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Post by bedinsis on Mar 15, 2021 20:23:35 GMT
Jones' facial expression never changes, but I cannot help thinking that her role in this scene will be one of a party pooper.
I suspect there will be an exchange where Antimony explains what happened to merge her selves with Kat present but already knowing the details, before Jones interrupts to bring up the subject of this chapter. Which is most likely Saslamel et al who are out for Kat, for some reason.
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Post by mturtle7 on Mar 15, 2021 22:28:15 GMT
Reminder that Kat has chilled out a lot ever since her meeting with the Norns. That's probably a big part of why she seems so fine here, despite the big change that just happened.
Also, this might sound kinda obvious, but I think some significant amount of time HAS passed in between these chapters. I know most of us (including me!) were really expecting things to pick up right where we left off so we could see Kat & Tony's immediate reactions to the merger...but obviously, this is not the case. Kat probably freaked out a little when Annie first came to her like this, and was all like "How?" and then the answer was "because Zimmy" and she was like "Welp ok I guess we're here now"...and now they're here, Kat;s accepted it, they're continuing on more or less as normal. Not really THAT crazy, I GUESS, although it's certainly...annoying.
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Post by speedwell on Mar 16, 2021 0:23:11 GMT
She feels feelings. I think she doesn't know what they are, though, or actively represses them, or has felt them so often through billions of years that they don't really register to her consciously anymore. Or else it amuses her to play "stone face" as much as it amuses me to watch her blatantly lie and say she doesn't have emotions. Sure the language of having emotions has only been around for an eyeblink compared to her. Maybe she thinks of her emotions as something else entirely. This is just so brilliant. You're right; if everything Jones has told us about herself is true, she's existed for billions of years during which she had no language to express whatever emotions she feels, and for a few tens of thousands of years during which there were humans using language to talk about their emotions. Barely any time at all, really. To add my suppositions to this, I think Jones, not being human, probably feels emotions that are unique to her, as she's unique. She may not feel human emotions, but perhaps she feels types of emotions that humans can't feel and thus have no words for. Well, I see it like this. I'm in my mid-50s. If while I had breakfast tomorrow morning a group of robots sat down with me and said, "let's talk about earlier when you executed subroutines XB-285 and 45HGS72KL...", I would probably tell them, "I don't have subroutines, at least not in the same sense you do." The robots might even be more right than I suspect, in that I actually might have functionality that maps precisely onto a set of AI subroutines, but, like Jones, I do not always draw the correct conclusions from my experiences... I might be less correct than the AI even though I was born 50+ years ago and the AI was unboxed last week. I might even be annoyed at the suggestion, in which case one AI might raise its elegant metal eyebrow and say to the next one, "take it easy, she's exhibiting 3181697KH".  |
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Post by maxptc on Mar 16, 2021 0:24:55 GMT
Except that the comic's stance so far was that this was explicitly NOT the case; as far as we knew, Annie was NOT split. Yes, it could be that all this time both the Arbiter AND Brinnie were wrong about the Annies being from two different timelines and all that implied. But then I have to ask, where was the point? If they both happened to be wrong, it was not treated as a reveal, it has no consequences, there were just several panels wasted on explaining confusing time travel shenanigans which never happened. Seriously, what's the point?
I mean, I don't agree. I don't feel like that is what was said/implied by the Arbiter, at the very least not for certain. Rather the way he talked after realizing they aren't sisters but shifted, he almost made it seem like he thought of them as one person, "miss Antimony" "your" being my prime examples. "You've been shifted out of your timeline and brought here" isn't a full explanation and doesn't imply two individuals, since we don't know how or what timelines or shifting truly means in the gunnerverse, nor how those systems really work. So I don't think they are lying or wrong, but maybe not fully informed and basing what they said off of a best guess. That could mean everything they said is right but misunderstood. But more then anything I do feel like both magic groups were saying things that leave a lot up to interpretation. |
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Post by speedwell on Mar 16, 2021 0:27:48 GMT
The answer to Annie's apparent split lies, I am sure, in alchemical theory and some aspect of how it views the combination and recombination of elements, but I am too tired at the moment to reread Paracelsus looking for what moment exactly in the transmutation of lead into gold the substance appears to split into two to the untrained eye. Off to bed with my kitten. |
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Post by maxptc on Mar 16, 2021 0:30:05 GMT
This is a good version of what I'm trying to say. |
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Post by Gemminie on Mar 16, 2021 2:24:49 GMT
This is a good version of what I'm trying to say. ! |
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Post by hp on Mar 16, 2021 4:32:32 GMT
are we all in agreement that Jones is a robot Kat made and which for whatever reason got sent into the past by the Nornes?
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Post by blazingstar on Mar 16, 2021 4:48:05 GMT
I am highly amused by how Jones' facial expression has never, ever changed, and yet right now everyone is projecting what they think she's feeling, the purpose of her appearance, and what she's about to say by panel composition alone.
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Post by maxptc on Mar 16, 2021 4:57:36 GMT
This is a good version of what I'm trying to say. ! I'd quoted the whole big post, but it looked wonky cause the formating was to much for me so I did ! instead. |
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Post by blazingstar on Mar 16, 2021 5:09:30 GMT
are we all in agreement that Jones is a robot Kat made and which for whatever reason got sent into the past by the Nornes? No. We know for a fact that Jones is not a robot. However, she could be some kind of golem, and yes, she could have been sent to the past either by the Norns or by Kat with the Nors' fountain. |
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Post by hp on Mar 16, 2021 5:41:16 GMT
are we all in agreement that Jones is a robot Kat made and which for whatever reason got sent into the past by the Nornes? No. We know for a fact that Jones is not a robot. However, she could be some kind of golem, and yes, she could have been sent to the past either by the Norns or by Kat with the Nors' fountain. Not a robot like the common robots, but an artificial being. Kat and Juliette are already making bodies and brains that make robots jump the threshold into being considered living beings (as stated by the arbiter's interpreter). Kat was also willing a body into existence when that cruise ship gave her temporary reality warping powers through Zimmy. Since Jones seems like an artificial being who was present at the beginning of the Earth, and Kat has already been shown creating advanced artificial beings and sending things into the past... |
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Post by alevice on Mar 16, 2021 7:01:16 GMT
Kat: annie, what happened?
Annie: i understand
Kat: brilliant
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Post by speedwell on Mar 16, 2021 7:11:34 GMT
No. We know for a fact that Jones is not a robot. However, she could be some kind of golem, and yes, she could have been sent to the past either by the Norns or by Kat with the Nors' fountain. Not a robot like the common robots, but an artificial being. Kat and Juliette are already making bodies and brains that make robots jump the threshold into being considered living beings (as stated by the arbiter's interpreter). Kat was also willing a body into existence when that cruise ship gave her temporary reality warping powers through Zimmy. Since Jones seems like an artificial being who was present at the beginning of the Earth, and Kat has already been shown creating advanced artificial beings and sending things into the past... No. I believe and have always believed that Jones is entirely natural, not even supernatural. It never entered my head that she could be a technological product (whether conventional or etheric). If she is a construct of human will, she is more than likely a primeval version of the earth mother or element of earth rather than a modern construct. People who identify her with the Golem are on the right track, but a golem is literally a construct of clay endowed with life by someone who sculpted the figure, and I think there was likely no single hand in her formation. |
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Post by speedwell on Mar 16, 2021 7:12:34 GMT
I am highly amused by how Jones' facial expression has never, ever changed, and yet right now everyone is projecting what they think she's feeling, the purpose of her appearance, and what she's about to say by panel composition alone. Yes, it has changed. For one thing, her eyes are differently shaped and literally pointed in slightly different directions in that shot (it gives her the slight impression of a raised eyebrow even though her eyebrows are not raised). Her mouth is drawn so that it looks a tiny bit pulled to one side. When I make that expression it is when I'm experiencing a reaction of mild emotional displeasure. Jones's displeasure is a bit more intimidating than a human's would be, given that her emotional reactions are so measured. |
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Post by blahzor on Mar 16, 2021 12:28:21 GMT
are we all in agreement that Jones is a robot Kat made and which for whatever reason got sent into the past by the Nornes? the final form she made so well that even she could not damage it. so she sent it back in time to give her a way to stop Jones from smiling again |
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Post by fia on Mar 16, 2021 13:20:57 GMT
You know Jones showing up is either something none of us can really predict (Cages! Shadowy shadow men stuff! Kidnappings! Zimmy! Randy Disaster!), ooorrrrrr she's there because she's picking Annie up to finally go deliver the lake water to Loup. You know, that giant plot point we've been avoiding for 4 chapters and... <checks notes> 11 months of storytelling. Maybe they've already killed Loup or are imminently going to or Annie's not invited after all. I think Annie is invited, albeit in a ... restricted way. And Jones is there to deliver the news. That's my guess. EDIT to add: I think it's been about a month since the event with the Norns, because Kat then cut her hair, and now it is evidently 1/2 inch longer than before, more or less. So the Court's been up to some shenanigans in the background for sure. |
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Post by Gemminie on Mar 16, 2021 15:42:02 GMT
You know Jones showing up is either something none of us can really predict (Cages! Shadowy shadow men stuff! Kidnappings! Zimmy! Randy Disaster!), ooorrrrrr she's there because she's picking Annie up to finally go deliver the lake water to Loup. You know, that giant plot point we've been avoiding for 4 chapters and... <checks notes> 11 months of storytelling. Maybe they've already killed Loup or are imminently going to or Annie's not invited after all. I think Annie is invited, albeit in a ... restricted way. And Jones is there to deliver the news. That's my guess. EDIT to add: I think it's been about a month since the event with the Norns, because Kat then cut her hair, and now it is evidently 1/2 inch longer than before, more or less. So the Court's been up to some shenanigans in the background for sure. Just thinking logically about why Jones might be there ... I'm a lister ... - Jones is there by chance on the way to somewhere else (very unlikely)
- Jones is there to talk to Annie
- Jones is there to talk to Kat
- Jones is there to talk to Renard
Jones typically doesn't just go places by chance; if she's there, there's a reason. So ... - Jones is there to tell them about something that's happened or is happening
- Jones is there to tell them about something that's going to happen (as in someone's planning to do it soon)
Also ... - Jones is there on her own accord
- Jones is there because she was sent by someone else (which she wouldn't do unless it was important)
So many possibilities today! I wonder what's the least likely thing, that nobody would expect. Probably "Jones herself is in trouble and needs help."
What's Jones looking at? She's looking slightly upward and to her right. But in that last panel, there's nothing in that direction. Annie's in front and to her left. Kat's farther back and to the right, hardly requiring an upward look. Renard's off the bottom of the panel. Why's Jones looking at the sky? Is the Forest sky symbol up? Or is the Court sky symbol up? Maybe they're demanding that Loup come to them to discuss the lake water. |
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Post by DonDueed on Mar 16, 2021 16:15:28 GMT
You know Jones showing up is either something none of us can really predict (Cages! Shadowy shadow men stuff! Kidnappings! Zimmy! Randy Disaster!), ooorrrrrr she's there because she's picking Annie up to finally go deliver the lake water to Loup. You know, that giant plot point we've been avoiding for 4 chapters and... <checks notes> 11 months of storytelling. Maybe they've already killed Loup or are imminently going to or Annie's not invited after all. I think Annie is invited, albeit in a ... restricted way. And Jones is there to deliver the news. That's my guess. EDIT to add: I think it's been about a month since the event with the Norns, because Kat then cut her hair, and now it is evidently 1/2 inch longer than before, more or less. So the Court's been up to some shenanigans in the background for sure. Just thinking logically about why Jones might be there ... I'm a lister ... - Jones is there by chance on the way to somewhere else (very unlikely)
- Jones is there to talk to Annie
- Jones is there to talk to Kat
- Jones is there to talk to Renard
Jones typically doesn't just go places by chance; if she's there, there's a reason. So ... - Jones is there to tell them about something that's happened or is happening
- Jones is there to tell them about something that's going to happen (as in someone's planning to do it soon)
Also ... - Jones is there on her own accord
- Jones is there because she was sent by someone else (which she wouldn't do unless it was important)
So many possibilities today! I wonder what's the least likely thing, that nobody would expect. Probably "Jones herself is in trouble and needs help."
What's Jones looking at? She's looking slightly upward and to her right. But in that last panel, there's nothing in that direction. Annie's in front and to her left. Kat's farther back and to the right, hardly requiring an upward look. Renard's off the bottom of the panel. Why's Jones looking at the sky? Is the Forest sky symbol up? Or is the Court sky symbol up? Maybe they're demanding that Loup come to them to discuss the lake water. Maybe Jones is there on her own accord because she heard that the Annies had merged and wanted to see for herself, either simply to confirm or maybe to determine exactly what the result turned out to be.
It looks to me like Jones is looking straight at Annie, though her right eye does seem to be aimed a bit upward. Maybe just a glitch in the artwork.
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Post by DonDueed on Mar 16, 2021 16:22:17 GMT
Tom has gotten so good at portraying motion in his comic, you almost forget that it's all just static images. It's about as close as you can get to Hogwarts-style moving photos.
This page is a great example -- look at the girls on the stairs, captured in mid-stride. It's superb, and so seemingly effortless. No "motion lines" or similar tricks, just movement so subtly implied that you don't even think about it.
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Post by lurkerbot on Mar 16, 2021 16:25:33 GMT
It looks to me like Jones is looking straight at Annie, though her right eye does seem to be aimed a bit upward. Maybe just a glitch in the artwork.
I think Jones' right eye is looking straight ahead if one accounts for her hair slightly obscuring the right side of her eye and face. |
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Post by Sky Schemer on Mar 16, 2021 17:44:05 GMT
I am highly amused by how Jones' facial expression has never, ever changed, and yet right now everyone is projecting what they think she's feeling, the purpose of her appearance, and what she's about to say by panel composition alone. "Antimony. I am excited to see you." |
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Post by pyradonis on Mar 16, 2021 18:02:58 GMT
I am highly amused by how Jones' facial expression has never, ever changed, and yet right now everyone is projecting what they think she's feeling, the purpose of her appearance, and what she's about to say by panel composition alone. Thinking again, she did look pretty annoyed on this page. |
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Post by bedinsis on Mar 16, 2021 20:26:12 GMT
I am highly amused by how Jones' facial expression has never, ever changed, and yet right now everyone is projecting what they think she's feeling, the purpose of her appearance, and what she's about to say by panel composition alone. The Kuleshov effect in motion. |
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Post by lurkerbot on Mar 16, 2021 22:53:55 GMT
I am highly amused by how Jones' facial expression has never, ever changed, and yet right now everyone is projecting what they think she's feeling, the purpose of her appearance, and what she's about to say by panel composition alone. Thinking again, she did look pretty annoyed on this page. Also this page, but maybe that's because of her folded arms rather than her facial expression. |
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Post by saardvark on Mar 17, 2021 1:25:01 GMT
Thinking again, she did look pretty annoyed on this page. Also this page, but maybe that's because of her folded arms rather than her facial expression. I think she does look just a smidge annoyed.... And briefly surprised here (panel 3, she's covered it back up under stoicism by panel 4): www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2007 |
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Post by pyradonis on Mar 17, 2021 10:51:33 GMT
Thinking again, she did look pretty annoyed on this page. Also this page, but maybe that's because of her folded arms rather than her facial expression. Actually, when I turn my head (or the page) upside down, she looks more pensive to me on that one... |
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Post by saardvark on Mar 17, 2021 11:24:44 GMT
Also this page, but maybe that's because of her folded arms rather than her facial expression. Actually, when I turn my head (or the page) upside down, she looks more pensive to me on that one... you're right! Like "when is *this* going to end?" or maybe she's just working out pi to the google-th place to pass the time.... |
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Post by Isildur on Mar 23, 2021 22:43:19 GMT
I wonder if Jones feels some type of proto-feeling in regards to james having idra. She says she cant feel emotions but I wonder how true that is. She felt some form of excitement/hope when humans came to be (that there were creatures like her), she likes to form attachments to people. She feels feelings. I think she doesn't know what they are, though, or actively represses them, or has felt them so often through billions of years that they don't really register to her consciously anymore. Or else it amuses her to play "stone face" as much as it amuses me to watch her blatantly lie and say she doesn't have emotions. Sure the language of having emotions has only been around for an eyeblink compared to her. Maybe she thinks of her emotions as something else entirely. I don't get the impression that this affect-worn-down-over-time explanation is accurate. If she ever had an overt emotional reaction even early on, and if her claim to completely remember every moment of her existence since the beginning of her conscious existence is true, and if she was being wholly truthful when she described herself to Annie, then she's always been like this, or she'd recall the discrepancy. That said, any being (down to a bacterium) that doesn't just lie still has motivation or some sort of equivalent. Jones is driven by something; she has some sort of need to be an active participant in history and not just lie still like a true stone. (Ok, you can argue that a stone rolling downhill is motivated by gravity-- and maybe at some sort of very, very dim level, it is.) Annie also had a point in 1126 about Jones's evidence of sentiment. (Yes, she was asked to take the names, but without any sentiment or emotion to trigger a sense of wright/wrong, why bother truly honoring the requests of the deceased?) Jones may consider it simulating sentiment through practice (and may have thanked Annie while internally thinking Annie's claim naive), but simulations can have their own internal reality (at some level, we ourselves are just individual cells pretending to be a whole, and yet, through some miracle, we are truly conscious beings), and anyway, there's some reason Jones decided to take on that honorable ethos and not another. |
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