[2389] See you later.

[madjack]

Straight back on with the makeup.

[antiyonder]

So whether it's next page or in-between now and then, I wonder if Renard and Fannie will have a back and forth of jabs towards Tony while Fannie sternly says "Renard" each time:-).

[bicarbonat]

Wonder if we're going to find out a little bit more about the conversation that resulted in Court Annie going back to her makeup.

[philman]

Damn Tony, you're going to ruin those socks.

[wies]

Dammit, Tony. Even rather leaving the damn house than to talk with her. (and on socks to boot) Poor Courtnie. But I guess there was some progress.

Interested in Renard speaking up. He has been in the background for a long time, so I hope he and the annies will talk more.

[imaginaryfriend]

As he walks the socks gather samples of dust and precipitation (if any) at street level without disrupting his observation of current weather conditions.

[blazingstar]

I was rather hoping that, at the last minute, Tony would ask C!Annie, "Do you want to come with me?" But it seems like that was too much to ask. Baby steps. 

He's definitely panicking internally, though. First the "Um", then the "I think I...something", and now leaving the house mid-conversation and forgetting to put shoes on. This is the Quiet Person's Version of running the heck away from what scares you (in this case, C!Annie). ALL the social anxiety is being triggered today. 

[blazingstar]

Nov 13, 2020 8:35:39 GMT bicarbonat said:

Wonder if we're going to find out a little bit more about the conversation that resulted in Court Annie going back to her makeup.

You're not the only one.

Nov 11, 2020 20:18:18 GMT foxurus said:

Hot take: Something happened between Anthony and Court Annie over the six months (perhaps the argument about her makeup) that led to Anthony having an emotional breakthrough regarding his daughter. But because she was part of the argument which spurred the breakthrough, and because it'd be so obvious that it was the argument that changed things, he'd have to say, "I was wrong, you were right," which is immensely shameful and difficult for him to do. He's probably embarrassed that he even had the argument with her, and wishes to just forget about it. The important thing is: instead of being unable to talk to her because of his past actions, now he can't talk to her because of his actions in the past six months.

Enter Forest Annie, who doesn't have any memory of this argument. The weight is lifted. Now he can act upon that breakthrough he had with Court Annie, without acknowledging whatever caused it. And unfortunately, Forest Annie gets to reap the benefits of Court Annie's hard work.

Thanks, guys, now this theory is my favorite one so far.

[Tenjen]

ah yes Renard, the paragon of helpful empathy

[Corvo]

Nov 13, 2020 9:25:25 GMT Tenjen said:

ah yes Renard, the paragon of helpful empathy

To be fair, Tony would probably agree with Renard.

[ohthatone]

Bonus page: where tony ends up without his shoes.
"Anthony why aren't you wearing shoes?"
Tony, faced with having to explain why he's freaked out by his own daughter, awkwardly excuses himself again and thus begins the journey of The Shoeless One.

[foxurus]

Nov 13, 2020 9:10:41 GMT blazingstar said:

Thanks, guys, now this theory is my favorite one so far.

I'm glad you like it!


I hadn't considered it before, but Anthony's rush to get away might be because he's on the verge of a panic attack. In which case, leaving might have been the right call; watching her own dad have such an intense breakdown would probably be a bigger destabilizer to her mental health than him not talking to her. At least she's used to him not talking.

[blahzor]

Nov 13, 2020 8:07:03 GMT madjack said:

Straight back on with the makeup.

she can quit it anytime. She just needs a little to get her through today. And maybe some more under the lips in the gums

[ctso74]

The big mystery to me is why he treats Frannie so differently. If Courtnie is bugged, I'd imagine Frannie would be as well, by now.
Perhaps, Courtnie her demanding to wear makeup was something more than she thinks.
Then again, maybe there isn't a reason. He may simply treat them differently, because he's getting "better", and Frannie lucked out. Feelings rarely follow rules and reason, with neurotypical, Schizoid, ASD, or other.

[TBeholder]

That should be very urgent, indeed.
(sigh) I just had to imagine Tony being followed by a sneaky team of Sock Monkeys from Devilbear. And a bunch of robots trying to figure out possible significance of this anomaly.

[ohthatone]

So here's a question. We've seen annie use her make up as an emotional pacifier, something in her brain clearly needs this. Why is forest annie comfortable without it?

[najmniejszy]

Tony leaves a footprint somewhere, it gets trnsported to the past and Jones mistakes it for her own, calling it now
www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1121

[shadow3]

What if Tony suspects Court Annie of being an impostor?

What if something he did to check her status showed something off about her presence?

[fia]

Nov 13, 2020 15:57:33 GMT shadow3 said:

What if Tony suspects Court Annie of being an impostor?

What if something he did to check her status showed something off about her presence?

If anything, this interaction suggests to me (if the impostor-detection theory is correct) that he thinks it's Forest Annie who is the impostor. It's Court Annie causing his panic attack / flight response. A simple impostor probably wouldn't impress him much, in my humble opinion.
The mystery is still WHY. Is Courtnie wearing her mom's necklace? Does Tony still see her and her dead mother simultaneously and feel incredible guilt? Is it something etheric??? If it's something etheric, I'm starting to think it wouldn't fully explain his complete and total panic. I mean, his panic is emotionally driven, by personal experiences –– not by etheric occurrences. He stood up to Coyote and wanted to make sure Coyote wouldn't hurt Annie. He clams up around multiple strangers, but it's not like he doesn't relax around them (think of Kat) once they're alone. And if anything, he was a tiny bit more relaxed around Annie before her shift as long as there was a goal the group, including Annie, shared or a problem they needed to solve as a group.

His reaction to Forest Annie was his reaction to a stranger. His reaction to Court Annie is his typical reaction toward his own daughter, whom he has a very complicated history with, and who he feels very uncomfortable around in confronting directly. Kind of like how you feel around someone who has caused you (or who you have caused) emotional trauma. One of my parents does this thing where if she wants to have a Serious Conversation with you, she coaxes you to go on an errand with her and then confronts you in the car to try to talk it out – there's nowhere to go. And for people with emotional processing difficulties like me, ooooof it's like the most anxiety-inducing experience, when you don't want to talk about your feelings. You feel cornered or trapped and there's nothing you can say unless it's either directly focused on the issue at hand (which is not fun if you don't have nice things to say or if it's an issue you have PTSD around) or unless you can find a way to deflect. I'm guessing this is what Tony is doing here, very badly. He felt cornered and he RAN.
He either is deliberately hiding something (poorly), or his feelings are way too intense to verbalize anything around her.

[mturtle7]

Nov 13, 2020 12:49:34 GMT ohthatone said:

Bonus page: where tony ends up without his shoes.

I'm having a LOT of fun coming up with possibilities for this (only the stupid ones, that is).

1) Shows up at some low-level Shadow Men hideout nearby, declares he's conducting a surprise inspection.

2) Knocks on James' door, when James answers it just stares at him silently for like 5 solid seconds as it finally occurs to him to wonder why the hell he came here, and then walk all the way back to his house with no explanation.

3) Go to a random class in progress (possibly at Foley, possibly not) and insist to everyone there that he's the new substitute teacher

4) Actually just walks around the house to the back door, hides in a closet for 2 hours, then tries to sneak back out and pretend he's just coming back from an errand

5) Happens to walk in a direction which takes him to the ocean. Walks along the shore until he finds an unattended boat. Breaks in and steal the boat. Sails off into the horizon. Ends up circumnavigating the entire Earth because it would just be too awkward to turn around or go in any other direction than the one he's already going in.

I CAN'T STOP PLEASE HELP

(in all seriousness, I figure he'd probably gravitate towards a safe place, like Kat's lab or maybe Donny's house? Honestly, either of those would probably be interesting to see, but also very serious which is why I'm coming up with lots of silly options instead)

[fia]

Nov 13, 2020 17:33:50 GMT mturtle7 said:

Nov 13, 2020 12:49:34 GMT ohthatone said:

Bonus page: where tony ends up without his shoes.

I'm having a LOT of fun coming up with possibilities for this (only the stupid ones, that is).

1) Shows up at some low-level Shadow Men hideout nearby, declares he's conducting a surprise inspection.

2) Knocks on James' door, when James answers it just stares at him silently for like 5 solid seconds as it finally occurs to him to wonder why the hell he came here, and then walk all the way back to his house with no explanation.

3) Go to a random class in progress (possibly at Foley, possibly not) and insist to everyone there that he's the new substitute teacher

4) Actually just walks around the house to the back door, hides in a closet for 2 hours, then tries to sneak back out and pretend he's just coming back from an errand

5) Happens to walk in a direction which takes him to the ocean. Walks along the shore until he finds an unattended boat. Breaks in and steal the boat. Sails off into the horizon. Ends up circumnavigating the entire Earth because it would just be too awkward to turn around or go in any other direction than the one he's already going in.

I CAN'T STOP PLEASE HELP

(in all seriousness, I figure he'd probably gravitate towards a safe place, like Kat's lab or maybe Donny's house? Honestly, either of those would probably be interesting to see, but also very serious which is why I'm coming up with lots of silly options instead)

6) Feeding Cityface or a seagull on the beach. People walk by looking confused.

7) Going to visit Jones. They mostly just stare across a table at each other for an hour or so, and then he leaves. Before he leaves, she hands him a pair of shoes she pulls out of a drawer, and he says, "Thank you."

8) Hangs out with the laser cows. Tries to hang out with the laser cows, but they reject him. He sits on a rock, next to Boxbot. Neither of them say anything.

9) Goes to visit Hyland to report about the weather. He seems alarmed that Tony's not wearing shoes, but none of the staff say anything. Tony leaves and walks home. On the way home he stops to buy new socks.

10) Tony gets a haircut. 

[Gemminie]

Nov 13, 2020 8:42:35 GMT wies said:

Dammit, Tony. Even rather leaving the damn house than to talk with her. (and on socks to boot) Poor Courtnie. But I guess there was some progress.

Interested in Renard speaking up. He has been in the background for a long time, so I hope he and the annies will talk more.

I know, right? He's apparently the #1 fan favorite character. There should be more Renard! I like Renard. (I don't remember whom I voted for, though.)

Nov 13, 2020 9:05:33 GMT blazingstar said:

I was rather hoping that, at the last minute, Tony would ask C!Annie, "Do you want to come with me?" But it seems like that was too much to ask. Baby steps. 

He's definitely panicking internally, though. First the "Um", then the "I think I...something", and now leaving the house mid-conversation and forgetting to put shoes on. This is the Quiet Person's Version of running the heck away from what scares you (in this case, C!Annie). ALL the social anxiety is being triggered today. 

Yes. For Tony, this is the equivalent of running screaming out the door as if all the devils of Hell were after you.

Nov 13, 2020 9:10:41 GMT blazingstar said:

Nov 11, 2020 20:18:18 GMT foxurus said:

Hot take: Something happened between Anthony and Court Annie over the six months (perhaps the argument about her makeup) that led to Anthony having an emotional breakthrough regarding his daughter. But because she was part of the argument which spurred the breakthrough, and because it'd be so obvious that it was the argument that changed things, he'd have to say, "I was wrong, you were right," which is immensely shameful and difficult for him to do. He's probably embarrassed that he even had the argument with her, and wishes to just forget about it. The important thing is: instead of being unable to talk to her because of his past actions, now he can't talk to her because of his actions in the past six months.

Enter Forest Annie, who doesn't have any memory of this argument. The weight is lifted. Now he can act upon that breakthrough he had with Court Annie, without acknowledging whatever caused it. And unfortunately, Forest Annie gets to reap the benefits of Court Annie's hard work.

Thanks, guys, now this theory is my favorite one so far.

Today's page lends a lot of weight to this theory! Or rather to the "there was emotional trauma while Forest Annie was away, likely involving Court Annie's insistence on wearing her makeup" family of related theories. I mean, Tony can still tell which Annie he's talking to. Her hair's short. And she acts slightly differently. But he's her/their father, so he can tell them apart.

Nov 13, 2020 14:26:33 GMT blahzor said:

she can quit it anytime. She just needs a little to get her through today. And maybe some more under the lips in the gums

I was just going to say that she's putting that makeup back on like it's an addiction. You beat me to it.

Nov 13, 2020 15:39:39 GMT ohthatone said:

So here's a question. We've seen annie use her make up as an emotional pacifier, something in her brain clearly needs this. Why is forest annie comfortable without it?

This is a very good question. I think we're on the right track about why Tony goes into Guarded Mode around Court Annie, but this is a totally separate question. Annie's worn makeup in the past to feel connected to her mother and as an emotional mask, sort of the thing she does when she goes into Guarded Mode. When she takes it off, she's going into Unguarded Mode. When Annie set off for the Forest to confront Loup, she wasn't wearing any makeup, nor was she wearing her mother's necklace. She was facing an uncertain future in a very mature way, leaving quite a lot behind. But does the lack of makeup mean she was in Unguarded Mode? I don't think so; I think rather that she was in a more mature state that left that distinction behind. But shortly thereafter, Loup rejected Court Annie and told her to go back, so she went back to the Court to live with her father. What must that have felt like? She was prepared to face whatever Ysengrin had become on behalf of the entire Court. Instead she was sent away, and it didn't happen. We've never seen exactly what Loup told her or how she reacted, nor have we seen what it was like for her to move in with her father, nor obviously the argument where she put her foot down about wearing makeup. But none of this happened to Forest Annie. She took a more mature stance and was able to follow through, going in to speak with Loup for what was in some sense six months – Forest Annie didn't experience six months of time, but in some way her hair did. The Ether is weird. But my point is that Forest Annie went forward, while Court Annie went backward. Forest Annie went onward into new experiences that changed her, on the momentum of all the trauma that had just happened, while Court Annie was turned back and went back, not just regressing to her earlier patterns but fighting to regress to them. Loup didn't help, sending her back as if she wasn't good enough; the Court didn't help, retreating from Loup and the Forest; and Tony didn't help either, fighting his daughter over what's for her a personal choice she makes for her own protection.

Nov 13, 2020 16:42:09 GMT fia said:

His reaction to Forest Annie was his reaction to a stranger. His reaction to Court Annie is his typical reaction toward his own daughter, whom he has a very complicated history with, and who he feels very uncomfortable around in confronting directly. Kind of like how you feel around someone who has caused you (or who you have caused) emotional trauma. One of my parents does this thing where if she wants to have a Serious Conversation with you, she coaxes you to go on an errand with her and then confronts you in the car to try to talk it out – there's nowhere to go. And for people with emotional processing difficulties like me, ooooof it's like the most anxiety-inducing experience, when you don't want to talk about your feelings. You feel cornered or trapped and there's nothing you can say unless it's either directly focused on the issue at hand (which is not fun if you don't have nice things to say or if it's an issue you have PTSD around) or unless you can find a way to deflect. I'm guessing this is what Tony is doing here, very badly. He felt cornered and he RAN.
He either is deliberately hiding something (poorly), or his feelings are way too intense to verbalize anything around her.

It's quite clear in my opinion that there are sharp distinctions between the two Annies and that despite the fact that they often go places together and speak in unison (possibly because they're mentally communicating via their Renard-based connection), they're two very different people now. You're right – one of them is someone Tony's confronted and had conflict with, while the other is a new person.

[quinnr]

It strikes me that the structure of the second to last panel on this page and the second to last panel on the previous page are both very similar. The camera is below the character, looking up at their face betraying some kind of emotion, but with some other object in focus. Not sure if it means anything significant, but I think it does a good job at highlighting the similarities in how Anthony and Annie are approaching the conflict.

[Gemminie]

Nov 13, 2020 20:21:59 GMT quinnr said:

It strikes me that the structure of the second to last panel on this page and the second to last panel on the previous page are both very similar. The camera is below the character, looking up at their face betraying some kind of emotion, but with some other object in focus. Not sure if it means anything significant, but I think it does a good job at highlighting the similarities in how Anthony and Annie are approaching the conflict.

I agree. They both put on their masks and disengage.

[blahzor]

Nov 13, 2020 14:58:34 GMT ctso74 said:

The big mystery to me is why he treats Frannie so differently. If Courtnie is bugged, I'd imagine Frannie would be as well, by now.
Perhaps, Courtnie her demanding to wear makeup was something more than she thinks.
Then again, maybe there isn't a reason. He may simply treat them differently, because he's getting "better", and Frannie lucked out. Feelings rarely follow rules and reason, with neurotypical, Schizoid, ASD, or other.

i forgot all about this. lately i don't remember anything Annie wise if it doesn't directly involve Kat, Smithy or George

[ohthatone]

Nov 13, 2020 14:58:34 GMT ctso74 said:

The big mystery to me is why he treats Frannie so differently. If Courtnie is bugged, I'd imagine Frannie would be as well, by now.
Perhaps, Courtnie her demanding to wear makeup was something more than she thinks.
Then again, maybe there isn't a reason. He may simply treat them differently, because he's getting "better", and Frannie lucked out. Feelings rarely follow rules and reason, with neurotypical, Schizoid, ASD, or other.

If the court can track people through the food there's no reason they couldn't bug her makeup, which could lead super private Tony to be nervous around her. But that doesnt explain the last few pages so iunno.

[ohthatone]

Nov 13, 2020 18:05:19 GMT fia said:

Nov 13, 2020 17:33:50 GMT mturtle7 said:

I'm having a LOT of fun coming up with possibilities for this (only the stupid ones, that is).

1) Shows up at some low-level Shadow Men hideout nearby, declares he's conducting a surprise inspection.

2) Knocks on James' door, when James answers it just stares at him silently for like 5 solid seconds as it finally occurs to him to wonder why the hell he came here, and then walk all the way back to his house with no explanation.

3) Go to a random class in progress (possibly at Foley, possibly not) and insist to everyone there that he's the new substitute teacher

4) Actually just walks around the house to the back door, hides in a closet for 2 hours, then tries to sneak back out and pretend he's just coming back from an errand

5) Happens to walk in a direction which takes him to the ocean. Walks along the shore until he finds an unattended boat. Breaks in and steal the boat. Sails off into the horizon. Ends up circumnavigating the entire Earth because it would just be too awkward to turn around or go in any other direction than the one he's already going in.

I CAN'T STOP PLEASE HELP

(in all seriousness, I figure he'd probably gravitate towards a safe place, like Kat's lab or maybe Donny's house? Honestly, either of those would probably be interesting to see, but also very serious which is why I'm coming up with lots of silly options instead)

6) Feeding Cityface or a seagull on the beach. People walk by looking confused.

7) Going to visit Jones. They mostly just stare across a table at each other for an hour or so, and then he leaves. Before he leaves, she hands him a pair of shoes she pulls out of a drawer, and he says, "Thank you."

8) Hangs out with the laser cows. Tries to hang out with the laser cows, but they reject him. He sits on a rock, next to Boxbot. Neither of them say anything.

9) Goes to visit Hyland to report about the weather. He seems alarmed that Tony's not wearing shoes, but none of the staff say anything. Tony leaves and walks home. On the way home he stops to buy new socks.

10) Tony gets a haircut. 

These are all magnificent.

[speedwell]

Folks, just a word about the debate about whether Tony is autistic or just has social anxiety of some form... we're not diagnosticians (unless we actually are, heh) and we may never even know in the end. It could be simply that Tom is drawing Tony as a personality and not a paradigm; a complex character, not a type.

A colleague who is also autistic passed me this link last night that really helped me get a better understanding of what sorts of things in what combinations constitute "autism" and what sorts of things are simply considered "things that some people have in common with autistic people". See what you think. If nothing else, at least we'll be better informed about these things in general, and understanding each other better is always a wonderful thing. <3

neuroclastic.com/2019/05/04/its-a-spectrum-doesnt-mean-what-you-think/

[foxurus]

Nov 14, 2020 10:20:07 GMT speedwell said:

Folks, just a word about the debate about whether Tony is autistic or just has social anxiety of some form... we're not diagnosticians (unless we actually are, heh) and we may never even know in the end. It could be simply that Tom is drawing Tony as a personality and not a paradigm; a complex character, not a type.

A colleague who is also autistic passed me this link last night that really helped me get a better understanding of what sorts of things in what combinations constitute "autism" and what sorts of things are simply considered "things that some people have in common with autistic people". See what you think. If nothing else, at least we'll be better informed about these things in general, and understanding each other better is always a wonderful thing. <3

neuroclastic.com/2019/05/04/its-a-spectrum-doesnt-mean-what-you-think/

Interesting article. I didn't know about Ido Kedar or Carly Fleischmann. Thanks for sharing it!

What frustrates me about autism, as a concept, is that if the symptoms of autism and their solutions can be so dramatically different, then I feel like it shouldn't all be called autism. There should be smaller, more specific categories. Or maybe just keep each symptom separate. Like, "I have a sensory processing disorder, I have difficulty starting or stopping activities, and I often need to do some sort of repetitive physical action to stay calm."

I struggle with all of the things on the spectrum that this person has made, to some degree. As far as I understand it, they're also symptoms of ADHD. Or in my case, maybe it's a combination of PTSD, anxiety, and, I dunno, a learning disability? The distinctions seem unhelpful to me. I have specific problems; focusing so much on bundling them all together and giving them a header doesn't help me solve them.

But I like being precise about things more than most people. Maybe "autistic" is just more comfortable for people to say, even if it doesn't tell the whole story, or leads people to incorrect assumptions. Which is fair enough, I suppose.

[Alkazar]

Nov 13, 2020 18:09:41 GMT Gemminie said:

This is a very good question. I think we're on the right track about why Tony goes into Guarded Mode around Court Annie, but this is a totally separate question. Annie's worn makeup in the past to feel connected to her mother and as an emotional mask, sort of the thing she does when she goes into Guarded Mode. When she takes it off, she's going into Unguarded Mode. When Annie set off for the Forest to confront Loup, she wasn't wearing any makeup, nor was she wearing her mother's necklace. She was facing an uncertain future in a very mature way, leaving quite a lot behind. But does the lack of makeup mean she was in Unguarded Mode? I don't think so; I think rather that she was in a more mature state that left that distinction behind. But shortly thereafter, Loup rejected Court Annie and told her to go back, so she went back to the Court to live with her father. What must that have felt like? She was prepared to face whatever Ysengrin had become on behalf of the entire Court. Instead she was sent away, and it didn't happen. We've never seen exactly what Loup told her or how she reacted, nor have we seen what it was like for her to move in with her father, nor obviously the argument where she put her foot down about wearing makeup. But none of this happened to Forest Annie. She took a more mature stance and was able to follow through, going in to speak with Loup for what was in some sense six months – Forest Annie didn't experience six months of time, but in some way her hair did. The Ether is weird. But my point is that Forest Annie went forward, while Court Annie went backward. Forest Annie went onward into new experiences that changed her, on the momentum of all the trauma that had just happened, while Court Annie was turned back and went back, not just regressing to her earlier patterns but fighting to regress to them. Loup didn't help, sending her back as if she wasn't good enough; the Court didn't help, retreating from Loup and the Forest; and Tony didn't help either, fighting his daughter over what's for her a personal choice she makes for her own protection.

That reminds me of the incident when Coyote rejected Annie as false. Now Loup rejected one version of her und kept the one that he needed. And in both cases Annies Father had immense influence on his daughter. I see a pattern here.