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Post by Dvandaemon on May 25, 2020 18:03:25 GMT
I don't think she's ever seen one yet? They always appeared when Kat wasn't around, which was key to the "Kat created them" theory. Huh, you are right. I thought she saw one with the robots in chapter 24, but it is only the symbol which she probably wasn't even aware of. www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=646Not only unawares but in the foreground of the panel where they discuss how Diego isn't their creator. That's some very good foreshadowing. |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on May 25, 2020 18:17:52 GMT
...
I only have one question: why did Kat need to use a 20-conductor ribbon cable to hook up a pair of batteries?
Those are more than just batteries, it is the Tic Toc's heart that links everything. |
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Post by netherdan on May 25, 2020 18:22:22 GMT
Furthermore, I can't believe I never realized that the Tic-Tocs pretty much stop showing up after they save Annie at the bridge - some part of me has always carried this peculiar assumption that the Tic-Tocs were still around in the Court, but Annie had just stopped seeing them. But what if they weren't? If they were sent back in time in order to find & save the "real Annie", then it makes perfect sense for them to simply leave the timeline after their mission is complete! A dead one appears shortly after but that's the last time before now The paradox still ought to exist even if Kat is unaware of it. You go back in time. You shoot somebody. You fade from existence. That person was your grandfather, whom you never met. Edit: Gemini Jim , just to be clear, I think what netherdan was trying to say was that Kat has never seen the Tic-tocs, so she can't be "reverse-engineering" them like you're assuming. Kat is building a time-traveling bird robot all on her own, and it turns out that they were the Tic-tocs which saved Annie all along. You can't have a Bootstrap Paradox if you're younger self isn't acting on the information you send back. Does that make sense? There is still a paradox because those pesky birds have been influencing the timeline almost since the beginning of the court, or even from the very beginning if it is confirmed that they or their original egg are the seed bismuth. But certainly it has been provoking curiosity among Court researchers, freaking out wandering students and influencing the robot culture. But I don't think it can be qualified as a bootstrap paradox since Kat's inspiration seems to have come from her crush on Aly, Robot's new body, City Face's wing and CruiseLiner (the AI ship who wanted to be a whale to date a married crustacean) and she presumably never saw one of those birds |
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Post by Gemini Jim on May 25, 2020 18:44:19 GMT
The paradox still ought to exist even if Kat is unaware of it. You go back in time. You shoot somebody. You fade from existence. That person was your grandfather, whom you never met. Edit: Gemini Jim , just to be clear, I think what netherdan was trying to say was that Kat has never seen the Tic-tocs, so she can't be "reverse-engineering" them like you're assuming. Kat is building a time-traveling bird robot all on her own, and it turns out that they were the Tic-tocs which saved Annie all along. You can't have a Bootstrap Paradox if you're younger self isn't acting on the information you send back. Does that make sense? There is still a paradox because those pesky birds have been influencing the timeline almost since the beginning of the court, or even from the very beginning if it is confirmed that they or their original egg are the seed bismuth. But certainly it has been provoking curiosity among Court researchers, freaking out wandering students and influencing the robot culture. But I don't think it can be qualified as a bootstrap paradox since Kat's inspiration seems to have come from her crush on Aly, Robot's new body, City Face's wing and CruiseLiner (the AI ship who wanted to be a whale to date a married crustacean) and she presumably never saw one of those birds OK, I see what you're saying. Somebody on Easter Island builds a GameBoy, having never seen one before, and her version looks exactly like the real thing. That's a weird coincidence, but not a paradox. I forgot the "never seen one" part. Sorry. There's still some shoes to fall from the sky if Annie recognizes the thing, which she should. Also, that thing has to get Back To The Past somehow, and that creates a Stable Time Loop, where the thing was always going to have been created in the future. That's still not quite a paradox, but there's room for an awful lot of risk. I'm waiting to see if an Annie or Kat has to go back in time with the thing, and the photo is older Annie in a young Annie's body stuck in the past (and can't say anything about it?). |
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Post by gpvos on May 25, 2020 18:49:36 GMT
Kat just really, really wants a visit from Temporal Affairs. A time loop should get their attention. Hopefully not like this though. |
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Post by fia on May 25, 2020 18:54:01 GMT
I just want to point out a detail I noticed: the Tic-Toc that saved Annie goes BEEEEEE! (not "tic toc") just after enemy-shadow-controlled Robot grabs Reynardine. Also, in the last panel here, we see at least 4 Tic-Tocs. So I am guessing that they will have another role besides saving Annie at the bridge. You don't need so many to save Annie from dying. Either there were already timelines split here that required multiple Tic-Tocs, or they have something else to do later. EDIT to say: I mean when you consider the references to Tannhauser Gate (from a poem in Bladerunner) in that one bonus page and the fact that the kids were learning quantum mechanics very early on, it's not so surprising that the alternate dimensions plotline was going to feature alongside advances in artificial intelligence. But the whole idea of time and dimensions is super mind-bendier even than what the comic has mentioned so far. |
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Post by fia on May 25, 2020 18:58:49 GMT
Second detail: In this panel when Annie cuts herself trying to clean up the glass, I thought it was foreshadowing what happens with the forest. But... what if it's foreshadowing something bad happening to Kat?! |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on May 25, 2020 19:05:22 GMT
Kat just really, really wants a visit from Temporal Affairs. A time loop should get their attention. Hopefully not like this though. I was just thinking the same....
Kat discovered how to make an appointment with TA. TA exists outside any given timeline (between the Tic and the Toc). To make an appointment with TA you have shift outside your timeline. Kat is building the Tic Toc to shift it out of this timeline, contact TA, and make an appointment. Kat isn't trying to change anything (yet), she needs TA to come to her.
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Post by fia on May 25, 2020 19:05:33 GMT
Furthermore, I can't believe I never realized that the Tic-Tocs pretty much stop showing up after they save Annie at the bridge - some part of me has always carried this peculiar assumption that the Tic-Tocs were still around in the Court, but Annie had just stopped seeing them. They do show up at least once in this page after Annie has been rescued from the bridge. It's about 2 chapters after the bridge storyline. |
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Post by netherdan on May 25, 2020 19:10:09 GMT
I'm waiting to see if an Annie or Kat has to go back in time with the thing, and the photo is older Annie in a young Annie's body stuck in the past (and can't say anything about it?). I believe they will not travel back themselves (nor their etheric projections) but they will use computer interfaces that access the TicTocs from the past using quantum entanglement to link them to a present counterpart piece of equipment. But even for the past birds to exist in an entangled state, at least their "minds" should have been created in the present and sent back in time. Perhaps using the egg, which I believe is the seed bismuth, to contain all their minds (a thousand, maybe? or 500 since that would count as a thousand eyes) which would then grow the birds upon arrival. Energy consumption grows exponentially the more mass you need to pass through a wormhole so a single egg to keep it simple. And in creating a human-computer interface for "being" a bird in the past, Kat will have successfully "explained" etheric projection (or at least parts of it) and damaged even more the etheric fabric of reality by turning things you cannot see into things you can see. Ok, I might have steered a bit into the wildspec lane here so I'll just drop that Kat might be the Omega Device, the "thing" the Court is making that messes with the ether, and that's why they're okay with her robot shenanigans I just want to point out a detail I noticed: the Tic-Toc that saved Annie goes BEEEEEE! (not "tic toc") just after enemy-shadow-controlled Robot grabs Reynardine. Also, in the last panel here, we see at least 4 Tic-Tocs. So I am guessing that they will have another role besides saving Annie at the bridge. You don't need so many to save Annie from dying. Either there were already timelines split here that required multiple Tic-Tocs, or they have something else to do later. I always assumed the "Tic-Toc" sound was their idle behavior in which they would click their beaks as a weird instinctive quirk like a living organism (unlike a mechanical being that stays completely still when motor functions are not needed, like Sky Watcher) and not as the only sound they could make |
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Post by Dvandaemon on May 25, 2020 19:36:47 GMT
Incidentally --
More stuff I'd like to highlight from my mega-theory thread seven years ago. All the cookies! Re: many eyes, that could symbolize omniscience or an ever-watchful god, and reminds me of the entities (angels?) in Revelation 4:8. This is super exciting and I’m psyched that your theory is coming to pass! Again, all the cookies. I figured the recursive image shown when describing Zimmy's hatred of the tic tocs means that she can sense their time looped existence in some way. |
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Post by wies on May 25, 2020 20:47:56 GMT
I figured the recursive image shown when describing Zimmy's hatred of the tic tocs means that she can sense their time looped existence in some way.
Also in chapter 11, the only time they appear after having saved Annie, there are a lot of timejumps! |
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Post by Dvandaemon on May 25, 2020 23:20:01 GMT
Oh, we already know that Zimmy empathically takes on memories and identities. What if the paradox of the tic tocs adds on to the stress her etheric powers gives her?
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Post by IvDead on May 26, 2020 1:03:33 GMT
Has anyone else ever commented on the cracks in the right(Left? It depend of the perspective *shrug*) side of the head, and its implications? |
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Post by bendoubles on May 26, 2020 1:31:39 GMT
Since Ysengrin mentioned that the court would try to take Annie away when talking through Loup, we haven't really seen any indication that the Court wants her to go anywhere. No it could be that his attack disrupted those plans, but it's also possible that he was foreseeing Kat's displeasure with the idea of time-shifted Annies. He may have interpreted Kat as the court, and sending her to a separate timeline as far far away. Of course Loup's own actions post attack are what initiated this state of affairs in the first place, but stupidly fulfilling his own prophecies by trying to avoid them seems like a pretty Loup thing to do. Ysengrin may not have the full story only being an aspect of the whole. |
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Post by aquamafia on May 26, 2020 3:31:41 GMT
Watch this entire discussion be us overthinking things and the tic toc is just something Kat captured and is investigating LAUGHING ON LINE
Still, Kat did say she's BUILDING something, so it points more towards her making the bird.
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laaaa
Full Member
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Post by laaaa on May 26, 2020 4:41:50 GMT
Has anyone else ever commented on the cracks in the right(Left? It depend of the perspective *shrug*) side of the head, and its implications? Well... I just had a thought. The cracks could mean that Mecha!Kat is going insane... OR that her Mecha exterior could break and she might return to her original uuhhh form. |
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Post by netherdan on May 26, 2020 5:01:22 GMT
I figured the recursive image shown when describing Zimmy's hatred of the tic tocs means that she can sense their time looped existence in some way. Indeed! Just like what happens when you point a camera to its own live feed at the screen and everything goes whoooosh |
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Jota
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Post by Jota on May 26, 2020 13:43:20 GMT
Did we ever find out what originally inspired Diego to give the Seraph model robots wings?
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Post by rosesonthewall on May 26, 2020 13:48:19 GMT
Wait, is the leading theory that a future Kat made the birds... ...and sent them back in time to save Annie from falling off the bridge? And Annie was supposed to die that night, and that's why NEITHER of them should be in this timeline? WHAT OMIGOD i have nothing substantial to add, just that this entire thing has blown my mind. 🤯 I am SO amazed that others already predicted what’s up, but i am amazed in general with what all of this implies i mean i have some more thoughts but typing on a slow mobile interface is hard |
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Post by ctso74 on May 26, 2020 13:54:53 GMT
Welp. Buckle up, everybody. And the cookies rain. I think in this case "other timeline" or "other dimension" effectively means "in the ether." According to Skippy, who is the only source on this stuff to date, there is normally no need for more than one timeline or dimension though they can be created by powerful entities who aren't supposed to do so (or at least Coyote isn't). I think we can infer that other people have been shifted in the past but timelines aren't multiplying. Until we have a firmer idea, of what "timeline" means, it'll be difficult to interpret things. Perhaps, we're about to get the info needed. The broken glass was a metaphor for time/continuity being shattered with this event??? I do like that imagery. |
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Post by saardvark on May 26, 2020 13:55:42 GMT
Since Ysengrin mentioned that the court would try to take Annie away when talking through Loup, we haven't really seen any indication that the Court wants her to go anywhere. No it could be that his attack disrupted those plans, but it's also possible that he was foreseeing Kat's displeasure with the idea of time-shifted Annies. He may have interpreted Kat as the court, and sending her to a separate timeline as far far away. Of course Loup's own actions post attack are what initiated this state of affairs in the first place, but stupidly fulfilling his own prophecies by trying to avoid them seems like a pretty Loup thing to do. Ysengrin may not have the full story only being an aspect of the whole. Interesting, tho if he tells to Frannie "they want to take you far away", that implies she (and not Courtney) is the one who has been displaced from another timeline. Or maybe Ys just isn't distinguishing between the Annies very well.... |
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Post by saardvark on May 26, 2020 14:02:05 GMT
Has anyone mentioned this (hidden in plain view) thing already? The soft tick-tock of a an old clock indicating the slow passage of time.... the Tic-Toc's very name (and sound they make) is a (rather strong) hint that they have something to do with time (travel?)...
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Post by pyradonis on May 26, 2020 14:41:34 GMT
The broken glass was a metaphor for time/continuity being shattered with this event??? An Muut was there to take the destroyed timeline away?  Has anyone mentioned this (hidden in plain view) thing already? The soft tick-tock of a an old clock indicating the slow passage of time.... the Tic-Toc's very name (and sound they make) is a (rather strong) hint that they have something to do with time (travel?)... Well...now...that you mention it...I think not. Damnit. |
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Post by blazingstar on May 26, 2020 15:00:58 GMT
This is the most I've been startled by a GC page since we saw Kat's real face through Zimmy's eyes. I know some forum users predicted it (and cookies to them!), so some of us were not surprised, but the build up + art evolution still made the Tic Toc reveal very well done.
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Post by iconocat on May 26, 2020 15:01:21 GMT
The broken glass was a metaphor for time/continuity being shattered with this event??? An Muut was there to take the destroyed timeline away? I mean, Muut doesn't deal with timelines at all. Has anyone mentioned Kat hatching the egg yet? |
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Post by rosesonthewall on May 26, 2020 15:07:45 GMT
Feel like there is a lot of foreshadowing in what Muut says in these pages. "Someone who is 'just fine' would not be in this place"
"Your... current situation"After what she learnt from the Interpreter, I think Kat might have thought back to the closest that Annie had ever been to dying?  And then remembered that night on the bridge, and the mystery of the Tic Tocs. When Kat saved Annie, she said she'd never lost anyone she cared for. Is this an impetus for how hard Kat has worked, by building a Tic Toc, to find out if an Annie had ever died under her watch? Did Paz know what Kat was doing? Did Paz think that attempting time travel was an indicator of Kat finally becoming too "obsessed" with the Annies? I'm curious, if Annie was supposed to die that night, do you guys think it's because (1) falling off the cliff was deadly in itself (2) she would've survived the fall, but not the inevitable encounter with Jeanne? I am wondering if the Tic Tocs not only saved her with (1), but also delayed her dying by (2) because of the shore she ended up on. I wonder if the Tic Toc showed up here for any other reason, now that we know the possible reason for their existence. Nah. I think she looks weird because... one of the alternate Annies was created by Loup. The other was created by Kat all those years ago. Actual Annie died. Imagine telling someone they should be dead. I agree. I feel this hits me hard as well, the possibility that Annie was supposed to have died so early on. Like, an entire comic ago, i.e. a lifetime. I am entirely okay if Kat is sad because, well, what she has discovered is sad. I know about the Kat robogod theories, which I usually don't touch as I'd like to see that unfold before me when it comes (sooner than I realised?!). But Kat's words a few pages back brought back to me Kat's and Annie's different worldviews on magic and science, how the journey we've followed them on so far is really about how these two worlds intertwine. So at first I agreed with Annie, ah Kat is being unaccepting again about how magic coexists with science in their universe. But I see Kat's point. Yes, she lives in a world where animals can talk, ghosts and gods can exist. But without scientific innovation, robot designs were stuck in Diego's time, the philosophy of robotic lives were left to robots just being machines and taken for granted. So for someone like Kat, who has achieved so much with robots, the brushing off of the existence of two Annies was not satisfactory. It happened somehow, and not just because magic. And so she pushes again, at the boundaries of scientific knowledge, to find out how to manipulate time. |
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Post by netherdan on May 26, 2020 16:08:25 GMT
An Muut was there to take the destroyed timeline away? I mean, Muut doesn't deal with timelines at all. As an etheric being it is possible that he dwells in all timelines at once, like the 4th dimensional being in Rick and Morty. He was possibly there to take the dead Annie away and was surprised to also find a living one, but quickly noticed what has happened and greeted her accordingly |
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Post by pyradonis on May 26, 2020 16:25:26 GMT
I mean, Muut doesn't deal with timelines at all. As an etheric being it is possible that he dwells in all timelines at once, like the 4th dimensional being in Rick and Morty. He was possibly there to take the dead Annie away and was surprised to also find a living one, but quickly noticed what has happened and greeted her accordingly As much as I would like this to be true, I would expect a psychopomp from the British isles, like Ankou, Moddhey Doo or Mallt-Y-Nos to come for Annie if she died without having transferred her spirit to a child. Muut is a spirit from North American mythology, so it makes much more sense for him to come for the shadow man, as the shadow men were creations of Coyote, a God stemming from North American mythology as well. (Muut could still have perceived Annie as dead in that moment. But in that case he must have quickly noticed he was wrong and continued doing what he had come to do: give her the blinker stone.)
I'm curious, if Annie was supposed to die that night, do you guys think it's because (1) falling off the cliff was deadly in itself (2) she would've survived the fall, but not the inevitable encounter with Jeanne? I am wondering if the Tic Tocs not only saved her with (1), but also delayed her dying by (2) because of the shore she ended up on. You mean, they deliberately let her land on the Forest side in order for her to be protected from Jeanne? Makes perfect sense, actually! |
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Post by arkadi on May 26, 2020 17:05:19 GMT
I just read the new page. I can't believe that we've been theorizing for so long that Kat was behind the Tic Tocs and I still didn't see this coming!! >_<
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And then remembered that night on the bridge, and the mystery of the Tic Tocs.
