[2044] MY Ysengrin

[Nepycros]

Annie decides to stand up for the woof.

Anyone else think her words ring a little hollow? She talks as if she knows him, but what she doesn't know about him could fill novels, and what Loup does know about him puts Annie's knowledge to shame.

I understand the empathetic "he's a sweet lad if you just get to know him" is emotionally gratifying, but this is the same Ysengrin who went into a blood rage to assault and kill Annie, murdered his own god upon receiving his strength, and had his thoughts and memories pillaged and collected by Coyote for years.

Thoughtful and reserved? He unabashedly talks of how humans should worship Coyote, and sees them as inferior.

His own thoughts and nobody else's? What was left in his mind after Coyote stole and abused him for ages? He was a shambling beast on a leash, the only ideas that he was allowed to have were ones that placated Coyote's machinations.

Delicate pride is the only component that makes sense, but that only scratches the surface of Ysengrin from what we've seen alone, and there's so much more lore that Annie seems... far too idealistic to be realistic.

[Angry Individual]

Yeah they do ring a little weak.

To be honest, though, it's really hard to argue it in-universe when... nobody else REALLY knows Ysengrin outside of Coyote, Annie, and I suppose Loup.

For all everyone else knows, he really is all those things. Maybe he is! Maybe Coyote has been influenced a lot more of what we've seen than what we know.

[imaginaryfriend]

I too wonder if Antimony knows Ysengrin as well as she thinks (and am remembering that this knowledge comes courtesy of Coyote) but nuance here might affect the potential for persuasion.  She's probably been rehearsing what she wanted to say to Ysengrin and was thrown for a loop by "Loup" so going over Ys' good points here may be an easy rhetorical fallback position.  Let's see if "Loup" fishes for more compliments for Ys.

Also: Is an easily-won love worth having?    maybe when you're younger

[zbeeblebrox]

I feel like Annie needs a dog. Like, a regular dog.

[Nepycros]

Sept 24, 2018 7:25:11 GMT imaginaryfriend said:

I too wonder if Antimony knows Ysengrin as well as she thinks (and am remembering that this knowledge comes courtesy of Coyote) but nuance here might affect the potential for persuasion.  She's probably been rehearsing what she wanted to say to Ysengrin and was thrown for a loop by "Loup" so going over Ys' good points here may be an easy rhetorical fallback position.  Let's see if "Loup" fishes for more compliments for Ys.

Also: Is an easily-won love worth having?    maybe when you're younger

Thrown for a "Loup," I like it.

[jocobo]

Sept 24, 2018 7:11:20 GMT Nepycros said:

Annie decides to stand up for the woof.

Anyone else think her words ring a little hollow? She talks as if she knows him, but what she doesn't know about him could fill novels, and what Loup does know about him puts Annie's knowledge to shame.

I understand the empathetic "he's a sweet lad if you just get to know him" is emotionally gratifying, but this is the same Ysengrin who went into a blood rage to assault and kill Annie, murdered his own god upon receiving his strength, and had his thoughts and memories pillaged and collected by Coyote for years.

Thoughtful and reserved? He unabashedly talks of how humans should worship Coyote, and sees them as inferior.

His own thoughts and nobody else's? What was left in his mind after Coyote stole and abused him for ages? He was a shambling beast on a leash, the only ideas that he was allowed to have were ones that placated Coyote's machinations.

Delicate pride is the only component that makes sense, but that only scratches the surface of Ysengrin from what we've seen alone, and there's so much more lore that Annie seems... far too idealistic to be realistic.

They don't ring hollow to me. They seem to reflect Annie's relationship with Ysengrin fairly well.

The "blood rage" and most of Ysengrin's more erratic behavior is the direct consequence of Coyote poking holes in his mind. It'd be like blaming someone with dementia for having a freak out. You can hold them responsible for the consequences of their actions while in that state, but you can't hold them responsible for entering it in the first place.

Yes thoughtful and reserved. Such as the many times he provided much needed emotional support to Annie and has shown some pretty interesting philosophy on strength, personal responsibility and moving forward in the face of personal crises, all of which Annie benefited from.

Quite a bit of his own mind was left. It's like your taking what is at best 3(One of which was a deliberate act, one of which was engineered by Coyote and one of which was entirely justified in my opinion) incidents of Ysengrin being violent and then ignoring the many many dozens of pages where he was clam, quiet or showed clarity and insight. He was certainly not some frothing monster waiting to attack everyone in the majority of his appearances. Its quite  a bit of hyperbole there.

Of course above all else, we don't see Annie's every interaction with Ysengrin. I'm not even sure it safe to say we've seen the majority of their interactions. 

So yes, I think Annie's words are an appropriate perspective of her idea of Ysengrin based on his interactions with her.

[OGRuddawg]

Very well put, Jocobo. I do think Annie may be deliberately playing down some if Ysengrin's flaws, but that's the Ysengrin she wants to believe in. And she is trying to stand up for Ysengrin.

I have said before that I think Annie tries to look at the best in people and non-people, and if more people and creatures took the time to really empathize with him, they would see Ysengrin the way Annie sees him. Also, he was directly manipulated (I would say outright abused) by Coyote to make his violent outbursts more frequent and pronounced. To me Ysengrin was a very well-written tragic character who was fighting an uphill battle despite being abused by one of the strongest, most unpreductable characters in the comic. I commend Annie for trying to see the real Ysengrin, or at least Ysengrin at his best.

[merry76]

Ok, of all the people here, who shipped Ysengrin X Annie?

There has to be someone

[theonethatgotaway]

Sept 24, 2018 8:57:21 GMT merry76 said:

Ok, of all the people here, who shipped Ysengrin X Annie?

There has to be someone

If there was a thumbs down, I'd be giving it to you right now. I know "shipping" is a thing, and we've had jokes about Kat, Annie, Paz, Mighty Brow and Blip-girl and so on, but that's comparing kids to kids. I'd never go as far as suggesting a ship between a child and an ethereal, 100-year-or-who-knows-how-much-more mythic BEAST. That's just several degrees of wrong in my book :-o.

[faiiry]

When Annie says she’s got a love and consideration from Ys that “isn’t easily won,” I have to wonder if she “won” it. That would seem to supply some sort of special effort on her part, and I think it’s just a matter of A) Being in the right place in the right time, and B) Not being a jerk to him.

Of course it also helps that she’s not human and he knew that from the get-go. If she HAD been fully human, I have to doubt that Ys would have ever put up with her to the extent that he did.

Also, is this reading as shades of Beauty and the Beast for anyone else? Belle argued with the townspeople about the Beast’s true gentle nature in much the same way. Add a dash of Little Red Riding Hood But With Fairies and you’ve got chapter 68 of GKC. (Though I think you could make an argument that a lot of classic fairy tales are included in the comic if you tried hard enough.)

[faiiry]

Sept 24, 2018 8:57:21 GMT merry76 said:

Ok, of all the people here, who shipped Ysengrin X Annie?

There has to be someone

She’s like 14, dude.

[merry76]

Sept 24, 2018 9:45:46 GMT theonethatgotaway said:

If there was a thumbs down, I'd be giving it to you right now. I know "shipping" is a thing, and we've had jokes about Kat, Annie, Paz, Mighty Brow and Blip-girl and so on, but that's comparing kids to kids. I'd never go as far as suggesting a ship between a child and an ethereal, 100-year-or-who-knows-how-much-more mythic BEAST. That's just several degrees of wrong in my book :-o.

She is also a half fire elemental. Not sure what this makes her, we have yet to find out (despite her mother died for giving birth to her, which would probably make her share the same fate... or be forever only romantically involved, no procreation).

[merry76]

Sept 24, 2018 10:42:23 GMT faiiry said:

Sept 24, 2018 8:57:21 GMT merry76 said:

Ok, of all the people here, who shipped Ysengrin X Annie?

There has to be someone

She’s like 14, dude.

Which incidentaly is about the age where you start to interest yourself in relationships a bit more. Mind, relationships do not require to be sexual - a fact that theonethatgotaway insinuated I implied. Lets hope no one thought of their relationship in this way, that would be waaaay off. The fact is that she shows compassion for Ysengrin - to the point where you could call it love. "My Ysengrin" and all that.

Sure, she might not entirely understand what that means. That is normal, because, as you pointed out, she is kinda 14 (ish). You tend to be confused about life and your feelings at that age. I quite remember being confused at that age, and thats well over 25 years back.

[speedwell]

Sept 24, 2018 7:25:11 GMT imaginaryfriend said:

[snip]

Also: Is an easily-won love worth having?    maybe when you're younger

It's the only kind worth having. It's not the person whose love you are seeking to win that is the obstacle. A person's love is not something you can fight for. People love what they love because it meets certain specific and individual requirements of their heart and mind. You have simply not yet been successful in showing them that you are an appropriate object for their love. 

Why did Annie "win" Ysengrin's love? Mostly because, I think, they were cast together under circumstances that triggered Ysengrin's wolf-dad instincts. Wolves are very protective of their cubs. She's sort of a Mowgli As for why she loves him, we already discussed that. He's the best of all of her father figures, heaven help him.

[speedwell]

Sept 24, 2018 10:42:23 GMT faiiry said:

Sept 24, 2018 8:57:21 GMT merry76 said:

Ok, of all the people here, who shipped Ysengrin X Annie?

There has to be someone

She’s like 14, dude.

And it would practically be incest, given their parent-child relationship, dude. Not cool.

[archmagarche]

Sept 24, 2018 11:35:24 GMT speedwell said:

Sept 24, 2018 10:42:23 GMT faiiry said:

She’s like 14, dude.

And it would practically be incest, given their parent-child relationship, dude. Not cool.

I don't think you know what incest is. Incest makes inbreeding. Father-daughter relationships do not.

[faiiry]

Sept 24, 2018 11:02:40 GMT merry76 said:

Sept 24, 2018 10:42:23 GMT faiiry said:

She’s like 14, dude.

Which incidentaly is about the age where you start to interest yourself in relationships a bit more. Mind, relationships do not require to be sexual - a fact that theonethatgotaway insinuated I implied. Lets hope no one thought of their relationship in this way, that would be waaaay off. The fact is that she shows compassion for Ysengrin - to the point where you could call it love. "My Ysengrin" and all that.

Sure, she might not entirely understand what that means. That is normal, because, as you pointed out, she is kinda 14 (ish). You tend to be confused about life and your feelings at that age. I quite remember being confused at that age, and thats well over 25 years back.

So you’re okay with romantically shipping a 14-year-old kid and her wolf-god father figure because... she’s compassionate toward him. Alright. That’s what I’m getting from this.

Still not okay in the least.

[faiiry]

Sept 24, 2018 11:55:51 GMT archmagarche said:

Sept 24, 2018 11:35:24 GMT speedwell said:

And it would practically be incest, given their parent-child relationship, dude. Not cool.

I don't think you know what incest is. Incest makes inbreeding. Father-daughter relationships do not.

Wut.

[archmagarche]

Sept 24, 2018 12:16:59 GMT faiiry said:

Sept 24, 2018 11:55:51 GMT archmagarche said:

I don't think you know what incest is. Incest makes inbreeding. Father-daughter relationships do not.

Wut.

They said that it's "practically incest" when it "practically" is very much not.

[faiiry]

Sept 24, 2018 12:19:39 GMT archmagarche said:

Sept 24, 2018 12:16:59 GMT faiiry said:

Wut.

They said that it's "practically incest" when it "practically" is very much not.

Practically means “pretty much” in this context I think.

There are those of us who think incest is never fine, and there are those who think it’s hunky-dory as long as no offspring are produced. If you’re in the latter category then please let’s not even keep this conversation going. I don’t have the strength.

[archmagarche]

Sept 24, 2018 12:27:14 GMT faiiry said:

Sept 24, 2018 12:19:39 GMT archmagarche said:

They said that it's "practically incest" when it "practically" is very much not.

Practically means “pretty much” in this context I think.

There are those of us who think incest is never fine, and there are those who think it’s hunky-dory as long as no offspring are produced. If you’re in the latter category then please let’s not even keep this conversation going. I don’t have the strength.

If your issue is a power imbalance in the relationship, say that.

[philman]

It's coming up to the end of year 10 (although year 9 for the second time for Annie), so she'd be 15 at this point in time depending on birthdays, which have never been revealed or discussed by Tom.

I don't think that anyone is seriously shipping Annie and Ysengrin, but there is always a segment of the internet who will ship any two characters no matter what. If you're complaining about people shipping this one then the internet has a lot worse ships that you have yet to find... (Personally I've never understood the point of shipping characters that even are the same age).

If you're going to characterise Ysengrin as a father figure (How many does Annie have now anyway? Are we saying every adult male figure she interacts with is a father figure now?) then it still wouldn't be incest, he isn't genetically related, although it would be a bit icky. Just ask Woody Allen how well non-related father figure relationships go down in the court of public opinion.

[imaginaryfriend]

Sept 24, 2018 11:28:54 GMT speedwell said:

Sept 24, 2018 7:25:11 GMT imaginaryfriend said:

Is an easily-won love worth having?    maybe when you're younger

It's the only kind worth having. It's not the person whose love you are seeking to win that is the obstacle. A person's love is not something you can fight for. People love what they love because it meets certain specific and individual requirements of their heart and mind. You have simply not yet been successful in showing them that you are an appropriate object for their love.

I can agree with that description for a sort of love that lacks a relationship component, like a love at first sight or a one-sided love from afar, but not for any sort that includes a relationship... at least not a positive or meaningful one. Unless the success is instant and the display is accidental there's some effort involved in showing someone that you're an appropriate object for their love while earning/retaining their respect, and even if the success is instant the struggle might have involved preparing one's self for a hypothetical person.

Someone can display valuable traits but if they don't have the respect of the object of their affections the result is a dysfunctional love at best. Circumstances will not always be advantageous as when people first meet and people do have flaws.

Sept 24, 2018 11:28:54 GMT speedwell said:

Why did Annie "win" Ysengrin's love? Mostly because, I think, they were cast together under circumstances that triggered Ysengrin's wolf-dad instincts. Wolves are very protective of their cubs. She's sort of a Mowgli As for why she loves him, we already discussed that. He's the best of all of her father figures, heaven help him.

I wonder if Ys loves/loved an image of Antimony that only bears a superficial resemblance to the real Antimony and vice versa.  From the conversations they've had they do understand each other to an extent but they're very different sorts of beings. I wonder how deep their understanding of each other runs, and will in passing note that the extent to which they do understand each other has been the result of manipulation by Coyote.

[Trillium]

Good grief people, Annie and Ysengrin have something of a parent/child-guardian/ward relationship. With Annie's dad distant or gone much of her life it is easy to see her coming to respect and even rely on a strong male adult in her life. Her naivety is willing to overlay what she knows about Ysengrin with idealized virtues of what she needs to see in someone. It might be wishful thinking but this is the sort of thing that can make an individual better because someone believes in them. Annie believes in Ysengrin. She certainly sees him as better than he sees himself. It is interesting that this relationship developed between Annie and Ysengrin rather than her and Eglamore.

[ctso74]

Sept 24, 2018 13:02:15 GMT imaginaryfriend said:

Someone can display valuable traits but if they don't have the respect of the object of their affections the result is a dysfunctional love at best.

Wait. There's... there's functional "love"? Are you sure?... Are we talking about the same thing? Maybe this involves tennis...

[fjodorii]

I think Annie is really talking to Ys, and not about Ys here. Probably hoping that her words are heard and the Ysengrin part of Loup puts up a fight.

Her words sound very normal for someone who has spent lots of time with Ysengrin, which is much more than the comic has shown in pictures..

[jda]

1) very good point, the father daughter relationship developing more between Ys -Annie than Eggers-annie,.. Or even Tony-Annie. I even thought about a Ys-Eggers duel over who was Annie's father figure, but it was a no-contest.
2) Annie's father figure attacked her twice at least, one in their first meeting, other in The Secret.

[hp]

Wait, how are Annie's words empty? We've followed their relationship slowly building for years, with Ysengrim going from asshole intolerant bodyguard to training her, fighting alongside her, advising her w/r/t her father and her elemental side and even getting comfortable enough around her to let himself be vulnerable around her.

He attacked her *once* after they've made acquaintances (his lashing out when she slapped coyote was before that) in her many years visiting the forest and even vacationing there (BTW IIRC that side comic also mentions Y constantly training her). She immediately noticed he didn't look like himself and he immediately regreted it in the aftermath. Then coyote showed up and ate the memory, which suggested the attack was expected, probably manipulated into happening, and part of some agenda. They later talked about that and it seemed pretty clear something was off about that attack.

It's not like she barely knows the dude. She knows his dangerous/erratic edge, she just doesn't think it defines him like the rest of the people who know him

Side note: Annie's hair is seriously awesome in that page

[avurai]

Sept 24, 2018 13:26:29 GMT ctso74 said:

Sept 24, 2018 13:02:15 GMT imaginaryfriend said:

Someone can display valuable traits but if they don't have the respect of the object of their affections the result is a dysfunctional love at best.

Wait. There's... there's functional "love"? Are you sure?... Are we talking about the same thing? Maybe this involves tennis...

In therapeutic terms, yes. Love can result in a dysfunctional relationship and/or personal interactions. That’s what he meant. An abusive partner is displaying dysfunctional love—it is unable to perceive the other person as wholly human and instead can view that other person as means to an end: I.e. feeling better about one’s self.

It’s easy to pretend you don’t understand for a joke about semantics.

[faiiry]

Sept 24, 2018 14:36:49 GMT jda said:

 I even thought about a Ys-Eggers duel over who was Annie's father figure, but it was a no-contest.

I like the contrast between Eglamore and Ys's parenting types. (For lack of a better term.) Ysengrin seems to slide into the role of mentor/teacher/father figure very naturally. Eggers, meanwhile, is awkward and slipshod about it, and hints of his affection for Surma are constantly creeping into his interactions with Annie, for better or for worse - more likely, worse. 

Funny enough, I think there's something to be said about the relation of Surma to all these different guys who want to be Annie's father. Eglamore and Tony were both in love with her and are both still mourning her, and their relations with Annie are slightly (or very, depending on how you look at it) odd, because of how they're coloured by both men's memories of and grief for Surma. Their abilities to be a father figure to Annie are tainted by the "ghost" of Surma.

Meanwhile, Ys hardly ever mentions Surma and certainly doesn't compare Annie to her, mistake Annie for her, or, heaven forbid, view Annie as a manifestation of his own failure - as both Tony and Eggman are wont to do. In fact, I think the only notable time Ys even mentions Surma is when he's indirectly berating Tony for being so damn obsessed with her. Ysengrin is able to see Annie as her own person, unlike Eglamore/Tony, and that's what makes him special among her bevy of would-be fathers.

In conclusion, Ysengrin is the best dad because no Surma. End of rant.