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Post by zaferion on Jun 16, 2018 8:24:54 GMT
This page is actually building up my hate for Tony. Is there any page that doesn't make you hate Tony more? You spew vitriol every time the comic even vaguely mentions him. Wait! I've got it. This is actually Eggboy's account and that's why you hate Tony so much. |
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Post by zbeeblebrox on Jun 16, 2018 9:26:25 GMT
[quotes quotes quotes] (etc) A bit off topic, but let's all try to refrain from further quote-breakdown posts moving forward. In twenty-five years of seeing them on the internet, I've never stumbled across a single productive discussion to come of them. Just lots of context-free arguing that goes nowhere. A good rule of thumb is to never quote the same post more than twice in your comment if you want that user to respond productively, and only quote an isolated sentence if it's either the entirety of the post or separated into its own paragraph by the user. |
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Post by fia on Jun 16, 2018 11:26:27 GMT
While I can sort of see where the negative reactions are coming from, this page made me feel REALLY HAPPY.
This is revolutionary information:
(a) Tony thinks Annie is not only capable, but the ONLY person qualified for the job
(b) Tony believes Annie is brave and resourceful
(c) Tony ***trusts Annie***
I agree there may be a complaint about Tony not expressing all this to her, but before this page we could only speculate about Tony's attitudes. This is a Big Deal! Like a huge huge reveal!
I felt like I have been waiting for this page for literally years.
I also can say confidently that I do not read Tony as manipulative at all. Coyote is manipulative, Diego was manipulative, even Kat abd Annie make elaborate plans with many moving parts, but Tony reads to me like more of an observer. I think he acts on what he knows and believes and when he is made aware of not knowing something he works on it (which is honestly more than I can say for most people I know).
Nonetheless, that core strength is not enough to make up for his Major Character Flaw, viz., his social incapacitation and emotional disregulation around personal and family matters, especially with his wife dying and his strained relationship with his daughter.
So again: shitty dad - but intentionally so? I don't think so at all.
Recall even Ysengrin remarked Annie cheating would make him upset. And although Annie had to move out of the dorms to repeat a grade, Tony never prohibited her from seeing her old friends. He even took an interest in her closest friend. I think Tony is trying really hard, I think he is just terrible at being a person. I think if Tony had a wolf face maybe everyone would be in love with him (because put Ysengrin's or Rey's dialogue on a human and it becomes real pitiful and weird and creepy real fast).
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Post by faiiry on Jun 16, 2018 16:10:41 GMT
This page is actually building up my hate for Tony. Is there any page that doesn't make you hate Tony more? You spew vitriol every time the comic even vaguely mentions him. Wait! I've got it. This is actually Eggboy's account and that's why you hate Tony so much. Not my fault. If he didn't suck so badly and do stupid/terrible things on every page he's in, I wouldn't have to hate him. |
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Post by lemarc on Jun 16, 2018 16:27:09 GMT
Tony is a bad person, but in the sense that he's bad at being a person, not that he's malevolent. People seem eager to attribute bad motives to him, but we've never seen him be malicious or consciously selfish, his cock-ups all seem to be due to social incompetence or poor judgment. There's no sense in jumping to conclusions and assuming the worst about him, just treat him as what he is.
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Post by avurai on Jun 16, 2018 17:25:16 GMT
Tony is a bad person, but in the sense that he's bad at being a person, not that he's malevolent. People seem eager to attribute bad motives to him, but we've never seen him be malicious or consciously selfish, his cock-ups all seem to be due to social incompetence or poor judgment. There's no sense in jumping to conclusions and assuming the worst about him, just treat him as what he is. People were treating him as what he is when he was emotionally neglecting Antimomy via two years of absence, had a sudden appearance immediately followed by verbal insults, restricted her personal agency, and when we noticed her reaction being a regression to a muted and emotionally stunted personality-state. Actions and their consequences speak for themselves. We can argue intent all we want. The results of a parent’s behavior are what matter. His current behavior is a step up in that it’s showing an attempt at connection and what could be construed as his version of warmth, but I want to make very clear that the most important part of Tony’s character arc is whether he will continue on an upward trajectory from here or if this will be one of few unique instances which only occur when mutually beneficial. He’s making progress—but to follow Anthony’s logic, what’s vital is gathering enough data to know whether this is an isolated incident or part of a larger shift. Him returning Renard to her was step one. This incident is step two. We need a step three to determine that this is a reliable trend. His starting point was so legitimately terrible and psychologically damaging that he’s working from a deficit. I feel no qualms about him needing to earn his way back up. Tl:dr You’re doing better, Tony. Don’t disappoint us. |
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Post by warrl on Jun 16, 2018 17:31:54 GMT
The best of intentions can still turn out to be paving material on a certain roadway...
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Post by todd on Jun 17, 2018 0:09:22 GMT
I wonder whether it might have been a better idea for Jones to be the one to tell the news to Eglamore, making no mention of Antony's approval of Annie's volunteering, and having him quietly leave before Eglamore arrived. Then Eglamore might be able to handle the situation more objectively, without his old feud coloring his perspective. (Of course, there'd also still be the matter that it's Surma's daughter who's taking on this mission.)
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Post by machiavelli33 on Jun 17, 2018 6:22:06 GMT
Not my fault. If he didn't suck so badly and do stupid/terrible things on every page he's in, I wouldn't have to hate him. There's a chance you aren't being serious, saying this. But if you are... Hatred is a choice. Every time. Righteous or petty. Justified or unjustified. It is a choice. Blaming the target for your hatred is akin to blaming a victim for their abuse. Your emotions are yours and yours only. Hatred in particular is a tree that *will not grow* unless it is watered - and the only one holding the watering can is you. You'd do well to remember this, lest you lose all credibility for your opinion here - as a reader and, for my part, as a human being. |
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Post by antiyonder on Jun 17, 2018 16:31:56 GMT
Despite my earlier/earliest posts ranting about him, I'd say Tony's in the middle for the time being. Definitely because as mentioned he only lets Annie have a go at talking only because he researched her history rather than learning about it by talking with her. But I still think giving her a choice and over living arrangements is at least a good start on his side. Though I can't really blame those for keeping on their first impression stance. I mean redemption of either a flat out villain, antagonistic protagonist or flawed parent is too easy to fumble. Many writers think it's enough after all to give said character type a sob story and apologetic speech without realizing that they need to put themselves through even more Hell to right their wrongs before reaching redemption or a happy ending. If Tony's continues with more effort on his part for his daughter rather than merely a single gesture, I'll consider him a success. Regardless though I think that before the chapter is over, he'll have to face James' fist while Annie deals with facing her it  . |
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Post by artezzatrigger on Jun 17, 2018 17:38:02 GMT
I say this as someone who hated Anthony thoroughly during his initial chapter appearances, and is still very iffy about him:
It boggles my mind how people are able to take a clear cut example of a character showing the capacity to admit they were wrong when they obtain new information, and still somehow twist it around to hate on them even more.
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Post by antiyonder on Jun 17, 2018 23:55:38 GMT
It boggles my mind how people are able to take a clear cut example of a character showing the capacity to admit they were wrong when they obtain new information, and still somehow twist it around to hate on them even more. Well as I touched upon redemption is something that some fumble up easily. Going with my personal opinion as of late, him offering to let Antimony live with him again is a good start which would need to be followed with more actions in the same vein, but some writers might feel it unnecessary to give him even a good start at bettering himself and let his backstory and a possible apology suffice. |
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Post by faiiry on Jun 18, 2018 1:17:55 GMT
Not my fault. If he didn't suck so badly and do stupid/terrible things on every page he's in, I wouldn't have to hate him. There's a chance you aren't being serious, saying this. But if you are... Hatred is a choice. Every time. Righteous or petty. Justified or unjustified. It is a choice. Blaming the target for your hatred is akin to blaming a victim for their abuse. Your emotions are yours and yours only. Hatred in particular is a tree that *will not grow* unless it is watered - and the only one holding the watering can is you. You'd do well to remember this, lest you lose all credibility for your opinion here - as a reader and, for my part, as a human being.  |
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Post by antiyonder on Jun 18, 2018 1:24:52 GMT
There's a chance you aren't being serious, saying this. But if you are... Hatred is a choice. Every time. Righteous or petty. Justified or unjustified. It is a choice. Blaming the target for your hatred is akin to blaming a victim for their abuse. Your emotions are yours and yours only. Hatred in particular is a tree that *will not grow* unless it is watered - and the only one holding the watering can is you. You'd do well to remember this, lest you lose all credibility for your opinion here - as a reader and, for my part, as a human being. Nonetheless, I think it would be weak for the story to suddenly having Tony be father of the year for our peace of mind for Annie and him. But I do get where you're coming from and suggest you look into my earliest posts to see how much more I disliked him if you think I'm dismissing your concern. |
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Post by pyradonis on Jun 18, 2018 16:51:58 GMT
How Tony (might) be interpreting this conversation: 1. James accuses him of forcing Antimony into going on this mission 2. Tony refutes James' claim, and Jones backs him up
3. James questions his ability to think about and understand the situation with Antimony ("without a second thought")
4. Tony explains the reasoning behind his past decisions, and demonstrates that he has learned a lot about how brilliant and talented his daughter is
5. James reminds Tony of the danger Antimony will be in, what with all the unknowns in the situation 6. Tony expresses his confidence in his daughter's ability to assess the situation herself, and face it with courage
How James (might) be interpreting this conversation: 1. James demands to know why Tony is going along with Annie's plan so easily
2. Tony dodges the question 3. James accuses Tony of being more concerned with his own secret agendas than Antimony's safety 4. Tony expresses his view of Antimony as a useful tool for his secret agendas 5. James reminds Tony of the danger Antimony will be in, what with all the unknowns in the situation
6. Tony says he doesn't care, he'll make Antimony do this no matter what the danger is
I think they're both honestly trying to explain themselves and give the other person a chance to do the same, but they're failing miserably because of how differently they think. I know that none of us could possibly have predicted this at the outset, but it turns out this conversation is NOT GOING TO END WELL.
It was always the case with those two, was it not? "Jeez, who talks like that?" |
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Post by todd on Jun 19, 2018 0:10:30 GMT
It was always the case with those two, was it not? "Jeez, who talks like that?" Antony seems far more the adult here than Eglamore does. |
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