|
|
Post by beaukm on Jan 30, 2021 0:17:00 GMT
A note: it feels like Zimmy Town plays fast and loose with its own rules and concepts, considering it’s a place of chaos borne from Zimmy. So what I say next could just as well be wrong, but:
While it could be true that only one of the Annie’s is the ‘true’ one here, and the other an illusion— which certainly does echo the argument about which Annie is the ‘real’ one and which is ‘Loup’s trick’— let’s remember that Gamma has just said they’re all fractions of Annie and Zimmy, and that when we look back on Spring Heeled, Part 2, Gamma touched the MEMORY form of Jack WITHOUT him ‘GOP’-ing. Thus, despite C!Annie touching Fake!Rey earlier in the chapter, I’m not yet singularly convinced C!Annie isn’t real. It may even be that the two will end up fighting about which of them is ‘real’, in a way having Annie and Zimmy confront issues within themselves.
|
|
|
|
Post by speedwell on Jan 30, 2021 0:54:15 GMT
I wonder whether Zimmy has "gop" powers when she is Annie. (As far as "gopping" itself is concerned, I think it has to be done with intent.)
|
|
|
|
Post by saardvark on Jan 30, 2021 1:34:36 GMT
Way back in Kat no GOP, we saw Annie touch a fake Kat without her doing the GOP thing. But just a bit later, when Gamma knew it wasn't a real Kat, Gamma touched her and Kat GOP. So there is precedent for Annie touching a nobody and having them not GOP. I've always wondered about that incident. Annie didn't understand the GOP thing at all until Zimmy made her take Gamma's place, and she remembered seeing Gamma touch a student like she expected something to happen. She then touched a nobody and it GOPped. So you don't need to know GOP will happen to get the GOP effect. She also didn't realize the nobodies weren't real people at that time, until Zimmy told her.
Maybe it can be overridden with will, or wishful thinking? Annie wanted Kat to be real in that old incident, and now I'm sure she wants Renard and the other Annie to be real. We know she is, at least in part, creating this place, so I could believe that one or more of the current crew isn't real, despite touching. when asked that very question: "Annie was not strong enough." According to Tom, at that time at least, it wasn't a matter of whether Annie wanted Kat to be real; it was a matter of the Nobody Kat being somehow more difficult to GOP than the random Nobodies. But why was Nobody Kat some kind of higher level Nobody? Maybe because both Zimmy and Annie had seen Kat in the physical world, while most Nobodies are based on people only Zimmy has seen? Maybe because both Zimmy and Annie had interacted with Real Kat, while most Nobodies are based on people Zimmy's only seen in passing, not interacted with (which is why their faces are all vague)? Maybe because Kat is Annie's friend (that is, she has a strong personal connection with her)? Or maybe Nobody Kat was more difficult to GOP simply because Annie wanted her to be real. That circles back around to basically the same thing. If that's the case, Annie wasn't strong enough to GOP somebody she didn't want to vanish, to dispel an appealing illusion. But now it appears that Forest Annie, at least, is strong enough to do that. Yes! Thats what I think it is... she wasn't strong enough to believe it wasn't Kat, to want it not to be Kat, to make it not be Kat. I think you need to be intentional about gopping (like speedwell and others) and believe the target to be unreal, want it to be unreal, or at least not care. If you think its real or aren't at least questioning/uncertian, it doesnt work. Forest realizes the illusion Surma will be confusing and potentially damaging (emotionally) to the three of them, and, look like her mum or not, wants her GONE. |
|
|
|
Post by saardvark on Jan 30, 2021 1:36:48 GMT
A note: it feels like Zimmy Town plays fast and loose with its own rules and concepts, considering it’s a place of chaos borne from Zimmy. So what I say next could just as well be wrong, but: While it could be true that only one of the Annie’s is the ‘true’ one here, and the other an illusion— which certainly does echo the argument about which Annie is the ‘real’ one and which is ‘Loup’s trick’— let’s remember that Gamma has just said they’re all fractions of Annie and Zimmy, and that when we look back on Spri Heeled, Part 2, Gamma touched the MEMORY form of Jack WITHOUT him ‘GOP’-ing. Thus, despite C!Annie touching Fake!Rey earlier in the chapter, I’m not yet singularly convinced C!Annie isn’t real. It may even be that the two will end up fighting about which of them is ‘real’, in a way having Annie and Zimmy confront issues within themselves. welcome to the forum, Beaukm! |
|
|
|
Post by pyradonis on Jan 30, 2021 12:42:02 GMT
It's worth noting that the more time the Annies spend apart at any given time, the more they'll diverge from how they were when they were split from the timeline. Also, Court Annie may have a deeper longing for parental comfort and affection since Forest Annie has been occasionally seeing their dad's true persona while Court Annie has yet to get Tony to crack a smile around her. This could make Court Annie more emotionally vulnerable to illusions of Surma, who was a strong source of parental affection in the past. That was my exact thought too. Both Annies could well still be real and this reaction would still make sense because their relationships to Tony are different. That seems very important. EDIT: The other explanation *could* be that the Annies have been separated and this particular Court Annie isn't real. Both would be interesting. It's a feature of Zimmyland that it just keeps you guessing. Very convenient for Tom as a writer, in a way! Quite possibly this illusion world has multiple illusions built into it for storywriting purposes. Also quite possibly, the expectation he'll subvert this time is that Annie will be subject to all kinds of illusions, just like he subverted the expectation Tony would not immediately give Renard back in The Breakout.  Crazy idea: Annie F. and Annie C. are both in Birminghell, but separated - and each one is accompanied by a fake Annie, Renard and those elf kids. Sometimes we see one group and sometimes the other. And that's why on the page before fake Surma appears, Annie F. is walking in front, but on the current page, Annie C. is in front.
I read this in Spock's voice. 
Then, as imaginaryfriend said here, there's the question of whether GOPping an image of somebody real has a lasting effect, either on them or on your memory of them.? I think if that was the case, we would have learned of it in the 60(!) chapters since Gamme GOPped the fake Kat.
So, Forest Annie was the only one who touched Zimmy before we went into Zimmingham proper. Also it was only Forest Annie who gopped the nobodies initially. It seems like she may be the only one of our heroes who was pulled in. Of course Renard is watching with Gamma while Court Annie isn't, but that could probably be explained by the fact that Renard is an etheric entity in a way the Annies aren't. The only other character who touched Zimmy was Tam, assuming that's actually his name. Presumably then the three forest kids have been create by reflections of his psyche the way Renard and Court Annie are of Forest Annie. Forest Annie is probably going to have to find him in order to get out of here. True, although the other times people ended up in Birminghell there was no correlation to whether they had been touching Zimmy before. |
|
|
|
Post by saardvark on Jan 30, 2021 14:42:20 GMT
Zimmy pretty much says it www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=468"It's only as real as you let it be" ... so if you don't "let it be real", it isn't, and you can gop it. ...though its curious that Zimms herself doesnt gop... maybe she has no ability to control her own illusions. |
|
|
|
Post by imaginaryfriend on Jan 30, 2021 18:36:38 GMT
Welcome to the forum, beaukm ! ...though its curious that Zimms herself doesnt gop... maybe she has no ability to control her own illusions. Maybe the reason Zeta's so violent (and values violence) is because that's what she has to use to fend off Nobodies when she's alone. Assuming that she spent some time with her parents as a kid before she met Gamma, Zeta likely had either Zimmingham or proto-Zimmingham events where she got to see herself as her parents saw her... troubled, pitiful, problematic, perhaps even annoyingly beloved despite the issues her powers caused. As "Zimmingham" would have just been her home and maybe the immediate surroundings I suspect they might not have even known anything strange was happening at first. I'm wildly speculating Zeta couldn't stand them and thus violently offed the offending images of herself in her parents' minds as soon as she was able and that's why they don't remember her. ...But there was probably a time when a hug from Ma or Da worked as well as Gamma's embrace does now. I think if that was the case, we would have learned of it in the 60(!) chapters since Gamme GOPped the fake Kat. Maybe gopping isn't the same as violently squishing a spider or offing a Nobody. Or maybe it is and it just eliminates a single memory, not your entire recollection of a person close to you at once. |
|
|
|
Post by Angry Individual on Jan 31, 2021 2:24:30 GMT
Coming back from my hole in the ground to put on my tinfoil hat and say this may result in C!Annie possibly getting GOP'd for real or something equally crazy.
I don't know why I have this feeling, but I feel like something is going to happen to the Annies one way or another in this chapter.
Either way, seeing Renard react this way is very strange and also kind of sad.
|
|
|
|
Post by Gulby on Jan 31, 2021 7:07:50 GMT
Zimmy pretty much says it www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=468"It's only as real as you let it be" ... so if you don't "let it be real", it isn't, and you can gop it. ...though its curious that Zimms herself doesnt gop... maybe she has no ability to control her own illusions. Since the first appearance of Zimmingham, it reminds me painfully of what it's like to have anxiety disorder. In an extreme and picturesque way, I think that Zimmigham is that : a glimpse into the brain of someone having panic attacks and depression. When you're having a panic attack, even though you KNOW what you are feeling isn't true, isn't happening, you can't stop it. You can't act on it. That's why, in my opinion, Zimmy can't GOP her own illusions. And that's why, too, she has different levels of disruption, sometimes she can manage because Gamma's here, sometimes an external factor messes with her ability to avoid panic attacks (as in Powerplant), and sometimes she's just alone because Gamma has to sleep and the thought of feeling it by herself is just too harsh. That's my two cents... |
|
|
|
Post by drmemory on Jan 31, 2021 7:19:52 GMT
Just a minute ago:
Gamma: "She always does this to herself. She's always beating herself up."
Reynard: "Why?"
Gamma: "Because she believes she deserves it."
Just before that:
Gamma: "That's not you. It's a part of Antimony. They all are, in a way. Parts of Zimmy too."
And now Surma shows up. Antimony blames herself for killing Surma (accurately, sort of).
So... Maybe we're seeing Annie beat herself up, because she deserves it? Still doesn't explain why the toy store is the place to go to do that, but Gamma was expecting it and she is a heck of a lot more experienced with all things involving Zimmy.
Of course, with two Annies here, "beating herself up" could turn literal!
I think we're seeing something very psychological and personal here.
|
|
|
|
Post by saardvark on Jan 31, 2021 13:13:24 GMT
Just a minute ago: Gamma: "She always does this to herself. She's always beating herself up." Reynard: "Why?" Gamma: "Because she believes she deserves it." Just before that: Gamma: "That's not you. It's a part of Antimony. They all are, in a way. Parts of Zimmy too." And now Surma shows up. Antimony blames herself for killing Surma (accurately, sort of). So... Maybe we're seeing Annie beat herself up, because she deserves it? Still doesn't explain why the toy store is the place to go to do that, but Gamma was expecting it and she is a heck of a lot more experienced with all things involving Zimmy. Of course, with two Annies here, "beating herself up" could turn literal! I think we're seeing something very psychological and personal here. ...and what's. more, F!Annie just "killed" "Surma" AGAIN! So the current scene is a warped replay of the whole psychological trauma of losing her mum and discovering she was, in some way, partly responsible... |
|
|
|
Post by justhalf on Feb 1, 2021 2:31:53 GMT
Fake Renard's response to this is very weird. I thought he already moved on (still love her, but would be wise enough not to be carried away like this). Hope Annies can notice that too. Fake Renard is literally conjured from their minds, his response is precisely what Annie expects his response to be. Presumably Forest Annie is definitely real then if she GOPed Surma, I notice she very specifically didn't touch Fake Renard or Court Annie, is Court Annie also fake? Yes, that's what I meant, I meant to say that Renard's response is weird if we assume he is real (as Annie would have assumed, but we the readers knew better), so I was hoping Annie can recognize this and GOPed him too. |
|
|
|
Post by kayback on Feb 1, 2021 11:57:36 GMT
What's with the change in art style, this is looking very Manga/Dragon Ball Z ish.
I know Tom keeps switching up styles but it's been fairly consistent for a long time now.
|
|
