[2316] It's okay, Kat!

[madjack]

Kat, you might have years to figure this out.

[artezzatrigger]

Kat: "No Annies get left behind!"

[arf]

Hmm... there were what? Six birds? Does that mean the loop goes six times before the final bird gets broken?
Does that mean, in another Universe, there are *six* Annies trying to help Kat answer this question before it fails?
... and they were joking about 4 Annies!
(I feel Coyote's scheme has something to do with resolving this. It would explain why Loup might agree it to being an excellent plan worth dying for.)

[imaginaryfriend]

No double hug, just a one-handed shoulder grab from only one Antimony? Sheesh.

Also: Courtnie wearing a "thumb-hole top" jacket confirmed. Sheesh².

[Kuraimizu]

Jun 10, 2020 7:35:44 GMT arf said:

Hmm... there were what? Six birds? Does that mean the loop goes six times before the final bird gets broken?
Does that mean, in another Universe, there are *six* Annies trying to help Kat answer this question before it fails?
... and they were joking about 4 Annies!
(I feel Coyote's scheme has something to do with resolving this. It would explain why Loup might agree it to being an excellent plan worth dying for.)

Pretty sure the Six tic-tocs mean that time has looped six times
or Kat made extras, based on what annie told her.
the question is which actually happened?

[rafk]

Nobody is ever to tell Kat about Roko's basilisk on pain of death.

[gideonwells]

With Kat being so distraught I can see her overlooking the easy solution. Pay it forward. She has a lifetime to solve the time travel issue and to send some Tic-tocs back. Either time is a loop and she'd be saving her Annie or she'd be helping a random Kat save that Kat's Annie like a random Kat helped this Kat save hers.

[ctso74]

Jun 10, 2020 7:35:44 GMT arf said:

(I feel Coyote's scheme has something to do with resolving this. It would explain why Loup might agree it to being an excellent plan worth dying for.)

I was wondering that, too. Could Kat end up combining timelines and "selves"? If Coyote is still alive in one timeline, and Loup and he are somehow combined, then Coyote would recall what it's like to die?... I guess? There are still many GC temporal/etheric questions to answer, before anything is too clear.

[AluK]

What's the point of saving A Annie if I can't save them all, says a concerned Kat.

[migrantworker]

Hmm.

"The next time the loop happens".

But will it? Is it even a loop? 

Okay, so we have an event (Annie being saved) caused by something which has not yet been created at that time. We saw that before. (That page must now be getting quite worn out from the constant linking!) And there was no loop required to make it happen: Jones wandered the earth, left some footsteps in the process, then humans evolved as a species and their collective imagination created Jones who then could have made the footsteps all those ages ago. This has already happened, so everything fell into its place and there is no longer the need for humans to keep re-evolving over and over again to make it possible.

I think that Tic-toc would work on the same principle. It has interacted with the Gunnerverse, therefore Kat will build it at some later point. The cause and effect will not be reversed, because 'interacting with the Gunnerverse' is the cause and 'Tic-toc' is its effect. Once constructed, it will embody all its past interactions, which until then would have been loose ends of sorts but will fall into place with no need to be forever re-enacted to make themselves possible.

As a final thought, there is a parallel between Jones existing since the creation of the Earth and the Tic-toc being older than the Court, and I think it is an essential part required to make this whole scheme work. Basically, it means that the moment of Jones's and Tic-toc's first appearance in the world could not have been observed. There was nobody to see an empty space all of a sudden becoming occupied by Jones/the Tic-toc materialising out of nothing; all observers saw a Jones, or a Tic-toc, which by the time of their observation has already existed (in the sense of 'having had already interacted with the world'). With no observable beginning, they could have existed for any arbitrary length of time prior to the observation, which would have given them time to potentially interact with the observer's world. But if their beginning could have been observed, this potential earlier interaction becomes impossible. A Jones appearing out of nothing on the Eglamores' garden path just in time to pick up young James could not have made the footsteps ages ago, because she would be known to not yet have existed then.

[pyradonis]

Jun 10, 2020 14:02:45 GMT AluK said:

What's the point of saving A Annie if I can't save them all, says a concerned Kat.

With the punchline being that she is responsible for there being more than one (which was admittedly dead) in the first place.

[pyradonis]

Jun 10, 2020 14:35:33 GMT migrantworker said:

Hmm.

"The next time the loop happens".

But will it? Is it even a loop? 

Okay, so we have an event (Annie being saved) caused by something which has not yet been created at that time. We saw that before. (That page must now be getting quite worn out from the constant linking!) And there was no loop required to make it happen: Jones wandered the earth, left some footsteps in the process, then humans evolved as a species and their collective imagination created Jones who then could have made the footsteps all those ages ago. This has already happened, so everything fell into its place and there is no longer the need for humans to keep re-evolving over and over again to make it possible.

I think that Tic-toc would work on the same principle. It has interacted with the Gunnerverse, therefore Kat will build it at some later point. The cause and effect will not be reversed, because 'interacting with the Gunnerverse' is the cause and 'Tic-toc' is its effect. Once constructed, it will embody all its past interactions, which until then would have been loose ends of sorts but will fall into place with no need to be forever re-enacted to make themselves possible.

As a final thought, there is a parallel between Jones existing since the creation of the Earth and the Tic-toc being older than the Court, and I think it is an essential part required to make this whole scheme work. Basically, it means that the moment of Jones's and Tic-toc's first appearance in the world could not have been observed. There was nobody to see an empty space all of a sudden becoming occupied by Jones/the Tic-toc materialising out of nothing; all observers saw a Jones, or a Tic-toc, which by the time of their observation has already existed (in the sense of 'having had already interacted with the world'). With no observable beginning, they could have existed for any arbitrary length of time prior to the observation, which would have given them time to potentially interact with the observer's world. But if their beginning could have been observed, this potential earlier interaction becomes impossible. A Jones appearing out of nothing on the Eglamores' garden path just in time to pick up young James could not have made the footsteps ages ago, because she would be known to not yet have existed then.

It is my thought as well that this might resolve the dilemma. Maybe Kat will not even actively do anything to send the Tic-toc back in time, or repeatedly try and fail, but in the future the evolved robot's souls going into the Ether will have made the Tic-toc have existed since before the Court was founded. Sent a divine being to watch other them all.

[migrantworker]

Jun 10, 2020 16:18:02 GMT pyradonis said:

Jun 10, 2020 14:35:33 GMT migrantworker said:

Hmm.

"The next time the loop happens".

But will it? Is it even a loop? 

Okay, so we have an event (Annie being saved) caused by something which has not yet been created at that time. We saw that before. (That page must now be getting quite worn out from the constant linking!) And there was no loop required to make it happen: Jones wandered the earth, left some footsteps in the process, then humans evolved as a species and their collective imagination created Jones who then could have made the footsteps all those ages ago. This has already happened, so everything fell into its place and there is no longer the need for humans to keep re-evolving over and over again to make it possible.

I think that Tic-toc would work on the same principle. It has interacted with the Gunnerverse, therefore Kat will build it at some later point. The cause and effect will not be reversed, because 'interacting with the Gunnerverse' is the cause and 'Tic-toc' is its effect. Once constructed, it will embody all its past interactions, which until then would have been loose ends of sorts but will fall into place with no need to be forever re-enacted to make themselves possible.

As a final thought, there is a parallel between Jones existing since the creation of the Earth and the Tic-toc being older than the Court, and I think it is an essential part required to make this whole scheme work. Basically, it means that the moment of Jones's and Tic-toc's first appearance in the world could not have been observed. There was nobody to see an empty space all of a sudden becoming occupied by Jones/the Tic-toc materialising out of nothing; all observers saw a Jones, or a Tic-toc, which by the time of their observation has already existed (in the sense of 'having had already interacted with the world'). With no observable beginning, they could have existed for any arbitrary length of time prior to the observation, which would have given them time to potentially interact with the observer's world. But if their beginning could have been observed, this potential earlier interaction becomes impossible. A Jones appearing out of nothing on the Eglamores' garden path just in time to pick up young James could not have made the footsteps ages ago, because she would be known to not yet have existed then.

It is my thought as well that this might resolve the dilemma. Maybe Kat will not even actively do anything to send the Tic-toc back in time, or repeatedly try and fail, but in the future the evolved robot's souls going into the Ether will have made the Tic-toc have existed since before the Court was founded. Sent a divine being to watch other them all.

Yup. If only Kat could somehow let go of the fixation on doing it all by herself, relax and let events conspire to bring the inevitable...

[DonDueed]

I think it's significant that Kat has never met Coyote (or Loup).  The point at which those two come together may be the crucial moment. 

Here's one scenario: at the time of the meeting, Kat is still frantic about how to send the tic-toc back in time.  Coyote, laughing all the while, simply gives the tic-toc the power to move through time.  If Kat has already given it its mission to save Annie, this is the only thing that has to happen -- not only to get the tic-toc back to the founding of the Court or earlier (maybe its aim isn't so good at first) but also to produce six or more tic-tocs at the critical moment.  The "first" tic-toc reaches Annie too late to save her, so it jumps back a bit and tries again.  Rinse and repeat until success.  Then the "last" tic-toc is destroyed, found and buried, and ultimately prevented from its attempt to, um, build a tic-toc factory maybe?  So that puts an end to the tic-toc's timeline.

I'm in the camp that argues against the need for multiple dimensions or a multiverse here; this particular time loop is closed.  If the above scenario (or similar) takes place, Kat's role in the loop has already been completed -- she doesn't have to invent time travel, and she really has no need to fret.  Of course, right now she doesn't know that.

[zbeeblebrox]

Okay, but consider: the time loop (actually let's not use "loop", it's more of an infinitely branching logarithmic sequence. like a spiral. It's a time spiral) may have begun when a distraught Kat developed time travelling robot birds to save Annie - or more likely, a totally nondistraught Kat who barely remembers the cool weird girl she befriended for half a year before she died developed time travelling robot birds because she could, and incidentally used them to save Annie - BUT the likelihood that we're only at step two in this sequence is effectively zero. We must be somewhere in the middle. That means Kat consistently succeeds in inventing tic tocs who continue to support the development of the Time Spiral, and that means Kat really has nothing to worry about.

Unless that's exactly the attitude that breaks the Time Spiral. Haha I'm not helping!

[Ahakarin]

The thing about time manipulation is... parallel dimensions/timelines or no, there's no hurry. None.

If Kat sends the birds back six months from now, or 78 years from now... the outcome is the same. And if not, and it's all just one big stupid paradox...?

Eh, if space-tome can fart out singularities ala black holes, I'm sure a paradox or two can't obliterate everything.

[jda]

Jun 10, 2020 16:18:02 GMT pyradonis said:

Jun 10, 2020 14:35:33 GMT migrantworker said:

Hmm.

"The next time the loop happens".

But will it? Is it even a loop? 

Okay, .

It is my thought as well that this might resolve the dilemma. Maybe Kat will not even actively do anything to send the Tic-toc back in time, or repeatedly try and fail, but in the future the evolved robot's souls going into the Ether will have made the Tic-toc have existed since before the Court was founded. Sent a divine being to watch other them all.

Seems like Kat adheres to Mayan or Nordic interpretation of time as circular, an ouroboros. So, everything that happens will happen again, and all that will be already was. Meaning that this (these?) Tic Toc(s) just created will be the ones to save Annie on the NEXT iteration. They will survive Ragnarok, and be part of the 6th sun. 

[Corvo]

Jun 10, 2020 8:12:03 GMT Kuraimizu said:

Jun 10, 2020 7:35:44 GMT arf said:

Hmm... there were what? Six birds? Does that mean the loop goes six times before the final bird gets broken?
Does that mean, in another Universe, there are *six* Annies trying to help Kat answer this question before it fails?
... and they were joking about 4 Annies!
(I feel Coyote's scheme has something to do with resolving this. It would explain why Loup might agree it to being an excellent plan worth dying for.)

Pretty sure the Six tic-tocs mean that time has looped six times
or Kat made extras, based on what annie told her.
the question is which actually happened?

I imagine something along the lines:

Original timeline: Annie_1 dies, Kat_1 sends TicToc_1 back in time.
Loop 1: TicToc_1 fails, Annie_2 dies, Kat_2 sends TicTocs 1 and 2 back in time.
Loop 2: TicTocs 1 and 2 fail, Annie_3 dies, Kat_3 sends TicTocs 1, 2 and 3 back in time.
...
Loop n: TicTocs 1 to n succeed, Annie_n+1 survives, Annie_n+2 arrives, Kat_n+1 freaks out, unknown TicTocs status.
Loop n+1: TicTocs 1 to n+x succeed, Annie_n+2 survives, Loup sends Annie_n+2 to loop n, unknown Kat_n+2 status, unknown Tictocs status.

Either that, or the TicToc sends himself back in time and the whole thing is self-sustaining, so Kat is worrying over nothing. Well, worrying for the wrong reasons at least, I'd be pretty worried about the loop where the amount of TicTocs cause Earth to become a blackhole.

[Corvo]

Jun 10, 2020 14:35:33 GMT migrantworker said:

...humans evolved as a species and their collective imagination created Jones...

Not sure that's how Jones came to be. She seems pretty unique, even among these "etheric beings". Sounded like even Coyote couldn't explain what she is, and that's the guy who broke the fourth wall.

[migrantworker]

Jun 11, 2020 7:42:05 GMT Corvo said:

Jun 10, 2020 14:35:33 GMT migrantworker said:

...humans evolved as a species and their collective imagination created Jones...

Not sure that's how Jones came to be. She seems pretty unique, even among these "etheric beings". Sounded like even Coyote couldn't explain what she is, and that's the guy who broke the fourth wall.

Hmm, that's not how I understand it. By my reading of this page, Coyote considers Jones to be a perfect example of such a process.

(Edit: you can Like your own comments? I do, but this is a bit... much.)

[phantaskippy]

I wonder how long this will go until someone brings up saving Annie's mom.

Does Antony find out about Kat's time work, does one of the Annies figure it out?

[fia]

I hope one day there's a full-page spread explanation of the timey-wimey stuff. I want to believe it can make sense.

[warrl]

Oh, it can, any of several different ways. We're just arguing over the details and which way makes the most sense.

[pyradonis]

"The next time the loop happens".
When would the loop start anew, then? At the end of the universe? Where would it start again? At the Big Bang?

[speedwell]

Jun 10, 2020 14:35:33 GMT migrantworker said:

Hmm.

"The next time the loop happens".

But will it? Is it even a loop? 

No. The Gunnerkrigg milieu is a story with a writer. This is not trivial or facetious. Many people think it's the reason our universe has a Planck length. 

(For those who suddenly had a bright idea, this is not proof of God any more than a character postulating the existence of Tom is proof of God.)

[Runningflame]

Jun 11, 2020 18:53:32 GMT phantaskippy said:

I wonder how long this will go until someone brings up saving Annie's mom.

Does Antony find out about Kat's time work, does one of the Annies figure it out?

Well, given that Annie is the reason Surma died, any attempt to save Surma would involve getting rid of Annie, no? And even if it's a Surma/Annie from another dimension and we get to keep our Annie(s), I don't think Kat would be okay with that.

[warrl]

Jun 12, 2020 8:28:23 GMT speedwell said:

Jun 10, 2020 14:35:33 GMT migrantworker said:

Hmm.

"The next time the loop happens".

But will it? Is it even a loop? 

No. The Gunnerkrigg milieu is a story with a writer. This is not trivial or facetious. Many people think it's the reason our universe has a Planck length. 

(For those who suddenly had a bright idea, this is not proof of God any more than a character postulating the existence of Tom is proof of God.)

Well, over in Carry On, one of the characters has bribed the writer.



Edit: for some reason, when I'm reading the forum this picture will not load... although if I edit the post and go to "preview", it does, and then it's fine in the forum too. If it isn't loading for you, the broken-image box should also be the link to the specific strip in question.