[2001] Antimony will face it.

[haspen]

That kinda way of speech only provides more fuel to Eggers' rant, you know that Tony?

However the thinking goes:
Tony: "Antimony will face it" (because I know she can do it)
Eggers: "Antimony will face it" (because you demand her to do that)

[madjack]

The moment Surma gets mentioned Eggs is gonna lose it.

[Nepycros]

Man, Tony's logic seems so inorganic, yet perfectly in character. That blunt delivery, the retrospective defensiveness and subsequent change in attitude, conveniently bringing it up now of all times to settle an argument rather than to reconnect with his daughter...

It's both really well written, AND leaves me feeling weirdly about Tony.

[youwiththeface]

She ''will'' face it. Not she's able to, not she's choosing to, she will. Mm, don't like that. He makes it sound like his decision, as if he could stop her if she really wanted to go.

And come to think of it, isn't Tony lucky he's got Antimony so cowed? It's not like he could physically stop her if she ever wanted to do something he didn't want her to do.

[philman]

He's still a shitty dad, but at least he appreciates Annie's strengths now. People can be shitty in some ways and still be decent in others.

[arf]

Antimony will face it, with fire.

(but what if there is a creature that can handle fire? Did Ys ever get around to that?*)

*Update: Antimony will face the creature that can handle fire with spankies!

[Sauzels]

Who's the guy in the bottom-left panel?

[aline]

Jun 15, 2018 7:16:32 GMT Nepycros said:

Man, Tony's logic seems so inorganic, yet perfectly in character. That blunt delivery, the retrospective defensiveness and subsequent change in attitude, conveniently bringing it up now of all times to settle an argument rather than to reconnect with his daughter...

It would be completely unrealistic, after all this, if Tony suddenly started a heartfelt speech to Annie about his love and appreciation. We all want it, because frankly she deserves it, but... well... if Tony could do this, the previous ten chapters would make no sense. He'll have to get there little by little.

He's making some progress at least. He's no longer pretending he doesn't have a daughter, he wants here to live with him, he wants to try. He'll get there.

[fjodorii]

Question: who wrote those reports? Transcribed from video tapes delivered by the Tic Toc News Network perhaps?

[madjack]

Jun 15, 2018 8:54:51 GMT fjodorii said:

Question: who wrote those reports? Transcribed from video tapes delivered by the Tic Toc News Network perhaps?

At a guess, Smitty and Jones?

Edit: Also, that same page has Eggers (warily) trusting Annie's judgement with regards to Ysengrin, so ?

[Anthony]

Eglamore: "And you will face my fist!"

[faiiry]

Oh come on! Even in flashbacks we don't REALLY get to see Coyote knocking over those buildings?! This is the one chapter I want to see remade, if only so we can see it from the characters' perspectives.

Also, sorry Tony, but I'm still with Eggs on this one. Sure, you've done your research, but you're sending Annie in with basically no preparation, no meaningful protection and no failsafe measures against two literal gods. For god's sake, Renard isn't even going with her. 

Furthermore, you weren't aware of the work she had done there, Tony? Sure, you rudely interrupted her when she tried to tell you about it, but on that same page, you made it clear that you were aware of "the nonsense with the forest" and you had no truck with it. Also, when the Court told you that "the business with the forest pissed them off," did they literally only tell you, "There's some business with the forest and we're pissed"? I think not. You were aware Annie was going into the forest and building a bond with the gods there, you just didn't care because you were too busy being a crusty orifice. The other option is that you had no idea what was going on in the forest with your daughter, and you didn't care enough to research it until after things got real with Coyote, which is just... cruddy. That's cruddy parenting. Not to mention you berated her for activities you knew nothing about! 

This page is actually building up my hate for Tony. First because he apparently only researched/tried to understand "the business with the forest" after he'd angrily chastised and punished Annie for it, and secondly because I was forced to reread The Tree to find that first page, and I hate The Tree. I was reminded there are many instances in that delightful chapter where Tony damn well didn't have to be as cruel to his daughter as he was. He only did it because, again, he's a crusty orifice and he couldn't deal with the fact that she reminds him of her mother, and he took it out on the poor girl. There's an amount of cruelty that can be explained away by the Court forcing Tony to dish it out, and that amount was far exceeded by how he treated her.

Anyways, I'm off track. Tony, I don't believe you and you can suck eggs.

[imaginaryfriend]

Would Anthony have defended Antimony's abilities if Antimony had remained here to listen? Methinks not. But she is not here and not only is she gone but the roof access door is shut so there is not much chance of her sneaking back to hear this (bottom left panel, previous page). Still, progress.

[ffkonoko]

Jun 15, 2018 7:20:27 GMT youwiththeface said:

She ''will'' face it. Not she's able to, not she's choosing to, she will. Mm, don't like that. He makes it sound like his decision, as if he could stop her if she really wanted to go.

I don't read it that way and don't really see why you choose to. She is able to, and she is choosing to. He's her father and he worries about her, hence wanting her to have support anyway. And yes, if when he asked her if she was confident she could do it, she had said something else...he probably wouldn't have gone along with it so easily, tried to talk her out of it. But that is entirely separate to him saying she will face it. She will face it, because she has made that decision. She'd do it either way, and Eglamore trying to claim a moral highground for his ongoing anti-tony crusade won't stop that. Funnily enough, you're kinda being the Eglamore. Sorry for using this as a transition, don't take it as an insult.

Eglamore has had lots of issues about this for a long time, Jones called him on his "Carver girl" BS ages ago, but this is more directly showing how his ongoing ill will towards Tony (through jealousy and bitterness) blinds him. And his bias leads him to interpret everything Tony says in a bad way, even when it's not. Things are being viewed through a lens due to pre-existing feelings.

If Tony weren't involved, Eglamore might have come up with basically the exact same plan, if Annie had come to him. Pretty sure there are instances from him in the past along the lines of trusting Annie's ability to deal with the forest and Ysengrin, even directly after he had attacked her, and of letting her do something dangerous but suggesting she goes in with support.

[yinglung]

Jun 15, 2018 10:40:33 GMT imaginaryfriend said:

Would Anthony have defended Antimony's abilities if Antimony had remained here to listen? Methinks not. But she is not here and not only is she gone but the roof access door is shut so there is not much chance of her sneaking back to hear this (bottom left panel, previous page). Still, progress.

...what? If I recall correctly, the previous times he has been doubtful/disparaging about Antimony's abilities, it was was either going on partial, possibly biased information, or when Annie was helping Kat with robots. Considering Annie's difficulty with science, the latter is not unreasonable. More relevant to current events, above all else, Tony tries to be practical. If Annie was around, why would he refrain from giving a straightforward assessment of her abilities in defense of a vital operation? It's not like she's being as reckless as he thought she was in the beginning, and it's not like she is bad at dealing with ethereal entities. It seems like you see Tony as being manipulative and controlling for its own sake, rather than a bad response to finding out Annie was cheating at school and running off into a forest of monsters to talk to a physical god.

[imaginaryfriend]

Jun 15, 2018 11:51:11 GMT yinglung said:

If Annie was around, why would he refrain from giving a straightforward assessment of her abilities in defense of a vital operation? It's not like she's being as reckless as he thought she was in the beginning, and it's not like she is bad at dealing with ethereal entities. It seems like you see Tony as being manipulative and controlling for its own sake, rather than a bad response to finding out Annie was cheating at school and running off into a forest of monsters to talk to a physical god.

I started discussing a theory about that in this thread here. No, I don't think he's being manipulative and controlling for its own sake as such, though there has been a past reference by Donald to Anthony being controlling, I think these are attempts to preserve their father/daughter relationship as Anthony sees it.

[ohthatone]

I am ...mixed about this page. on the one hand, I'm super happy Tony has faith in Annie's strength. on the other hand, I feel like he's viewing Annie as "peer" and not "child" and that leaves me uneasy with how quickly and easily his decision is to let her go into the forest in this circumstance. on the other other hand, he basically abandoned her for years. He doesn't really get to play concerned parent now. on the other other other hand, she wants him to be her parent, so maybe show a little concern?

Maybe James would feel better if he switched places with Parley. She's supposed to protect the Court and it's medium anyway. But on the other hand, James will probably be on a hair trigger...ugh i'll stop with the hands now (no promises)

[todd]

It struck me as truly in character for Antony to change his mind about Annie visiting the forest as a result of painstaking research and analysis of her past visits.

And Antony's right about one thing: Annie is "the only qualified person" for this mission. If Eglamore could produce someone else at the Court who'd gotten to know Ysengrin as well as she had, who'd seen his more vulnerable side, and who had brought out a more fatherly nature from him, it'd be different. But so far, there's no one else.

And going to see Ysengrin was all her idea. Nobody forced her into it.

[yinglung]

Jun 15, 2018 12:22:34 GMT imaginaryfriend said:

Jun 15, 2018 11:51:11 GMT yinglung said:

If Annie was around, why would he refrain from giving a straightforward assessment of her abilities in defense of a vital operation? It's not like she's being as reckless as he thought she was in the beginning, and it's not like she is bad at dealing with ethereal entities. It seems like you see Tony as being manipulative and controlling for its own sake, rather than a bad response to finding out Annie was cheating at school and running off into a forest of monsters to talk to a physical god.

I started discussing a theory about that in this thread here. No, I don't think he's being manipulative and controlling for its own sake as such, though there has been a past reference by Donald to Anthony being controlling, I think these are attempts to preserve their father/daughter relationship as Anthony sees it.

Hmm. I don't want to discount your experiences with people with similar parenting tactics, so I think I'll just agree to disagree on how much what you describe is going on here.

[ctso74]

I wonder, what's Tony's outlook on Annie's future? Unless the Etheric beating he took, shaved years off his life, he could easily live long enough to be a grandfather. It's not unreasonable to think Annie will make a similar choice as Surma, about having a child. He may already believe, he'll be forced to see her die, just like Surma. She really is the person most qualified to talk with Coysengrin, but I wonder if a part of him thinks, he's helping Annie live her chosen life while she can, and at worst meeting death on her terms.

[Spoopy]

Jun 15, 2018 12:45:05 GMT todd said:

It struck me as truly in character for Antony to change his mind about Annie visiting the forest as a result of painstaking research and analysis of her past visits.

This. Not actually talking to his daughter, or listening to her, but doing his own independent research. Sigh. Oh Tony.

At least, perhaps this is his own way of trying to finally come around to seeing his daughter as her own person with her own strengths, rather than only seeing her through the context of Surma's death.

Anyone else notice that Tom is drawing Tony a bit differently in this chapter versus, say, how Tony looks in The Tree? I don't know if it's intentional or just from The Tree being 3 years ago (!) now but his face looks generally less harsh and more warm, with bigger eyes, smoother angles and less emphasis on lines and scars. It might just be natural progression in his art or something but I find it interesting. Tony looks less scary and more human here than he did when he first showed up.

[unbalanced]

This isn't really any big revelation, but something that I had to check as a result of this page is the timeline of Coyote's visit. At first, I thought that Tony meant Coyote knocked down a building, and then he studied Annie's history in the forest and let her back into the forest. But according to Coyote's narration of chapter 54, it seemed that the whole incident was one single event with no gaps. So Tony really had initially let Annie visit again only because of Coyote's suggestion of what it was doing to Annie, and then later studied her work in the forest, silently and on his own, serving only to change his mind that he had made the right choice conceding to Coyote's request.

[pyradonis]

Jun 15, 2018 7:41:14 GMT Sauzels said:

Who's the guy in the bottom-left panel?

No idea, but I hope Eglamore steps in if that guy starts to threaten anyone.

BTW, when I saw panel 3, at first I thought Tony had a printed out drawing of Coyote pushing over the building in his room. But of course this is nonsense. Tony would never have a picture in his house that is not hanging straight (is that how you say it in English? I am not sure.)

[Eve Swann]

Jun 15, 2018 16:37:25 GMT pyradonis said:

Jun 15, 2018 7:41:14 GMT Sauzels said:

Who's the guy in the bottom-left panel?

No idea, but I hope Eglamore steps in if that guy starts to threaten anyone.

BTW, when I saw panel 3, at first I thought Tony had a printed out drawing of Coyote pushing over the building in his room. But of course this is nonsense. Tony would never have a picture in his house that is not hanging straight (is that how you say it in English? I am not sure.)

Who's Eglamore again? I haven't seen him in so long I can't remember...

[Runningflame]

Jun 15, 2018 16:37:25 GMT pyradonis said:

Tony would never have a picture in his house that is not hanging straight (is that how you say it in English? I am not sure.)

Yep, that's exactly how you say it in English.

[eureka]

I know this is an exceptionally cynical take on it, but it's not out of the realm of possibility that Anthony absolutely knows how much a little praise from him can manipulate Annie into aligning with the his/the court's interests. Everything since his return has felt exceptionally manipulative/controlling to me -- separate her from her peers by pushing her back a grade (which seemed like a pretty harsh punishment for cheating), force her to move out of the dorms and into an isolated hole, monitor her interactions with her best friend and insert himself into that dynamic and act completely reasonable in front of Kat... it just feels really abuser-y. Especially when he suddenly finds his words and is nicey-nicey when the proverbial poo hits the fan.

I get that Annie is a reminder of his dead(?) wife, but emotionally neglecting her for ages and then coming in and separating her from the support structures she built in his absence makes me really heckin' mad. I don't trust him OR his intentions.

[youwiththeface]

Jun 15, 2018 10:46:56 GMT ffkonoko said:

Jun 15, 2018 7:20:27 GMT youwiththeface said:

She ''will'' face it. Not she's able to, not she's choosing to, she will. Mm, don't like that. He makes it sound like his decision, as if he could stop her if she really wanted to go.

I don't read it that way and don't really see why you choose to. She is able to, and she is choosing to.

I'm not choosing to read it that way, I just am.

Jun 15, 2018 10:46:56 GMT ffkonoko said:

He's her father and he worries about her, hence wanting her to have support anyway.

*snort* Hey thanks for that, I needed the laugh.

Jun 15, 2018 10:46:56 GMT ffkonoko said:

And yes, if when he asked her if she was confident she could do it, she had said something else...he probably wouldn't have gone along with it so easily, tried to talk her out of it. But that is entirely separate to him saying she will face it. She will face it, because she has made that decision. She'd do it either way, and Eglamore trying to claim a moral highground for his ongoing anti-tony crusade won't stop that. Funnily enough, you're kinda being the Eglamore. Sorry for using this as a transition, don't take it as an insult.

No, actually I thank you, as I think Eglamore has a point. Especially since Tony keeps doing this. He tried to keep Annie from going to the forest because it was too dangerous....after leaving her at Gunnerkrigg Court for over two years without so much as a warning about the dangerous things that hang around there. Then changed his mind not because of Annie herself, but because of Coyote and research he did. (Research, by the way, he probably should've done before all this stuff happened. Or better yet, maybe asked Annie or talked about her experiences at the Court with her.)

Eglamore has his own biases, sure, but he's not wrong.

Jun 15, 2018 10:46:56 GMT ffkonoko said:

If Tony weren't involved, Eglamore might have come up with basically the exact same plan, if Annie had come to him. Pretty sure there are instances from him in the past along the lines of trusting Annie's ability to deal with the forest and Ysengrin, even directly after he had attacked her, and of letting her do something dangerous but suggesting she goes in with support.

This is actually not quite true, as it was Eglamore who chewed her out for acting carelessly around Ysengrin after he attacked her and Annie needed rescuing.

[todd]

I still think that Eglamore ought to be offering an alternate solution to letting Annie try reaching Ysengrin; it would strengthen his case. (Though I can't think of any better ideas - except maybe the Court packing its bags and moving to another part of the world - and maybe, while it's about it, abandoning the whole "study and manipulate the ether" project. And I can't imagine the Court administration agreeing to that.)

Incidentally, it occurred to me that this could be a foil for the Founders' murder of Jeanne. This time around:

1. The young woman volunteers to help solve the problems with the Forest, and even proposes the idea, rather than being conscripted by others.

2. Instead of fighting and slaughtering the forest-folk, she'll try reasoning with them (or their leader, at least) - and out of concern, not just for the Court, but for Ysengrin's well-being as well.

3. The rejected suitor (though here rejected by the young woman's mother instead of by the young woman herself), instead of being in favor of the plan (even its chier orchestrator), is its leading opponent.

[mturtle7]

How Tony (might) be interpreting this conversation:    

1. James accuses him of forcing Antimony into going on this mission

2. Tony refutes James' claim, and Jones backs him up

3. James questions his ability to think about and understand the situation with Antimony ("without a second thought")

4. Tony explains the reasoning behind his past decisions, and demonstrates that he has learned a lot about how brilliant and talented his daughter is

5. James reminds Tony of the danger Antimony will be in, what with all the unknowns in the situation

6. Tony expresses his confidence in his daughter's ability to assess the situation herself, and face it with courage

How James (might) be interpreting this conversation:

1. James demands to know why Tony is going along with Annie's plan so easily

2. Tony dodges the question

3. James accuses Tony of being more concerned with his own secret agendas than Antimony's safety

4. Tony expresses his view of Antimony as a useful tool for his secret agendas

5. James reminds Tony of the danger Antimony will be in, what with all the unknowns in the situation

6. Tony says he doesn't care, he'll make Antimony do this no matter what the danger is

I think they're both honestly trying to explain themselves and give the other person a chance to do the same, but they're failing miserably because of how differently they think. I know that none of us could possibly have predicted this at the outset, but it turns out this conversation is NOT GOING TO END WELL.

[warrl]

I know that none of us could possibly have predicted this at the outset, but it turns out this conversation is NOT GOING TO END WELL.

Oh, I think we could have predicted that rather easily.