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Post by brilliantgrey on Dec 18, 2018 6:39:38 GMT
Can someone please just give Forest!Annie a hug? And a let her have a good cry?
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Post by arf on Dec 18, 2018 10:47:18 GMT
I'm still trying to think of a good reason why fAnnie hasn't asked to see Reynardine (at least, as far as we know).
If it wasn't for the fact that Reynardine showed up for a bit near the end of the chapter where Ysengrin became Loup and attacked the Court, I'd be tempted to wonder if Tom had forgotten about the character. Tom forgets nothing. Rey played quite a prominent role in the preceding chapter (Katurday), when Kat returned ownership to Annie. He may not have been around much in the following chapters, but they don't cover a lot of time. Jones, otoh, hasn't been seen since "Changes" at the end of volume 4 (apart from a brief cameo in "Tall Tales"). That's a gap of six years. Come to think of it, Zimmy, Gamma, and Jack haven't been sighted since "The Torn Sea". |
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Post by todd on Dec 18, 2018 12:40:26 GMT
Yes, I think a more likely reason for why they aren't doing the "Reynardine test" is that it wouldn't fit the direction Tom wants to take the "two Annies" element (whatever that might be). |
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Post by agasa on Dec 18, 2018 12:51:42 GMT
Food for thought:
Right now, we're mostly "siding" with Forest!Annie.
What would happen to our viewpoint, our opinions, if we had followed the terrible situation in the Court instead of staying with Forest!Annie during the timeskip?
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Post by Corvo on Dec 18, 2018 13:26:25 GMT
If it wasn't for the fact that Reynardine showed up for a bit near the end of the chapter where Ysengrin became Loup and attacked the Court, I'd be tempted to wonder if Tom had forgotten about the character. Tom forgets nothing. Rey played quite a prominent role in the preceding chapter (Katurday), when Kat returned ownership to Annie. He may not have been around much in the following chapters, but they don't cover a lot of time. Jones, otoh, hasn't been seen since "Changes" at the end of volume 4 (apart from a brief cameo in "Tall Tales"). That's a gap of six years. Come to think of it, Zimmy, Gamma, and Jack haven't been sighted since "The Torn Sea". |
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Post by DonDueed on Dec 18, 2018 14:01:31 GMT
Food for thought: Right now, we're mostly "siding" with Forest!Annie. What would happen to our viewpoint, our opinions, if we had followed the terrible situation in the Court instead of staying with Forest!Annie during the timeskip? There's a parallel here between the Court's last six months and the London Blitz that took Mort's life.
And Jones was involved in both. |
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Post by fia on Dec 18, 2018 19:36:18 GMT
I'm still trying to think of a good reason why fAnnie hasn't asked to see Reynardine (at least, as far as we know). My read of what's going on is that she is being treated as technically on parole, since they are not sure she is not Annie but they are also not sure she is Annie. That is to say – I don't know that it's clear that she has been granted independent freedom of movement. Secondly, keeping Rey hidden for a bit builds tension  |
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Post by ohthatone on Dec 18, 2018 19:55:38 GMT
Given the circumstances I'm really not surprised Rey, a Forest god, is not around. He is probably hiding from the Court who I'm sure would like to lock him up right now.
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Post by jda on Dec 18, 2018 23:40:10 GMT
Food for thought: Right now, we're mostly "siding" with Forest!Annie. What would happen to our viewpoint, our opinions, if we had followed the terrible situation in the Court instead of staying with Forest!Annie during the timeskip? This chapter ends with Forest!Annie about to do something to recover her "stolen" life, maybe even "figuring" the crack on Court!Annie facade---- And the next chapter is "6 months ago...", about Court!Annie complete viewpoint, since "Ysengrin" told her to go back to the Court, -her futile attempts to contacting him and to end the war, -life in Tony's land and the closing of the gap between them, -working with Father in Kat's TechMagic and BodyShop, and recovering Tony's hand -a dark new faction rising on the Court administration that took the robots as mere zombie slaves, -the ForestStudents being banned or took as potential traitors - Eggers mourning ...several etc Until the day a meteor struck the Court, and Something came out of the Forest, claiming to be ... Annie! |
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Post by todd on Dec 19, 2018 0:19:38 GMT
I wonder whether the much-commented-on failure by the characters to test both Annies (whether with Reynardine or someone else) might be due to the real purpose in the story of two Annies is to explore her characterization, the philosophical and metaphysical aspects of her world, etc. - which two Annies, both being somehow genuine, would bring into the story. That is, it's not a "spot the impostor" case - and the absence of such a testing scene is meant to reinforce it. (In fact, we might next see a quick collapse of Loup and a return of peace - more or less - to the Court and the Forest, except with still two Annies there, both genuine, and having to work out this problem - with the suggestion that the narrative function of Loup's threat was to bring about this new phase in Annie's life, and now that it's been established, it's time to usher him out of the story quickly.)
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Post by jda on Dec 19, 2018 0:38:30 GMT
I wonder whether the much-commented-on failure by the characters to test both Annies (whether with Reynardine or someone else) might be due to the real purpose in the story of two Annies is to explore her characterization, the philosophical and metaphysical aspects of her world, etc. - which two Annies, both being somehow genuine, would bring into the story. That is, it's not a "spot the impostor" case - and the absence of such a testing scene is meant to reinforce it. (In fact, we might next see a quick collapse of Loup and a return of peace - more or less - to the Court and the Forest, except with still two Annies there, both genuine, and having to work out this problem - with the suggestion that the narrative function of Loup's threat was to bring about this new phase in Annie's life, and now that it's been established, it's time to usher him out of the story quickly.) As plots go, I'd like more to explore a way for both of them to merge again, maybe by the Device of Green color (not the GreenArrow TM ), as a binding token... kind of this on reverse, but preferrably without much pain and screaming, please. |
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Post by mturtle7 on Dec 19, 2018 1:44:30 GMT
I'm still trying to think of a good reason why fAnnie hasn't asked to see Reynardine (at least, as far as we know).
Now, it's true that from her perspective, it hasn't been all that long since she last saw him. But now that she's been informed of the time skip, you'd think he'd be the first one she'd want to talk to other than Kat and (maybe) her father.
Instead, she's gone off on this Jones-seeking expedition without so much as a thought for Rey. That seems a bit off kilter -- at least as much so as some of the things that have been pointed out about cAnnie. I don't see why the shock of meeting her doppelganger would be enough to account for it.
It makes me think that neither of the two Annies is entirely whole and functioning normally.
To be fair, Renard is fine as far as she knows, while Jones just literally fell from orbit after spending the last six months with absolutely no knowledge of what happened to Annie or anyone else. There's some perfectly reasons to prioritize going to see her before Rey.
But yeah, it does seem like poor Rey has been getting pushed to the sidelines more lately. I'm kind of annoyed about that, but also I think it's honestly reflecting a change in his relationship: she's growing to be more powerful and independent a person, and he doesn't want to get in the way of that (" have some fun with your friends and forget about this old fox for a while"). Right now, she's just come back after accidentally being away for six months and replaced by a double, and she doesn't treat him a priority at all, but it's possible that's exactly what he would want from her.
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Post by warrl on Dec 19, 2018 8:14:57 GMT
Also remember, in her mind she's been gone for a few hours - seeing Rey wouldn't be that urgent after such a short absence.
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Post by saardvark on Dec 19, 2018 10:43:34 GMT
Some of your posts make me indeed wonder... Why does no one involved, neither Kat nor Tony, Jones, Eggman, or Courtney or Fannie themselves think of asking questions that only the real Annie could know? Would it not be a much more obvious method of determining the realness of one or both Annies instead of thinking about a "Renard test"? If Loup did a complete "memory copy" when he made the new Annie (however he did it), its possible that the copy_Annie would have identical memories with the original, so there would be no differences before they separated. |
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Post by pyradonis on Dec 19, 2018 12:17:33 GMT
Some of your posts make me indeed wonder... Why does no one involved, neither Kat nor Tony, Jones, Eggman, or Courtney or Fannie themselves think of asking questions that only the real Annie could know? Would it not be a much more obvious method of determining the realness of one or both Annies instead of thinking about a "Renard test"? If Loup did a complete "memory copy" when he made the new Annie (however he did it), its possible that the copy_Annie would have identical memories with the original, so there would be no differences before they separated. Of course, but then at least they knew both had the same memories, and there was no simple impostor in an elaborate disguise. |
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Post by The Anarch on Dec 20, 2018 13:29:50 GMT
Some of your posts make me indeed wonder... Why does no one involved, neither Kat nor Tony, Jones, Eggman, or Courtney or Fannie themselves think of asking questions that only the real Annie could know? Would it not be a much more obvious method of determining the realness of one or both Annies instead of thinking about a "Renard test"? If only Annie could know the answer, then how could anyone else know that the answer either of them gave was the right one? |
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Post by DonDueed on Dec 20, 2018 15:19:00 GMT
Some of your posts make me indeed wonder... Why does no one involved, neither Kat nor Tony, Jones, Eggman, or Courtney or Fannie themselves think of asking questions that only the real Annie could know? Would it not be a much more obvious method of determining the realness of one or both Annies instead of thinking about a "Renard test"? If only Annie could know the answer, then how could anyone else know that the answer either of them gave was the right one? Well naturally, the asker would also have to know the answer. For instance, Kat could ask each Annie (separately) what they talked about on some particular day in Annie's underwater dorm room.
Reminds me of the Star Trek episode when a shape-shifter took on Kirk's form, and Spock had to determine which was which. It should have been simple, if Spock had used the method we're discussing, but he hesitated. The real Kirk resolved it by telling Spock to shoot both of them.
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Post by The Anarch on Dec 20, 2018 17:24:43 GMT
If only Annie could know the answer, then how could anyone else know that the answer either of them gave was the right one? Well naturally, the asker would also have to know the answer. For instance, Kat could ask each Annie (separately) what they talked about on some particular day in Annie's underwater dorm room. But that isn't actually a naturally, especially in a place like the Court, where one's whereabouts are tracked through the food they eat and psychopomps can flit about invisibly. Any number of entities, both natural and supernatural, may have been privy to what they talked about, be it on the proposed day or before/after it through various means. It's often hard enough keeping a secret in the real world as it is, and the Court seems to be particularly inimical to privacy. And even if such information wasn't pilfered through some means, it's still not a foolproof plan. Memory is a tricky thing and it's possible the real Annie might not remember what they talked about on that particular day, even if it was something important. Or what if the fake is able to make an educated guess that luckily happens to be correct? Where would that leave things? In any case, the main point I was trying to make was that if only Annie could know the answer, then it couldn't be anything like a conversation with another person because then that other person could also know the answer, not just Annie. Eh? Eh? Yeah, I'm clever.  |
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Post by pyradonis on Dec 21, 2018 11:57:36 GMT
Well naturally, the asker would also have to know the answer. For instance, Kat could ask each Annie (separately) what they talked about on some particular day in Annie's underwater dorm room. But that isn't actually a naturally, especially in a place like the Court, where one's whereabouts are tracked through the food they eat and psychopomps can flit about invisibly. Any number of entities, both natural and supernatural, may have been privy to what they talked about, be it on the proposed day or before/after it through various means. It's often hard enough keeping a secret in the real world as it is, and the Court seems to be particularly inimical to privacy. And even if such information wasn't pilfered through some means, it's still not a foolproof plan. Memory is a tricky thing and it's possible the real Annie might not remember what they talked about on that particular day, even if it was something important. Or what if the fake is able to make an educated guess that luckily happens to be correct? Where would that leave things? In any case, the main point I was trying to make was that if only Annie could know the answer, then it couldn't be anything like a conversation with another person because then that other person could also know the answer, not just Annie. Eh? Eh? Yeah, I'm clever. Of course, you would not only use ONE question... But scientists like them would know to make a proper DoE. Tony, could ask about things that had happened long before Annie had ever been to GKC. Jones about things that happened in the Forest. Kat about what happened in the RotD (pretty sure not even the court can track persons in the RotD). And so on. It just seems to Kat is too nice to think about it. She just seems to "feel" both Annies are real (that is what I read from her interactions with Courtney and Fannie, anyway). |
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Post by todd on Dec 21, 2018 12:43:15 GMT
I think they're not taking that approach anyway since the point is that this isn't one of those convenient situations where one of them is an impostor who can be exposed and then dealt with in straightforward action-style; rather, both are real and it's a matter of quiet character interaction with no "easy solution" in the form of "expose the fake". (And this certainly fits the tone of the comic, whose emphasis has indeed been more on characterization and metaphysical/philosophical discourses - a few moments of action, yes, but they're not the heart of the story.)
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Post by The Anarch on Dec 21, 2018 15:13:31 GMT
Of course, you would not only use ONE question... But that doesn't really change anything since any additional question could also be easily compromised as I described above. Especially if, say, Annie had been in the vicinity of an extremely powerful etheric creature with a wide array of poorly defined but very potent supernatural abilities when the split/cloning/whatever happened. I mean, I'm not saying that it's possible Loup could reach into Annie's brain and copy every single memory she has into another Annie, but that's actually exactly what I'm saying is possible, and I'm sure the Court crew are canny enough to realize that possibility given the situation and that both Annies appear to be real in more substantial ways anyway. |
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Post by DonDueed on Dec 21, 2018 15:42:35 GMT
Of course, you would not only use ONE question... But that doesn't really change anything since any additional question could also be easily compromised as I described above. Especially if, say, Annie had been in the vicinity of an extremely powerful etheric creature with a wide array of poorly defined but very potent supernatural abilities when the split/cloning/whatever happened. I mean, I'm not saying that it's possible Loup could reach into Annie's brain and copy every single memory she has into another Annie, but that's actually exactly what I'm saying is possible, and I'm sure the Court crew are canny enough to realize that possibility given the situation and that both Annies appear to be real in more substantial ways anyway. The Court are scientists. Performing this kind of investigation would be the obvious thing to do when confronted by a possible imposter. While it might turn out to be inconclusive, it would be irresponsible NOT to try this approach immediately.
The only explanation I can give as to why we haven't seen this happen, is that it actually did happen -- off screen when forest!Annie was in detention. Court!Annie would not have been interrogated since her bona fides would be assumed (because she'd been there all that time, presumably without arousing suspicion).
Well, that or the possibility that court!Annie was already known to be an imposter, but Kat (et al) have been playing along (and still are). That seems pretty unlikely, though.
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Post by The Anarch on Dec 21, 2018 16:09:39 GMT
The Court are scientists. In a world that works on very different rules from our own, so the level of such responsibility would be different. Not to mention that despite protestations to the contrary, many of the folks at the Court are less full scientists and more science/wizard hybrids. We've seen plenty of evidence throughout the comic that they don't always adhere to strict real world scientific rigor. That said, I do agree that it's quite likely that an official interrogation did already occur off-screen before they brought in her family and friends, whatever might comprise such an interrogation. But I also doubt that they expected very much to come from it for the reasons I've already stated if they did give it a try. And again, we are shown more substantial ways in which her family and friends can see that both Annies check out, so the memory fact questionnaire would seem possibly redundant and more likely just lower priority to them. Ultimately, given how paranoid the Court is under normal circumstances and that these are not normal circumstances, I think it's pretty safe to assume that she's been vetted as thoroughly as the Court has felt necessary, regardless of what those vetting methods might be. If she hadn't been, then I highly doubt she would be allowed out and about in the Court, supervised or otherwise. |
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Post by warrl on Dec 22, 2018 1:19:37 GMT
My thought is that they are doing the testing in question as they go, but in a different way, and (in my opinion) Court!Annie is failing. The attitude she is displaying about the duality just doesn't feel like Antimony Carver to me, while Forest!Annie's response is spot-on.
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Post by todd on Dec 22, 2018 13:37:38 GMT
I think it more likely that Tom left the tests out because he'd intended this to be a "both Annies are real" situation (and, as I mentioned elsewhere, to be much more complex than the "spot the impostor" situation which gets resolved in straightforward exposing and defeating the fake). But it might have been wiser to have included a brief test scene just to answer the "why aren't they doing the tests?" questions - but which would end with it being clear that they're both real and that the "which one's the fake?" convention doesn't apply to this story. Too late for that now, though.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Dec 22, 2018 20:39:21 GMT
I wonder if Antimony (any Antimony) has ever had to compete for Anthony's affection before.
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Post by warrl on Dec 23, 2018 0:41:01 GMT
I wonder if Antimony (any Antimony) has ever had to compete for Anthony's affection before. Yes, ever since her mother died - but it's hard to compete with a memory, let alone a delusion. |
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Post by pyradonis on Dec 23, 2018 0:41:59 GMT
Of course, you would not only use ONE question... But that doesn't really change anything since any additional question could also be easily compromised as I described above. Especially if, say, Annie had been in the vicinity of an extremely powerful etheric creature with a wide array of poorly defined but very potent supernatural abilities when the split/cloning/whatever happened. I mean, I'm not saying that it's possible Loup could reach into Annie's brain and copy every single memory she has into another Annie, but that's actually exactly what I'm saying is possible, and I'm sure the Court crew are canny enough to realize that possibility given the situation and that both Annies appear to be real in more substantial ways anyway. Well, in that case every other possible way of finding out is moot as well. A God can do anything. Which leaves no option but "We'll have to kill them both to make sure." |
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Post by The Anarch on Dec 23, 2018 0:44:31 GMT
Which leaves no option but "We'll have to kill them both to make sure." We'll have to nuke the site from orbit. |
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