[2253] Well that don't sound fair.

[Gemini Jim]

Jan 16, 2020 14:36:52 GMT imaginaryfriend said:

Jan 16, 2020 8:15:34 GMT pyradonis said:

What does that mean, by the way? Is that a saying?

It may be a regional thing but I'm more familiar with "torches and pitchforks."

I can only assume that "nails and wood" would mean crucifixion, as in Jesus or martyrs.

"Torches and pitchforks" would imply a monster or perhaps a witch.


Both would have the same tragic end result for the Annies, but only one has potentially positive connotations.

[strangebloke1]

Jan 15, 2020 12:59:11 GMT todd said:

Jan 15, 2020 8:09:52 GMT taothegreat said:

Also, I see where Paz is coming from now. She knows absolutely nothing about what's going on, Kat isn't telling her anything so she's just getting fed the Court's lies.

I don't know if "lies" is the most accurate word. We don't know whether the Court leadership is deliberately feeding falsehoods against Annie. (It does seem capable of it, but we don't have any evidence.) More likely, the "everyone is saying this is your fault" is a panicky public looking for someone to blame. Since hardly anyone knows that Annie freed Jeanne, it's more likely (as I mentioned before) searching for someone to blame whom you can get at (which you can't do with Loup).

Though the Court leadership might still approve of blaming Annie, in the hopes that it'll distract everyone from itself.

The Court really doesn't seem to care about PR. The biggest staple of their policy appears to be that they don't tell anyone *ANYTHING*.

Paz is absolutely buying into a scapegoat rumor. But she already didn't like Annie, because she sees Annie as exploiting Kat's generous nature while being oblivious to her pain.

[imaginaryfriend]

Jan 16, 2020 22:20:19 GMT Gemini Jim said:

Both would have the same tragic end result for the Annies, but only one has potentially positive connotations.

I assume Paz will try to reserve any metaphorical martyrdom for herself. While she might consider such a fate to be dying for Antimonies' sins I doubt she would be forgiving or gracious about it.

[antiyonder]

Jan 16, 2020 22:22:37 GMT strangebloke1 said:

Paz is absolutely buying into a scapegoat rumor. But she already didn't like Annie, because she sees Annie as exploiting Kat's generous nature while being oblivious to her pain.

Interesting. I mean we got some links a thread or two ago showing that Paz was always jealous of Annie, but I don't recall actual signs of resentment until she first demanded that both versions of them get along.

[basser]

Oh snap last minute late night wildspec just cause I want the timestamp in the minuscule chance that it actually happens: Scruffy Annie not knowing who Zimmy is would suggest she's from a timeline where Zimmy doesn't exist. This would mean we swapped from Prissy Annie to Scruffy at some point after Torn Sea.

Another thing I noticed which might help explain Paz's behavior somewhat is that she was implied to have seen Kat's hyperdimensional robot goddess form at the end of Torn Sea. In which case Paz freaking out about Annie upsetting Kat might not be entirely childish nonsense - as far as Paz knows, Kat has the capacity to transform into some kind of incomprehensible cosmic horror when severely pissed off. Gives her oddly desperate anger a bit more of a defined shape, I think.

[madjack]

Jan 17, 2020 6:07:38 GMT basser said:

Another thing I noticed which might help explain Paz's behavior somewhat is that she was implied to have seen Kat's hyperdimensional robot goddess form at the end of Torn Sea. In which case Paz freaking out about Annie upsetting Kat might not be entirely childish nonsense - as far as Paz knows, Kat has the capacity to transform into some kind of incomprehensible cosmic horror when severely pissed off. Gives her oddly desperate anger a bit more of a defined shape, I think.

This is the first time all 3* people who've seen Mechagoddess Kat have all been in the same place since The Torn Sea, isn't it? Annie hadn't seen it at that point yet too, this could get interesting.

*Annie only counted as 1 then.

Edit: Welp, not for long.

[blackouthart]

Jan 16, 2020 6:11:16 GMT Sky Schemer said:

Now that Zimmy is here, we have to accept the possibility that that isn't Paz, there aren't two Annies, the two girls behind Paz aren't even there, that's not Gamma, and Zimmy isn't the real Zimmy.

Inb4 anyone else: Becky is actually Zimmy. Honestly any of them could be Zimmy, I’m remaining suspicious until they share panels together.

Anyway, I like how this update alone has made all the lurkers come out from underneath the floorboards (good thing because Tom put all the spiders, and presumably Z&G in there). TONIGHT, WE RIDE.

[strangebloke1]

Jan 17, 2020 7:15:47 GMT blackouthart said:

Jan 16, 2020 6:11:16 GMT Sky Schemer said:

Now that Zimmy is here, we have to accept the possibility that that isn't Paz, there aren't two Annies, the two girls behind Paz aren't even there, that's not Gamma, and Zimmy isn't the real Zimmy.

Inb4 anyone else: Becky is actually Zimmy. Honestly any of them could be Zimmy, I’m remaining suspicious until they share panels together.

Anyway, I like how this update alone has made all the lurkers come out from underneath the floorboards (good thing because Tom put all the spiders, and presumably Z&G in there). TONIGHT, WE RIDE.

I've been following this comic since the fricking cherry tree chapter. I'm a platinum-tier lurker, if such a thing exists.

[Runningflame]

This forum, last three updates: Paz is terrible This is the worst Ugh I hate this chapter Tom you're better than this

This forum, today: Zimmy and Gamma gosh golly It's Zimmy and Gamma I love you Tom You're the best

(Don't get me wrong, Zimmy's my favorite too. I cheered when I saw her. )

Jan 16, 2020 17:08:38 GMT strangebloke1 said:

Paz sees Kat as a pure and sweet 'giver' and everyone else as a 'taker' with Annie being the worst offender.

And to some extent she's right. Annie and Kat are two very socially stunted people who only really had each other as friends for a long period. Annie neither understands how to express her own emotions (leading to her exploding and burning everything) nor is she particularly good at reading other people's emotions. She's not selfish, she just honestly doesn't get people. Kat... either out of pride or out of low self-esteem (or both) never, never talks about her own problems. Every time she's feeling down for one reason or another she prioritizes helping other people over fixing her own issues. If you go back to Katurday, you'll see that her entire day is pretty much completely devoted to solving other people's problems.

But the BIGGEST thing that Paz is missing is the mystical side of things. Everything I said about Kat and Annie's relationship holds true in the court, but in the forest or other mystical areas, their roles are reversed. Kat is the well-meaning but clueless person who sometimes causes huge damage unintentionally (like the looming thing with the robots, or the thing with the computer summoning an 'arbiter') whereas Annie is the empathetic person who dedicates huge amounts of time and effort to helping people.

That's what you need to know to 'get' Kat and Annie. You have to see how they operate in both domains. They're actually very similar people with completely different areas of expertise, which is why they get along so well.

Great points! Makes me think of the imagery suggesting that Kat and Annie have corresponding attributes. (See also: last panel here.)

One thing I'm thinking about (mainly in reference to Kat, but now I'm wondering about Annie as well): As you say, Kat spends a lot of her time solving other people's problems. Is it because she's interested in helping people (and she has to solve the problems to do so)? Or, is it because she's interested in solving problems (and the fact that doing so helps people is a nice bonus)? I lean toward the latter (see exhibit A, B, C where she was interested in solving a problem just for the sake of solving it, not particularly helping anybody)--although I may be projecting myself onto Kat there. However, I believe Paz is much more interested in the helping people side. We can see this contrast here: Kat is focused and excited about what she's doing, while Paz asks the ship about its motivations and ultimately condemns the project because Lindsey is a married woman.

This difference between Kat and Paz may contribute to the current misunderstanding. Paz sees Kat obsessed with something and assumes that Kat's whole motivation is helping Annie, because that's what Paz's motivation would be in a similar situation. But while Kat is certainly motivated by helping Annie, she's also driven by the thrill of the problem she's solving. All Paz sees is "She tries very hard for you."

That being said, if Paz is right about the recent change in Kat's level of obsession with her work, it does seem that the circumstances have something to do with it.

Jan 17, 2020 6:07:38 GMT basser said:

Another thing I noticed which might help explain Paz's behavior somewhat is that she was implied to have seen Kat's hyperdimensional robot goddess form at the end of Torn Sea. In which case Paz freaking out about Annie upsetting Kat might not be entirely childish nonsense - as far as Paz knows, Kat has the capacity to transform into some kind of incomprehensible cosmic horror when severely pissed off. Gives her oddly desperate anger a bit more of a defined shape, I think.

Ooh, great point!

[strangebloke1]

Jan 17, 2020 18:30:16 GMT Runningflame said:

This forum, last three updates: Paz is terrible This is the worst Ugh I hate this chapter Tom you're better than this

This forum, today: Zimmy and Gamma gosh golly It's Zimmy and Gamma I love you Tom You're the best

(Don't get me wrong, Zimmy's my favorite too. I cheered when I saw her. )

I don't know, I didn't see lots of Tomhate in the last few pages.

But yeah, its been a rough.... year? Things have been rough for a long time now and there's no end in sight.

Jan 17, 2020 18:30:16 GMT Runningflame said:

Great points! Makes me think of the imagery suggesting that Kat and Annie have corresponding attributes. (See also: last panel here.)

One thing I'm thinking about (mainly in reference to Kat, but now I'm wondering about Annie as well): As you say, Kat spends a lot of her time solving other people's problems. Is it because she's interested in helping people (and she has to solve the problems to do so)? Or, is it because she's interested in solving problems (and the fact that doing so helps people is a nice bonus)? I lean toward the latter (see exhibit A, B, C where she was interested in solving a problem just for the sake of solving it, not particularly helping anybody)--although I may be projecting myself onto Kat there. However, I believe Paz is much more interested in the helping people side. We can see this contrast here: Kat is focused and excited about what she's doing, while Paz asks the ship about its motivations and ultimately condemns the project because Lindsey is a married woman.

This difference between Kat and Paz may contribute to the current misunderstanding. Paz sees Kat obsessed with something and assumes that Kat's whole motivation is helping Annie, because that's what Paz's motivation would be in a similar situation. But while Kat is certainly motivated by helping Annie, she's also driven by the thrill of the problem she's solving. All Paz sees is "She tries very hard for you."

That being said, if Paz is right about the recent change in Kat's level of obsession with her work, it does seem that the circumstances have something to do with it.

I don't think its fair to say that Kat is primarily interested in solving problems. She does enjoy solving problems, but she also cares deeply about the people she's trying to help. Her attempt to reconcile Annie with Kat doesn't work because Anthony gets all stiff, but when Annie is happy anyway Kat shares in the happiness. Another good example from that same chapter is this one. Kat gets interrupted at the last minute with a tedious IT problem and she's more than happy to help.

[Polyhymnia]

Jan 17, 2020 19:10:06 GMT strangebloke1 said:

Jan 17, 2020 18:30:16 GMT Runningflame said:

This forum, last three updates: Paz is terrible This is the worst Ugh I hate this chapter Tom you're better than this

This forum, today: Zimmy and Gamma gosh golly It's Zimmy and Gamma I love you Tom You're the best

(Don't get me wrong, Zimmy's my favorite too. I cheered when I saw her. )

I don't know, I didn't see lots of Tomhate in the last few pages.

But yeah, its been a rough.... year? Things have been rough for a long time now and there's no end in sight.

Jan 17, 2020 18:30:16 GMT Runningflame said:

Great points! Makes me think of the imagery suggesting that Kat and Annie have corresponding attributes. (See also: last panel here.)

One thing I'm thinking about (mainly in reference to Kat, but now I'm wondering about Annie as well): As you say, Kat spends a lot of her time solving other people's problems. Is it because she's interested in helping people (and she has to solve the problems to do so)? Or, is it because she's interested in solving problems (and the fact that doing so helps people is a nice bonus)? I lean toward the latter (see exhibit A, B, C where she was interested in solving a problem just for the sake of solving it, not particularly helping anybody)--although I may be projecting myself onto Kat there. However, I believe Paz is much more interested in the helping people side. We can see this contrast here: Kat is focused and excited about what she's doing, while Paz asks the ship about its motivations and ultimately condemns the project because Lindsey is a married woman.

This difference between Kat and Paz may contribute to the current misunderstanding. Paz sees Kat obsessed with something and assumes that Kat's whole motivation is helping Annie, because that's what Paz's motivation would be in a similar situation. But while Kat is certainly motivated by helping Annie, she's also driven by the thrill of the problem she's solving. All Paz sees is "She tries very hard for you."

That being said, if Paz is right about the recent change in Kat's level of obsession with her work, it does seem that the circumstances have something to do with it.

I don't think its fair to say that Kat is primarily interested in solving problems. She does enjoy solving problems, but she also cares deeply about the people she's trying to help. Her attempt to reconcile Annie with Kat doesn't work because Anthony gets all stiff, but when Annie is happy anyway Kat shares in the happiness. Another good example from that same chapter is this one. Kat gets interrupted at the last minute with a tedious IT problem and she's more than happy to help.

This shows that Kat can be deeply affected by the situations of other people. Finding out what the court did to Jeanne deeply disturbed her, so I do think she does care about helping people and takes personal responsibility for problems she didn’t cause. I also think back to when she punched Muut for Annie because she was angry at the way Annie had to take her mother into the ether. Saving Annie when she fell also wasn’t about whether or not it was possible to make a floating ship. She seems to be quite sensitive and emotionally in tune with the people she cares about. However, she does love problem solving for its own sake, like when she figured out the code for the robots. In the Jeanne plot, Parley seems in it entirely for the sake of Jeanne, but for Kat the problem seems framed in two ways: one, to atone for the horrible thing the court did to Jeanne, and two, because Annie asked her and she wanted to take on the challenge.

[madjack]

Jan 16, 2020 17:08:38 GMT strangebloke1 said:

But the BIGGEST thing that Paz is missing is the mystical side of things. Everything I said about Kat and Annie's relationship holds true in the court, but in the forest or other mystical areas, their roles are reversed. Kat is the well-meaning but clueless person who sometimes causes huge damage unintentionally (like the looming thing with the robots, or the thing with the computer summoning an 'arbiter') whereas Annie is the empathetic person who dedicates huge amounts of time and effort to helping people.

That's what you need to know to 'get' Kat and Annie. You have to see how they operate in both domains. They're actually very similar people with completely different areas of expertise, which is why they get along so well.

The question that follows this is how can Paz be filled in on this side of Annie and her time in the Forest she hasn't seen but the audience has. Since anything Annie says in her defence isn't going to really going to convince someone who's already made up their mind, and Paz probably doesn't know Anthony well enough to know he would probably be as honest as he could defending his daughter, that leaves Smitty as the only person besides possibly Jones who's seen Annie in action as medium and is the closest thing to a neutral external party as could be found. Let's hope they have a chance to talk sometime soon.

What worries me more than the fight is if the rumor Annie is behind everything going wrong is gaining traction to the point where it stops being rumor and starts being believed.

[Runningflame]

Jan 18, 2020 11:03:33 GMT madjack said:

What worries me more than the fight is if the rumor Annie is behind everything going wrong is gaining traction to the point where it stops being rumor and starts being believed.

... And then people who believe it die and go into the ether and it becomes true.

[pyradonis]

Jan 17, 2020 18:30:16 GMT Runningflame said:

One thing I'm thinking about (mainly in reference to Kat, but now I'm wondering about Annie as well): As you say, Kat spends a lot of her time solving other people's problems. Is it because she's interested in helping people (and she has to solve the problems to do so)? Or, is it because she's interested in solving problems (and the fact that doing so helps people is a nice bonus)? I lean toward the latter (see exhibit A, B, C where she was interested in solving a problem just for the sake of solving it, not particularly helping anybody)--although I may be projecting myself onto Kat there.

Eh. Enjoying solving complex problems is a trait most people who are good at science and technology share, and probably one of the traits the Court looks for when recruiting. This is rather influencing the way she goes about helping others. For example, if she had different interests but still wanted to help the robots, she might not try to build new bodies but instead lobby for them to get new bodies supplied by the Court.

[todd]

Jan 18, 2020 15:35:24 GMT Runningflame said:

Jan 18, 2020 11:03:33 GMT madjack said:

What worries me more than the fight is if the rumor Annie is behind everything going wrong is gaining traction to the point where it stops being rumor and starts being believed.

... And then people who believe it die and go into the ether and it becomes true.

It struck me after reading that that there's one potential problem with that theory about the ether; if you have two mutually exclusive beliefs held by an equal amount of dead people who've gone into the ether, which one prevails?

[philistine21]

Jan 19, 2020 0:15:03 GMT todd said:

Jan 18, 2020 15:35:24 GMT Runningflame said:

... And then people who believe it die and go into the ether and it becomes true.

It struck me after reading that that there's one potential problem with that theory about the ether; if you have two mutually exclusive beliefs held by an equal amount of dead people who've gone into the ether, which one prevails?

There are multiple competing beliefs about the stars and they're somehow all true

[saardvark]

Jan 19, 2020 0:18:33 GMT philistine21 said:

Jan 19, 2020 0:15:03 GMT todd said:

It struck me after reading that that there's one potential problem with that theory about the ether; if you have two mutually exclusive beliefs held by an equal amount of dead people who've gone into the ether, which one prevails?

There are multiple competing beliefs about the stars and they're somehow all true

Yup.  I bet if you have two equally held (or even unequally held) mutually exclusive beliefs, they BOTH prevail.  One group sees their belief, the other sees theirs and BOTH are correct.  

[Runningflame]

Jan 19, 2020 0:15:03 GMT todd said:

Jan 18, 2020 15:35:24 GMT Runningflame said:

... And then people who believe it die and go into the ether and it becomes true.

It struck me after reading that that there's one potential problem with that theory about the ether; if you have two mutually exclusive beliefs held by an equal amount of dead people who've gone into the ether, which one prevails?

... Both, apparently. Who put the stars in the sky?

(EDIT: Ninja'd by philistine21 and saardvark )

The Coyote-Jones-Antimony theory seems to be: human beliefs and stories, combined with the ether, have tremendous power to shape the world. Annie mentions that cultures' beliefs have always shaped their actions, and therefore affected reality. Consider how differing beliefs work in that case: Each culture's beliefs affect their lives, and also to some extent the lives of those who interact with them. I think we could say the same for ether-powered beliefs. Picture a ripple effect, where originally it's (e.g.) just people in China who have any interactions with Chang'e, but over time her influence spreads, to the point where she can show up at Gunnerkrigg Court eventually.

So in answer to your original question, I think the people who held Belief A would find that Belief A is true, and the people who held belief B would find that Belief B is true. Eventually, if the two groups interact, there could be some changing and combining of beliefs, like how the French Renard and Ysengrin are now hanging out with the Native American Coyote. Beliefs made real by the ether seem to take on a life of their own. The man in the desert just thought that there must be a Coyote god; I'll bet he never guessed that Coyote would one day become a dead goose in a bush next to a lake.