[2422] She wasn't real!

[jda]

WELP. I think now is the time Reynard pops.
Way to resolve your Mommy issues, Annie.


A clear reference to when Gamma gopped falseKat, I find it creepy how C!Annie knew that wasn't Surma (therefore, the "No!", knowing she would be gopped), and still angers to F!Annie..


Seems like a trip into the Zimmyverse could be an advanced instrument of (horror)therapy. Ayahuasca, anyone?

[madjack]

Forest!Annie keeping her head is an encouraging sign.

[justhalf]

Fake Renard's response to this is very weird. I thought he already moved on (still love her, but would be wise enough not to be carried away like this). Hope Annies can notice that too.

[jda]

Now I notice C!Annie has not touched F!Annie and fakeRenard. Would they be gopped in?

[wies]

This is a sad page.

Jan 29, 2021 8:07:46 GMT jda said:

WELP. I think now is the time Reynard pops.
I find it creepy how C!Annie knew that wasn't Surma (therefore, the "No!", knowing she would be gopped), and still angers to F!Annie..

C knew, but the hooks of grief can cut so deep it overrides ratio. It is a bit like the mirror of erised, somewhere you *know* it is false, but the confrontation with reality is often less alluring than the comforts of an illusion. But still, F knew better and immediately dispelled the illusion before it could get more emotional. It is a rude wake-up call for C so I understand her anger, having in a sense lost her mother again and quick too.

More creepy for me is Renard (who is probably fake) constantly stammering surma's name, as if he too is stuck in grief. I think he is a warning for C for what happens if you let yourself be swallowed up by grief.

The comic is about, and other things too, death and how to handle that, after all.

[speedwell]

Jan 29, 2021 8:11:07 GMT madjack said:

Forest!Annie keeping her head is an encouraging sign.

Nothing is an encouraging sign in here. I in fact took it as a possible sign that Forest Annie wasn't an Annie at all, given that she appeared to react to Court Annie's and Renard's apparent recognition of Surma and not necessarily to the sight of Surma. 

It may be important to point out that it is not the case that Forest Annie is "the Annie who spent time in the Forest" where Court Annie is "the Annie who didn't"; they both spent that summer and subsequent visits in the Forest. There is nothing in particular that should have caused them to have such wildly different reactions to the illusory Surma. If pushed I would have expected Forest Annie to have "failed her roll to resist illusion" before Court Annie did.

[speedwell]

Jan 29, 2021 8:19:06 GMT justhalf said:

Fake Renard's response to this is very weird. I thought he already moved on (still love her, but would be wise enough not to be carried away like this). Hope Annies can notice that too.

I think it's very natural. She must appear just as she does in his memory. That can powerfully affect older people; the reaction in novels of "the child looks so heartbreakingly like the parent" is a real thing.

We can see that exact reaction when he first saw Annie, even though she was a little schoolgirl and not the seductive young woman Surma was when he last saw her. We can also take that as evidence that, doglike, his sense of sight is less important than his sense of smell (or his sense of Ether for that matter). I wonder whether, given a little time to collect himself, Renard wouldn't have recognised that the "person" didn't have the same Etheric appearance as a real Surma would have. Although to be fair I don't know that the illusion wasn't Etheric as well as conventional-sensory, which raises a whole boatload of other questions.

[migrantworker]

Court!Zimmy on panel 5, or not?

For: getting confrontational all of a sudden.
Against: no pointy teeth.

[philman]

Jan 29, 2021 8:19:06 GMT justhalf said:

Fake Renard's response to this is very weird. I thought he already moved on (still love her, but would be wise enough not to be carried away like this). Hope Annies can notice that too.

Fake Renard is literally conjured from their minds, his response is precisely what Annie expects his response to be.

Presumably Forest Annie is definitely real then if she GOPed Surma, I notice she very specifically didn't touch Fake Renard or Court Annie, is Court Annie also fake?

[Vuk(Wolf)]

Court Annie did touch Renard here, yet he wasn't GOPed. It would appear that Court Annie is indeed fake, given that her contact with Renard who we know is fake didn't GOP him.

[madjack]

Jan 29, 2021 8:42:38 GMT speedwell said:

Jan 29, 2021 8:11:07 GMT madjack said:

Forest!Annie keeping her head is an encouraging sign.

Nothing is an encouraging sign in here. I in fact took it as a possible sign that Forest Annie wasn't an Annie at all, given that she appeared to react to Court Annie's and Renard's apparent recognition of Surma and not necessarily to the sight of Surma. 

It may be important to point out that it is not the case that Forest Annie is "the Annie who spent time in the Forest" where Court Annie is "the Annie who didn't"; they both spent that summer and subsequent visits in the Forest. There is nothing in particular that should have caused them to have such wildly different reactions to the illusory Surma. If pushed I would have expected Forest Annie to have "failed her roll to resist illusion" before Court Annie did.

Given some time to think over this page, I don't think they're split on the same lines as we've seen before. They're both Annie alright, but this looks like different facets of her personality about to face off against the others (especially given what Gamma said about the Renard that's with them). Forest!Annie reacted to them buying in to the illusion. The conflict might not be the healthiest outcome here but it's better than lying to yourself. But who's telling what lies?

[shadow3]

It's worth noting that the more time the Annies spend apart at any given time, the more they'll diverge from how they were when they were split from the timeline.

Also, Court Annie may have a deeper longing for parental comfort and affection since Forest Annie has been occasionally seeing their dad's true persona while Court Annie has yet to get Tony to crack a smile around her.

This could make Court Annie more emotionally vulnerable to illusions of Surma, who was a strong source of parental affection in the past.

[King Mir]

Jan 29, 2021 9:12:41 GMT Vuk(Wolf) said:

Court Annie did touch Renard here, yet he wasn't GOPed. It would appear that Court Annie is indeed fake, given that her contact with Renard who we know is fake didn't GOP him.

In the past, Annie touched fake kat without making her disappear, so that'snot much evidence: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=463

I think the reason one Annie reacts different here is mearly because she was lucky enough to be further back and so saw the other two get mesmerized.

[Eily]

We already know the Renard in that scene is not the real one. And my guess would be that it's also true of one of the Annies, probably Courtnie. In this page, the reason Sylvannie couldn't contact Courtnie could simply be that the latter just isn't there.

[csj]

remember this scene? zimmy!rey probably does

gonna be a fun monday I sure am looking forward to it oh boy

[saardvark]

Jan 29, 2021 12:00:45 GMT Eily said:

We already know the Renard in that scene is not the real one. And my guess would be that it's also true of one of the Annies, probably Courtnie. In this page, the reason Sylvannie couldn't contact Courtnie could simply be that the latter just isn't there.

Might explain why Plush!Renard dosent gop when Courtney touches him as well; she isn't real, so no real touch.  My impression is both Annies are real though - maybe you have to be intentional about your gopping.  That would explain why Kat doesnt gop in King Mir's example....

[ohthatone]

I don't know if this page argues for one annie being real or not, but i see it as when we are of 2 minds about something. Annie is just taking it literally here. I dont think it means one of them isn't real I just think we've all been somewhere we want to do x but know we should do y.

[philman]

Jan 29, 2021 10:02:59 GMT King Mir said:

Jan 29, 2021 9:12:41 GMT Vuk(Wolf) said:

Court Annie did touch Renard here, yet he wasn't GOPed. It would appear that Court Annie is indeed fake, given that her contact with Renard who we know is fake didn't GOP him.

In the past, Annie touched fake kat without making her disappear, so that'snot much evidence: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=463

I think the reason one Annie reacts different here is mearly because she was lucky enough to be further back and so saw the other two get mesmerized.

Ah, so they have to know, or at least suspect, they are fake in order to GOP them, it can't happen accidentally

[echo]

Dang it I hate when people spontaneously dissolve into paintlike goop. 

[pyradonis]

Jan 29, 2021 8:07:46 GMT jda said:

A clear reference to when Gamma gopped falseKat, I find it creepy how C!Annie knew that wasn't Surma (therefore, the "No!", knowing she would be gopped), and still angers to F!Annie..

Back then, Annie also didn't want Kat to let herself be touched by Gamma, meaning she already knew or feared what would be about to happen.

Jan 29, 2021 8:42:38 GMT speedwell said:

Jan 29, 2021 8:11:07 GMT madjack said:

Forest!Annie keeping her head is an encouraging sign.

Nothing is an encouraging sign in here. I in fact took it as a possible sign that Forest Annie wasn't an Annie at all, given that she appeared to react to Court Annie's and Renard's apparent recognition of Surma and not necessarily to the sight of Surma. 

It may be important to point out that it is not the case that Forest Annie is "the Annie who spent time in the Forest" where Court Annie is "the Annie who didn't"; they both spent that summer and subsequent visits in the Forest. There is nothing in particular that should have caused them to have such wildly different reactions to the illusory Surma. If pushed I would have expected Forest Annie to have "failed her roll to resist illusion" before Court Annie did.

I also found their wildly differing reactions strange at first; to me it had felt the two Annies had become more and more similar over time. But as others have pointed out, they keep on having different experiences with their remaining parent, which might play into this. Also, it might very well be that Annie F. did not see the fake Surma at first, but she saw Annie C.'s and "Renard"'s reactions and concluded whatever they were seeing must obviously be an illusion. Basically she braced herself for seeing an illusion and determined to destroy it as quickly as possible before she even looked at the fake Surma.

"Renard"'s continuing stammering is so wildly OOC, under normal circumstances the Annies should realize he cannot be real. They might have different things on their minds though.

[bendoubles]

So, Forest Annie was the only one who touched Zimmy before we went into Zimmingham proper. Also it was only Forest Annie who gopped the nobodies initially.

It seems like she may be the only one of our heroes who was pulled in. Of course Renard is watching with Gamma while Court Annie isn't, but that could probably be explained by the fact that Renard is an etheric entity in a way the Annies aren't.

The only other character who touched Zimmy was Tam, assuming that's actually his name. Presumably then the three forest kids have been create by reflections of his psyche the way Renard and Court Annie are of Forest Annie. Forest Annie is probably going to have to find him in order to get out of here.

[novia]

So we're back to the old "which Annie is the real Annie?" debate. Please note that so far Forest Annie is the only person who has gopped anyone.

[ctso74]

In Power Station, not everyone was pulled in. Only Jack and Annie. The other students didn't even know time had past. I guess to them, it didn't.
Courtnie could have simply been left out of this "excursion"("submergence"? What do you call going into the Zimmyverse?). On the other hand, they both could have been pulled in, and they simple reacted to the vision differently. Both are plausible.
I'm more worried about Gamma's apprehension, about them going here.

[Gemminie]

So, a bunch of impressions about this page ...

In the last panel of the previous page, it's Forest Annie who appears to be leading the way, but suddenly, in the first panel here, it's Court Annie who's ahead, and Renard is in front of her (though because he's short, we didn't really see where he was on the previous page's last panel). This is probably an indication that Court Annie has taken several steps forward in those moments, and Renard has gone even farther, indicating how much each of them believe the illusion. Forest Annie's in the background with the elf kids, but she still looks pretty amazed by the sight. But is she amazed by the sight of Surma, or by the sight of Court Annie and Renard believing Surma's real?

Suddenly Forest Annie charges past both of them at great speed – that's practically a leap there. She's impelled to sudden action. She sees what's happening and isn't fooled. Upset, but not fooled.

Then, as others have remarked, Court Annie cries out, "No!" It's possible that she's just realized what's about to happen, similar to her behavior when Gamma was reaching out to touch Kat in chapter 19. Remember that, as I'm coming back to it shortly.

Both Annies slam their eyes shut for the GOP – they both know it's going to happen and don't want to see it. I think neither one of them wants to see an image of their mother exploding, even though they both now know it isn't really her. I think anyone would find it disturbing to see the sudden dissolution of such a realistic image of a loved one.

Court Annie's reaction is sudden and sharp, not rational. There's sweat on her face, a result of the stress from the last two panels. The elf kids in the background are again drawn schematically, just to remind us that they're there and seeing this. Are they seeing the same thing?

Forest Annie's response is interesting. "She wasn't real!" Not "It wasn't really her!" The distinction bites at my heart. Forest Annie's put some emotional distance between herself and her mother, and I don't think she's really saying that Surma was never real, or never really her mother, but even the thought. Ouch. We can't really see the expression on Court Annie's face here, but it probably hasn't changed much since the previous panel.

Now, we know Renard isn't the real Renard, but why do the two Annies here react in such different ways? Well, I've said numerous times that Court Annie has regressed to a more immature emotional state as a result of her rejection from the Forest by Loup (who didn't even bother to tell her his new name). When she went back into the Forest, Annie was really putting on her big girl pants there, taking a big step forward in maturity, but Court Annie experienced a serious pushback from that, which led her to cut her hair short and go back to wearing makeup, even insisting on it over her father's objections. But still, does that mean she'd be so taken in by an illusion that she'd resist and resent disillusion?

I doubt it. Others have already mentioned evidence that Court Annie isn't real either, and I agree. Her reaction here is just like her reaction from chapter 19, as if she hasn't emotionally progressed past that point. I think we're seeing not Court Annie, but Forest Annie's impression of her at some level, just as we're seeing her impression of Renard at some level. Zimmingham is bringing out her worst impressions of everyone. Forest Annie's worst impression of Court Annie is that she's emotionally immature. I'm starting to suspect we're going to see Forest Annie GOP everyone else and find out that she's actually alone (or almost, at least – in my mind, the jury's still out on whether the elf kids are real or Nobody duplicates). Then she'll literally have to Find Herself.

Then, as imaginaryfriend said here, there's the question of whether GOPping an image of somebody real has a lasting effect, either on them or on your memory of them. Will Annie's memory of Surma fade as a result of this act, even just a bit? What if Forest Annie's memory of Surma becomes vaguer while Court Annie (wherever she really is) retains more memories?

[drmemory]

Jan 29, 2021 9:12:41 GMT Vuk(Wolf) said:

Court Annie did touch Renard here, yet he wasn't GOPed. It would appear that Court Annie is indeed fake, given that her contact with Renard who we know is fake didn't GOP him.

Way back in Kat no GOP, we saw Annie touch a fake Kat without her doing the GOP thing.  But just a bit later, when Gamma knew it wasn't a real Kat, Gamma touched her and Kat GOP.  So there is precedent for Annie touching a nobody and having them not GOP.

I've always wondered about that incident.  Annie didn't understand the GOP thing at all until Zimmy made her take Gamma's place, and she remembered seeing Gamma touch a student like she expected something to happen.  She then touched a nobody and it GOPped.  So you don't need to know GOP will happen to get the GOP effect.  She also didn't realize the nobodies weren't real people at that time, until Zimmy told her.

Maybe it can be overridden with will, or wishful thinking?  Annie wanted Kat to be real in that old incident, and now I'm sure she wants Renard and the other Annie to be real.  We know she is, at least in part, creating this place, so I could believe that one or more of the current crew isn't real, despite touching.

[jasmijn]

What I want to know is what the Republican Party has to do with all this.

[novia]

Jan 29, 2021 17:35:50 GMT drmemory said:

Jan 29, 2021 9:12:41 GMT Vuk(Wolf) said:

Court Annie did touch Renard here, yet he wasn't GOPed. It would appear that Court Annie is indeed fake, given that her contact with Renard who we know is fake didn't GOP him.

Way back in Kat no GOP, we saw Annie touch a fake Kat without her doing the GOP thing.  But just a bit later, when Gamma knew it wasn't a real Kat, Gamma touched her and Kat GOP.  So there is precedent for Annie touching a nobody and having them not GOP.

I've always wondered about that incident.  Annie didn't understand the GOP thing at all until Zimmy made her take Gamma's place, and she remembered seeing Gamma touch a student like she expected something to happen.  She then touched a nobody and it GOPped.  So you don't need to know GOP will happen to get the GOP effect.  She also didn't realize the nobodies weren't real people at that time, until Zimmy told her.

Maybe it can be overridden with will, or wishful thinking?  Annie wanted Kat to be real in that old incident, and now I'm sure she wants Renard and the other Annie to be real.  We know she is, at least in part, creating this place, so I could believe that one or more of the current crew isn't real, despite touching.

It should also be noted that Antimony tried to warn fake Kat not to touch Gamma.

[mturtle7]

You know, for once, this is pretty much in line for my expectations of what would happen. I was so completely thrown by the twist last page, I hesitated a lot to put any speculation about what exactly might happen next a couple of days ago. But I did think about it a little, and here was my thought process (more or less):

1) Well, Annie MIGHT just desperately try and bottle up her emotions behind her usual mask of calm & efficient stoicism (e.g. "Ah yes. I see that Zimmy's nightmare world is producing illusions based on my own psyche. Let us vacate the premises immediately, and continue searching for Gamma. Good thing I'm not upset by this in any way, or we might be in real trouble.")

2) OR she could just have a very public complete emotional breakdown. (e.g. "MUMMMMYYYYYY I MISSED YOU SO MUUUUCCCCCH")

3) Both seem equally in character for her, which would it be?!

4) Oh hey, she might just be able just do both, by using her twinned self to represent her inner conflict to herself. Man, I wish *I* had a second self to bounce all my emotional reactions off of. It's HELLA convenient, psychologically.

5) I wonder which one will have which reaction. I guess Court will act stoic, since she's associated with cold-science-land and is generally slightly more badass? Or maybe she'll be the one to break down, since she's used to having Surma's makeup and necklace...

6) Actually, MAYBE her 2 selves have synchronized so much that they'll actually just have the same reaction? I don't want to assume anything, after Tom just threw that Surma thing out of left field...

EDIT: Oh, right, also Renard. That reaction seems pretty darn straightforward to me. I mean, I'm still kind of unsure how much he counts as "the real Renard", but standing and staring while stupidly stuttering out your dead girlfriend's crush's name over and over seems like an entirely reasonable thing to do while your adult brain tries to process this.

[Gemminie]

Jan 29, 2021 17:35:50 GMT drmemory said:

Way back in Kat no GOP, we saw Annie touch a fake Kat without her doing the GOP thing.  But just a bit later, when Gamma knew it wasn't a real Kat, Gamma touched her and Kat GOP.  So there is precedent for Annie touching a nobody and having them not GOP.

I've always wondered about that incident.  Annie didn't understand the GOP thing at all until Zimmy made her take Gamma's place, and she remembered seeing Gamma touch a student like she expected something to happen.  She then touched a nobody and it GOPped.  So you don't need to know GOP will happen to get the GOP effect.  She also didn't realize the nobodies weren't real people at that time, until Zimmy told her.

Maybe it can be overridden with will, or wishful thinking?  Annie wanted Kat to be real in that old incident, and now I'm sure she wants Renard and the other Annie to be real.  We know she is, at least in part, creating this place, so I could believe that one or more of the current crew isn't real, despite touching.

Word of Tom when asked that very question: "Annie was not strong enough." According to Tom, at that time at least, it wasn't a matter of whether Annie wanted Kat to be real; it was a matter of the Nobody Kat being somehow more difficult to GOP than the random Nobodies.

But why was Nobody Kat some kind of higher level Nobody? Maybe because both Zimmy and Annie had seen Kat in the physical world, while most Nobodies are based on people only Zimmy has seen? Maybe because both Zimmy and Annie had interacted with Real Kat, while most Nobodies are based on people Zimmy's only seen in passing, not interacted with (which is why their faces are all vague)? Maybe because Kat is Annie's friend (that is, she has a strong personal connection with her)? Or maybe Nobody Kat was more difficult to GOP simply because Annie wanted her to be real. That circles back around to basically the same thing. If that's the case, Annie wasn't strong enough to GOP somebody she didn't want to vanish, to dispel an appealing illusion. But now it appears that Forest Annie, at least, is strong enough to do that.

[fia]

Jan 29, 2021 9:30:21 GMT shadow3 said:

It's worth noting that the more time the Annies spend apart at any given time, the more they'll diverge from how they were when they were split from the timeline.

Also, Court Annie may have a deeper longing for parental comfort and affection since Forest Annie has been occasionally seeing their dad's true persona while Court Annie has yet to get Tony to crack a smile around her.

This could make Court Annie more emotionally vulnerable to illusions of Surma, who was a strong source of parental affection in the past.

That was my exact thought too. Both Annies could well still be real and this reaction would still make sense because their relationships to Tony are different. That seems very important.

EDIT: The other explanation *could* be that the Annies have been separated and this particular Court Annie isn't real. Both would be interesting. It's a feature of Zimmyland that it just keeps you guessing. Very convenient for Tom as a writer, in a way!

Quite possibly this illusion world has multiple illusions built into it for storywriting purposes. Also quite possibly, the expectation he'll subvert this time is that Annie will be subject to all kinds of illusions, just like he subverted the expectation Tony would not immediately give Renard back in The Breakout.