all people. Many of the characters have legitimate reasons to distrust Anthony (especially Annie's friends) but I feel part of this distrust comes from how he appears so unemotional and detached, which is how Jones is all the time. In the present day everyone seems to like her(from Renard to Paz) even though half of them are aware a lot of her behavior is mimicry to build trust and that she might not even be capable of emotions. Their experience with Anthony is him being a detached a-hole to Anne and a rigid teacher. Jones has interacted with the kids in a whole lot of situations and she can be pretty flexible towards them (we've mostly seen her cutting Annie some slack, but Annie is the protagonist and the comic focuses on her. IIRC there wasn't any indication that kind of behaviour from Jones was exclusive to her relation with Annie) |
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Post by 0o0f on Apr 5, 2021 21:16:19 GMT
I honestly took the chapter name to mean the mental cage Tony has on himself. If we look objectively at everything we've been shown, he seems to either; Is it necessarily either/or? Seems to me his feelings towards Annie are rather conflicted. Hence he treaded the two Annies differently, as it made it easier for him to compartmentalise. |
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Post by antiyonder on Apr 5, 2021 21:24:38 GMT
So I need to really reread the whole story sometime (incidentally is it likely that out of print volumes may receive new prints or updated physical editions would be a thing?). But Tony being a strange man. Compared to anything before hand would this be the biggest understatement:-D? Or... www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2449Would that be Paz's dialogue in the last panel:-D? Edit: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1806There's that note, albeit possibly discriminatory:-D. |
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Post by blazingstar on Apr 5, 2021 22:13:29 GMT
I would say "I hope all the Paz haters are feeling really bad right around now", but I know better. However, to me, this is a huge redemption for Paz, and I'm proud of her growth.
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Post by flowsthead on Apr 5, 2021 22:19:34 GMT
I really really really hope we're finally going to get SOME clue about Anthony's past (Antimony's grandparents?!) It would be so wild if Annie and Jones are related through Tony. So insane. But it would explain why Jones seems a little preferential toward Annie sometimes (warning her of danger and such). And why Annie is so "important to the Court". And why she was so 'attractive' to ghosts and the psychopomps.......... hm. If she's related to both Jones AND a fire elemental, that's huge. Can Jones even have children? Can she have sex? I don't think either question has been answered, and I would be surprised if she can have kids. It's much more likely to me for Jones to be created by Annie/Kat in the future and sent back to the beginning of the Earth, rather than for Annie to be a descendant of Jones. I also think that Jones's interest in Annie is sincere. Very few people on a first meeting with Coyote can hold such a casual conversation with him the way Annie does the first time Jones sees her. www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=275 Annie is impressive in many ways, and Jones is interested in that. I agree with Annie that Jones cares more about people than she lets on, and I think she probably has a fondness for kids as well. Her being preferential towards Annie is not strange, and it should be noted she doesn't coddle Annie. Jones is never shy to correct, disagree, or tell Annie off. Especially since I think Jones respects Annie's intelligence, even if she recognizes Annie's emotional immaturity. |
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Post by blazingstar on Apr 5, 2021 22:20:16 GMT
What I find interesting is how everyone is saying this to Jones of all people. Many of the characters have legitimate reasons to distrust Anthony (especially Annie's friends) but I feel part of this distrust comes from how he appears so unemotional and detached, which is how Jones is all the time. In the present day everyone seems to like her(from Renard to Paz) even though half of them are aware a lot of her behavior is mimicry to build trust and that she might not even be capable of emotions. I wonder if this difference in treatment is going to be explored: like why did Eglamore never like Anthony when he seems the closest to Jones in personality? At risk of sounding pedantic, this conversation feels somewhat artificial. " It's a little personal, so let me go into detail about my feelings on it and on other things too, odd lady I barely know". It's not strange at all for people to open up about their innermost feelings, if someone just takes the time to sit them down and ask their thoughts out of genuine interest. Jones has interacted with humans for AS LONG AS HUMANS HAVE EXISTED. She knows the exact amount of dialogue engineering to get people to open up, especially children, well enough that she's passes for a great teacher, mentor, advisor, babysitter, and nanny. She could probably be an excellent psychological counselor if she really tried. |
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Post by flowsthead on Apr 5, 2021 22:28:48 GMT
I would say "I hope all the Paz haters are feeling really bad right around now", but I know better. However, to me, this is a huge redemption for Paz, and I'm proud of her growth. I gotta say, I have seen a number of people in the discussions making statements like this, and I hate to single you out, but I do want to address this. I would appreciate that we not turn this into a tribal thing for Paz haters and supporters. We have had different interpretations of Paz's character. I don't think we need to turn this into teams that make each other feel bad about anything. I would agree that I think some people take the Paz criticisms too far, but I also don't think this is character assassination. Paz being good here does not mean she wasn't bad elsewhere, the same as it would be for any other character. It's like Donald was telling Annie about her father, it's not about excusing his actions but understanding them. Knowing more about Anthony and his journey in that one chapter did not suddenly make all of his mistreatment better or go away, or even excuse them. He was, and still is, a pretty shitty father to Annie. But understanding him better let's us put him in context and make a person out of him rather than an amorphous villain. I think the same should apply here. Paz apologizing and regretting her actions will be a good thing, and I will be happy about it. But it doesn't make her past actions go away. I don't know why that should make me feel bad for criticizing her before. Character growth is a good thing, but that's almost besides the point. I'm more annoyed by the contentious language used here. I should also say that while I have criticized Paz in the past a lot, I don't hate her, and I doubt many others do, certainly less than the amount of people who actively hate Anthony. |
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Post by drmemory on Apr 5, 2021 23:42:42 GMT
Annie started it. (Which doesn't excuse Paz, but I think the feud will only end when Annie 'fesses up.) Haha! Sort of, but it was more an attempt to help Mort learn how to be scary than an actual attack on Paz.
Also, for a long time it seems like it was the only interesting thing Paz had to share about her own life! Remember the party, where Paz got embarrassed, which led to Kat being nice to Paz, which started the whole relationship? So it actually benefited Paz in the end. If she even knew about it...
Were we ever told if Annie ever told Kat about the clown thing? If she did, I suppose it's possible she may have told Paz, but I don't remember ever reading any of that.
Paz never seemed to be retaliating for anything, just acting out her jealousy.
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Post by pyradonis on Apr 5, 2021 23:45:50 GMT
It's not strange at all for people to open up about their innermost feelings, if someone just takes the time to sit them down and ask their thoughts out of genuine interest. Jones has interacted with humans for AS LONG AS HUMANS HAVE EXISTED. She knows the exact amount of dialogue engineering to get people to open up, especially children, well enough that she's passes for a great teacher, mentor, advisor, babysitter, and nanny. She could probably be an excellent psychological counselor if she really tried. And yet after all this time, she still occasionally manages to say or do something wildly inappropriate.
Were we ever told if Annie ever told Kat about the clown thing? If she did, I suppose it's possible she may have told Paz, but I don't remember ever reading any of that. We weren't. I personally think it's not unlikely Annie or Mort told Kat after they became friends as well. It's the story of Annie's and Mort's first meeting after all. I should also say that while I have criticized Paz in the past a lot, I don't hate her, and I doubt many others do, certainly less than the amount of people who actively hate Anthony. I think you are right, and I also feel the people actually hating Paz right now are vastly outnumbered by the people complaining about people who hate Paz. |
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Post by drmemory on Apr 5, 2021 23:51:38 GMT
Without checking the rest of the chapter's discussion threads, has anyone else put forward the idea that this might still all be an illusion? The SomethingAwful GC thread members have hit on the twin ideas of: 'This is all an illusion in Annie's head and Jones represents Annie's own mental antennae suspecting something isn't right and following the thread.' OR 'Everyone else has been sucked into the illusion of one Annie, and Jones, the only one not affected, is following the thread.' The most convincing argument for this is all these separate characters seem to be bringing up Anthony's treatment of each of them being different, virtually unprompted, and it's starting to look like a subconscious trying to get a message out. Either of these would go a ways to explaining why the chapter is called "The Mind Cage" but has so far done nothing but re-state Annie's parental issues over and over. At first, I thought we were still in a Zimmy mindscape. I'm not so sure any longer, now that we're seeing all this stuff with Jones and the other teens, but I'm still not convinced that a real merger has taken place.
I think we're seeing Zimmy's attempt to help Annie. What exactly that means... I'm not 100% sure. I will say, if the Annies got here by shifting, well we haven't seen Zimmy demonstrate any powers that would allow her to split off a new reality and pull a person from it into ours, and if she can't do that, I'm not sure why people think she could literally merge two people from different realities into one person. At least, not permanently.
So I wouldn't rule out the possibility of it all being an illusion, but my best guess is that it is something a little more complex than is obvious on the surface, like Zimmy sticking the minds of both Annies into one for a while. Does that mean there is another Annie body out there somewhere? Or maybe hanging out in Zimmyland? Maybe?
As for Kat being uncritically happy, I totally agree it's out of character, big time. Whatever has happened, I bet Annie immediately told her, and she is backing up her friend. Unconditional love. But there could be something quite different going on in her head. 
Or, it could all be an illusion, who knows? Well, other than Tom...
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Post by drmemory on Apr 5, 2021 23:58:24 GMT
Oh, right. The primary reason I'm no longer thinking this is all a Zimmyscape is Jones. She has stated she can't interact with the Ether or something along those lines. I doubt very much she could get sucked into one of Zimmy's things.
She's a magical null.
So what we are seeing is real, in some sense. Or totally in Annie's head, of course, but then why would Tom be showing us all this stuff that is happening out of her view? Has to be real...ish.
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Post by Runningflame on Apr 6, 2021 0:43:45 GMT
At risk of sounding pedantic, this conversation feels somewhat artificial. " It's a little personal, so let me go into detail about my feelings on it and on other things too, odd lady I barely know". As somebody else said, Paz probably really wanted to talk to somebody about it. Jones' statement of, essentially, "You don't have to tell me anything you don't want to," made her feel more comfortable with Jones, which made Jones feel like a safe person to confide in, which led to her telling Jones more than she would have if Jones had demanded details. |
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Post by saardvark on Apr 6, 2021 0:55:56 GMT
Oh, right. The primary reason I'm no longer thinking this is all a Zimmyscape is Jones. She has stated she can't interact with the Ether or something along those lines. I doubt very much she could get sucked into one of Zimmy's things. She's a magical null. So what we are seeing is real, in some sense. Or totally in Annie's head, of course, but then why would Tom be showing us all this stuff that is happening out of her view? Has to be real...ish. Maybe Zimmy has learned to control her reality warping to an extent, maybe for limited periods(?). Justice Annie had to "work at it" to learn to control her fire abilities, so Zimms maybe always had that possibility, but never really tried much because she hated the effect of the (uncontrolled) "gift" so much. |
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Post by blazingstar on Apr 6, 2021 1:40:25 GMT
I gotta say, I have seen a number of people in the discussions making statements like this, and I hate to single you out, but I do want to address this. I would appreciate that we not turn this into a tribal thing for Paz haters and supporters. We have had different interpretations of Paz's character. I don't think we need to turn this into teams that make each other feel bad about anything. I would agree that I think some people take the Paz criticisms too far, but I also don't think this is character assassination. Paz being good here does not mean she wasn't bad elsewhere, the same as it would be for any other character. It's like Donald was telling Annie about her father, it's not about excusing his actions but understanding them. Knowing more about Anthony and his journey in that one chapter did not suddenly make all of his mistreatment better or go away, or even excuse them. He was, and still is, a pretty shitty father to Annie. But understanding him better let's us put him in context and make a person out of him rather than an amorphous villain. I think the same should apply here. Paz apologizing and regretting her actions will be a good thing, and I will be happy about it. But it doesn't make her past actions go away. I don't know why that should make me feel bad for criticizing her before. Character growth is a good thing, but that's almost besides the point. I'm more annoyed by the contentious language used here. I should also say that while I have criticized Paz in the past a lot, I don't hate her, and I doubt many others do, certainly less than the amount of people who actively hate Anthony. I think you are right, and I also feel the people actually hating Paz right now are vastly outnumbered by the people complaining about people who hate Paz. You are both right, and I'm sorry. Some of the character interpretations have gotten REALLY passionate, but you're right, there's no need to worsen the divide in the discussion about her character. I know I hate it when other users do it. I'll do better to keep the toxicity down. (And maybe think twice about posting when I'm in a Depressive episode and my pessimism gets the better of me.) |
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Post by flowsthead on Apr 6, 2021 2:14:11 GMT
I gotta say, I have seen a number of people in the discussions making statements like this, and I hate to single you out, but I do want to address this. I would appreciate that we not turn this into a tribal thing for Paz haters and supporters. We have had different interpretations of Paz's character. I don't think we need to turn this into teams that make each other feel bad about anything. I would agree that I think some people take the Paz criticisms too far, but I also don't think this is character assassination. Paz being good here does not mean she wasn't bad elsewhere, the same as it would be for any other character. It's like Donald was telling Annie about her father, it's not about excusing his actions but understanding them. Knowing more about Anthony and his journey in that one chapter did not suddenly make all of his mistreatment better or go away, or even excuse them. He was, and still is, a pretty shitty father to Annie. But understanding him better let's us put him in context and make a person out of him rather than an amorphous villain. I think the same should apply here. Paz apologizing and regretting her actions will be a good thing, and I will be happy about it. But it doesn't make her past actions go away. I don't know why that should make me feel bad for criticizing her before. Character growth is a good thing, but that's almost besides the point. I'm more annoyed by the contentious language used here. I should also say that while I have criticized Paz in the past a lot, I don't hate her, and I doubt many others do, certainly less than the amount of people who actively hate Anthony. I think you are right, and I also feel the people actually hating Paz right now are vastly outnumbered by the people complaining about people who hate Paz. You are both right, and I'm sorry. Some of the character interpretations have gotten REALLY passionate, but you're right, there's no need to worsen the divide in the discussion about her character. I know I hate it when other users do it. I'll do better to keep the toxicity down. (And maybe think twice about posting when I'm in a Depressive episode and my pessimism gets the better of me.) S'cool. Again, I wasn't trying to single you out, it was just the latest example. I even liked another one of your posts in this same discussion since I thought you made a good point! Plus, I know I definitely could have worded some of my posts better as well in previous discussions. We all like the comic a lot, so it's easy to get passionate about it. <3 |
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Post by saardvark on Apr 6, 2021 2:27:29 GMT
You are both right, and I'm sorry. Some of the character interpretations have gotten REALLY passionate, but you're right, there's no need to worsen the divide in the discussion about her character. I know I hate it when other users do it. I'll do better to keep the toxicity down. (And maybe think twice about posting when I'm in a Depressive episode and my pessimism gets the better of me.) You are a good person and a blazing star. Not to worry. |
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Post by Runningflame on Apr 6, 2021 3:26:53 GMT
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Post by Corvo on Apr 6, 2021 3:33:30 GMT
It's not strange at all for people to open up about their innermost feelings, if someone just takes the time to sit them down and ask their thoughts out of genuine interest. Jones has interacted with humans for AS LONG AS HUMANS HAVE EXISTED. She knows the exact amount of dialogue engineering to get people to open up, especially children, well enough that she's passes for a great teacher, mentor, advisor, babysitter, and nanny. She could probably be an excellent psychological counselor if she really tried. As somebody else said, Paz probably really wanted to talk to somebody about it. Jones' statement of, essentially, "You don't have to tell me anything you don't want to," made her feel more comfortable with Jones, which made Jones feel like a safe person to confide in, which led to her telling Jones more than she would have if Jones had demanded details. Yes, I had already taken it into consideration when I wrote my comment. Still feels forced to me, but to each their own. |
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Post by aline on Apr 6, 2021 7:15:45 GMT
I wonder if this difference in treatment is going to be explored: like why did Eglamore never like Anthony when he seems the closest to Jones in personality? I am reminded that Surma could not stand Jones even though she was ok with Anthony even before she fell in love with him. |
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Post by aline on Apr 6, 2021 9:37:07 GMT
I would agree that I think some people take the Paz criticisms too far, but I also don't think this is character assassination. Paz being good here does not mean she wasn't bad elsewhere, the same as it would be for any other character. I essentially agree with you, but I'll add this: Ever since the entire Anthony arc, I have grown extremely bored and annoyed at "is character x Good or Bad, and did they meet accountability criteria for bad thing z" conversations. It's not about liking or hating x, and not about how bad z really was or whatever. Every time we go back to the moral assessment of characters' actions, and the ensuing tracking of formal reparations, I wish we were discussing literally anything else. I react negatively to some of those messages not because I think Paz did no wrong, or should be forgiven, or whatever, but because I couldn't possibly care less that Paz was mean on page 2250 and yet we've already discussed it again, and again, and again, and I know we are still not done. I guess I should take a break from the forum for this chapter, especially considering the mind cage is Anthony's and this is another one that has been beaten to death already and yet I just know Tony's accountability score will need to be analyzed one more time. Not directed at you personnally btw, just venting. Ignore me. I'll be back later. |
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Post by pyradonis on Apr 6, 2021 11:53:14 GMT
You are both right, and I'm sorry. Some of the character interpretations have gotten REALLY passionate, but you're right, there's no need to worsen the divide in the discussion about her character. I know I hate it when other users do it. I'll do better to keep the toxicity down. (And maybe think twice about posting when I'm in a Depressive episode and my pessimism gets the better of me.) Don't worry about it. I'm sure my posts are less polite on average as well. Basically everyone I know is more irritable than usual, which is to be blamed onto this ongoing pandemic situation. I'm really happy to have this forum here, it is like one of the few gemuetlich outside places I can still visit anytime. BTW, I don't know if you have been reading the forum when "The Tree" was the current chapter. Now there was some actual vitriolic hate bubbling up in the discussion threads and, boy, do I not miss it. |
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Post by pyradonis on Apr 6, 2021 11:54:33 GMT
Oh, right. The primary reason I'm no longer thinking this is all a Zimmyscape is Jones. She has stated she can't interact with the Ether or something along those lines. I doubt very much she could get sucked into one of Zimmy's things. She's a magical null. So what we are seeing is real, in some sense. Or totally in Annie's head, of course, but then why would Tom be showing us all this stuff that is happening out of her view? Has to be real...ish. Jones can still turn up in Zimmyscape as an illusion, go read "Divine" again. But yes, it's highly unlikely all these scenes would be shown if this were not the real Jones. |
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Post by saardvark on Apr 6, 2021 12:12:54 GMT
You are both right, and I'm sorry. Some of the character interpretations have gotten REALLY passionate, but you're right, there's no need to worsen the divide in the discussion about her character. I know I hate it when other users do it. I'll do better to keep the toxicity down. (And maybe think twice about posting when I'm in a Depressive episode and my pessimism gets the better of me.) Don't worry about it. I'm sure my posts are less polite on average as well. Basically everyone I know is more irritable than usual, which is to be blamed onto this ongoing pandemic situation. I'm really happy to have this forum here, it is like one of the few gemuetlich outside places I can still visit anytime. BTW, I don't know if you have been reading the forum when "The Tree" was the current chapter. Now there was some actual vitriolic hate bubbling up in the discussion threads and, boy, do I not miss it. extra points for use of "gemuetlich"... (but raises a question: how can you get umlauts on the forum?) |
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