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Post by Runningflame on Jun 18, 2018 15:36:09 GMT
Panels 4 & 5: YEEEAAAAAHHH! Go Annie! Kick some butt! (Or, well, negotiate I guess. You get the point.) She just demonstrated pretty conclusively that Eglamore was wrong. This isn't Tony sending his daughter anywhere; it's her idea. She's owning it and she's ready to go. I love it. |
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Post by The Anarch on Jun 18, 2018 15:39:37 GMT
Panels 4 & 5: YEEEAAAAAHHH! Go Annie! Kick some butt! (Or, well, negotiate I guess. You get the point.) YEAH! NEGOTIATE SOME BUTT! WOOOOOOOOOOait minute. That came out wrong. |
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Post by Runningflame on Jun 18, 2018 16:06:11 GMT
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Post by Eversist on Jun 18, 2018 16:46:10 GMT
Although I'm surprised she's not wearing her boots. Speculation: Jones, for some reason, won't be able to go through the shield, so she'll end up going alone. Could you link to the boots? All I can remember are the ones that she made for Kat in the forest. Also, I like that speculation, but I was hoping this was an opportunity for Jones to flex her muscles a bit.  Unless Eglamore and/or Tony are really slow talkers, Annie took like 1 minute flat to get changed and do her hair up, which is the most impressive feat of magic this comic has ever seen, especially when you consider that it takes like 30 seconds to run across her outrageously huge room. Oh come on, we're running on Comics Time. The same Comics Time that let's you get out entire paragraphs of dialogue while performing one punch. |
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Post by pyradonis on Jun 18, 2018 17:01:57 GMT
Although I'm surprised she's not wearing her boots. Speculation: Jones, for some reason, won't be able to go through the shield, so she'll end up going alone. Could you link to the boots? All I can remember are the ones that she made for Kat in the forest. She is wearing them here for example. I just thought that Tony might be risking his standing with the Court's lords. After all they explicitly brought him back to rein her in... |
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Post by faiiry on Jun 18, 2018 18:03:59 GMT
Even if Eglamore accompanied Annie, the most he can do is try to spirit her away to safety, and that only worked when Annie had her blinker stone, which she now doesn't, so Eglamore is all but useless. How exactly do we come to the conclusion that it only worked because of the blinker stone? We don't know the full extent of Egger's abilities. It's perfectly possible that he could have distracted Ys some other way and having Annie use her stone was simply the most expedient option under the circumstances. That's true, but even with that being said, if Eglamore has his own powers that might have worked against Ysengrin, this isn't Ysengrin anymore. It's a powerful combination of Ysengrin and Coyote, with all the savageness of the former and the wiles of the latter. Somehow, I don't think that a flash of bright light would do much to stop Coysengrin, and we've yet to see any abilities of Eglamore's that look impressive enough to defeat a god. She can instantly teleport Annie back to the Court, an ability Eglamore doesn't have. How did I forget that? I apologize to Parley. But now I'm annoyed that Eglamore isn't letting Parley go along! Her presence is vital. Perhaps Annie should consider bringing along Andrew instead, for good luck. She definitely needs somebody with supernatural abilities along for the ride, because fire alone isn't going to save her if Coysengrin decides he doesn't want to listen. Jones is good, but Jones + others is better. |
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Post by faiiry on Jun 18, 2018 18:07:26 GMT
Oh, man, the hair on this page, I can't believe I missed it. Her hair is shorter than usual, a sign of her dad's influence. But she's wearing the hair clip from her childhood that used to belong to Anja, a sign of her mother's influence. But she's also wearing her hair in a different style than usual, a look all her own. A turning point? (And it looks great!) Also, very quick side thought, I've always wondered about Surma's hair on page 436, where it's cut very short. In every other flashback, it's long. Did she have a similar situation as Annie? |
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Post by The Anarch on Jun 18, 2018 18:24:08 GMT
and we've yet to see any abilities of Eglamore's that look impressive enough to defeat a god. "We've yet to see them" isn't the same as "he doesn't have them". We don't know the exact extent of Ysenyote's abilities either. More powerful than Ys? Almost certainly. As powerful or more so than Coyote? We don't know yet. It's all a moot point anyway since the primary function of anyone (Eggers or otherwise) going with Annie to the forest would not be to defeat a god. It would be to protect/advise Annie, a much different and far more practicable prospect. |
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Post by Runningflame on Jun 18, 2018 19:18:41 GMT
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Post by Eversist on Jun 18, 2018 20:17:37 GMT
That's totally Ysengrins color style she's wearing. COINCIDENCE? <-- Link to Tom's Twitter |
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Post by blazingstar on Jun 18, 2018 21:11:30 GMT
That's totally Ysengrins color style she's wearing. COINCIDENCE? Holy crap it is, did not even notice. Edit: I also just remembered that she has worn similar colours as the Forest Medium in the past. Perhaps those are the Forest Medium's 'official' colours, or she adopted Ys' look when she took his role? Ys' hoodie may be from the court, because it's the exact same shade of green as the student uniforms, faculty suits, and other court formal-wear. I've always wondered if his outfit is based on official Court outfits, and not the other way around. Of course, Ys' and the Court's colors could simply be a complementing each other for artistic aesthetic reasons, and nothing more. |
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Post by blazingstar on Jun 18, 2018 21:18:10 GMT
This is her 'ditching the headband' moment. The first look was her imitating her mother's. The second was heavily shaped by her father's influence on her childhood. This is hers, a mixture of Kat/Parley's practicality, her own feminine style and her love of the Forest. The real Annie Carver has just arrived. This isn't new. She's shown favoritism to ponytails before, and since becoming a Forest Medium, has always thought ponytails were more practical. This is more of a throwback, if anything. It may show a resurgence of Annie's independent spirit. |
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Post by todd on Jun 19, 2018 0:17:49 GMT
Tony's showing far more faith in his daughter than the Court et al. This could affect his standing in the bureaucracy if it's shown he's trying to approach diplomacy through the more etherically-inclined fire elemental, than by the methodical and "dignified" human approach (which is no doubt fixated on suppressing the Forest rather than coexisting with it). I highly doubt Tony puts so much emphasis on peace as Annie might, but the fact remains that this is an apolitical move that will be seen as a highly political move if word of this spreads to the wrong ears. I think it's high time someone in the Court took this approach. If the Court higher-ups don't like it, they should remember that their dismissive tone towards the forest-folk has only encouraged resentment from people like Ysengrin. This could be the meeting that finally gets to the roots of the quarrel, as opposed to only going over the immediate problem. |
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Post by madjack on Jun 19, 2018 0:20:10 GMT
It isn't the ponytail/hairstyle so much as the outfit itself. Her drive is definitely back though, and on her own terms. She's not a kid anymore, or at least is starting to grow on her own finally. Edit: You're probably right on Ys' original outfit being based on the Court's though, one of the retrospectives that had a treatise page where Tom described Ys as being similarly base in motivation and goals, so maybe unconscious imitation on Ys' part? Edit again: Well Tom has settled what the outfit is supposed to be all about. |
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Post by crater on Jun 19, 2018 3:44:17 GMT
Yeah
I'm thinking shes back.
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Post by CarbonRabbit on Jun 19, 2018 4:59:14 GMT
Can Coysengrin lie? 🤔
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Post by warrl on Jun 19, 2018 5:45:29 GMT
I'm just saying that against Ysengrin, Parley is pretty redundant. Jones, and maybe Eglamore but I doubt it, are the only ones among them who might stand a fighting chance. I agree it's unlikely that Parley would win a fight against Ysengrin, let alone Ysengoyote. However, she wouldn't have to, if she's expected to rescue Annie from a failed attempt at negotiation. She wouldn't even have to outrun him in an escape attempt, as Eglamore did. When Eglamore was spiriting Annie away to safety, the blinker stone was no part of it. The breaking of a beacon stick was (apparently) to let Eglamore know he was needed. You mean aside from arrive there from somewhere else faster and spirit someone away to safety faster without any worry about pursuit? Those two things seem useful to me. |
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Post by aline on Jun 19, 2018 5:54:36 GMT
She can instantly teleport Annie back to the Court, an ability Eglamore doesn't have. How did I forget that? I apologize to Parley. But now I'm annoyed that Eglamore isn't letting Parley go along! Her presence is vital. Perhaps Annie should consider bringing along Andrew instead, for good luck. She definitely needs somebody with supernatural abilities along for the ride, because fire alone isn't going to save her if Coysengrin decides he doesn't want to listen. Jones is good, but Jones + others is better. Yeah, I'm annoyed at him too. It would be much safer for Annie with the Parley-instant-exit-route. I'm not sure if Eglamore is refusing his permission in the hope that it would change everybody's mind about letting Annie going, or if he really needs her here in the Court. It is true that Eglamore and Parley have a job to do, and with Forest creatures lose somewhere in the rubble, they have a lot of people to protect, not just Annie. But the way he said it, it felt like he was just trying to pressure Tony to keep Annie home. The thing is, right now, I don't think Tony could keep Annie home even if he wanted to. |
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Post by keef on Jun 19, 2018 11:29:25 GMT
I can't help but feel that James is at least partly petty in keeping Parley at the Court. I mean, he's not wrong, if there are creatures inside the barrier he would probably need the two of them, but I also hear a bit of "oh, you need MY student for your plan? well too bad, I'm her boss and she's staying. Also I hate you." Yes, I'm afraid that the real reason why Eglamore is opposing this plan is "the man who stole Surma away from me approves of it". On the last three pages, every sentence the Carvers speak ends with a dot, all of Eglamore's sentences end with an exclamation mark, a lovely way of showing reason against emotion. If Ale & Wenches allowed it, Jimmy would be speaking in all caps. He makes a fool of himself in front of his pupil and his girlfriend*. Reminds me of the beginning of the comic, where both Robot and Kat ended almost every sentence with an exclamation mark, which made them look childish in comparison to Annie's seriousness. (*Assuming you can call Jones that) |
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Post by todd on Jun 19, 2018 12:46:19 GMT
I'm not sure if Eglamore is refusing his permission in the hope that it would change everybody's mind about letting Annie going, or if he really needs her here in the Court. It is true that Eglamore and Parley have a job to do, and with Forest creatures lose somewhere in the rubble, they have a lot of people to protect, not just Annie. But the way he said it, it felt like he was just trying to pressure Tony to keep Annie home. The thing is, right now, I don't think Tony could keep Annie home even if he wanted to. I've been wondering about the forest-folk reported in the Court. Are these the hostile ones like Ysengrin's army? Or are they the more peaceful ones whom Annie and Andrew have met and befriended, who might have fled from the Woods in alarm at Ysengrin's change (and might even want to plead with the Court not to judge everyone else in Gilltie Wood by Ysengrin, fearing that the Court leaders will take a "wipe them all out" approach in response to Ysengrin's attack)? But, judging from the way Eglamore's been behaving, I think that he's forbidding Parley to go more in the hopes of countering "Antony's plan" than because he really needs her help. |
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Post by darlos9d on Jun 19, 2018 13:48:57 GMT
Although I'm surprised she's not wearing her boots. Speculation: Jones, for some reason, won't be able to go through the shield, so she'll end up going alone. Could you link to the boots? All I can remember are the ones that she made for Kat in the forest. Also, I like that speculation, but I was hoping this was an opportunity for Jones to flex her muscles a bit. I too want to see if Coysengrin can withstand the might of the original Smiles Brigade. |
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Post by keef on Jun 19, 2018 15:12:56 GMT
Although I'm surprised she's not wearing her boots. Speculation: Jones, for some reason, won't be able to go through the shield, so she'll end up going alone. Could you link to the boots? All I can remember are the ones that she made for Kat in the forest. We get a better picture of Kat's than we ever get of Annie's, but this'll do I guess. |
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Post by bedinsis on Jun 19, 2018 19:12:11 GMT
How many different outfits have Annie worn during the run of this comic?
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Post by Eversist on Jun 20, 2018 0:06:05 GMT
How many different outfits have Annie worn during the run of this comic? Are we counting flashbacks? Considering she's in some variation of the school uniform for a large part of the beginning, I would hazard a guess of 30+. -- Alright, I got to chapter 20 50 but have to run. This was kinda fun! Maybe I'll finish it later. My count is 33, as of the beginning of chapter 20 50. Most popular so far, by far, is some variation on the school uniform. (If you want to see my craziness in a Google Doc, click here.) It was getting long for a post. |
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Post by zbeeblebrox on Jun 20, 2018 5:42:57 GMT
Hmmm, interesting question. I'm gonna guess that since Coyote couldn't lie, then Ysengrin can't lie anymore either. After all, you are what you eat. |
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Post by pyradonis on Jun 20, 2018 12:48:26 GMT
Hmmm, interesting question. I'm gonna guess that since Coyote couldn't lie, then Ysengrin can't lie anymore either. After all, you are what you eat. Did it say anywhere Coyote was not able to lie? All Jones said was "Coyote is no liar." |
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Post by blazingstar on Jun 20, 2018 14:16:01 GMT
How many different outfits have Annie worn during the run of this comic? Are we counting flashbacks? Considering she's in some variation of the school uniform for a large part of the beginning, I would hazard a guess of 30+. -- Alright, I got to chapter 20 50 but have to run. This was kinda fun! Maybe I'll finish it later. My count is 33, as of the beginning of chapter 20 50. Most popular so far, by far, is some variation on the school uniform. (If you want to see my craziness in a Google Doc, click here.) It was getting long for a post. I am so glad someone else wasted their time doing this so I wouldn't have to. The fruits of your labor are astounding, and you're amazing for it. Also, Tom is amazing for designing all those outfits, even though he could have been lazy and drawn her in her uniforms all the time. |
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Post by tc on Jun 27, 2018 5:07:12 GMT
I can't help but feel that James is at least partly petty in keeping Parley at the Court. I mean, he's not wrong, if there are creatures inside the barrier he would probably need the two of them, but I also hear a bit of "oh, you need MY student for your plan? well too bad, I'm her boss and she's staying. Also I hate you." Yes, I'm afraid that the real reason why Eglamore is opposing this plan is "the man who stole Surma away from me approves of it". I reckon that's part of it - however I also reckon there's something deeper at play here. For one thing I now suspect very strongly that Eglamore outright blames Tony for Surma's death - and not just in the sense that Tony's medical skills couldn't save her; he seems to remain unwilling or unable to accept that marrying Tony and having Annie together were decisions that Surma made of her own free will and (particularly regarding the latter) with eyes wide open to the probable consequences. I think it was fish who came up with an interpretation I really liked and riffed on a while back... : ...[it's possible that] what ultimately led Surma to develop deeper feelings for Tony than she did Jimmy was the fact that Jimmy seemed to be so caught up in being a chivalrous "protector" type that he ended up making Surma feel like she was being shut out. She hinted that she was getting frustrated by Jimmy always being away on training in the flashback at the end of "S1", and for those who joined the story more recently she did so again at the start of this chapter [Ch. 64 - "Get Lost"]. Contrast this with Tony, who - while he's done his best to help Surma feel comfortable and did initially offer to do the work himself - took her at her word when she said she wanted in as an active participant, and seems to be encouraging and assisting her where necessary... I'd hazard a guess that we're seeing the same thing happening here, but before getting into that aspect there's an interesting implication around Eglamore's convictions that I hadn't twigged before - namely that had Surma remained with him, Jimmy's desire to prolong Surma's life may well have resulted in outright refusal to have children on his part. His bitterness towards Tony appears to have many layers, and one of those seems to hang on a belief that even if Tony didn't talk Surma into having a child together, he didn't try to talk her out of it either. Jimmy's notion of love seems to hinge on his instinctive drive to be protective, noble and self-sacrificing for a greater good when necessary. Up to a certain point those can be good things - but real humans are rather more complex than characters in fairy tales, and for all that Jimmy believed he was approaching things with the best intentions, he was actually holding Surma's personal growth and development back in doing so. His character's central tragedy is that the bitterness is still consuming him (and preventing his own growth as a person) roughly two decades later. So, now we're seeing Eglamore chastising Tony for not merely allowing Annie to visit Gillitie Wood, but actively encouraging her to do so. In many ways it's almost history repeating itself - Eglamore's immediate assumption is that the idea was Tony's, and even when both Tony and Jones explain that the idea was Annie's own, he doesn't listen. Tony calmly and logically explains both why he was wrong in agreeing to prevent Annie from visiting the forest and that he learned he was wrong by studying what his daughter had achieved there during his absence - but again, Eglamore simply refuses to understand. The first two panels of the next page pretty much encapsulate why Surma saw a more self-fulfilling future with Tony than she did Jimmy : JIMMY : It's too dangerous! TONY : I want to give Antimony the chance to help in her own way, instead of hiding here in the rubble. Even after all this time, Jimmy still doesn't seem to understand that an important part of loving someone is taking their wishes into account, even if letting them do what they feel a need to do scares the shit out of you. Tom throws in some ninja-level subtext storytelling on p.2001 that I didn't pick up on at first. On that one page we learn several important things... : - That Tony has a much higher regard for Annie's capabilities and potential than we've seen him let on
- That Tony (unsurprisingly for a scientist) makes decisions and will change his mind based on evidence
- That the confrontation with Coyote seemed to shake Tony out of his funk and make more effort to learn about what his daughter has managed in his absence
- That Tony's consent to Annie's request is an informed decision as a result of what he's learned, and implicitly not a choice he made lightly
On the next page, Tony's statement about wanting to give Annie a chance to help implies that he has also gained an insight into his daughter's personality (i.e. a tendency to take full responsibility almost to a fault, and a natural inclination to make things right if she can), and he understands that preventing her from doing so would very likely do her harm in the long run. [If this hunch of mine is in the ballpark, it would certainly imply an extra dimension to Tony's spending more time with Kat since Coyote's tantrum following Annie's forest ban][EDIT : OK, so this might not convince a jury - but back in "Katurday" we see Kat talking up Annie's contribution in front of Tony. We also see that Kat has told Tony about Shadow. As readers we know that it would be impossible to tell Shadow's story in such a way as to remove Annie's part in it, and it's reasonable to assume that it's not the first time Kat has been talking about Annie while working with Tony. The thought occurs that Tony was hearing a fair bit about his daughter as a person in ways that he couldn't get from reading her student and court files...] Ysengrin once expressed his view that Tony couldn't see past Surma's ghost and see his "incredible" daughter for what she is. Ys may even have been right at the time he said it (Annie's first visit to the forest after Tony's return). But it looks like Tony has been making up for lost time behind the scenes for a while now, and though he's still mistakenly of the belief that he doesn't have the right to call himself a parent to Annie, Tony's methodical response to Eglamore's anger is the closest he can come to saying that he's proud of his daughter and believes she can help significantly in terms of resolving the crisis. Of course, we've seen indications that Eglamore also sometimes sees Annie as the last living part of Surma - and not in a particularly healthy way... |
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Post by madjack on Jun 27, 2018 6:00:05 GMT
I like that reasoning behind Tony getting close to Kat, covering multiple bases by engaging his daughter's best friend to learn what he's missed out on as well as sorting himself a new hand and helping Kat's development as a leader and engineer along.
Also going to throw my 2c into Eggers/Surma: I've posted it before somewhere before, but I don't think what you described is where James' bitterness exactly comes from. It wasn't his innate protectiveness itself (and theoretical refusal to have a kid with her, although that was a part of it) or his failure to 'protect' her. It was that he couldn't reconcile that protectiveness with his awareness of his fire elemental girlfriend's life cycle: That she effectively wanted him to kill her and he couldn't do it. As seen with him always being off training ("he does it all for you"), Eglamore's defining flaw is that he can't put anyone but himself first.
Edit: Also, that fire elemental life cycle could explain why Surma hated Jones. It wasn't her relationship to Eggers she didn't like, but being friends with him meant she probably found out Jones was an immortal (or whatever) at an age where she really hadn't come to terms with the fact she was going to die young.
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Post by tc on Jun 27, 2018 8:48:51 GMT
It was that he couldn't reconcile that protectiveness with his awareness of his fire elemental girlfriend's life cycle: That she effectively wanted him to kill her and he couldn't do it. As seen with him always being off training ("he does it all for you"), Eglamore's defining flaw is that he can't put anyone but himself first. I'm guessing you meant "can't put himself first" or similar... That's an interesting take, however I must admit that I'm not sure about some of it. I'm sure in Jimmy's mind his training to become Knight Protector to the Court (and especially Surma) was being done for her above all - but it seems that he never asked Surma herself what she wanted from their relationship. Also, I think they were only about 18 years old when they broke up, so it's possible the question of kids had yet to come up - at least in any serious sense. Jimmy's intentions were almost certainly good, but he lacked the emotional maturity to realise that the future he was planning for them both would have been almost entirely on his terms, leaving Surma with little agency of her own. We'd seen Surma starting to question things the winter before her expedition with Tony, which implies that Jimmy was so focused on his notion of their relationship that he wasn't paying proper attention to Surma's own feelings for about 6 months. If Jimmy has an overriding character flaw I think it's the fact that he's never learned the value of introspection. When Surma told him that she and Tony had fallen in love, Jimmy seemingly didn't try to understand or analyse his own actions leading up to it. Instead he cast himself in the role of "tragically spurned romantic hero" and Tony as the "manipulative, deceitful villain" in his head, and that seems to have informed every opinion he has formed since. In Jimmy's mind, Tony manipulated Surma into leaving Jimmy - therefore he must have manipulated her into getting pregnant too; possibly by arrogantly promising he could save her life. The ironic thing is that in nursing that comforting fiction for almost 20 years, he's making the same mistake that cost him Surma - namely being unable take Surma's own desires into account. Again, interesting idea - however Surma would have been aware of her condition and what it meant from childhood. When she was telling Tony about it on the expedition, it just seemed to be an accepted family trait - I think Surma had made her peace with it from a very young age. For what it may be worth, I think it was mostly jealousy over Jimmy - but I also wonder if Jones's appearance (or lack thereof) on the etheric plane might have made Surma uncomfortable. |
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