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Post by DonDueed on Nov 6, 2020 20:06:45 GMT
I think it's important to point out that at no time were we ever told that Tony either didn't have or was low in etheric talent. In fact, quite the opposite, as he was able to enter worlds, do psychic surgery, and project-manage a tech goddess. I think this is one more clue that he's a formidable etheric genius under wraps. Even if he wasn't a father who's had plenty of time to get to know his identical twins, he could just tell which Annie is which like he can tell the difference between red and blue. He's had to work hard to develop that instinct as well, if it was difficult in the first place. Remember that they technically belong to different worlds, too. A traveler-between-worlds might get a feel for that sort of thing. Well there are basically two possibilities, aren't there? Either he's discerning (consciously or not) a difference between the Annies by etheric means, or by ordinary means. By etheric means: He's got some etheric ability, possibly latent (he's not necessarily aware of how he does it), that can distinguish between the Annies via some criterion. (This doesn't imply that the difference between them is etheric in nature. It could be something purely conventional, but he's using some sort of etheric ability to detect it – perhaps there's an otherwise-invisible residue of makeup on her skin or something.) By ordinary means: He's just very good at noticing small differences. But we've now ruled out makeup and clothing color scheme as one of those differences. Perhaps he's still detecting her hair length (although Forest Annie could still have gotten a haircut – however, we haven't seen her try that, so perhaps that would have this same effect). What's the difference between the Annies, though? It's either etheric in nature or ordinary. Etheric: Perhaps Loup did something to one of the Annies when he sent her back, but not the other; maybe he sent her back with some sort of ethereal effect upon her. Perhaps he sent Court Annie back with some kind of invisible companion spirit that not even Renard can sense, causing Tony to subconsciously consider her not alone when he's with her. Perhaps Forest Annie is in some way six months younger, as she didn't experience six months' worth of time when she was with Loup. Perhaps (suggested by fia above) Court Annie has the potential to be split further, while Forest Annie doesn't, so Court Annie "feels" like more than one person to Tony. That kind of implies that you can't be split unless you have some ill-defined potential for splittability, though. Ordinary: Perhaps Court Annie has nigh-undetectable makeup residue, or perhaps it's her hair length. Or, perhaps it's not her makeup but rather something about her personality that makes her want to wear makeup that he's picking up on. After all, Forest Annie doesn't seem to want to wear makeup anymore. Perhaps we should be asking why. What was it about her visit with Loup in the Forest that changed her to the point where she didn't feel that wearing makeup was necessary anymore? Both of them visited Loup later on, but Court Annie still wears makeup. Annie's makeup has been addressed with a mask metaphor, having to do with hiding her emotions a bit like her father does, but perhaps spending a bunch of time in the Ether where no makeup would have any effect changed Forest Annie's outlook on hiding her emotions. Tony could be picking up on any of these things, or more than one. I love it when a story makes me care about its characters this much. Especially a character (Tony) whom I used to be very angry at. Maybe it's ordinary, but something that doesn't come through in a comic, like body language (such as a different way of walking) or even scent. But those seem unlikely if they're true doppelgangers.
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Post by shaihulud on Nov 6, 2020 20:25:44 GMT
Is it Zimmy who's 'behind it all'? Will this story turn out to be based on Ursula Leguin's "The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas"? I read that as " The Ones Who Walk Away From Oatmeals" :/ This is, perhaps, the even greater ethical question.
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etera
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Post by etera on Nov 6, 2020 20:53:06 GMT
No, the point of that story is that if a utopia requires suffering to maintain it, even if it's just one individual suffering, it's not really a utopia and it's not worth preserving. It makes no claims that a utopia must require suffering. That interpretation of tvtropes is also a valid one, though. There are remarks in the story about how it is so difficult to believe in an utopia without suffering. There is even a point where the narrator outright sighs at the reader's assumed disbelief, and then shows the suffering almost like a concession to pull the reader over the line. Not saying your interpretation is wrong, but that is also a way you can look at Le Guin's story. Alternatively it's not talking about the necessity of anything for utopia. It's just presenting a thought experiment, where the deal is strictly better than the one we have in our own society. We don't life in a utopia. Our society rests on the suffering of considerably more than a single child. We don't walk away.
(Alternatively for a response you can look at N. K. Jemison's The Ones who Stay and Fight. Le Guin is nice about the reader disbelieving in a utopia without suffering. Jemison is aggressive about it.)
Regardless, the court preexisted Zimmy, and Jeanne's imprisonment as well. And a story where there *has* to be extreme suffering which is totally unavoidable as doesn't seem like the kind of story that Tom is trying to tell. Growing pains and mistakes? Sure. Misery for the sake of it in some abstract sense? Not so much.
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Post by zaratustra on Nov 6, 2020 21:01:00 GMT
well i'm glad i'm reading this peaceful chapter that will certainly not take extremely disturbing breaks every so often
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Post by bedinsis on Nov 6, 2020 21:06:06 GMT
I honestly would prefer if there was some mundane/non-supernatural explanation for why Tony is treating the Annies differently.
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Post by warrl on Nov 6, 2020 22:03:59 GMT
if they're true doppelgangers. Technically, Court Annie is six months older than Forest Annie. At an age where that quite plausibly makes a detectable difference in personality. Heck, there could - particularly at that age - be physical differences or odor differences. Each of them has had experiences - one day with Loup for Forest Annie, six months with who-knows-what oddities in the Court for Court Annie - that the other did not share. That could make a difference for a long time.
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Post by todd on Nov 7, 2020 0:01:44 GMT
I'll confess I feel more tempted to compare the Court to Belbury in "That Hideous Strength" by C. S. Lewis - though it's much more subtle. Both the Court and N.I.C.E. are extremely nebulous, both are pursuing a goal that seems scientific but is really closer to science and magic combined, both could be described as "man's attempt to become God", and both are willing to dismiss morality to get what they want. The main difference is that the Court seems more misguided than malevolent (most of its wrong-doing stems from fear of Gilltie Wood); I certainly cannot imagine even the worst members of the Court being out for world domination, as N.I.C.E. was.
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Post by Runningflame on Nov 7, 2020 0:44:20 GMT
So we're just going to pretend the previous page never happened, huh, Tom, you big jerkface?
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Post by Runningflame on Nov 7, 2020 0:48:36 GMT
Ordinary: Perhaps Court Annie has nigh-undetectable makeup residue Maybe it's ordinary, but something that doesn't come through in a comic, like body language (such as a different way of walking) or even scent. But those seem unlikely if they're true doppelgangers. Could be the scent of the makeup residue. But yeah, my guesses are either he noticed the hair, it's something etheric, or it's something in Court Annie's demeanor.
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Post by netherdan on Nov 7, 2020 1:29:29 GMT
Now it's a good time to sit down and ask "is there anything in me that makes you uncomfortable?", you know, since helping Kat showed them that asking the adults for help/guidance/opinions isn't that big of a deal, that would show some maturity "A direct approach never works with Tony."
Hm.
Maybe Donald is the right person to ask about this. Of course, the right thing is to first ask Tony directly. But if it doesn't work (who knows if Tony himself even has an idea what the problem is), Donald might be able to help.
I forgot about that! Tony might give an evasive answer or just go back to work while biting his tongue or something like that. But yeah, Donald would be ideal and it would even mirror Kat asking Anja for help. Alternatively it could be the real green Annie asking Tony (instead of disguised blue Annie), or even both scenarios at once
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Post by saardvark on Nov 7, 2020 3:03:18 GMT
Well there are basically two possibilities, aren't there? Either he's discerning (consciously or not) a difference between the Annies by etheric means, or by ordinary means. By etheric means: He's got some etheric ability, possibly latent (he's not necessarily aware of how he does it), that can distinguish between the Annies via some criterion. (This doesn't imply that the difference between them is etheric in nature. It could be something purely conventional, but he's using some sort of etheric ability to detect it – perhaps there's an otherwise-invisible residue of makeup on her skin or something.) By ordinary means: He's just very good at noticing small differences. But we've now ruled out makeup and clothing color scheme as one of those differences. Perhaps he's still detecting her hair length (although Forest Annie could still have gotten a haircut – however, we haven't seen her try that, so perhaps that would have this same effect). What's the difference between the Annies, though? It's either etheric in nature or ordinary. Etheric: Perhaps Loup did something to one of the Annies when he sent her back, but not the other; maybe he sent her back with some sort of ethereal effect upon her. Perhaps he sent Court Annie back with some kind of invisible companion spirit that not even Renard can sense, causing Tony to subconsciously consider her not alone when he's with her. Perhaps Forest Annie is in some way six months younger, as she didn't experience six months' worth of time when she was with Loup. Perhaps (suggested by fia above) Court Annie has the potential to be split further, while Forest Annie doesn't, so Court Annie "feels" like more than one person to Tony. That kind of implies that you can't be split unless you have some ill-defined potential for splittability, though. As to etheric differences, there is also that, for some reason, Court Annie's fire elemental may be more fragmentary... see panel 4 www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=2069 could be due to the different experiences/training/history Court Annie and her elemental have had. Maybe Tony can sense this?
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novia
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Post by novia on Nov 7, 2020 3:24:03 GMT
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Post by wies on Nov 7, 2020 5:38:51 GMT
That interpretation of tvtropes is also a valid one, though. There are remarks in the story about how it is so difficult to believe in an utopia without suffering. There is even a point where the narrator outright sighs at the reader's assumed disbelief, and then shows the suffering almost like a concession to pull the reader over the line. Not saying your interpretation is wrong, but that is also a way you can look at Le Guin's story. Alternatively it's not talking about the necessity of anything for utopia. It's just presenting a thought experiment, where the deal is strictly better than the one we have in our own society. We don't life in a utopia. Our society rests on the suffering of considerably more than a single child. We don't walk away.
(Alternatively for a response you can look at N. K. Jemison's The Ones who Stay and Fight. Le Guin is nice about the reader disbelieving in a utopia without suffering. Jemison is aggressive about it.)
Good point, and thanks for the recommendation. I've been planning to read something of Jemison.
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Post by blahzor on Nov 7, 2020 7:33:28 GMT
Didn't even know who was in those panels. Thought it was Steadman
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Post by blahzor on Nov 7, 2020 7:40:11 GMT
Oh wow, I never even considered that he could have etheric talent; i guess I just assumed that his talent for science/technology ruled it out... I wonder if his talent for both isn't part of the reason the court wanted him back so bad. But is there anyone at the Court who doesn't have etheric talent? It almost seems like it's a requirement to be there. I can't think of any character who doesn't have at least some unusual ability, and unless there are different flavors of supernatural powers in the GCverse, that means an etheric talent.
Maybe Becky Ground doesn't have any...
Donny and I don't think Tony has any either. He'd obviously know it exist in his research of trying to get Surma back
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Post by Per on Nov 7, 2020 11:44:49 GMT
Tony clearly wasn't able to sense Annie eavesdropping with the blinker stone in Eavesdropping With the Blinker Stone Annie and the Fire, unless he was, and is an amazing actor.
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Post by blahzor on Nov 7, 2020 17:42:57 GMT
Tony clearly wasn't able to sense Annie eavesdropping with the blinker stone in Eavesdropping With the Blinker Stone Annie and the Fire, unless he was, and is an amazing actor. 3 things we know about Tony 1) amazing actor 2) in spice girl cover band 3) is actually a ant
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etera
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Post by etera on Nov 8, 2020 7:39:52 GMT
Alternatively it's not talking about the necessity of anything for utopia. It's just presenting a thought experiment, where the deal is strictly better than the one we have in our own society. We don't life in a utopia. Our society rests on the suffering of considerably more than a single child. We don't walk away.
(Alternatively for a response you can look at N. K. Jemison's The Ones who Stay and Fight. Le Guin is nice about the reader disbelieving in a utopia without suffering. Jemison is aggressive about it.)
Good point, and thanks for the recommendation. I've been planning to read something of Jemison. I haven't read any of the rest of her stuff, but How Long 'Till Black Future Month is actually awesome. I usually don't like short story collections at all, but I'm halfway through and there's yet to be a dud.
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Post by speedwell on Nov 8, 2020 10:16:42 GMT
But is there anyone at the Court who doesn't have etheric talent? It almost seems like it's a requirement to be there. I can't think of any character who doesn't have at least some unusual ability, and unless there are different flavors of supernatural powers in the GCverse, that means an etheric talent.
Maybe Becky Ground doesn't have any...
Donny and I don't think Tony has any either. He'd obviously know it exist in his research of trying to get Surma back Um, Tony is a designer and user of etheric technology in combination with regular (you cannot call it "ordinary") technology, and let me remind you he created armour of the gods that the goddess in question still uses today. That is not someone who has neither etheric talent nor ability. I did not, for those of you who responded earlier, intend to leave open the possibility that Tony has etheric "talent" but no etheric "ability". We would be unaware he had talent if it weren't for the fact that we have seen him exhibit etheric abilities.
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Post by Runningflame on Nov 8, 2020 15:53:00 GMT
Donny and I don't think Tony has any either. He'd obviously know it exist in his research of trying to get Surma back Um, Tony is a designer and user of etheric technology in combination with regular (you cannot call it "ordinary") technology, and let me remind you he created armour of the gods that the goddess in question still uses today. That is not someone who has neither etheric talent nor ability. You mean Donald, right? (I was puzzled for a bit.)
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Post by pyradonis on Nov 8, 2020 20:26:06 GMT
Tony clearly wasn't able to sense Annie eavesdropping with the blinker stone in Eavesdropping With the Blinker Stone Annie and the Fire, unless he was, and is an amazing actor. Or just amazingly drunk. But in all seriousness, since Tony cannot be himself when he is around more than one person, it stands to reason that he was not aware of Annie at this moment. Donny and I don't think Tony has any either. He'd obviously know it exist in his research of trying to get Surma back Um, Tony is a designer and user of etheric technology in combination with regular (you cannot call it "ordinary") technology, and let me remind you he created armour of the gods that the goddess in question still uses today. That is not someone who has neither etheric talent nor ability. Assuming you meant to say "Donny", he performs seemingly magic feats, but as far as we know all of them are possible only due to Anja's computer. As far as I understand it, Anja created an interface that one does not need any Etheric sense to use for, and of course a smart guy like Donald is abe to program his own magic spells on that thing. Was i the first to guess that it's antimony's necklace? If spirit of dead mom (or whatever) is in in the room with you, there's a total greater than 1 other person, so he goes all emotionally mute The Annies are sharing the necklace since their dungeon crawl, so if that were the reason they would have already noticed it. if they're true doppelgangers. Technically, Court Annie is six months older than Forest Annie. At an age where that quite plausibly makes a detectable difference in personality. Heck, there could - particularly at that age - be physical differences or odor differences. Each of them has had experiences - one day with Loup for Forest Annie, six months with who-knows-what oddities in the Court for Court Annie - that the other did not share. That could make a difference for a long time. This. No one is exactly the same person they were six months ago, neither physically nor personality-wise. Especially not during one's teenage years.
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Post by jda on Nov 8, 2020 20:51:25 GMT
Next step, Both Annies cut their hair to the same length (of course shorter than actual Courtney's), and both wear sacks of potatoes
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Post by Runningflame on Nov 8, 2020 23:23:33 GMT
Next step, Both Annies cut their hair to the same length (of course shorter than actual Courtney's), and both wear sacks of potatoes Sounds like it would be pretty heavy to walk around with all those potatoes on you
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Post by jda on Nov 9, 2020 7:21:45 GMT
Next step, Both Annies cut their hair to the same length (of course shorter than actual Courtney's), and both wear sacks of potatoes Sounds like it would be pretty heavy to walk around with all those potatoes on you That's why they'd wear only the sacks. Of potatoes.
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Post by migrantworker on Nov 9, 2020 10:16:36 GMT
Sounds like it would be pretty heavy to walk around with all those potatoes on you That's why they'd wear only the sacks. Of potatoes. "Sacks of potatoes. Just like real sacks. Only with potatoes."
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