thor
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Post by thor on Jan 29, 2019 3:09:00 GMT
I literally have not posted here in years, but I just popped in because I wanted to ask if anyone else has the same theory that I do--that Antimony was *always* two people, which is why Tony could never be himself around her because there was always three people in the room.
I mean, this seems glaringly obvious to me, since we just had the chapter a little while ago about when Robo-Tony turns into Real-Tony, and Antimony making a point to say he was never Real-Tony around her, even when they were alone together. Also, this is not Antimony's first experience with duality.
Am I off-base here, or is this the general consensus? I'd read back through the threads, but I'm buried in work, and I'm stealing this bit of time just because I gotta know. Thanks in advance.
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Post by tulicloure on Jan 29, 2019 3:13:09 GMT
Now they turn around, just to see a huge queue of more Annies along the cellar. "You know, our Annie has been quite a help here in the Court for the past months. But once we saw another one show up, a perfect copy, we started to think: what if we had more of her?" |
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blackouthart
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Post by blackouthart on Jan 29, 2019 3:23:55 GMT
I literally have not posted here in years, but I just popped in because I wanted to ask if anyone else has the same theory that I do--that Antimony was *always* two people, which is why Tony could never be himself around her because there was always three people in the room. I mean, this seems glaringly obvious to me, since we just had the chapter a little while ago about when Robo-Tony turns into Real-Tony, and Antimony making a point to say he was never Real-Tony around her, even when they were alone together. Also, this is not Antimony's first experience with duality. Am I off-base here, or is this the general consensus? I'd read back through the threads, but I'm buried in work, and I'm stealing this bit of time just because I gotta know. Thanks in advance. I feel like this may have been mentioned in passing in past threads (edit: okay, I don’t think so, for this is the first I’ve heard of a “Annie has always been two people” theory) but is not the general consensus. Fascinating theory, though. I’m on board. |
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Post by todd on Jan 29, 2019 3:26:24 GMT
Here's another thought: Anja has a lie detector among her power suite, doesn't she? That might come in handy here, especially if it's also (been made into?) a program Kat can run on her computer. That won't be so useful if both Annies believe they're the real Annie (and from what I've seen so far, I'd consider that the most likely situation). |
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Post by madjack on Jan 29, 2019 3:34:24 GMT
Here's another thought: Anja has a lie detector among her power suite, doesn't she? That might come in handy here, especially if it's also (been made into?) a program Kat can run on her computer. That won't be so useful if both Annies believe they're the real Annie (and from what I've seen so far, I'd consider that the most likely situation). Ruling out if one or both are lying would go some way to proving that. They don't actually know anything at this point, aside from the Rey test and they both appear to have the fire. |
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Post by Gotolei on Jan 29, 2019 3:52:50 GMT
I literally have not posted here in years, but I just popped in because I wanted to ask if anyone else has the same theory that I do--that Antimony was *always* two people, which is why Tony could never be himself around her because there was always three people in the room. I mean, this seems glaringly obvious to me, since we just had the chapter a little while ago about when Robo-Tony turns into Real-Tony, and Antimony making a point to say he was never Real-Tony around her, even when they were alone together. Also, this is not Antimony's first experience with duality. Am I off-base here, or is this the general consensus? I'd read back through the threads, but I'm buried in work, and I'm stealing this bit of time just because I gotta know. Thanks in advance. I feel like this may have been mentioned in passing in past threads (edit: okay, I don’t think so, for this is the first I’ve heard of a “Annie has always been two people” theory) but is not the general consensus. Fascinating theory, though. I’m on board. If this duality is to mean that her human part and her fire part count separately, and Loup's actions split the two apart, I'm pretty sure that's come up a few times yeah. It's an interesting idea, but personally I never saw much weight in it. About Tony specifically, I'm thinking it's simply that the last six months have changed him. Tony was already warming up to Annie in Evac, right before that six months. Presumably he and (an) Annie have been living under the same roof for half a year, so one would expect they'd eventually end up breaking through an emotional barrier or two. Also, recall who Tony was telling the "I can't be myself around more than one other person" idea to. Surma. Wouldn't she have had the same two-in-one thing going on, if that were the case? |
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Post by novia on Jan 29, 2019 4:29:07 GMT
I literally have not posted here in years, but I just popped in because I wanted to ask if anyone else has the same theory that I do--that Antimony was *always* two people, which is why Tony could never be himself around her because there was always three people in the room. I mean, this seems glaringly obvious to me, since we just had the chapter a little while ago about when Robo-Tony turns into Real-Tony, and Antimony making a point to say he was never Real-Tony around her, even when they were alone together. Also, this is not Antimony's first experience with duality. Am I off-base here, or is this the general consensus? I'd read back through the threads, but I'm buried in work, and I'm stealing this bit of time just because I gotta know. Thanks in advance. I have had this theory, but I haven't written it up, and I haven't read anyone else with the theory (though it would probably be in the wild spec thread). An alternate explanation would be like, Tony's social awkwardness can somehow etherically sense if a person will become two people in the future. I like this theory because it would explain why Tony believed Fannie so quickly, assuming he is fully aware of his social limitations. Like, for 6 months, he was wondering why he was able to get along with his daughter so well, and then the second Annie shows up and he's like, "oh, of course, this explains everything" |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jan 29, 2019 6:43:05 GMT
That won't be so useful if both Annies believe they're the real Annie (and from what I've seen so far, I'd consider that the most likely situation). Ruling out if one or both are lying would go some way to proving that. They don't actually know anything at this point, aside from the Rey test and they both appear to have the fire. A measure of confidence that the Antimonies aren't lying might not be conclusive regarding who's real, since they have to assume there could be some sort of mimics who could get lost in the roles they play, but it would mean that they can relax a little around the Antimonies. If they think they're Antimony they wouldn't be any more dangerous than Antimony is normally, as long as nothing happens that could trigger the mimic's real personality to emerge... and being confronted by another Antimony would be the most likely thing that I can think of that could cause that. Just in case, I'd keep them away from the items that Fannie was sent to collect as well as stressful situations in general, outside of a controlled environment anyway. |
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Post by merry76 on Jan 29, 2019 7:25:20 GMT
What if its all just a dream, induced by Loups Forest magic? Neither the court nor courtney are real in that scenario, and all Frannie has to do is to tear down the veil and tell Loup to cut it out - for real this time.
It happened before that everything we saw was a made up illusion - the arc where zimmy went all out without sleep and dampening and to a point where the pixies fooled Jeanne. And if a pixie can do a small illusion, Loup can do big ones.
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Post by Runningflame on Jan 29, 2019 9:03:15 GMT
What if its all just a dream, induced by Loups Forest magic? Neither the court nor courtney are real in that scenario, and all Frannie has to do is to tear down the veil and tell Loup to cut it out - for real this time. It happened before that everything we saw was a made up illusion - the arc where zimmy went all out without sleep and dampening and to a point where the pixies fooled Jeanne. And if a pixie can do a small illusion, Loup can do big ones. I think it's been going on too long now for that. Previously, when there's been a "things aren't what they seem" storyline, it has always been resolved by the end of the chapter. (Even when that meant the chapter stretched to 70 pages.) We're now a chapter and a half into this storyline with no signs of it falling apart. If it turns out that the whole thing's not real after all that... there will be some rather ticked off readers. |
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fjodorii
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Post by fjodorii on Jan 29, 2019 9:17:15 GMT
What if its all just a dream, induced by Loups Forest magic? Neither the court nor courtney are real in that scenario, and all Frannie has to do is to tear down the veil and tell Loup to cut it out - for real this time. It happened before that everything we saw was a made up illusion - the arc where zimmy went all out without sleep and dampening and to a point where the pixies fooled Jeanne. And if a pixie can do a small illusion, Loup can do big ones. I hope it's not that, that would weaken the whole story.
The options that I see are:
1. Forest Annie is real, Court Annie is a fake, but not conscious that she is. Loup created her using part of his own etherical 'juice' and controls her every move and uses her as a spying 'object'
2. Forest Annie is real, Court Annie is a fake, and she knows that she is. She has her own control but is loyal to Loup and serves as a spy. 3. Court Annie is a full copy. This doesn't make her a fake Annie, she's just not the original Annie. She has full control over herself and is not aware of her being a copy
4. Court Annie is a different being altogether who can use a sort of glamour to make everyone believe she is Annie. She works for Loup.
Probably more scenarios out there for more creative minds but these are what I consider the most likely ones. If Court Annie was created by Loup just to make sure he could have all the time he needed with Forest Annie, then he could have 'erased' the copy. The Coyote part in him would have enjoyed the shock that would have created at the Court. But he didn't, so I suspect he keeps her there for a reason. If I were Kat, I would have deduced all of this by now, and I expect the room/dungeon where the Annies have been bipped into has some sort of Ether-shield to make sure Loup cannot interfere with whatever they are going to do to test which Annie is the real deal. Of the options I see, 1,2, and 4 would lead to the end of Court Annie. If option 3 is the right one, we'll have a complex story development ahead of us with loads of awkwardness.
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Post by Eily on Jan 29, 2019 10:25:39 GMT
I don't think I've seen that mentioned yet, but maybe the room is just a place where they are 100% sure that the Court can't monitor them. I wouldn't put it past Kat to immediatly simulate someone's signal (we know they're bugged) as soon as they enter the room. This would explain why they didn't tell Fannie exactly what they were planning. Also, someone noted that the closing mecanism seems to be on the inside, so that would be a good way to let Parley control who enters.
Speaking of Parley and spy-free room, they have mentioned the goose water and lake bone, but not the tooth yet; this would be the occasion.
The obvious hole in that theory is that Courtnie doesn't seem to know what's happening either, but maybe she has been kept out of that one for the very reason that upsets Paz so much?
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Post by pyradonis on Jan 29, 2019 12:20:43 GMT
Here's another thought: Anja has a lie detector among her power suite, doesn't she? That might come in handy here, especially if it's also (been made into?) a program Kat can run on her computer. I always thought it was an analysis of Renard's powers... I literally have not posted here in years, but I just popped in because I wanted to ask if anyone else has the same theory that I do--that Antimony was *always* two people, which is why Tony could never be himself around her because there was always three people in the room. I mean, this seems glaringly obvious to me, since we just had the chapter a little while ago about when Robo-Tony turns into Real-Tony, and Antimony making a point to say he was never Real-Tony around her, even when they were alone together. Also, this is not Antimony's first experience with duality. Am I off-base here, or is this the general consensus? I'd read back through the threads, but I'm buried in work, and I'm stealing this bit of time just because I gotta know. Thanks in advance. It is certainly not general consensus, but it is a cool theory. |
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Post by todd on Jan 29, 2019 12:41:39 GMT
If Court Annie was created by Loup just to make sure he could have all the time he needed with Forest Annie, then he could have 'erased' the copy. The Coyote part in him would have enjoyed the shock that would have created at the Court. But he didn't, so I suspect he keeps her there for a reason. Or he might have been too lazy to bother. (He froze the forest in time simply because he didn't want to go to all the trouble of redesigning the process that kept it stable.) |
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Post by ohthatone on Jan 29, 2019 15:29:37 GMT
"You'll stay in this locked bunker until you learn to get along with each other." I think you are probably right.
They have good intentions, but I hate it when people do stuff like in fiction... trying to manipulate or force your friends into doing something to change their minds without their consent, like you know better than them and are entitled to manage their feelings in their behalf...
You know, the typical "lets put them into a stressing situation and force them to work together..." or "Boy X and Girl X are always arguing... we should manipulate them so they date..." or "let expose him/her to a fake life threatening danger so he/she learns a valuable lesson and unlocks his/her true blahblahblah..."... you know, that stuff...
totally get what your saying, but I think this is a case where everyone needs the Annies to be cooperating, not sniping at each other. they don't have to be best friends after this, or even like each other (assuming this is the Be Friends room), but it's in everyone's best interests if they can at least come to an understanding. |
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Post by merry76 on Jan 29, 2019 20:21:56 GMT
I always thought it was an analysis of Renard's powers... I forgot about that. Maybe it can be used to analyze Forest Magic in general? Not that much would come of it, I am quite sure both Annies have been tampered with it. |
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Post by Corvo on Jan 29, 2019 21:08:16 GMT
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Post by tustin2121 on Jan 29, 2019 21:57:37 GMT
Here's another thought: Anja has a lie detector among her power suite, doesn't she? That might come in handy here, especially if it's also (been made into?) a program Kat can run on her computer. I don't think that is a lie detector power. I was under the impression that Anja just knew about the rules of ownership and was just confirming what Rey was saying about it. And as pyradonis said, it might also just be a view and understanding of Rey's powers too, as demonstrated in your second link, where she etherically analyzes the bound dogs. Man, I really want Anja's opinion on the two Annies now... |
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Post by madjack on Jan 29, 2019 22:07:22 GMT
Here's another thought: Anja has a lie detector among her power suite, doesn't she? That might come in handy here, especially if it's also (been made into?) a program Kat can run on her computer. I always thought it was an analysis of Renard's powers... I don't think that is a lie detector power. I was under the impression that Anja just knew about the rules of ownership and was just confirming what Rey was saying about it. And as pyradonis said, it might also just be a view and understanding of Rey's powers too, as demonstrated in your second link, where she etherically analyzes the bound dogs. Man, I really want Anja's opinion on the two Annies now... Yeah that makes sense. |
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Post by todd on Jan 30, 2019 0:11:09 GMT
If option 3 is the right one, we'll have a complex story development ahead of us with loads of awkwardness. Which is one reason why I think option 3 is the correct one - it's most likely to produce the kind of story that "Gunnerkrigg Court" prefers to tell. |
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Post by Igniz on Jan 30, 2019 0:12:23 GMT
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thor
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Post by thor on Jan 30, 2019 3:33:23 GMT
I like this theory because it would explain why Tony believed Fannie so quickly, assuming he is fully aware of his social limitations. Like, for 6 months, he was wondering why he was able to get along with his daughter so well, and then the second Annie shows up and he's like, "oh, of course, this explains everything" It has never occurred to me to think that Tony's inability to be Real Tony in front of more than one person at a time was anything as pedestrian as a social phobia or mental block. I always have assumed (and continue to assume until proven wrong) that his inability is something like a curse, or an etheric side-effect of some other condition. If it were a form of mental illness, those things usually run on a spectrum, vary from day to day with a person's inner biological cycles, and are often less likely to flare up when the person affected is in a comfortable and familiar circumstance, like being with one's wife and daughter in one's private living quarters. Tony turns on and off like a light switch. About Tony specifically, I'm thinking it's simply that the last six months have changed him. Tony was already warming up to Annie in Evac, right before that six months. Presumably he and (an) Annie have been living under the same roof for half a year, so one would expect they'd eventually end up breaking through an emotional barrier or two. Also, recall who Tony was telling the "I can't be myself around more than one other person" idea to. Surma. Wouldn't she have had the same two-in-one thing going on, if that were the case? Bad phrasing on my part. What I meant was the prior depiction of Annie's duality was more thematic and/or foreshadowing of *this* more literal duality. Then again, if the Annie/FireGirl division is meant to be literally two beings living as one, rather than two sides of Annie's personality, then it is possible that this is the same pairing again, with the FireGirl half now having been given corporeal form, with both beings still connected together in some unseen way to share their firepower, not unlike how a left and right hand are connected in a way that is only comprehensible when one looks at the larger picture. |
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Post by warrl on Jan 30, 2019 4:46:27 GMT
It has never occurred to me to think that Tony's inability to be Real Tony in front of more than one person at a time was anything as pedestrian as a social phobia or mental block. I always have assumed (and continue to assume until proven wrong) that his inability is something like a curse, or an etheric side-effect of some other condition. If it were a form of mental illness, those things usually run on a spectrum, vary from day to day with a person's inner biological cycles, and are often less likely to flare up when the person affected is in a comfortable and familiar circumstance, like being with one's wife and daughter in one's private living quarters. Tony turns on and off like a light switch. But turning on and off like a light switch is SO much easier to storytell - or roleplay, which I once did for a while, as a half-giant paladin with severe social anxiety. If I was aware that two or more people would see me speaking, I spoke in a barely-coherent mumble. But if there was only one person, or they couldn't see me, I was fine. (Was a bit of a mess when I thought there was only one other person there, but then found out there were two... I panicked and ran away.) Rather similar in principle to what we've seen of Tony in groups. |
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Post by Druplesnubb on Jan 30, 2019 11:13:23 GMT
Here's another thought: Anja has a lie detector among her power suite, doesn't she? That might come in handy here, especially if it's also (been made into?) a program Kat can run on her computer. No she just knows that Renard is correct in that anytihng possessing an object belonging to a certain person will also belong to said person (see Hetty). |
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Post by mturtle7 on Jan 31, 2019 0:57:39 GMT
It has never occurred to me to think that Tony's inability to be Real Tony in front of more than one person at a time was anything as pedestrian as a social phobia or mental block. I always have assumed (and continue to assume until proven wrong) that his inability is something like a curse, or an etheric side-effect of some other condition. If it were a form of mental illness, those things usually run on a spectrum, vary from day to day with a person's inner biological cycles, and are often less likely to flare up when the person affected is in a comfortable and familiar circumstance, like being with one's wife and daughter in one's private living quarters. Tony turns on and off like a light switch. I...huh. The exact opposite kind of thing happened to me: it never crossed my mind that Tony's changes in behavior was an etheric effect or literal curse. I really can't claim to know much about mental illness spectrums over time, but the idea of someone not being socially comfortable interacting with more than one other person at a time(even close friends) just seemed perfectly natural to me. His interactions with his daughter seemed...less natural, of course, but then the comic spent a lot of time exploring that one particular relationship and explaining it's uniqueness as a result of mundane causes (mundane in the sense of not being magical, that is), so I didn't think that really did anything to disprove what my conclusions about his particular form of social anxiety.
Very often, I noticed that a lot of people on the forums didn't see it the way I did, for instance they were very concerned with determining the exact 'rules' of his behavior & the exact reasons behind them. This kind of discussion tended to seem very weird, confusing, and disturbing for me, which is part of why I gave up and started trying to stay out of discussions about Tony's behavior as much as possible. When a couple occcasional theories surfaced about Tony's behavior being some sort of magical effect, I didn't really give them any more credibility then the Wildspec theories about Tony brainwashing Surma into marrying him.
The way you put it, though, does actually make a lot of sense. I'm not sure I actually agree with you here, but I can definitely understand why you'd see it that way, and I wouldn't be quite so surprised anymore if the comic did explicitly reveal that yes, Tony's changes in behavior are the result of a certain etheric effect.
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