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Post by jda on Oct 2, 2020 16:06:08 GMT
Yeah, I see that the band at Kat's feet narrates the great Green Elves Exodus fleeing Coyote's domain (not yet Loup's) to enter the Court, where the robot bodies are aligned, keeping the barrier in place. Also, I see the last symbol as to how the robots are going organic-way.
I keep thinking that ALL the comic has been the narrative of an alchemical process, disguised as a coming-of-age story.
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Post by seedmagnesium on Oct 2, 2020 16:35:06 GMT
Some analysis (haven't read anything else in the thread to avoid influencing me, sorry if any of this is duplicative):
* This is the first landscape treatise, likely because of the need to fit two Annies. * Courtney and Fannie are both wearing the Fire Spike crown, suggesting that indeed Loup was able to duplicate the fire essence that previously led to Surma's death. Triangles point inward to the other Annie (this is one the diamond halo thing; Kat's is circular). Both Annies have the hair clip. * Previously the treatises have focused on the opposition of the Court and Forest. Now they are together in the right column behind Annies' heads (though contrasting in day and night). The corresponding opposite column are suns, perpetual day, similar to the Flammarion engraving treatise. * Annie knew about the Psychopomps before she came to the court and forest, and so she has her feet rooted in the clouds. Kat grew up in the court and is only now reaching into the etheric realm. * Let's talk about the hands. There's a lot of alchemical symbols around them that I don't think have any particular meaning. The positioning of the hands might reference The Creation of Adam. Annies' inner hands hold the water and goose bone that they have been tasked with retrieving. The outer hands hold the tooth-sword and... some other rune or block from Coyote? * Kat's left hand is shackled and holds the arrow. Is she bound by the arrow? By the contract made with the Saslamel? Her right hand holds two keys. Is this because she freed two spirits from the arrow, or because there are two Annies? * The fingerprint moon can be seen in the top left. Coyote is in the bottom right. * On the right we have a tree, on the left we have... some kind of The Sword Interval gold eye metal? * Rey and Ys and placed as opposites on the right, associated with Court and Forest. The shadow man is on the Court side; who is the white figure?
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Post by wies on Oct 2, 2020 16:44:46 GMT
Yeah, it is interesting the Court and the Forest aren't on the opposite side in this treatise.
EDIT: also, the symbols on both the Annies' crowns differ, but no idea what they might mean.
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Post by spritznar on Oct 2, 2020 19:06:57 GMT
how is it that i like each treatise better than the last?
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Post by spritznar on Oct 2, 2020 19:14:15 GMT
Yeah, it is interesting the Court and the Forest aren't on the opposite side in this treatise. EDIT: also, the symbols on both the Annies' crowns differ, but no idea what they might mean. there are some elements of court on top and forest on the bottom, aligning with court annie and forrest annie. so if it were turned on it’s side so annie’s are upright...
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Post by Gemminie on Oct 2, 2020 19:39:17 GMT
My reading of the treatise: in the deep background we have constellations, the Earth, the Moon, and some other planet (Mars?). Layered on top of that are two worlds (perhaps the Ether and the physical world, as wies suggests) in which the Annies and Kat stand. We see both above and below the "ground" in each world. Above ground in the Ether: some very solar and fiery imagery, likely related to the Annies' fire elemental nature. Below ground in the Ether, we see Renard chasing a shadow person and Ysengrin chasing a human. Above ground in the physical world: the Forest and the Court. Below ground: Coyote and chaos, humans, and robots. Then we have the frames behind Kat and the Annies' heads. Kat's frame is circular, while the Annies' frames are diamonds, each with a triangle pointing like an arrow at the other Annie's diamond. Behind Kat's head is the Tic-Toc, and near it, the border of the left-hand band is the Thousand Eyes. The Annies wear identical golden crowns, and the border of the right-hand band is a tree with its roots in Coyote and chaos and its branches growing into the Court. In her right hand Court Annie holds Coyote's dagger, the hexagram near it. Alchemically the hexagram represents either the balance between fire and water or the fifth element, quintessence. In her left hand, Court Annie holds Coyote's lake water, near where Kat is holding Diego's arrow in her left hand, and surrounding these are the alchemical symbols for lead, salt, and I believe brick dust (used for protection). Kat's left hand is shackled to the Ether band, perhaps meaning that whether she knows/likes it or not, her physical-world endeavors are having a very real effect upon the Ether, which are in turn affecting the physical world in ways she may find it hard to understand or predict. In Kat's right hand she holds a pair of black keys, near Forest Annie's right hand, which holds Coyote's goose bone. Around these objects are more alchemical symbols: the symbols for fire and water, along with the symbol for lead (the astrological symbol for the planet Saturn) and the symbol for iron (the planet Mars). In Forest Annie's left hand she holds the "Broken Man" emblem, first used in chapter 54 as a symbol for Tony, her father (who oddly finds himself at ease around Forest Annie but not around Court Annie). Around this emblem are three more alchemical symbols: copper (the planet Venus), mercury (also the planet), and sulfur. There is a wide variety of meanings that alchemists assigned to their elements and substances. Paracelsus considered mercury, salt, and sulfur to be the prime three, the "tria prima," representing the mind, body, and soul. We see here all of the seven planetary metals other than gold and silver (the Sun and Moon), although we do see the Sun and the Moon depicted elsewhere in the treatise, just not as alchemical symbols. But the symbols for mercury, copper, iron, tin, and lead all appear. Then there's the square, which by itself I think means brick dust, but I'm not sure. Notably absent are the symbols for bismuth and antimony, as well as the sign of the creator that the robots inscribed on Kat's workshop. (Edit: Near the lake water and Diego's arrow is a symbol that I at first stated was the alchemical symbol for lead, before later deciding it was the symbol for tin. Although louisxiv believes it to be the symbol for zinc, that symbol has a flourish on its "tail" that this doesn't have. I believe this to be the symbol for tin, as it completes the set of planetary metals. The lead symbol also appears, but lower down.)
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Post by todd on Oct 3, 2020 0:19:55 GMT
Yeah, it is interesting the Court and the Forest aren't on the opposite side in this treatise. Maybe because they're both facing a problem from Loup?
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Post by wies on Oct 3, 2020 2:03:54 GMT
I am surprised everyone talks about a shadow and a human in the left "ground". I assumed these were Shadow and Robot. But it is indeed rather vague. Yeah, it is interesting the Court and the Forest aren't on the opposite side in this treatise. Maybe because they're both facing a problem from Loup? Could be, or from Coyote. His plans sure seem to be entangled with the foundation both. Hmm, you know what, I think that is Loup's trees in the court being split by the shield the robots are throwing over the court.
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Post by jda on Oct 3, 2020 5:59:24 GMT
Of course, this treatise reminds me of this page, first panel specially. And it tells me that, while the comic started mostly as Annie's role as being half court/half forest, even represented in her parents (EthericElemental+ EscepticScienceMan), the Louppening and divide on Forest and Court Annies leaves KAT as THE (future?)mediator between both realities.
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Post by louisxiv on Oct 3, 2020 12:46:16 GMT
Zooming in, I see the Z-like alchemical symbol is not the Z with an overlaid 7 on the base for Lead or the Court Protector, but Z with a tick on the base, which is Zinc.
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yinglung
Full Member
It's only a tatter of mime.
Posts: 190
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Post by yinglung on Oct 3, 2020 13:42:20 GMT
Not sure how relevant it is, but the alchemy symbols form a sort of inverted kabbalistic tree of life.
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Post by fourleaftree on Oct 3, 2020 19:34:40 GMT
Seeing the treatise page (which is, indeed, wonderful) made me realize something: Annie’s shift is basically some parts of her personality were left at the forest edge in one part of her and the more forest oriented parts joined her into the forest. This is why the original Annie does not exist anymore, her personality in both the Annies is different from the original, although the memories and physiology and identity as a fire elemental stayed the same. This is why the court annie seems a little bit more rebellious and outspoken and the forest annie is more calm and reasonable. So both these Annies were basically born when they went to Gillitie to meet Loup. That’s where their timeline began. They’re not from a different dimension, they’re different people compared to their original version because they accentuate different parts of her personality. Or so I think/theorize. If this has been written down a million times in this forum already, I apologize and would be happy to be referred to the other posts.
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Post by fourleaftree on Oct 3, 2020 19:46:02 GMT
The Annies stand in the ether, Kat in the material world. Also intrigued that all the things the Annie's bear are parts of the coyote, except for the thing in Forest Annie's left hand. That looks like Tony's totem. Potent, then, that the Tic Toc is now in the ether.
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Post by DonDueed on Oct 3, 2020 19:56:09 GMT
Anybody have any thoughts about the rod-like item tucked into Kat's half-apron? I can't make out enough detail to identify it.
Edit: on second look it seems to be some sort of blacksmith's pliers. I found pictures of a similar tool described as pin-tongs.
I suspect it symbolizes Kat's ability to forge a new form of life.
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Post by arf on Oct 4, 2020 7:33:52 GMT
Anybody have any thoughts about the rod-like item tucked into Kat's half-apron? I can't make out enough detail to identify it. Edit: on second look it seems to be some sort of blacksmith's pliers. I found pictures of a similar tool described as pin-tongs.
I suspect it symbolizes Kat's ability to forge a new form of life.
I think it is a set of compass measuring tools.
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heranje
Full Member
Oh super wow!
Posts: 175
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Post by heranje on Oct 4, 2020 8:41:50 GMT
A couple things: In the ground band showing the exodus of the forest elves to the forest, Coyote is tangled in with the roots - Coyote /is/ the forest. The ground that the elves are walking on is Coyote's roots. On the Court side of the same band, roots from the forest reach up into the Court, at the elves' destination. Could be both a reference to the events of the book, and a suggestion that the elves going to the Court is part of some larger plan.
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Post by Refugee on Oct 4, 2020 13:54:56 GMT
Anybody have any thoughts about the rod-like item tucked into Kat's half-apron? I can't make out enough detail to identify it. Edit: on second look it seems to be some sort of blacksmith's pliers. I found pictures of a similar tool described as pin-tongs.
I suspect it symbolizes Kat's ability to forge a new form of life.
They are indeed blacksmith tongs. I also note that while Kat is handcuffed, she can move freely along the rail. She is constrained, but not immobilized. (One of Ian M. Banks non-Culture novels features a monastery where the monks and even visitors are constrained by a similar arrangement.)
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Post by louisxiv on Oct 4, 2020 22:43:37 GMT
Kat's clothing has a very 18th century craftsperson vibe: undershirt and sleeveless jerkin, the leather apron, long breeches tied just above the knee, knee stockings.
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Post by mturtle7 on Oct 5, 2020 2:01:41 GMT
Seeing the treatise page (which is, indeed, wonderful) made me realize something: Annie’s shift is basically some parts of her personality were left at the forest edge in one part of her and the more forest oriented parts joined her into the forest. This is why the original Annie does not exist anymore, her personality in both the Annies is different from the original, although the memories and physiology and identity as a fire elemental stayed the same. This is why the court annie seems a little bit more rebellious and outspoken and the forest annie is more calm and reasonable. So both these Annies were basically born when they went to Gillitie to meet Loup. That’s where their timeline began. They’re not from a different dimension, they’re different people compared to their original version because they accentuate different parts of her personality. Or so I think/theorize. If this has been written down a million times in this forum already, I apologize and would be happy to be referred to the other posts. You know, I don't think anyone has theorized that before, even in the Wildspec thread! I'm shocked, because it seems like such a simple explanation for Annie's whole 'situation', I'd think someone would have thought of it before (by the way, even if it had been said before, you really don't need to apologize; another independent thinker reaching the same conclusions is always welcome on this forum).
However, I don't THINK it really matches up to what we know. It explains a lot of things really well, and it took me a while to figure out what felt wrong about it, and then I remembered: " you have been shifted out of your timeline and brought here". Not just "shifted" in general, not a new timeline beginning, but very unambiguously a shift away from an already-existing alternate timeline and into this one they are both currently in. Sorry, but I'm not convinced that works with your theory.
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Post by pyradonis on Oct 5, 2020 9:09:39 GMT
I honestly am underwhelmed by this treatise. It already depicts things we've already seen before, only at a greater distance and with less intimacy. And more stylized. Uh, all the past treatises mainly depicted themes, objects and characters from the book they closed. I am surprised everyone talks about a shadow and a human in the left "ground". I assumed these were Shadow and Robot. But it is indeed rather vague.[ I talked about a light grey creature. An Anti-Shadow Man?
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Post by blahzor on Oct 5, 2020 9:21:19 GMT
I am surprised everyone talks about a shadow and a human in the left "ground". I assumed these were Shadow and Robot. But it is indeed rather vague. Upon thinking of it. It should be Robot as this volume did depict him coming from the forest again and the grey person is on the forest side
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Post by homomculus on Oct 5, 2020 9:53:22 GMT
The Annies stand in the ether, Kat in the material world. But Kat is shackled to the ether, albeit only the very edge of it. Which could be touching on the undercurrent of the latter parts of this book where she can't escape from the fact she's doing "impossible" things.
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Post by Sauzels on Oct 5, 2020 11:18:54 GMT
I'm certain the creature in the lower right is Loup, not Coyote. Coyote never had a triangle on his forehead nor a wood motif (having given that to Ysengrin before the events of the comic), and the branches represent Loup's underground root attack on the Court, which was first brought up near the beginning of this book. The fact that the roots are going through whatever the blue-white line is seems significant, but I can't think of what the line is. My best guess is the mind's ocean, which doesn't seem relevant to the root attack though.
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Post by fourleaftree on Oct 5, 2020 12:12:48 GMT
Seeing the treatise page (which is, indeed, wonderful) made me realize something: Annie’s shift is basically some parts of her personality were left at the forest edge in one part of her and the more forest oriented parts joined her into the forest. This is why the original Annie does not exist anymore, her personality in both the Annies is different from the original, although the memories and physiology and identity as a fire elemental stayed the same. This is why the court annie seems a little bit more rebellious and outspoken and the forest annie is more calm and reasonable. So both these Annies were basically born when they went to Gillitie to meet Loup. That’s where their timeline began. They’re not from a different dimension, they’re different people compared to their original version because they accentuate different parts of her personality. Or so I think/theorize. If this has been written down a million times in this forum already, I apologize and would be happy to be referred to the other posts. You know, I don't think anyone has theorized that before, even in the Wildspec thread! I'm shocked, because it seems like such a simple explanation for Annie's whole 'situation', I'd think someone would have thought of it before (by the way, even if it had been said before, you really don't need to apologize; another independent thinker reaching the same conclusions is always welcome on this forum).
However, I don't THINK it really matches up to what we know. It explains a lot of things really well, and it took me a while to figure out what felt wrong about it, and then I remembered: " you have been shifted out of your timeline and brought here". Not just "shifted" in general, not a new timeline beginning, but very unambiguously a shift away from an already-existing alternate timeline and into this one they are both currently in. Sorry, but I'm not convinced that works with your theory. Why thank you! For the compliment and the gentle, well-argumented let-down . I understand what you mean. I’ll brood some more then. But we all know, until Tom decides he wants us in the know, we won’t be in the know. ... I’m still holding on to the angle a little longer, though. It might be that the time line they meant was the one where Forest Annie was stuck in Loup time when she spoke to him in the frozen Gillitie Forest. [edit] oh wait, upon reread, that does not seem to hold sway, either. [/edit]
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Post by Gemminie on Oct 5, 2020 16:55:30 GMT
Seeing the treatise page (which is, indeed, wonderful) made me realize something: Annie’s shift is basically some parts of her personality were left at the forest edge in one part of her and the more forest oriented parts joined her into the forest. This is why the original Annie does not exist anymore, her personality in both the Annies is different from the original, although the memories and physiology and identity as a fire elemental stayed the same. This is why the court annie seems a little bit more rebellious and outspoken and the forest annie is more calm and reasonable. So both these Annies were basically born when they went to Gillitie to meet Loup. That’s where their timeline began. They’re not from a different dimension, they’re different people compared to their original version because they accentuate different parts of her personality. Or so I think/theorize. If this has been written down a million times in this forum already, I apologize and would be happy to be referred to the other posts. This is interesting. If this is true, there's a parallel here. Two separate beings, Coyote and Ysengrin, combined to form a new being, Loup, who is different from the two who went before. Loup is less than the sum of his parts: Loup is unable to sustain the Forest as Coyote did, and he's trying to retrieve missing parts of himself. One being, Annie, was split into two separate beings, who are each different from the one who came before. Together, Court Annie and Forest Annie are more powerful than the original Annie (the two of them working together could defeat an ashray), though I can't see how the original Annie was trying to retrieve any missing parts of herself.
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Post by Gulby on Oct 5, 2020 17:29:17 GMT
Kat's clothing has a very 18th century craftsperson vibe: undershirt and sleeveless jerkin, the leather apron, long breeches tied just above the knee, knee stockings. I was absolutely sure I had seen this outfit somewhere before, and on Diego, but when I looked for it in the Archives, that wasn't really significant. He wore something quite similar in the video of the tiny camera robot that recorded the story of Jeanne's trapping, but it's not enough to be sure.
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Post by saardvark on Oct 6, 2020 11:42:53 GMT
I'm certain the creature in the lower right is Loup, not Coyote. Coyote never had a triangle on his forehead nor a wood motif (having given that to Ysengrin before the events of the comic), and the branches represent Loup's underground root attack on the Court, which was first brought up near the beginning of this book. The fact that the roots are going through whatever the blue-white line is seems significant, but I can't think of what the line is. My best guess is the mind's ocean, which doesn't seem relevant to the root attack though. the roots are penetrating through the line to burrow into the Court from below... so the blue white line is maybe the Anja-esque shield that the roots are getting around?
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Post by arf on Oct 6, 2020 12:47:51 GMT
Kat's clothing has a very 18th century craftsperson vibe: undershirt and sleeveless jerkin, the leather apron, long breeches tied just above the knee, knee stockings. I was absolutely sure I had seen this outfit somewhere before, and on Diego, but when I looked for it in the Archives, that wasn't really significant. He wore something quite similar in the video of the tiny camera robot that recorded the story of Jeanne's trapping, but it's not enough to be sure. It's possible (style would have been close to Diego's time). You could just be recalling Kat's last outing in the same gear.
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Post by blahzor on Oct 6, 2020 13:18:09 GMT
Kat is in the spot the divide from the forest and court was
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Post by fia on Oct 6, 2020 16:35:05 GMT
I know this seems random, but I keep thinking about the crowns each of the Annies are wearing. Forest Annie has a crown with red in the front, and Court Annie has a crown with a red tip to her right. I'm starting to suspect that there will be a third (and possibly a fourth) Annie. First off, alchemy generally requires ( see the Mutus Liber) dividing and then concentrating a substance through repetition of a chemical process. And according to ancient alchemy, Gold was made of four elements together. So far the Annies might represent two? Are we missing two more? Is Kat a third one? Or is she the alchemist, not an element herself? I keep going back to the Mutus Liber because GC is full of the images in it: pairing, groups of four, alchemical elements, phrases from Mutus Liber in the Treatises, the multiple birds, the angels, the ladder, even the tree. Kat is the alchemist, and Annie has been her assistant, but in Tom's work we've seen her be the thing that both brings others together but also gets transformed and split herself. But there's also Aurora consurgens, which has a lot of birds, and even a bird sitting on the head of another. And the Rosary of the Philosophers, which has the moon and sun imagery, the hermaphrodite, and even a green lion devouring the Sun (Ysengrin/Coyote, anyone?) as a metaphor for a process that produces a "seed" (the Seed Bismuth? ) A plausible narrative interpretation in alchemical terms: Annie's mom is the Moon, plus spirit, and Annie's dad the Sun, plus body, together they procreate to produce and transmit their energy to Annie, who is a new being. With this matter you can then go on to perform some important alchemical operations, which involve purifying this substance (separation followed by reunion and then concentration –– but this must happen twice, once for the moon elements, once for the sun elements. Arguably Annie has had one separation from herself with Annie and the Fire, and perhaps her being split into two of herself now is the second, but it may be that they need to split once again).
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