Court vs Forest : the power in the power station

[silvercat]

I have been thinking about the fairies’ name for GKC : they call it the Court at Gunner’s Crag, which does feel like the root form of Gunnerkrigg Court. Unfortunately no further information about Gunner, the Crag or the Court is provided by the suicide fairies. www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=139
So next I tied it in with Jones’ explanation that the Court was once founded in the heart of the Forest. www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=373

I feel it’s very possible that Gunner’s Crag was the name for the heart of the Forest. Or perhaps Gunner was the Creature who offered the refuge to the group of humans.
What do you think ?

When I mentioned this in an off-forum conversation with Agasa, he raised the very interesting idea that the Heart of the Forest might be a place of power. He cited the 19th cover as proof : www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=443
It looks like the Court built a technological powerstation that runs on etherical power... hence the purple lights and the doom-like glowing.
Do you feel, like Agasa, like me, that this is credible ?
What do you think about it ? Is the Court harnassing energy that does not belong to them ? That might be the reason the Forest seems so angry. Or do you think they just don’t care about the Forest anymore, as the headmaster’s attitude seems to suggest ?

Agasa and I soon realised that the definition of “technology” is very important. Jones’ explanation, in combination with Coyote’s visit and some of Reynardine’s remarks and such suggests that there is a clear division between the two...
Personally I feel that the lines are blurred in GKC. I think that some of the inhabitants of the Court are more connected to the natural world than they are to the scientific analytical mindset.
Mort seems a good example : he is learning about fear. On the other hand, one might argue that he is using a scientific method of ‘trial and error’ with his ‘case studies’. Where do you think Mort stands : nature or science ?
Likewise, I feel that some Forest creatures are now developping their own interpretations of technology. Ysengrim springs to mind : his wooden arms are an instrument that does not naturally belong to him, I feel. In my opinion, it doesn’t matter if the prothesis is made of magical wood or clever robotics.

Agasa and I also agreed that the definition of “reasonable explanation” is important. Kat doesn’t seem satisfied with “it’s etherically imbued so that’s why it works” ...
Agasa even told me how the seed from which the new arms grew can be seen as a stem-cell which was etherically transplanted onto Robot S-13 or Ysengrim, but I would like to invite him to explain that --- I’m no Kat ;-)

[agasa]

I think silvercat post extended a lil bit beyond our talk, so i'll now relive my talking with silver to expose and integrate with my point of view, as he invited me to do.
As he said, the suicide fairies said that the place is called the Court of Gunner's Crag. As some pointed out, this might be a reference of ancient memories of what was in the forest before human taken root there, and i suspect this "Gunner's crag" (crag being a rocky plain that is rugged and stands off from the sorrounding) is an object(place), a source of power. The Court now has this object under control, uses his power in some way and the Woods are angry for this. This leads to thinking, on my side, that the Court is on the wrong side of the battle, thing that i do not like as i've always viewed the Court as a place of order and logic against against a place of savage,brutal violence.

But, where does this sense of brutality and violence stems off? Certainly not from Coyote, who might be a trickster god but has shown no sign of the above, and not from reynardine or the Shadow People either. It comes from Ysengrin in his behavior, and this leads to a question: why Ysengrin is senseless as he is (besides the obvious "it's his nature")?

The answer of silvercat is that, i'm quoting him, "using his arms he's being infected by some form of technology", akin to robotics, or cybernetics, and from this (this his my speculation on sil thoughts) stems his imbalance. My view is radically different from this: the seeds are not something technological but something natural. Normal, everyday seeds are very akin, symbol of life themselves, to stem cells, like cells of an embryo, and from them, dividing, differentiating an multiplying, can grow a tree. But, given an adequate stimulus, a stem cell can also make limbs regenerate: take a look here medgadget.com/archives/2006/05/limb_regenerati.html and here www.cellscience.com/reviews2/Organ_Regeneration_Immune_Involvement.html - the difference between the primitive salamander and the evolved mammal is that (for avoiding some side effects like cancer) the mammals have lost the ability to reclaim stem cells and use them to reconstruct body parts, except for organs like the liver and some parts of the kidneys.

Our Etherically Embued Seed has been twisted and corrupted to be able, differently from a normal seed, to implant in any living tissue, and assume his role as general stem cell there. If you see, the stem cells of the salamander are put to build an arm by receiving specific in-site stimulus. If the stimulus ceases in the middle of the growing, the stem cells revert to normal cells or become cancerous. It is because of that, that the arm can grow as an arm when in site, but (presumably) reverts to a normal tree when removed from our beloved S13. No one in the forest or the court seems to think that it's right for the wooden arms and stuff to be like that, and it is not: it's a form of violence to nature as it is. Much more violent, twisting nature forces upon themselves, than whatever evil science can offer.

This whole explanation has a fallacy, apparently, that is: why the arm has grown on robot? While i might be totally off track, i would say that the seeds can grow on whatever is partly organic, and in my vision robot his. Why? The answer is an old theory of mine, concerning his CPU: have you seen the superseding part of it? the part that is apparently attached to the CPU itself? I think part of S13 smartness as an AI comes from the fact that that part is made of living brain tissue, and that it can in fact execute non-Turing-computable algorithms (actually, AIs that contain some living brain cells are being studied (i find engineering fallacy in the implementations, but it comes from my field of study, hehe): www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/14/robot-with-rat-brain-robo_n_119057.html ). It would have been interesting to study old S13 wrecked body to see if the arm has propagated some nervous cells inside, aiding, perhaps, in the shadowman takeover.

I Will definitely edit and add to this sleep deprivation-induced rambling later, and i hope someone will reply to this

[nikita]

<Off topic post>

Aug 26, 2008 22:46:30 GMT agasa said:

I think part of S13 smartness as an AI comes from the fact that that part is made of living brain tissue, and that it can in fact execute non-Turing-computable algorithms

The brain being capable of computing non-computable functions sounds pretty interesting. Is that an idea of yours or has somebody already dealt with that question?

[silvercat]

Aug 27, 2008 0:30:42 GMT nikita said:

<Off topic post>

The brain being capable of computing non-computable functions sounds pretty interesting. Is that an idea of yours or has somebody already dealt with that question?

I don't know where Agasa got the idea but I wonder if perhaps it's linked to the fact that Robot S-13 has feelings : he does call Annie his mum.

Also, I don't think it's exactly off-topic.... I think you both raised interesting points about the factors at play in the Court and the Forest. I had almost forgotten about the robots : no one seems to know where they are from, do they ?
www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=279

[agasa]

Hehe, i'm more Kat-like in my thinking, as such my thesis is not based on emotions, but rather on the generally complex behavior that GKC robots exhibit (even boxbot, see!).

And not, it's not an off-topic. This stuff is intended to shade light on the inner working of GKC robotic beings, and maybe understand something more logical about the etherium-yeah, this lines come out naturally. I'm really Kat-like.

for Nikita: Yeah, somebody already dealt with the question of brains as non-turing machines.
In fact non-turing(non-computer)-computable algorithms is a major topic since the beginning of computer science (and has been to great extent studied by Alan Turing himself). The fact is, an human brain (and by extent, any animal brain) can understand and follow (and design, obviously) any turing-computable algorithm, but it can do things that are not describable in that manner, and are of greater efficacy. For example, it exhibits non-deterministic behavior. this is probably possible, in my thinking, because neurons are in a state of chemical non-equilibrium and as such are very dependent on fluctuations, and living organism exhibit as such self-organizing abilities. For short, a brain comprises a turing machine, but the operations it can "execute" are a superset of turing machine operations.

For further (and probably more authoritative) reading, i've searched and found this (read especially the paragraph named "The Counter Argument - Non-Computational States"): www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/3/15/15956/6995

[cenit]

It goes down to linear and paralell ways of function... computer use a linear approach (fase 1, 2, 3 and so on) into the solving of a problem... using only the parts that are needed for it...

The brain, in the other hand, receives stimulus from all directions... for example, and this an example from textbooks, you're looking at a cloud... this information is transmitted to ALL OF YOUR BRAIN... of course, this signal dies very quickly in some parts (hey, I'm controlling a kydney here, don't care about clouds), some reach conceptual areas (which allows you to say, it's a cloud) and some other go to association areas (and you say "Oh my gad, it looks like Tom... sorta")

That parallel processing of informations is what enables the brain to do all the stuff that agasa is talking about... and he seems to know a lot about it so I'll remain in the boundaries of brains and human behavior... which my area of study

Hope this is useful for the discussion

Also, my english sucks on some tech terms, so if I mispelled, or use a weird word at some point, please tell me about it... so I can go grab my translator

[agasa]

Cenit, the explanation you did give is correct, albeit i feel it as a little simplistic. The sensory information is transmitted to parts of the brain, and it remains confined there. The signal that is propagated is a processed signal, and it propagates also only to specific areas (eg. in the case of vision, the frontal cortex). Computers are also very capable of parallel processing, but, maybe due to their rigid, logical, and compartmentalized design, are not capable of what the brain is capable. Let's proceed with a special example that explains stuff a little better:
There are also "errors" (or better, collateral behavior) in the "hardware" processing. One that springs to my mind is one that was discovered recently: the reason of why dancing (or more generally following a rhythm moving parts of his body) is something the average human like and most other animals do not understand. The area that attends to sound processing is slim, and very near to the one that attends to movement. As a result a repetitive, rhythmic signal that strongly stimulates the sound processing area "leaks" in its raw, unprocessed form into the movement area and elicits a response there.

[nikita]

Aug 27, 2008 8:55:03 GMT silvercat said:

Also, I don't think it's exactly off-topic....

I just marked my post off-topic because i had computability in mind, not GC.

[quote author=agasa board=general thread=423 post=13144
The fact is, an human brain (and by extent, any animal brain) can understand and follow (and design, obviously) any turing-computable algorithm, but it can do things that are not describable in that manner, and are of greater efficacy. For example, it exhibits non-deterministic behavior. this is probably possible, in my thinking, because neurons are in a state of chemical non-equilibrium and as such are very dependent on fluctuations, and living organism exhibit as such self-organizing abilities. For short, a brain comprises a turing machine, but the operations it can "execute" are a superset of turing machine operations. [/quote]

You can still use a deterministic turing machine for any problem solved by a non-deterministic one. (Savitch's theorem)
But I think I know what you mean. The non-determinism in a brain is probably different from of the kind of non-determinism in turing machines (where all possible paths are already known)
Thanks for that link.

[cenit]

Aug 27, 2008 15:39:13 GMT agasa said:

... The sensory information is transmitted to parts of the brain, and it remains confined there. The signal that is propagated is a processed signal, and it propagates also only to specific areas (eg. in the case of vision, the frontal cortex)...

Actually, the processed signal is "wired" to all connected areas of that part... most of them simply shut down the signal (technically, the neurons in that part are less excited of that stimulus), but some of those connections became "excited" with the stimulus... this also depends to how many connections the person has in his brain... more "simple" people have less connectiosn, and hence they make less associations; "smarter" people have more connections and thus are capable to associate more... and process more in paralell, in imaginative and creative ways.

Hey! Let's make a club, we can be called "The Children of Kat" or something like that ;D

[agasa]

rereading your post i think we are all saying the same stuff with different wordings.
Err, Children of Kat seems a little awkward, given i'm 18 and she's 13(14?). Anja will sound less creepy-this said, i'm totally in.

[Tenjen]

Katherina's Apprentices.

[etcetera]

Aug 27, 2008 17:07:42 GMT cenit said:

Hey! Let's make a club, we can be called "The Children of Kat" or something like that ;D

I'm in! ;D
Right now I'm thinking about a way to somehow work quantum mechanics into all of this.

[cenit]

Aug 27, 2008 18:05:11 GMT agasa said:

Err, Children of Kat seems a little awkward, given i'm 18 and she's 13(14?). Anja will sound less creepy-this said, i'm totally in.

Well, I'm 24 and I wouldn't mind... after all, GC doesnt have to match our present time... and on a different page, all that we have seen takes place in the past, since Annie is talking about it from some point in the future

but I would go for Katherina's apprentices if you like

[silvercat]

I don't think I qualify as a member --- half of what you write are things I never thought about. I guess that's pure GKC-magic in action, eh ?

I don't think I can attempt to understand the universe... what I CAN do, is ask The Children of Kat for some more thoughts about the division between nature's instincts and humanity's obsession with reason. *wink*
Artificial Intelligence seems to take a special place --- would it be fair to conclude from the posts above that some arguments exist to see robots and tic tocs as a third faction, perhaps one combining both the Forest and the Court ?

The tic tocs certainly seem to be a mystery, and a potential threat to both parties, eh?
And what about Jones possibly being an android, who doesn't side with either of the factions ?

[nikita]

Let's not forget that both sides use magic AND technology.
(The Donlans use magic, the seed from the forest and the shadow man manipulated robot's technology.)

[fuzzyone]

Yes, both sides in the court and the wood seem to know much more about magic and science than they let on. I'm no scientist, and don't even play one on television. But I can give some things that I have seen.

For Robot: S13 has complex emotional responses, such as despair and sadness when it believed Annie had been killed. He expresses surprise, usually when presented with things of beauty, such as Kat "Am I dead? I think I see an Angel" or the painting of Jeanne, "Oh... What a pretty lady." or somesuch. Even Boxbot can show disappointment. "Aww..." Robots tell one another jokes, albeit in a Robotic manner, Case in point, the two S-models in the hallway, in 'Mostly concerns Robots". So Robot's behavior is not unique as far as Gunnerkrigg robost go.

Some things I have noticed is that his CPU bears the mark that's seen everywhere, the symbol of GunnerKrigg, the Alchemical symbol for Bismuth. Now this may be just a simple design, or it may be more. Jones says that Bismuth's symbol is to denote that the court was founded on the concept of Technological and etheric design. In no place does that concept seem to be more expressed than in the Court's robots. Some part of their design, that is repeatable, expands their consciousnesses and gives them the capabilities to act beyond mere programmed responses. This is also a design that does not require human input, as the Court's robots both make, and repair themselves.

To be honest, I wonder what would happen were Kat to examine one of the court's 'Normal' robots, and if their designs would match up to her concepts of robotics and their construction. I somehow doubt that she would be allowed to grab a random model S with the intention of dismantling it, just to see how it works. Boxbot is also right out, as no one would want her to put him back together again.

As to the Court's magicians, here are some theories I have shared with a friend of mine. Both Dolans use magic of a sort, yet they are both scientists. This implies that magic is NOT outside the realm of learning, and one does not have to sacrifice scientific thinking and approach in order to understand etheric functions. But the magic of Anja and Donald bears a resemblance to circuitry, being composed of all hard angles and geometric designs. This led to both my friend and me rerfering to them as, what may be a misnomer, technomages. What does this imply? I don't know. I don't imagine we will know before Tom decides to show us. And I personally can say I'll be along for the ride at LEAST that long.