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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jan 13, 2020 18:21:52 GMT
Welcome to the forum, mitten ! I'm not sure Paz is thinking, right now. Just reacting to her internal feelings/insecurities. If she does have a plan, then maybe one of the Beckys is a water-type. That's what I'd do, if I was going to angrily confront two Annies. But again, I'm not sure Paz is really thinking right now. More just feeling out loud. I'm just hoping this doesn't end with Paz "Squirrel Girling" them with a swarm of animals. That could end with the Twins running into the night, being attack by random woodland creatures, or them fireballing a bunch of alley rats. Either way, not a good look for the Annies. Nah. Even if Paz has completely lost it I think she instinctively understands that if she (Paz) escalates this to physical violence she's going to lose big across the board. At worse she might be able to get away with a slap when one of the Antimonies "talks back" to her but unless that manages to provoke a completely disproportionate reaction from Antimonies and Paz frames the response perfectly it still casts her in a bad light as the one who ambushed Antimonies and started "it." Reading this page made me go through Dealing with HER again. Notice how Paz is taking cover behind Janet when Annie F first appears. Notice that she only confronts her when their window for conversation is small enough that Annie cannot reply. And how she hides behind Kat once the opportunity appears. And for this meeting she brought back-up. It makes me wonder: does she fear Annie? As readers we are privy to all of Annie's adventures and her personality and know that she really isn't dangerous. Annie probably relays most of the parts that Kat doesn't experience to Kat. Paz, though? She'll either have to trust second-hand information from Kat or infer from their encounters. And there might be reasons to fear her. In particular now that she's living in a war zone. Annie has acknowledged herself that she might be making people nervous. Then again, this page might be pointing towards me speaking out of my behind. She may be afraid of what will happen to her relationship with Kat because of Antimonies but I don't think Paz is afraid of Antimonies physically. Check out the last panel of #2098. Paz managed to threaten Fannie without giving her any chance to respond and without any of the other kids noticing and she's smiling about it. If she was worried about her physical safety but felt compelled to threaten an Antimony anyway she'd want the mutual friends as witnesses and backup. Paz doesn't want the mutual friends to witness what she's doing now because I think she knows she's being unreasonable. She wants cherrypicked friends who aren't close to Antimonies who she can spoonfeed her version of events beforehand. So, everyone sucks? Yup, they do, mostly because they're all under an incredible amount of stress. Also they're kids. They're all still figuring out stuff. I do like that Paz is wearing a gray, muted kinda-schoolgirl-ish jumper thingy with clunky shoes. Don't know if that is deliberately symbolic, but it feels like it. It is probably her most super-cereal outfit short of funeral attire, carefully selected for passing judgement on the wrongdoers. |
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Post by mitten on Jan 13, 2020 18:39:46 GMT
Even if it were true that Kat is overworking to the point of not eating, sleeping properly etc, I would argue that there are at least two important characters far better qualified than Annie to both notice it and do something about it. Kat is still legally a minor, correct? An only child of two loving and highly competent and intelligent parents, who presumably still live with her, which Annnie doesn't and who can observe her daily habits. If Donnie and Anja haven't noticed anything wrong, then how is Annie supposed to, especially if Kat is going out of her way to hide it from her? The Court seems to really want the kids to be used to being separate from their parents. Even in times of non-emergency, they were living in their own apartments, outlandish dorms etc from quite young ages to the point that's it might as well be a boarding school. In the current situation, she still lives separately from them.It isn't unrealistic that Anja might pop by every now and then like she seemed to back in the early days of Kat's workshop, but if Kat's been hiding her inner side from Annie then she might be hiding it from her parents as well.
(Also, welcome to the forums!)
Thanks!  You're right, I'd forgotten they currently live separately. I do think my point still stands though, and that if there's serious cause for concern her parents ought to have noticed something. Presumably they at least check in on a regular basis. (Personally I don't actually think either Annie or the Donlans are being negligent as such, I suspect Kat is very good at hiding the fact she's overworking.) |
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Post by bicarbonat on Jan 13, 2020 18:44:15 GMT
Reading this page made me go through Dealing with HER again. Notice how Paz is taking cover behind Janet when Annie F first appears. Notice that she only confronts her when their window for conversation is small enough that Annie cannot reply. And how she hides behind Kat once the opportunity appears. And for this meeting she brought back-up. It makes me wonder: does she fear Annie? As readers we are privy to all of Annie's adventures and her personality and know that she really isn't dangerous. Annie probably relays most of the parts that Kat doesn't experience to Kat. Paz, though? She'll either have to trust second-hand information from Kat or infer from their encounters. And there might be reasons to fear her. In particular now that she's living in a war zone. Annie has acknowledged herself that she might be making people nervous.Then again, this page might be pointing towards me speaking out of my behind. I think she does fear Annie, but not necessarily only because of her powers. Right after the bowling incident, she’s perfectly cordial. www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1635At that point in time she seems comfortable around Annie. But that’s when they’re planning to set Annie up with Winsbury, so that makes me think fear isn’t the primary motivator, since she wasn’t a relationship threat at that point in time. She’s threatened by Annie, but not primarily because of her power. She seemed cool after the "come to Jesus" moment that went awry - giving a thumbs up and all. But that was before Kat found out that her "real" Annie was lost. Also, slightly o/t, but I wonder if Paz ever found out about the Annies' "I could snap her like a twig" comment... Cvet definitely overheard it, hiding in the wings as she was, and if there were any small critters down there... |
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Post by gergle on Jan 13, 2020 19:42:57 GMT
OK, lots of comments, not going to even make an attempt at replying to anything specific.
My take, Tony having failed in his try at slipping his mind control drug to Annie in the stairway, and mind controlled Kat not being sufficient to his plans, has added Paz to his mind slave collection.
"Paz, I need you to attack Annie, up to and including getting yourself crisped. Try to drive a wedge between Annie and Kat. Teenage girls being contrary, this will drive them closer together. Kat will convince Annie that I am right,was right all along, and drinking this convenient (drug laced) cup of tea is the best thing you could do right now.
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Post by flowsthead on Jan 13, 2020 20:21:13 GMT
Reading this page made me go through Dealing with HER again. Notice how Paz is taking cover behind Janet when Annie F first appears. Notice that she only confronts her when their window for conversation is small enough that Annie cannot reply. And how she hides behind Kat once the opportunity appears. And for this meeting she brought back-up. It makes me wonder: does she fear Annie? As readers we are privy to all of Annie's adventures and her personality and know that she really isn't dangerous. Annie probably relays most of the parts that Kat doesn't experience to Kat. Paz, though? She'll either have to trust second-hand information from Kat or infer from their encounters. And there might be reasons to fear her. In particular now that she's living in a war zone. Annie has acknowledged herself that she might be making people nervous. Then again, this page might be pointing towards me speaking out of my behind. She may be afraid of what will happen to her relationship with Kat because of Antimonies but I don't think Paz is afraid of Antimonies physically. Check out the last panel of #2098. Paz managed to threaten Fannie without giving her any chance to respond and without any of the other kids noticing and she's smiling about it. If she was worried about her physical safety but felt compelled to threaten an Antimony anyway she'd want the mutual friends as witnesses and backup. Paz doesn't want the mutual friends to witness what she's doing now because I think she knows she's being unreasonable. She wants cherrypicked friends who aren't close to Antimonies who she can spoonfeed her version of events beforehand. If this interpretation is correct, then Paz comes off much worse than in any of the others. That is super manipulative, and pretty much by itself deserving of being broken up with. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jan 13, 2020 20:22:10 GMT
My take, Tony having failed in his try at slipping his mind control drug to Annie in the stairway, and mind controlled Kat not being sufficient to his plans, has added Paz to his mind slave collection. Hmm... You know, if a few years down the road Paz remains convinced that Antimony was responsible for wrecking her love with Paz, dating Anthony would be an interesting way to get revenge. |
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Post by bedinsis on Jan 13, 2020 20:52:58 GMT
I reread Dealing with HER again. I wish to reformulate what I believe: in that chapter Paz was actually scared of Annie F. It has been said that people in general thought she was some sort of imposter, and they originally wanted to stage a kidnapping but worried she might put them on fire. What I previously interpreted as signs for Paz subtly looking for cover during the chapter stands. Note also that she called Annie F "whatever you are" meaning she wasn't fully onboard with accepting her as a "real" Annie. Welcome to the forum, mitten ! Reading this page made me go through Dealing with HER again. Notice how Paz is taking cover behind Janet when Annie F first appears. Notice that she only confronts her when their window for conversation is small enough that Annie cannot reply. And how she hides behind Kat once the opportunity appears. And for this meeting she brought back-up. It makes me wonder: does she fear Annie? As readers we are privy to all of Annie's adventures and her personality and know that she really isn't dangerous. Annie probably relays most of the parts that Kat doesn't experience to Kat. Paz, though? She'll either have to trust second-hand information from Kat or infer from their encounters. And there might be reasons to fear her. In particular now that she's living in a war zone. Annie has acknowledged herself that she might be making people nervous. Then again, this page might be pointing towards me speaking out of my behind. She may be afraid of what will happen to her relationship with Kat because of Antimonies but I don't think Paz is afraid of Antimonies physically. Check out the last panel of #2098. Paz managed to threaten Fannie without giving her any chance to respond and without any of the other kids noticing and she's smiling about it. If she was worried about her physical safety but felt compelled to threaten an Antimony anyway she'd want the mutual friends as witnesses and backup. The way I see it, having now reread it again, was that she made the judgment call that Annie F was potentially an imposter. A reading that would be awkward to act on if she was alone in the judgment call, and a reading that could potentially be totally wrong. She therefore made sure to let Annie F know where she stood, with a threat that would work no matter what, and still managed to bring her sentiments across. EDIT: Also, I just noticed how Becky Ground seemed to be staring in chock at Paz when she threw her tantrum on the last page, followed by her casting nervous sideways glances at her friend in the next panel. She probably thinks Paz is acting out of the line. |
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Post by machiavelli33 on Jan 13, 2020 22:49:58 GMT
Paz is surely a firebrand.
Which is funny, cause the person she's being a firebrand at is a *literal* firebrand.
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Post by fia on Jan 14, 2020 1:46:20 GMT
Ugh man, I dislike being awoken to the fact that these characters are in fact teenagers, but you gotta live with the fictional reality.
What I really dread: Paz possibly trying to intentionally goad Annie into hurting her or something. You know she can. She knows her buttons because Kat talks about Annie so much. And doing something to Paz would definitely set Kat off and cause a real rift between the Annies and Kat.
I really can't help but keep feeling like all these things are bad omens and we have been due for a best friends fight. It's not going to be cute.
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Post by fia on Jan 14, 2020 1:51:17 GMT
On the other hand, Kat is truly and really a best friend forever to Annie. It would be super hard to get them to fight. Kat is staying up and freaking out because she thinks her best friend is lost in an alternate timeline.
But she may not think these Annies are *her* Annie, and that could cause some issues.
I also get the feeling Kat hasn't told Paz everything about Annie. Like, for example, how she may be due to join the Psychopomps, maybe a lot of anything about Annie's mom, and probably not a lot either about Coyote or Ysengrin or Loup, and perhaps only marginally something about Jeanne (because let's face it, if Paz knew Kat might die it would be a shitstorm).
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Post by mturtle7 on Jan 14, 2020 2:07:15 GMT
I would say attacking your partner's friends after being explicitly told not to by said partner is always unreasonable. Since reading the posts that came up when I was typing this I would have to agree. I just want the fighting to stop  ruthie Tired & stressed from all the Paz-Annie-Kat drama here? Then join me, and together we can redirect all the forum's attention onto the single most important character in the comic: Becky Ground.
Regarding the latest page, I totally laughed my head off over the meaningful exchange of glances in the first panel. My interpretation:
"WOAH. Hazel, what do we DO?! This is totally crazy, Paz is - " "Becky, I am going to stand here and wait for them to finish because this literally doesn't matter to me in the slightest. If you want to do something, knock yourself out. There is no 'we'." Comedy gold, fellas. Just what you'd expect from the two main protagonists of the comic (Hazel is my nickname for Unnamed Brown-haired Girl, BTW, in case that wasn't clear).
Although, it does actually get pretty poignant by the fifth panel there...poor Becky really wants to defend the Annies right now, but can't quite bring herself to openly cut in on her friend's big speech. It's even more tragic if you're an old BeckyxAnnie shipper like me. WHY can't you ever stand up for your true feelings, Becky?! WHYYYYYYY?! They made such a beautiful connection back at the Residential! But no, now she's just going to stand awkwardly behind someone else and stare longingly at the Annies while their whole relationship goes down the toilet. Classic Becky, I guess. Always hiding in the background somewhere while the important stuff is happening.
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Post by mturtle7 on Jan 14, 2020 2:19:43 GMT
Also, I just noticed how Becky Ground seemed to be staring in chock at Paz when she threw her tantrum on the last page, followed by her casting nervous sideways glances at her friend in the next panel. She probably thinks Paz is acting out of the line. Psht. What, you only just noticed? I appreciate ANY attention given to my favorite blond, of course, but you're a bit slow there, my friend. |
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Post by warrl on Jan 14, 2020 2:35:28 GMT
Even as Kat's gf, does Paz have the right to overrule Kat on who Kat's friends are? In general, a "that person goes, or I go" ultimatum should draw the response "okay, if that's the way you want it then goodbye". It seems that Paz got that response, and is now at "if I can make that person go away on my own, then I'll get my girlfriend back" - which isn't a good bet, because (a) the effort to make that person go away is unlikely to succeed, (b) even if that part works, it's unlikely to get the girlfriend back, and (c) if the girlfriend learns of the effort, she'll probably be even more angry. |
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Post by pyradonis on Jan 14, 2020 3:09:21 GMT
My take, Tony having failed in his try at slipping his mind control drug to Annie in the stairway, and mind controlled Kat not being sufficient to his plans, has added Paz to his mind slave collection. Hmm... You know, if a few years down the road Paz remains convinced that Antimony was responsible for wrecking her love with Paz, dating Anthony would be an interesting way to get revenge. It would take some really hard drugs to make Paz believe that Annie wrecked Paz' love with Paz, and Paz never really getting over how she broke up with herself. ;P
I really can't help but keep feeling like all these things are bad omens and we have been due for a best friends fight. It's not going to be cute. If I had a Euro (I would also take Dollars, Yen or Swiss Franks) for every time someone predicted a big fight between Annie and Kat coming up (not the case here; but bonus points if it included a war between Court and Forest), I... would not be exactly rich, but I surely would not need to work a job this year. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jan 14, 2020 5:04:01 GMT
Ugh man, I dislike being awoken to the fact that these characters are in fact teenagers, but you gotta live with the fictional reality. I would have been fine with it if the characters had remained kids and just kept having drama-free adventures. It would take some really hard drugs to make Paz believe that Annie wrecked Paz' love with Paz, and Paz never really getting over how she broke up with herself. ;P Some people have a strong tendency toward believing whatever's convenient or makes them feel good. No worries, if Paz revenge-dates Anthony then the Antimonies can revenge-date Paz's dad and then we'll have a real telenovela going. |
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Post by darklao on Jan 14, 2020 5:55:56 GMT
Yeah, Paz is not being cool, but shit the comments on the comic are gross.
I thought this fanbase was a little better than that.
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Post by kayback on Jan 14, 2020 6:52:52 GMT
Yeah, Paz is not being cool, but shit the comments on the comic are gross. I thought this fanbase was a little better than that. Um maybe I'm missing context but what gross comments are making you doubt the fanbase? |
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Post by Sky Schemer on Jan 14, 2020 7:19:18 GMT
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Post by antiyonder on Jan 14, 2020 7:27:37 GMT
I think Kayback was asking for a pasting of specific comments. I skimmed through earlier myself, but didn't note any you might be referring to.
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Post by Sky Schemer on Jan 14, 2020 7:36:48 GMT
I think Kayback was asking for a pasting of specific comments. I skimmed through earlier myself, but didn't note any you might be referring to. You mean other than the person who called her a c**t? |
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Post by antiyonder on Jan 14, 2020 7:52:23 GMT
Like I admitted, I skimmed it.
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Post by madjack on Jan 14, 2020 10:06:17 GMT
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Post by migrantworker on Jan 14, 2020 10:21:25 GMT
On a different subject... Tony. Worried about his daughter being duplicated. Puts on a happy face regardless. ...but only for one of the daughters. Capable of, and willing to, use deception for the sake of satisfying his curiosity. Generally happy to use friends as test subjects. (Yes, I know what happens later on the page; but at the time of making the suggestion, Tony does not seem to see Surma as a romantic interest.) Sounds a lot like Kat, doesn't it? Oh, and he has worked with Kat as well (Edit: and they did it in secret). They are kinda friends, even. Does Tony know what's troubling Kat? It's not suggested anywhere in the comic. But does he? |
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Post by kayback on Jan 14, 2020 13:55:43 GMT
I think Kayback was asking for a pasting of specific comments. I skimmed through earlier myself, but didn't note any you might be referring to. You mean other than the person who called her a c**t? Eh I stopped reading those comments chapters ago. I thought they were talking about in this topic. I gotta agree with that comment though. Paz is being very rude. I get teenage angst and I get Paz may be trying to look out for her girl but she's literally talking to two versions of a time split person from different realities. It's not unfair of them to consider themselves the protagonists of this event. |
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Post by worldsong on Jan 14, 2020 14:04:16 GMT
I think Kayback was asking for a pasting of specific comments. I skimmed through earlier myself, but didn't note any you might be referring to. I found at least one comment of someone who apparently fully agreed with Paz to the point of ending their comment (addressed to Annie) with "Get your stuff together or get out."
Given the implications I'd consider that at least somewhat disturbing.
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Post by Runningflame on Jan 14, 2020 16:11:11 GMT
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Post by pyradonis on Jan 14, 2020 16:13:20 GMT
Ugh man, I dislike being awoken to the fact that these characters are in fact teenagers, but you gotta live with the fictional reality. I would have been fine with it if the characters had remained kids and just kept having drama-free adventures. I assume you mean relationship drama? Because in general, drama (including tears) came up the first time on page 26, chapter 2. I think Kayback was asking for a pasting of specific comments. I skimmed through earlier myself, but didn't note any you might be referring to. I found at least one comment of someone who apparently fully agreed with Paz to the point of ending their comment (addressed to Annie) with "Get your stuff together or get out." Given the implications I'd consider that at least somewhat disturbing.
There are 223 comments under the comic. Statistics alone demand you cannot expect that large number of people to all be of the same opinion. Even if most of us would agree it is obvious which fictional character is wrong (in her aggressive conclusion and implied demand). |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jan 14, 2020 16:58:05 GMT
I would have been fine with it if the characters had remained kids and just kept having drama-free adventures. I assume you mean relationship drama? Because in general, drama (including tears) came up the first time on page 26, chapter 2. I was using the slang definition of which the key aspect is irrational response(s) to problems real or imagined, characterized by a desire to achieve impossible and/or mutually exclusive outcomes, typically leading to actions that have disproportionate impacts on innocent bystanders. It's true that Paz hasn't proclaimed a specific demand yet this time (aside from be quiet/don't speak of talking to Kat) but Paz bringing along a cherry-picked support crew is what I'd point at as evidence of current drama taking place. It may sound odd for someone currently writing a thesis on fictional-universe etheric metaphysics to say this but I'm not big on magical thinking.  I found at least one comment of someone who apparently fully agreed with Paz to the point of ending their comment (addressed to Annie) with "Get your stuff together or get out." Given the implications I'd consider that at least somewhat disturbing.
There are 223 comments under the comic. Statistics alone demand you cannot expect that large number of people to all be of the same opinion. Even if most of us would agree it is obvious which fictional character is wrong (in her aggressive conclusion and implied demand). Much like trash pandas in a forest, a healthy population of trolls indicates a healthy internet ecosystem. Also: Sometimes it's fun to sit back and just watch the trolls dance. |
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Post by darlos9d on Jan 14, 2020 18:23:02 GMT
I feel like at this point this is the only side of Paz, which I think is the issue. She kinda the entered the picture of the story in a bigger way by becoming Kat's girlfriend and then... didn't get a ton of really valuable onscreen time. And now she's just angry. And has been for a while, ever since she threatened Annie that first time. With Red and (not)Blue they were already established as being kind of... weird, and dumb, to be blunt. Their ultimate behavior wasn't completely out of the question. Paz on the other hand was always just sorta Generic Supporting Character, both before and after getting together with Kat. Swinging from that to "completely unreasonable" feels... unearned. It's not really "more real" when we don't have much else to contrast it with. As usual I'll see where this goes, but man I wish there was more to Paz than... this. "Read the extended universe material" is never a good answer. The core comic should stand effectively on its own. If this is important, then it should have been a chapter in the main comic in some fashion. |
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Post by pyradonis on Jan 15, 2020 2:27:08 GMT
"Read the extended universe material" is never a good answer. The core comic should stand effectively on its own. If this is important, then it should have been a chapter in the main comic in some fashion. Fine, I should have pointed to this chapter instead. |
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I'm not sure Paz is thinking, right now. Just reacting to her internal feelings/insecurities. If she does have a plan, then maybe one of the Beckys is a water-type. That's what I'd do, if I was going to angrily confront two Annies. But again, I'm not sure Paz is really thinking right now. More just feeling out loud. I'm just hoping this doesn't end with Paz "Squirrel Girling" them with a swarm of animals. That could end with the Twins running into the night, being attack by random woodland creatures, or them fireballing a bunch of alley rats. Either way, not a good look for the Annies.
Reading this page made me go through Dealing with HER again. Notice how Paz is taking cover behind Janet when Annie F first appears. Notice that she only confronts her when their window for conversation is small enough that Annie cannot reply. And how she hides behind Kat once the opportunity appears. And for this meeting she brought back-up. It makes me wonder: does she fear Annie? As readers we are privy to all of Annie's adventures and her personality and know that she really isn't dangerous. Annie probably relays most of the parts that Kat doesn't experience to Kat. Paz, though? She'll either have to trust second-hand information from Kat or infer from their encounters. And there might be reasons to fear her. In particular now that she's living in a war zone. Annie has acknowledged herself that she might be making people nervous. Then again, this page might be pointing towards me speaking out of my behind.
So, everyone sucks? Yup, they do, mostly because they're all under an incredible amount of stress.
I do like that Paz is wearing a gray, muted kinda-schoolgirl-ish jumper thingy with clunky shoes. Don't know if that is deliberately symbolic, but it feels like it.
You're right, I'd forgotten they currently live separately. I do think my point still stands though, and that if there's serious cause for concern her parents ought to have noticed something. Presumably they at least check in on a regular basis. (Personally I don't actually think either Annie or the Donlans are being negligent as such, I suspect Kat is very good at hiding the fact she's overworking.) 
