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Post by maxptc on Mar 24, 2021 18:35:52 GMT
My confidence that Annie is good and truly back to one body without major negative side effects is growing stronger with each page.
I also still don't understand what more information about the solution people want. We got "answers" about the whole shifting process from start to finish, just not details on the how, or the technical processes occurring, which we never really get cause its magic.
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Post by fia on Mar 24, 2021 18:47:03 GMT
Yeah I think it makes sense that Parley doesn't trust Tony. Even though many of us are more sympathetic to him than before, it doesn't mean he's atoned for leaving for 3 years, or that everyone who is friends with Annie should be ready to forgive him. Annie wants a relationship with him and the way to repair it is to keep trying to connect; she has way more gumption than me in that sense.
Parley et. al. would be right to keep distrusting him a little.
And Kat, too, if she knows that Tony is not amiable with Annie the way he is with anyone other than Annie one-on-one. It's really weird..!
I'm not sure whether or not the "mind cage" is a cage for Tony ––– but the chapter's really starting to narratively bend toward Tony's side of his relationship with Annie, so I'm going to stick to my original Wildspec and say because the ether in Gunnerverse is substantially real and substantially about psychology, whatever Tony's problem is might be etheric. In some ways it would be disappointing (insofar as the very human side of Tony's problem is what makes it so charged; making his problem etheric demotes that just a tiny bit) but it would make for a really interesting further arc in Gunnerverse imho.
EDIT to add: if Jones is our reader's view into Tony, it might be really good, because she is generally fascinated by human psychology in a "I don't understand it" kind of way and she'll be pretty pointed and blunt in a way we might appreciate as readers. Hope they DO talk.
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Post by mturtle7 on Mar 24, 2021 19:05:13 GMT
My confidence that Annie is good and truly back to one body without major negative side effects is growing stronger with each page. I also still don't understand what more information about the solution people want. We got "answers" about the whole shifting process from start to finish, just not details on the how, or the technical processes occurring, which we never really get cause its magic.
Before that point, it was pretty clear that the problem was that Annie had just been split into two equally real people, and the solution was to fuse the Annies back together. There was some concern that she might lose 6 months of experience, and that we as an audience would lose an interesting new character, but that's all. Then that conversation happened, and suddenly neither the problem nor the solution is clear at all. Is she really 2 halves of the same person, or 2 different people, one of whom is from an alternate timeline? Do we need to return her to that timeline? If so, how? What kind of horrible consequences have resulted from her not being there for all this time, and are we supposed to fix that somehow?
Everyone assumed that, instead of a simple, "let's put the Annies back together" plotline, we had jumped into a new plotline because of this big complication. And THEN, Annie just got fused together again, and it wasn't even Loup doing it. AND, this whole "twice the fire" thing seems to imply that they were actually 2 separate, entire, people the whole time, with their own fires that got fused by Zimmy. So, did Zimmy & Annie just permanently f*ck over that other timeline by removing it's Annie from existence forever? Isn't permanently merging two different people with different lives into a single person kind of monstrous, if you think about it? Was the other Annie ever actually from another timeline, or was she just another part of the same Annie the whole time? If she was just another part of the same Annie, why does Annie have twice the fire now?
What especially drives me crazy here is that the only people who are actually able to ask these questions right now are Annie, Kat, and Renard, because nobody else knows about what Salsamel and the interpreter said. But they seem totally unconcerned! And Jones is tantalizing me now, because she's at least asking questions about this whole fusion thing, but she has literally no way to know about this "alternate timeline" business, no matter how many side characters she asks! It's all actually really confusing...
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Post by pyradonis on Mar 24, 2021 19:53:52 GMT
No "Well he's been getting better lately" from Parley. I don't think she's ever even been on the same page as him. Actually, they've interacted at least once, as shown starting here. Ah yes, the time Eglamore was raving on about how dangerous it would be for Annie to go into the Forest and then kept Parley from accompanying her. We got "answers" about the whole shifting process from start to finish, just not details on the how, or the technical processes occurring, which we never really get cause its magic. We got no answers at all, we do not even know what the initial problem was, as mturtle7 pointed out. BTW, regarding "it's magic": Zimmy (seems to have) fused the Annies, and that's what she would answer you about it being magic. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Mar 24, 2021 20:33:19 GMT
Hmm... The more Eglamore shoots off his mouth the more likely I think it is that wasp-eating Idra will realize she was Coyote all along or something like that when Coyote comes back. Everyone assumed that, instead of a simple, "let's put the Annies back together" plotline, we had jumped into a new plotline because of this big complication. And THEN, Annie just got fused together again, and it wasn't even Loup doing it. AND, this whole "twice the fire" thing seems to imply that they were actually 2 separate, entire, people the whole time, with their own fires that got fused by Zimmy. So, did Zimmy & Annie just permanently f*ck over that other timeline by removing it's Annie from existence forever? Isn't permanently merging two different people with different lives into a single person kind of monstrous, if you think about it? Was the other Annie ever actually from another timeline, or was she just another part of the same Annie the whole time? If she was just another part of the same Annie, why does Annie have twice the fire now? Zeta did talk about shifting before and her problem is about control rather than lack of mojo. I think the most reasonable explanation is that Zeta could not unshift Antimonies without an etheric distortion and couldn't create one on demand so the reunification had to wait. Since she's got twice the fire we can infer that two real Antimonies were merged together, which I'll address down below. What especially drives me crazy here is that the only people who are actually able to ask these questions right now are Annie, Kat, and Renard, because nobody else knows about what Salsamel and the interpreter said. But they seem totally unconcerned! And Jones is tantalizing me now, because she's at least asking questions about this whole fusion thing, but she has literally no way to know about this "alternate timeline" business, no matter how many side characters she asks! It's all actually really confusing... The Norns didn't seem concerned about alternate timelines sans Antimonies either. My wild speculation, based mostly on what Skippy was saying, is that they're both real and not real in some important sense. If they get created by powerful beings as needed then maybe it's more correct to view them as a support structure in and only accessible through the ether, required to do whatever that powerful being wanted to accomplish and that they cease to exist when no longer needed (as otherwise there would be many of them by now). "Loup" wanted to create another real Antimony to make the Court stop bothering him and in doin so he created another timeline; as neither of the Antimonies "should" be there perhaps "Loup" made the original less correct by the creation of another real Antimony but the inevitability of Kat's temporal intervention could have on its own invalidated the original Antimony, or both. The notion of real beings fading after their reason for being created fades away might find a parallel in the Shadow people who were made from nothing and became shadows when their creator was no longer interested in them, so if Kat brought Alternate-timeline Kat to meet Courtnie then I suspect Alternate-timeline Kat would start to fade or degrade after Antimony-reunification. How can we know for sure? If we see Antimony's double-firepower fade with time then I think we'll have at least some evidence to support this theory. If Alternate-timeline Kat appears by her own devices after "Loup" becomes aware Antimony is no longer shifted, that would disprove the theory. Sucks to be alternate-timeline people, I guess, but the idea of really-real people who perpetuate themselves without the intervention of a powerful being suggests that yes, there is matter as well as ether in the Gunnerverse therefore everything isn't subjective so... yay? |
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Post by sebastian on Mar 24, 2021 21:26:58 GMT
Some notes: Damn, how tall has Parley grown?! She's always been naturally tall for her age, but could some of her height be due to magic training/runes? Annie's fire laser confirmed outright to be twice as strong, it's not just more confidence or concentration. Wonder what that means for the fire elemental spirit itself. The narrative suspense for "how will Tony react to all this" has begun to build. I am sure someone already mentioned it, but if her fire is now twice as strong then it could mean that she can have a children and not to die like her mother. [edit: Yup, somebody already mentioned it] |
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Post by maxptc on Mar 24, 2021 21:53:18 GMT
My confidence that Annie is good and truly back to one body without major negative side effects is growing stronger with each page. I also still don't understand what more information about the solution people want. We got "answers" about the whole shifting process from start to finish, just not details on the how, or the technical processes occurring, which we never really get cause its magic. Before that point, it was pretty clear that the problem was that Annie had just been split into two equally real people, and the solution was to fuse the Annies back together. There was some concern that she might lose 6 months of experience, and that we as an audience would lose an interesting new character, but that's all. Then that conversation happened, and suddenly neither the problem nor the solution is clear at all. Is she really 2 halves of the same person, or 2 different people, one of whom is from an alternate timeline? Do we need to return her to that timeline? If so, how? What kind of horrible consequences have resulted from her not being there for all this time, and are we supposed to fix that somehow? Everyone assumed that, instead of a simple, "let's put the Annies back together" plotline, we had jumped into a new plotline because of this big complication. And THEN, Annie just got fused together again, and it wasn't even Loup doing it. AND, this whole "twice the fire" thing seems to imply that they were actually 2 separate, entire, people the whole time, with their own fires that got fused by Zimmy. So, did Zimmy & Annie just permanently f*ck over that other timeline by removing it's Annie from existence forever? Isn't permanently merging two different people with different lives into a single person kind of monstrous, if you think about it? Was the other Annie ever actually from another timeline, or was she just another part of the same Annie the whole time? If she was just another part of the same Annie, why does Annie have twice the fire now?
What especially drives me crazy here is that the only people who are actually able to ask these questions right now are Annie, Kat, and Renard, because nobody else knows about what Salsamel and the interpreter said. But they seem totally unconcerned! And Jones is tantalizing me now, because she's at least asking questions about this whole fusion thing, but she has literally no way to know about this "alternate timeline" business, no matter how many side characters she asks! It's all actually really confusing...
I just don't know how that timeline would be any more or less fucked regardless of how this resolved. Like, if the annies didn't fuse were those timelines OK? Were both of them suppose to be sent back? Just one of them? Wouldn't that still leave questions? All thats assuming we understand timelines in this world, which is a big assumution. Normally only one timeline exists at a time according to that guy, so why would it matter anyways? How, from a comic narrative was any of this every going to get explained in a way that answers any of this fully? But all this questioning gets away from the fact we do know what happened. 1 Annie became 2, they fought and learned about themselves, then became 1 again. Like it's not that it's not still a mysterious situation, just that I don't get what answering these questions would do for the story, or how the story would answer them even. This whole shifted plot was an internal struggle shown as a physical concept, trying to rationalize it too much just seems impossible. When no answer will fully tie everything up in a neat package, id agrue its better to leave the details up to the reader. |
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Post by maxptc on Mar 24, 2021 22:04:30 GMT
Actually, they've interacted at least once, as shown starting here. Ah yes, the time Eglamore was raving on about how dangerous it would be for Annie to go into the Forest and then kept Parley from accompanying her. We got "answers" about the whole shifting process from start to finish, just not details on the how, or the technical processes occurring, which we never really get cause its magic. We got no answers at all, we do not even know what the initial problem was, as mturtle7 pointed out. BTW, regarding "it's magic": Zimmy (seems to have) fused the Annies, and that's what she would answer you about it being magic. I mean I think we do have answers to the situation, just not all related information needed to understand the details of exactly what happened. I guess I just don't think the details of how are super important to understanding the story that happened. Unless it is important to future plot points why does it matter if there was a different timeline before? Are we gonna see it and have a story in it? I'm all for alternate realities, but that doesn't seem to be where the story is going. We were shown what happened, the details of it are less important, at least to me. For a smaller example the "how" of how Loup made Jones go into orbit in an impossible way is less important then the fact that he did that. |
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Post by pyradonis on Mar 24, 2021 23:05:12 GMT
Ah yes, the time Eglamore was raving on about how dangerous it would be for Annie to go into the Forest and then kept Parley from accompanying her. We got no answers at all, we do not even know what the initial problem was, as mturtle7 pointed out. BTW, regarding "it's magic": Zimmy (seems to have) fused the Annies, and that's what she would answer you about it being magic. I mean I think we do have answers to the situation, just not all related information needed to understand the details of exactly what happened. I guess I just don't think the details of how are super important to understanding the story that happened. Unless it is important to future plot points why does it matter if there was a different timeline before? Are we gonna see it and have a story in it? I'm all for alternate realities, but that doesn't seem to be where the story is going. We were shown what happened, the details of it are less important, at least to me. For a smaller example the "how" of how Loup made Jones go into orbit in an impossible way is less important then the fact that he did that. Well many people feel the need for some explanation how things happened even in a story with Gods and lots of magic in it. Explanations which are consistent with a fantasy story's logic help in the reader's suspension of disbelief, i.e. plot points that would be unrealistic/impossible in the real world are easier accepted. But when things "just happen" then the story quickly starts to seem completely arbitrary and that is not fun. When a story presents a big problem/obstacle to overcome, readers expect a satisfying way the protagonists do overcome said problem/obstacle. And letting it just be fixed by a minor character of whom we didn't even know they were capable of doing this is all but satisfying. We are not expecting a detailed scientific explanation of how the Annies were made into one, but at least an explanation if Annie was split, or if another Annie was brought over from a different timeline - two very different things - should be in order, don't you think? Furthermore, if the two timelines explanation should be wrong, then I ask, what was the point of it? The comic presented this as a big challenge for the protagonists. But it was not even acknowledged as a mistake in-story. It was not played as a big reveal that in reality both Annies were part of one. It is just ignored. And we do not even know whether this theory was wrong all along or not.
I am not an expert in the theories behind writing and analyzing stories, someone more educated in those subjects could surely better explain what the problem is, but I hope you understand what I mean.
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Post by Runningflame on Mar 25, 2021 0:36:33 GMT
Parley continues to echo the forum's sentiments. Zeta did talk about shifting before... I notice that she said "split" rather than "shifted," though. If she was the one who resolved the situation, I wonder if she knows more about it than you Clippy... |
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Post by todd on Mar 25, 2021 1:57:19 GMT
Again, we don't know for certain that the two Annies really were from different timelines. Clippy (our source for that information) could have been mistaken - or he could have been lying, perhaps to somehow manipulate Kat for some unknown purpose.
I was more concerned that the "two Annies" issue was resolved in an almost "deus ex machina" fashion by Zimmy at the end of a chapter that was focused largely on Zimmy's troubles, with Annie/the Annies doing barely anything to work towards that.
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Post by maxptc on Mar 25, 2021 2:48:53 GMT
I mean I think we do have answers to the situation, just not all related information needed to understand the details of exactly what happened. I guess I just don't think the details of how are super important to understanding the story that happened. Unless it is important to future plot points why does it matter if there was a different timeline before? Are we gonna see it and have a story in it? I'm all for alternate realities, but that doesn't seem to be where the story is going. We were shown what happened, the details of it are less important, at least to me. For a smaller example the "how" of how Loup made Jones go into orbit in an impossible way is less important then the fact that he did that. Well many people feel the need for some explanation how things happened even in a story with Gods and lots of magic in it. Explanations which are consistent with a fantasy story's logic help in the reader's suspension of disbelief, i.e. plot points that would be unrealistic/impossible in the real world are easier accepted. But when things "just happen" then the story quickly starts to seem completely arbitrary and that is not fun. When a story presents a big problem/obstacle to overcome, readers expect a satisfying way the protagonists do overcome said problem/obstacle. And letting it just be fixed by a minor character of whom we didn't even know they were capable of doing this is all but satisfying. We are not expecting a detailed scientific explanation of how the Annies were made into one, but at least an explanation if Annie was split, or if another Annie was brought over from a different timeline - two very different things - should be in order, don't you think?
Furthermore, if the two timelines explanation should be wrong, then I ask, what was the point of it? The comic presented this as a big challenge for the protagonists. But it was not even acknowledged as a mistake in-story. It was not played as a big reveal that in reality both Annies were part of one. It is just ignored. And we do not even know whether this theory was wrong all along or not.
I am not an expert in the theories behind writing and analyzing stories, someone more educated in those subjects could surely better explain what the problem is, but I hope you understand what I mean.
I mean, I think I get what your saying, I just don't think I agree that it's needed for the narrative to have logic, and don't think it matters much to the story. We've been left with an open ended explanation, but the popular theories are that Loup: Made the two Annie by pulling either or both from alternative realities/timelines, and now that timeline/reality is screwed or They are a split of the real Annie, who cease to exist and two new versions of that Annie exsisted, Regardless both didn't belong, and are now one again. So either way, a powerful move. But is it really that much more powerful then Zimmy feats? She literally punched Tony from half a world away, she creates/rewrites realities when she gets upset, can go into people's minds and other stuff. Not saying she is as powerful as Loup, but calling her a minor character and thinking she wasn't capable of this, based solely on what we've seen in the story so far, just doesn't track with me. I personally don't feel like Zimz is a minor character at all, she is a literal magic generator and likely a big part of the stories climax. But that's just theory, so who knows. Even if she is a minor character, before this event she has done things that make her easily one of the top 5 most powerful characters in the whole story, one could argue only behind Loup and Coyote. She can bend reality, so I don't see how it is any less logical as Loup doing it in the first place, regardless of how or what he did. I don't really see how the timeline thing was presented as a big challenge, it didn't even get presented as a fact imo, that whole chapter and the whole shifted story leaves alot open ended, intentionally i think. Either way, the details of how don't effect that story much, because it ends up being the same thing, a powerful character did a thing, which made two main characters. Story happend, then another powerful character fused them. If you don't buy into Zimmy being able to do this, I dunno what to say, but I think it fits just fine with the rest of the story and what Zims has done previously. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Mar 25, 2021 2:54:29 GMT
Zeta did talk about shifting before... I notice that she said "split" rather than "shifted," though. If she was the one who resolved the situation, I wonder if she knows more about it than you Clippy... Since you brought it up, what Zeta said was pretty complicated. She did say "split" and not "shifted" and that's important because "split" implies division while "shifted" does not. On the next page she says that was what happened to unlucky people who lived where she did. She also said that what happened to them "depends," whatever that means, presumably meaning that some she was willing and able to help, others she couldn't help, and possibly that in some cases she wasn't willing to help. If there are any people in the last category she may have split them on purpose but we can't be sure she ever did so. "Loup" we know made another real Antimony on purpose using Coyote's power. "Loup" did not want to harm Antimony; presumably Zeta wouldn't want to harm an Antimony but can harm accidentally using her powers. Remember, ol' Zimmy is the originator of the "it's only as real as you let it be" adage; Coyote is the one who said, "You experienced it, didn't you?" after which Antimony's fingerprint could be found on the moon. Whatever anyone wants to say about Clippy's character or motives, he's already gotten what he was there for by the time they ask about shifting; that should reduce his motivation to be deceptive, though it is possible that he might lie out of malice or for an unknown reason, or even a generic not-event-specific reason. Clippy might possibly be mistaken but he is speaking as if he has some knowledge of what he's talking about. Zeta does not have the same knowledge base as Anja, Coyote, Skippy and the Norns so it's not surprising that she doesn't use the same terms or look at things the same way. Zeta's said something that we can use to speculate that maybe Antimony was duplicated without an alternate timeline coming into existence; all those other people say things that seem to indicate that an alternate timeline was involved. Can they all be correct? Possibly in some sense, as reality in the Gunneverse is seemingly on a sliding scale, but the fire being doubled does suggest there was a second real Antimony and therefore a correlated timeline or dimension that supported her. Whatever she did to unify Antimonies, it was probably the same thing that Zeta did when she wanted to unsplit people she split. The question then is, "is what Zeta did the same thing that Loup or Coyote would have done to solve the problem of multiple Antimonies?"* to which I am forced to say possibly not, because it seems possible that Zeta did not split them the same way that "Loup" made another Antimony. Could Coyote (or Loup with Coyote's powers) have solved the problem* without causing any alternate timeline to cease to be, or failing that to conclude the timeline in a non-destructive way? Likely yes, if they wanted to, as easily as they could create a second real Antimony. Now, we can view "real" as just meaning that one can have all of the same experiences with the second Antimony as the first but it appears that it also means consequences (as per the fingerprint on the moon) that are also real, therefore alternate timeline(s) that are at least as real as "can have all the same experiences with." And that, fellow forum-goers, regrettably means that when she united the Antimonies Zeta may have doomed an alternate timeline** that was more than nominally real, but hopefully not really-real. You can choose to believe that only means the alternate timeline is no longer accessible*** and still exists in the ether some abstract sense, much like the pet you once had as a child now exists at an unnamed farm somewhere in the countryside, but I'm wildly speculating that it will no longer exist in any meaningful sense to the "real" Gunnerverse**** at some point in the future if it hasn't already. TL;DR Ephemeral doesn't mean less real, gentle forum-goers; in fact it confirms that the thing is/was real. [edit] To put it another way, it's like stamping a gingerbread person shape out of rolled cookie dough. The dough is what could be but isn't (the ether, since true ex nihilo creation isn't possible even for Coyote) and the cookie (a real Antimony) pops out into reality, but what's left is the shape in the dough. That's the alternate timeline. It's both a hole and the resulting effect of the pressure on the surrounding dough (since the ether is everything that could be but isn't). Putting the stamped-out cookie back into the hole it came from heals the dough, so to speak, but can't be done if you've already baked the cookie and used it to make an ice-cream sandwich with a pre-existing cookie and some mint ice-cream. Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to go eat something from the freezer. [/edit] *which I'm not sure is a problem in the first place, let alone a problem that could be "solved" losslessly **doomed because Loup now has no reason to care about it even indirectly, see previous post ***even to the celestial bureaucracy ****unless needed in the future in which case it may be impossible to distinguish from a duplicate itself |
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Post by maxptc on Mar 25, 2021 3:41:49 GMT
Again, we don't know for certain that the two Annies really were from different timelines. Clippy (our source for that information) could have been mistaken - or he could have been lying, perhaps to somehow manipulate Kat for some unknown purpose. I was more concerned that the "two Annies" issue was resolved in an almost "deus ex machina" fashion by Zimmy at the end of a chapter that was focused largely on Zimmy's troubles, with Annie/the Annies doing barely anything to work towards that. I mean, Annie hasn't been working to resolve it anyways, so why would it be something she worked to resolve. Her plan seemed to be "live with it until Loup fixes it" which would also be a god from the machine. We were always presented with the shift as a "God level character did this, God level character has to fix it." It just happened to be a different powerful character then the one we were being lead to think it was. |
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Post by youwiththeface on Mar 25, 2021 4:03:02 GMT
Yeah, this young woman certainly can't make up her own mind about how she feels about how her close friend's dad treats said friend. She must think that because her male teacher does. Seriously, dude? I'll quote Parley herself on this one: "The way Eglamore talks about him[...]I don't know the guy really." There's your answer. And it's absolutely the whole answer ...if you've completely forgotten about chapter 52. Where it was made clear that all Annie's classmates (who were not being taught by Eglamore) disliked her dad (to the point of sending her a card with their condolences) and Parley did not like what she saw when she met with Annie in her new room. So yeah. Like other posters have said, maybe give Parley a little more credit than that? |
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Post by george on Mar 25, 2021 4:21:41 GMT
fairly convinced this is because court annie had developed discipline and control over her fire elemental side although in the process repressed it.
forest annie is more in tune with herself and her firey side.
put the two together and she has the focus and tools to beam fire with the connection to put some extra juice in the death ray
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Post by maxptc on Mar 25, 2021 4:27:28 GMT
fairly convinced this is because court annie had developed discipline and control over her fire elemental side although in the process repressed it. forest annie is more in tune with herself and her firey side. put the two together and she has the focus and tools to beam fire with the connection to put some extra juice in the death ray I don't know if this is right, but I like it a lot. It being a metaphor for the best parts of both Annies is cool as heck. |
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Post by Gotolei on Mar 25, 2021 5:40:26 GMT
fairly convinced this is because court annie had developed discipline and control over her fire elemental side although in the process repressed it. forest annie is more in tune with herself and her firey side. put the two together and she has the focus and tools to beam fire with the connection to put some extra juice in the death ray This is part of what I was thinking as well. Whenever we'd see the both of them in the ether, starting from the day forest Annie first returned to a couple chapters ago where court Annie was disguising herself to try to fool Tony ( and times in between), forest Annie's hair has been shown as in good condition and generally with more length than court Annie's, which would usually be shown with holes ripped in it and/or little fragments coming off of it. Given that throughout the comic, hair has often been basically a metaphor for personal health, and how Annie's hair has so prominent in ether time for basically as long as I can remember, I've basically taken this to mean that forest Annie's fire part was probably better off over that period of time than court Annie's was (probably the six months in the forest in Loup's presence that did that?). But on the other hand, court Annie learned a lot more of how to control it, what with the dragonball lasers and all, while forest Annie was left employing it in much more brute-force ways (see also: wet wood). The greater power(?) of the one, combined with the greater control of the other, I wonder if this combined Annie might be more than the immediate sum of her parts. |
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Post by aline on Mar 25, 2021 7:29:48 GMT
So, sorry, but yes, her view is entirely through Eglamores lens. She is no doubt influenced by Eglamore's view of Tony, but she's also Annie's friend and saw firsthand the way Annie was treated. I don't want to make the 1000th list about everything Tony did wrong but it was not a good look. Her view isn't *entirely* through Eglamore's lens. It would be more accurate to say what he told her confirmed her already existing feelings about the dude. She cites "the way Eglamore talk about him [...]" and "hearing how he treats Annie pisses me off". Those are two separate reasons for why she doesn't like Tony. |
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Post by guntherkrieg on Mar 25, 2021 9:54:03 GMT
Christ, finally someone other than Kat says something critical about the Antimony/Mr. Carver abusive relationship. It's never the older ones though, is it? Apart from Eglamore, who's almost dismissed as some angry spurned lover (which he is) when he's also right to be aghast at Carver's behaviour.
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Post by aline on Mar 25, 2021 10:35:35 GMT
Christ, finally someone other than Kat says something critical about the Antimony/Mr. Carver abusive relationship. It's never the older ones though, is it? Apart from Eglamore, who's almost dismissed as some angry spurned lover (which he is) when he's also right to be aghast at Carver's behaviour. I disagree. Kat's parents expressed criticism on several occasions, privately, to Annie, and to Tony. And Kat's dad is Tony's best friend. We've also seen Tony backpedal on everything so he must have got the message. Most of what Tony did was framed as wrong by the comic from the start. Renard was calling out Tony long before he even came back. Also a spurned lover and he was wrong about some things and not about others. Ysengrin was dismissive, but nobody expected that guy to understand the difference between a toxic relationship and a healthy one. To him Tony was never even a relevant value and all he wanted was for Annie to grow, if necessary in spite of him. Jones didn't say anything, I doubt she sees herself as someone who knows how father-daughter relationships should work, but who knows. Maybe she does have thoughts and we will end up hearing them. What other adults are there even in this comic? Apart from the evil Court officials who were hoping to use Tony to control Annie in the first place? |
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Post by pyradonis on Mar 25, 2021 10:45:53 GMT
Well many people feel the need for some explanation how things happened even in a story with Gods and lots of magic in it. Explanations which are consistent with a fantasy story's logic help in the reader's suspension of disbelief, i.e. plot points that would be unrealistic/impossible in the real world are easier accepted. But when things "just happen" then the story quickly starts to seem completely arbitrary and that is not fun. When a story presents a big problem/obstacle to overcome, readers expect a satisfying way the protagonists do overcome said problem/obstacle. And letting it just be fixed by a minor character of whom we didn't even know they were capable of doing this is all but satisfying. We are not expecting a detailed scientific explanation of how the Annies were made into one, but at least an explanation if Annie was split, or if another Annie was brought over from a different timeline - two very different things - should be in order, don't you think?
Furthermore, if the two timelines explanation should be wrong, then I ask, what was the point of it? The comic presented this as a big challenge for the protagonists. But it was not even acknowledged as a mistake in-story. It was not played as a big reveal that in reality both Annies were part of one. It is just ignored. And we do not even know whether this theory was wrong all along or not.
I am not an expert in the theories behind writing and analyzing stories, someone more educated in those subjects could surely better explain what the problem is, but I hope you understand what I mean.
I mean, I think I get what your saying, I just don't think I agree that it's needed for the narrative to have logic, and don't think it matters much to the story. We've been left with an open ended explanation, but the popular theories are that Loup: Made the two Annie by pulling either or both from alternative realities/timelines, and now that timeline/reality is screwed or They are a split of the real Annie, who cease to exist and two new versions of that Annie exsisted, Regardless both didn't belong, and are now one again. If the first theory is true, then the Annies were never one before, and shouldn't be one now. If it is true, then two separate personalities were destroyed to create a new one, and there is one timeline without an Annie. Those are grave ramifications, so it should be cleared up in-story. To make a comparison: If one character disappears from the story and it's equally possible that either one of the protagonists killed them, or that they went to Hollywood to become a movie star, shouldn't that question be cleared up in-story? I meant "minor character" in the sense that she has only appeared in 8 out of 79 chapters so far. In my own language I would have used a term that sounds less "unimportant", but this seems to be the only translation... I also didn't mean Zimmy should not be able to do what she did, but pulling off such a supernatural feat in such a controlled way is new for her. We have seen her alter reality before, but never voluntarily, it was always the inside of her head getting out of control. She punched Tony in the face across the world, yes. (Although one could argue that he was reaching into Annie's soul at that moment, so was practically not far away, etherically speaking.) And what happened then? Her powers again got out of control and reality was starting to break. This fit everything we knew about Zimmy. Now she just casually fuses the Annies as an afterthought in a chapter which was about something else. Has Zimmy learned to control her powers? We don't know. So, sorry, but yes, her view is entirely through Eglamores lens. She is no doubt influenced by Eglamore's view of Tony, but she's also Annie's friend and saw firsthand the way Annie was treated. I don't want to make the 1000th list about everything Tony did wrong but it was not a good look. Her view isn't *entirely* through Eglamore's lens. It would be more accurate to say what he told her confirmed her already existing feelings about the dude. She cites "the way Eglamore talk about him [...]" and "hearing how he treats Annie pisses me off". Those are two separate reasons for why she doesn't like Tony. Well, it would be interesting who the other person(s) is/are who tell her about Tony. As far as I know, the only one of Parley's social circle who regularly interacts with Tony is Kat, who has become his friend (and seemingly never criticized him again, which is its own uncomfortable fact). |
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Post by aline on Mar 25, 2021 11:57:05 GMT
Well, it would be interesting who the other person(s) is/are who tell her about Tony. As far as I know, the only one of Parley's social circle who regularly interacts with Tony is Kat, who has become his friend (and seemingly never criticized him again, which is its own uncomfortable fact). It's a small, closed community. Surely there are many people who can see Tony being cold and distant around his daughter, including Parley herself. She saw him send Annie off to a meeting with dangerous demon-god without a hug or any of the things you would expect from a parent in a situation like this. But even Kat. You think if Parley asked how it's going with Annie and her dad, Kat would answer "great, everything's fine"? Just because she's warmed up to Tony doesn't mean she can't be critical of him when it comes to his relationship with Annie. She's still sad for her friend about how her dad behaves around her (like at the bottom of this page: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1915 when she tries and fail to make him closer to his own daughter and he issues criticism instead). Not long ago Annie was still running to her room to tell her other self "He made a joke! !!!". Kat isn't blind. She no longer thinks of Tony as a monster with evil plans, but... I'm sure she wishes he treated Annie better. |
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Post by maxptc on Mar 25, 2021 13:47:51 GMT
I mean, I think I get what your saying, I just don't think I agree that it's needed for the narrative to have logic, and don't think it matters much to the story. We've been left with an open ended explanation, but the popular theories are that Loup: Made the two Annie by pulling either or both from alternative realities/timelines, and now that timeline/reality is screwed or They are a split of the real Annie, who cease to exist and two new versions of that Annie exsisted, Regardless both didn't belong, and are now one again. If the first theory is true, then the Annies were never one before, and shouldn't be one now. If it is true, then two separate personalities were destroyed to create a new one, and there is one timeline without an Annie. Those are grave ramifications, so it should be cleared up in-story. To make a comparison: If one character disappears from the story and it's equally possible that either one of the protagonists killed them, or that they went to Hollywood to become a movie star, shouldn't that question be cleared up in-story? I meant "minor character" in the sense that she has only appeared in 8 out of 79 chapters so far. In my own language I would have used a term that sounds less "unimportant", but this seems to be the only translation... I also didn't mean Zimmy should not be able to do what she did, but pulling off such a supernatural feat in such a controlled way is new for her. We have seen her alter reality before, but never voluntarily, it was always the inside of her head getting out of control. She punched Tony in the face across the world, yes. (Although one could argue that he was reaching into Annie's soul at that moment, so was practically not far away, etherically speaking.) And what happened then? Her powers again got out of control and reality was starting to break. This fit everything we knew about Zimmy. Now she just casually fuses the Annies as an afterthought in a chapter which was about something else. Has Zimmy learned to control her powers? We don't know. She is no doubt influenced by Eglamore's view of Tony, but she's also Annie's friend and saw firsthand the way Annie was treated. I don't want to make the 1000th list about everything Tony did wrong but it was not a good look. Her view isn't *entirely* through Eglamore's lens. It would be more accurate to say what he told her confirmed her already existing feelings about the dude. She cites "the way Eglamore talk about him [...]" and "hearing how he treats Annie pisses me off". Those are two separate reasons for why she doesn't like Tony. Well, it would be interesting who the other person(s) is/are who tell her about Tony. As far as I know, the only one of Parley's social circle who regularly interacts with Tony is Kat, who has become his friend (and seemingly never criticized him again, which is its own uncomfortable fact). If the first theory is true, we still don't know enough about timelines to make those assumptions. Clippy said there is only suppose to be one timeline. If everything he said is true and meant to be understood the way you think it is, then sure, there is now a timline that has no Annie. But even then, that's not the issue with that timeline. That timeline existing is the issue. But good news, the character didn't dissappear from the story with no idea/explanation of what happened to her, we are seeing what happened to her. They are both in one body now. Second timeline or split, the conclusion is the same, she ended up back as one person with both personalities/individuals represented. The ramifications of it being time-travel/altreality-based shenanigans or not are minimal, since at worst a version of the world that we never got to see and shouldn't exsist in the first place now doesn't exist(may have stopped existing right after Annie left for all we know), but we get to keep the Annie from there instead of her ceasing to be. Even if all those other people are gone, they aren't gone to either Annie both of whom now live in this timeline where all those people do still exist. Seems like answers would be more philosophy explanation rather then storyline significance. I dunno what to say as far as the Zimmy stuff, what happened tracked in my mind. Zimmy has always seemed to have some control to me, killing spriders and seeing dreams, and before this chapter she even said she has seen and dealt with this stuff before. So again, if the Zimmy being able to do this doesn't track with you that's okay, but I personally feel that's a you thing and that the comic adequately set it up, again imo. Edit: only suppose to be one timeline at a time, not ever. Kinda implied I missed the whole norm thing. |
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Post by pyradonis on Mar 25, 2021 14:10:54 GMT
Well, it would be interesting who the other person(s) is/are who tell her about Tony. As far as I know, the only one of Parley's social circle who regularly interacts with Tony is Kat, who has become his friend (and seemingly never criticized him again, which is its own uncomfortable fact). It's a small, closed community. Surely there are many people who can see Tony being cold and distant around his daughter, including Parley herself. She saw him send Annie off to a meeting with dangerous demon-god without a hug or any of the things you would expect from a parent in a situation like this. But even Kat. You think if Parley asked how it's going with Annie and her dad, Kat would answer "great, everything's fine"? Just because she's warmed up to Tony doesn't mean she can't be critical of him when it comes to his relationship with Annie. She's still sad for her friend about how her dad behaves around her (like at the bottom of this page: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1915 when she tries and fail to make him closer to his own daughter and he issues criticism instead). Not long ago Annie was still running to her room to tell her other self "He made a joke! !!!". Kat isn't blind. She no longer thinks of Tony as a monster with evil plans, but... I'm sure she wishes he treated Annie better. ...Well, I totally forgot that chapter (the one where they are working together in the lab).
About the other time, though, Parley had long bipped away before Annie and Jones separated from Tony and Andrew. Andrew might have told her some more (which might answer my own earlier question), but we were not shown. On this page, the four of them are leaving together and on the next, Jones and Annie are alone. Parley was barely present to see any interaction between Tony and Annie. He was distant in those few minutes, yes, but also showed a lot of trust in his daughter (which at that moment obviously meant a lot for Annie). Of course we cannot know how Parley would interpret the situation. She cannot read all other pages of the comic before, like we do...
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Post by Gemminie on Mar 25, 2021 17:15:20 GMT
Right now I'm thinking (I could be wrong) that the answer is no. I'm thinking this because of the narrative function of Kat's asking that question. What I mean by that: First Kat asks that question, in chapter 71, during the weird time-frozen interlude with the Arbiter and his interpreter. I've presented my argument before that both the Arbiter and Kat make several unwarranted assumptions about what's going on with the two Annies and misinterpretations of what one another says. This leads Kat to ask that question. She's made the assumption that Annie's duplication happened because of an alternate timeline. So has the Arbiter. But whether or not it's true, Kat's thinking along those lines. And then, at the end of the chapter, Kat gives Annie a serious side-eye. I submit that Kat has just started thinking about this thing that she couldn't then stop thinking about. And shortly after she started thinking about it, this happened. The conversation with new-Arthur obviously couldn't have happened before the end of chapter 71, because Arthur wasn't in his new body until then. Kat's thinking about an alternate timeline out there where Annie didn't come back from the Forest, then she's thinking about how neither Annie belongs here (and perhaps how one Annie's being from another timeline doesn't explain that), and then after that, Arthur effectively tells her that her robot bird must have somehow traveled in time and saved Annie back in Year 7 of school. Kat was thinking about a timeline, which may or may not exist, in which Annie didn't come back from the Forest. But now she's thinking about an alternate timeline that she knows exists, one where Annie died after being pushed off the bridge. One in which the Kat of that timeline broke time to save Annie, but didn't save her in every timeline, because she's built a Tic-Toc but hasn't yet sent it back in time and has no idea how to do that, but she knows that some version of Annie will die if she doesn't. But my point is that narratively, Kat's question about the alternate timeline in which Annie never returned from the Forest is not a lead-in to why there are two Annies. The narrative is a bit fragmented with flashbacks, but once we straighten it out, Kat's got a pretty straightforward train of thought that leads to her time travel concerns and saving Annie from the bridge fall. Narratively, in my opinion anyway, Kat's question starts that train of thought. And it leads her (and the rest of the volume) completely away from the separate question of why there are two Annies, a question that isn't answered in that volume at all. I hope it's answered in this one. |
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Post by maxptc on Mar 26, 2021 0:16:09 GMT
So Annie being split into two may have nothing to do with her being in the wrong timeline. In fact, the norms saying "the two of you" then correcting themselves "or in this case the three of you" does indicate they aren't always split in whichever timeline is current reality. The also say Kat is younger then typical. Could this be because Kat typically learns that Annie isn't in the right timline way later in life because there aren't two of them at any point?
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Post by autumnn on Apr 8, 2021 2:08:01 GMT
This whole shifted plot was an internal struggle shown as a physical concept, trying to rationalize it too much just seems impossible. When no answer will fully tie everything up in a neat package, id agrue its better to leave the details up to the reader. If this was just meant to be an internal conflict represented in physical form, it was completely unnecessary to introduce the plot point about there being three Annies. For that to be introduced and left unaddressed it would be, put flatly, bad writing. We can't say for sure whether it's bad writing yet, because the comic is not over yet and it could yet be addressed, but you can't blame people for getting anxious about it when the more we see the less likely it looks like it is going to be addressed. It's been two and a half years; an entire book has come and gone and we're now being told that Kat, the character who knows about the three Annies, thinks everything is just fine now. As it is, the main character that readers have been following for a decade appears to be dead (for all we know) and replaced with a Loup-like fusion of two other girls from other timelines, which is deeply unsettling. "Let the reader imagine their own resolution to that" is a total cop-out. (Yes, late response, I'm just now catching up and found this particular comment irksome enough to reply to because it handwaves away all responsibility for the author to write a story where the major twists they throw in actually have meaning.) |
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Post by maxptc on Apr 8, 2021 5:12:23 GMT
This whole shifted plot was an internal struggle shown as a physical concept, trying to rationalize it too much just seems impossible. When no answer will fully tie everything up in a neat package, id agrue its better to leave the details up to the reader. If this was just meant to be an internal conflict represented in physical form, it was completely unnecessary to introduce the plot point about there being three Annies. For that to be introduced and left unaddressed it would be, put flatly, bad writing. We can't say for sure whether it's bad writing yet, because the comic is not over yet and it could yet be addressed, but you can't blame people for getting anxious about it when the more we see the less likely it looks like it is going to be addressed. It's been two and a half years; an entire book has come and gone and we're now being told that Kat, the character who knows about the three Annies, thinks everything is just fine now. As it is, the main character that readers have been following for a decade appears to be dead (for all we know) and replaced with a Loup-like fusion of two other girls from other timelines, which is deeply unsettling. "Let the reader imagine their own resolution to that" is a total cop-out. (Yes, late response, I'm just now catching up and found this particular comment irksome enough to reply to because it handwaves away all responsibility for the author to write a story where the major twists they throw in actually have meaning.) I mean, I'm not trying to say Tom shouldn't tell us what's up eventually, just that I think the multiple timeline Annies thing isn't the only answer, and the details of how they merged back together without it being deaths aren't that significant, which is my whole thing. I get it, this is character deaths to alot of people, maybe even Tom, I just don't see it that way. I think Annie was always just Annie split in two, a trick of Loups. Even if I'm wrong, I still don't think either verison is dead, they are at worst pulling of a more functional Firestorm situation, who is a totally okay character. |
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Post by pyradonis on Apr 8, 2021 11:50:43 GMT
This whole shifted plot was an internal struggle shown as a physical concept, trying to rationalize it too much just seems impossible. When no answer will fully tie everything up in a neat package, id agrue its better to leave the details up to the reader. If this was just meant to be an internal conflict represented in physical form, it was completely unnecessary to introduce the plot point about there being three Annies. For that to be introduced and left unaddressed it would be, put flatly, bad writing. We can't say for sure whether it's bad writing yet, because the comic is not over yet and it could yet be addressed, but you can't blame people for getting anxious about it when the more we see the less likely it looks like it is going to be addressed. It's been two and a half years; an entire book has come and gone and we're now being told that Kat, the character who knows about the three Annies, thinks everything is just fine now. As it is, the main character that readers have been following for a decade appears to be dead (for all we know) and replaced with a Loup-like fusion of two other girls from other timelines, which is deeply unsettling. "Let the reader imagine their own resolution to that" is a total cop-out. (Yes, late response, I'm just now catching up and found this particular comment irksome enough to reply to because it handwaves away all responsibility for the author to write a story where the major twists they throw in actually have meaning.) The possibility of there being three Annies was never brought up in the comic. It was pure forum speculation which took up a life on its own. |
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