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Post by arkadi on Feb 19, 2018 17:51:20 GMT
Welp.
For all those speculating on how this may turn out, or what it may lead to: we've been here before, we've seen this scene, and we know it didn't play out like this. I'm sticking to my theory that this is all a simulation set up by Coyote. None of this is "really" happening.
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Post by zimmyzims on Feb 19, 2018 18:16:57 GMT
Personally, I would find this an amazing way to end his story, and a very interesting turn in the big story line. How though? There are so many things about Coyote that have yet to be resolved. So many plotlines and potential plotlines that have not yet met their close. Coyote is not only a major player, but also the most interesting and compelling character in the comic - he could maybe even be called its breakout character. If his story ends now, it will certainly be a surprise, but it will also be a massive cop-out and an extremely frustrating turn in an already-frustrating story. The only way I would accept Coyote's "death" is if he is somehow resurrected by the presence of the tooth-knife and/or the vial he gave Parley. That Coyote is "the most interesting and compelling character", as well as that the story is frustrating, are your personal opinions that I do not half-share. I don't find the story frustrating. It has been a little bit linear and mellow recently, but now here are again some unexpected and drastic turns to spice things up. As to Coyote, he is just the most powerful character, and that power removed from the world of the story could make things more interesting, particularly if a significant part of it falls to the hands of completely different character who has a penchant for aggression. Other storylines, including those in which Coyote's been involved, continue and get different courses if he's not there. Mysteries of Coyote that are important for the rest of the story can be found out without him being present (he's been there for a while, he isn't the only one in possession of knowledge about him), and the ends of his ruses need not be seen if he gets destroyed as a part of them. For me, no problem at all. |
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CGAdam
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Post by CGAdam on Feb 19, 2018 18:19:10 GMT
What's a god to nonbeliever?!
or
Where's your god now?! OH RIGHT I ATE HIM.
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Post by zimmyzims on Feb 19, 2018 18:30:30 GMT
Huh. After all the pages we've had about how Ysengrin is treated like crap by Coyote, honestly, if Coyote didn't see this coming, someone should revoke his God Card. Like all gods of legend, Coyote is not without faults. He is powerful and magical, but he thinks like a human. Like a human with a very high opinion of himself. He has been manipulating Ysengrin, and because he is awesome, he is sure those manipulations are successful. How could they not when he is the most clever being on the planet? How could Ysengrin turn against him when he loves him so much? Now I don't think Ysengrin is going to eat Coyote. He is just showing his dominance. To Ysengrin strength is power, and now he, not Coyote, is the most powerful being in the forest. He's taking charge! He's the new king of the forest. And he is in a position to make demands. Coyote cannot try to escape Ysengrin, because to do so would show that Ysengrin is not strong despite this gift. A show of magic is not an option here. But if he can get past Ysengrin's initial rage, he may yet get his way with guile and trickery, which is Coyote's real strength. When you put it that way, which is reasonable, I can't see Coyote not expecting exactly this to happen. |
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Post by Mitth'raw'nuruodo on Feb 19, 2018 18:50:14 GMT
Coyote has faked his own identity before, so well in fact he forgot who he was. I don't think there is anyway for Ysengrin to kill off Coyote at this point, even assuming that his strength, tooth, etc. aren't mantles but are just portions of his being that he make fully independent. If they are mantles, most especially to Ysengrin and Reynard, I would start to cast a suspicious eye on both of them. Reynard especially has undergone quite a dramatic personality shift since the start and before the comic. Could this be that the original Reynard, the one that killed the boy, is the true Reynard and that his mantle is shaping him?
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Post by saardvark on Feb 19, 2018 18:52:02 GMT
Eh, if Ys wanted to chomp, he'd chomp already. These doggies here are testing the existing hierarchy, is all. To expand on the "establishing dominance" idea: this could explain why Coyote has been asking Ys the same questions over and over, and then pruning the memories thereof. (1) He lets Ys "establish dominance" (2) Ys demands memories back (3) Coyote (who set this all up) says OK (you asked for it...)...... (4) and Ys is flooded with his own near-endlessly repeated memories and replies - "want your strength", "hate humans", "want your strength", "hate humans"... (5) and goes utterly bonkers, with his own replies ringing endlessly in his brain. We now have super-power-charged, crazed, human-hating Ys ready to take on the Court. Possibly, Coyote wants to send him to take out the Omega device, which, since it controls the ether itself, is an existential threat to Coyote, a being of ether. And Coyote can deny everything, since Ys was "out of his control" due to having given his strength away. Destroy Omega, yet not be responsible for the Court attack and breaking his word ...QED! |
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yla
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Post by yla on Feb 19, 2018 18:53:29 GMT
In retrospect, I expected this.
By which I mean, I didn't expect it at all, but it makes perfect sense.
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Post by gpvos on Feb 19, 2018 20:32:16 GMT
To expand on the "establishing dominance" idea: this could explain why Coyote has been asking Ys the same questions over and over, and then pruning the memories thereof. (1) He lets Ys "establish dominance" (2) Ys demands memories back (3) Coyote (who set this all up) says OK (you asked for it...)...... (4) and Ys is flooded with his own near-endlessly repeated memories and replies - "want your strength", "hate humans", "want your strength", "hate humans"... (5) and goes utterly bonkers, with his own replies ringing endlessly in his brain. We now have super-power-charged, crazed, human-hating Ys ready to take on the Court. Possibly, Coyote wants to send him to take out the Omega device, which, since it controls the ether itself, is an existential threat to Coyote, a being of ether. And Coyote can deny everything, since Ys was "out of his control" due to having given his strength away. Destroy Omega, yet not be responsible for the Court attack and breaking his word ...QED! This is indeed a very likely course of events. |
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Post by artemis on Feb 19, 2018 21:21:42 GMT
But really, I assumed he didn't lose the powers he was giving away (I'm not convinced he hasn't always had the brown chest and legs; all of the images of him that are definitely pre-gifts are very stylized), but this seems to imply that he does. At least to a degree. Word of Tom says Coyote does lose his powers. |
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Post by Tobu Ishi on Feb 19, 2018 21:46:39 GMT
I feel like it's worth pointing out that "the Trickster gets too smug, screws something up big-time and gets trashed/humiliated, and has to spend a while coming back from it" is a pretty universal trope in trickster myth cycles. It's one of the few classic coyote plots Tom hasn't really done yet.
I wouldn't be a bit surprised if it turns out Coyote didn't see this coming, and is genuinely and badly injured. (He's unlikely to be all-dead, though.)
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Post by torontoregonian on Feb 19, 2018 22:15:11 GMT
Welp, looks like Coyote's gone and gotten himself goose-wifed. gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1838Hahaha the first words out of my mouth when I saw this page was OH SHIIIII |
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Post by Runningflame on Feb 20, 2018 0:08:18 GMT
If they are mantles, most especially to Ysengrin and Reynard, I would start to cast a suspicious eye on both of them. Reynard especially has undergone quite a dramatic personality shift since the start and before the comic. Could this be that the original Reynard, the one that killed the boy, is the true Reynard and that his mantle is shaping him? I was thinking the opposite, actually. The thing that puzzles me most in these past few pages is Ysengrin's "dramatic personality shift" (triggered by receiving this power from Coyote?)--going from controlled, calm, and rational to raving, wordless, and attacking. Maybe Renard's willingness to steal people's bodies, not caring that it would kill them, was actually not "the real Renard" but rather a result of his having received a "mantle" from Coyote? |
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Post by todd on Feb 20, 2018 0:24:57 GMT
I feel like it's worth pointing out that "the Trickster gets too smug, screws something up big-time and gets trashed/humiliated, and has to spend a while coming back from it" is a pretty universal trope in trickster myth cycles. It's one of the few classic coyote plots Tom hasn't really done yet. I thought something similar; I've read that in some Coyote legends (the actual legends), Coyote's schemes tend to backfire on him. So this could be that concept appearing in "Gunnerkrigg Court". As to whether this is the actual end of Coyote - I don't know. Tom's written out two recurring characters already, Mort and Jeanne, both of whom were introduced into the webcomic even before Coyote. Could he be writing out a third? But he might also want to keep Coyote around longer. The next few pages will probably tell. |
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Post by darlos9d on Feb 20, 2018 1:35:06 GMT
I feel like it's worth pointing out that "the Trickster gets too smug, screws something up big-time and gets trashed/humiliated, and has to spend a while coming back from it" is a pretty universal trope in trickster myth cycles. It's one of the few classic coyote plots Tom hasn't really done yet. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if it turns out Coyote didn't see this coming, and is genuinely and badly injured. (He's unlikely to be all-dead, though.) Hm... yeah, then Coyote could wind up being sort of a "normal" character from that point forward. Suddenly he's playing on (most) everyone else's level with no especially crazy powers to fall back on anymore. Imagine him just kinda hanging out with the other characters at the court or something. |
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Post by mturtle7 on Feb 20, 2018 1:41:00 GMT
In retrospect, I expected this. By which I mean, I didn't expect it at all, but it makes perfect sense. ^ This is me every single time there's a "big reveal" page in GC. |
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Post by jda on Feb 20, 2018 3:35:44 GMT
But really, I assumed he didn't lose the powers he was giving away (I'm not convinced he hasn't always had the brown chest and legs; all of the images of him that are definitely pre-gifts are very stylized), but this seems to imply that he does. At least to a degree. Word of Tom says Coyote does lose his powers. Extremely good call. |
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Post by stevecharb on Feb 20, 2018 4:59:39 GMT
How though? There are so many things about Coyote that have yet to be resolved. So many plotlines and potential plotlines that have not yet met their close. Coyote is not only a major player, but also the most interesting and compelling character in the comic - he could maybe even be called its breakout character. If his story ends now, it will certainly be a surprise, but it will also be a massive cop-out and an extremely frustrating turn in an already-frustrating story. The only way I would accept Coyote's "death" is if he is somehow resurrected by the presence of the tooth-knife and/or the vial he gave Parley. That Coyote is "the most interesting and compelling character", as well as that the story is frustrating, are your personal opinions that I do not half-share. I don't find the story frustrating. It has been a little bit linear and mellow recently, but now here are again some unexpected and drastic turns to spice things up. As to Coyote, he is just the most powerful character, and that power removed from the world of the story could make things more interesting, particularly if a significant part of it falls to the hands of completely different character who has a penchant for aggression. Other storylines, including those in which Coyote's been involved, continue and get different courses if he's not there. Mysteries of Coyote that are important for the rest of the story can be found out without him being present (he's been there for a while, he isn't the only one in possession of knowledge about him), and the ends of his ruses need not be seen if he gets destroyed as a part of them. For me, no problem at all. I agree with faiiry, this would be an anticlimactic and unsatisfying permanent end to Coyote. There are too many mysteries left to solve, and I think Coyote's mysteries are best exposed by Coyote himself, in his own voice, while his ethereal self transcends the panels. Telling coyote stories without the (unique, gorgeous) "Coyote Stories" style would be a bit of a shame and an unnecessary restriction on the comic going forward. And a loss of one of my (and probably many others') favorite parts of Gunnerkrigg Court.
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Post by stevecharb on Feb 20, 2018 5:02:23 GMT
So, what will the drawback be to having this strength? Loss of sanity?
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Feb 20, 2018 6:23:47 GMT
So, what will the drawback be to having this strength? Loss of sanity? I'm still waiting to see what "power" means. Assuming it's only Coyote's ability to wreck stuff like a force of nature, the obvious place to put a flaw would be in the control department. He didn't even test the strength before he went after Coyote; that's not particularly smart when dealing with a trickster so possibly the previous page showed an ecstatic state resulting from the transfer of power. Maybe Ys will get grimdrunk whenever he uses it and wreck stuff he'd rather not wreck, maybe the power itself will go out of control, or possibly (like you said) it will erode his sanity. Right now I'm thinking the grimdrunk-followed-by-remorse-hangover is the most likely outcome. But if "power" means more than Ysengrin-smash, or if Ys gains more power(s) by killing/eating Coyote, then guessing the limits and the flaw(s) would be complicated... in that case I'd guess there'd be at least one weakness/kryptonite whatever in the mix. It's probably worth mentioning that the reason Ysengrin gets what he wanted now is because the result would have been predictable before. Or better to say, Coyote is/was reasonably sure the results of doing it now will be unpredictable. Ys is of divided mind about (some) humans and the sentinel at the Annan is gone. I don't think that Eggs, Parsmit, the Donlans, and the robots can stop him. What can still stop him from going on a rampage is any surprises the Court has in reserve and Ys' own inner turmoil (if any). That leaves Antimony (as protagonist and/or audience) who may have trouble using her fire to hurt Ys. Let's see if Ys attacks everyone and charges across the river or if he issues an ultimatum first. I'll guess "ultimatum." |
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Post by Runningflame on Feb 20, 2018 6:33:16 GMT
Very important question that we probably won't see the answer to: What do Coyote and Ysengrin look like in the ether right now? Because if Coyote still looks like his usual panel-overflowing self, I wouldn't be too worried about him. On the other hand, if he's diminished and Ysengrin has grown... Prior speculation concerned whether Coyote's tooth was a Chekhov's Gun pointed at Jones. Now I'm wondering whether it's a Chekhov's Gun pointed at super-Ysengrin. (And also wondering what a super-Ysengrin vs Jones battle would look like...) Also: does panel 1 imply that Coyote thought of himself as "looking after" Ysengrin up to this point? Is that how he understands all those memory-ectomies? |
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Post by Zox Tomana on Feb 20, 2018 7:57:35 GMT
(And also wondering what a super-Ysengrin vs Jones battle would look like...) If Jones is a living immovable object, and Coyote's Strength is equivalent to a living unstoppable force... |
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gergle
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Post by gergle on Feb 20, 2018 9:35:47 GMT
(And also wondering what a super-Ysengrin vs Jones battle would look like...) If Jones is a living immovable object, and Coyote's Strength is equivalent to a living unstoppable force... I think Jones is very capable of handling Coyote. She says she is on pg 816. |
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Post by pyradonis on Feb 20, 2018 10:59:23 GMT
If Jones is a living immovable object, and Coyote's Strength is equivalent to a living unstoppable force... I think Jones is very capable of handling Coyote. She says she is on pg 816. The author says otherwise (formsprung): "Q: Who would win in a fight between Coyote and Jones? A: Coyote" Jones' body might be invulnerable to every force humans can measure, but gods play in another league. |
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Post by pyradonis on Feb 20, 2018 11:01:34 GMT
Huh. After all the pages we've had about how Ysengrin is treated like crap by Coyote, honestly, if Coyote didn't see this coming, someone should revoke his God Card. Greek mythology (for example) has lots of gods who didn't see bad things coming to them. Ask Uranos or Kronos.  |
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Post by csj on Feb 20, 2018 12:25:36 GMT
His strength is literally his anger. (I knew I'd find this page eventually heh) |
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Post by philman on Feb 20, 2018 13:15:26 GMT
I think Jones is very capable of handling Coyote. She says she is on pg 816. The author says otherwise (formsprung): "Q: Who would win in a fight between Coyote and Jones? A: Coyote" Jones' body might be invulnerable to every force humans can measure, but gods play in another league. You can be invulnerable and immortal but still get trapped somewhere you cannot leave for eternity by a whimsical god. |
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Post by philman on Feb 20, 2018 13:56:21 GMT
That Coyote is "the most interesting and compelling character", as well as that the story is frustrating, are your personal opinions that I do not half-share. I don't find the story frustrating. It has been a little bit linear and mellow recently, but now here are again some unexpected and drastic turns to spice things up. As to Coyote, he is just the most powerful character, and that power removed from the world of the story could make things more interesting, particularly if a significant part of it falls to the hands of completely different character who has a penchant for aggression. Other storylines, including those in which Coyote's been involved, continue and get different courses if he's not there. Mysteries of Coyote that are important for the rest of the story can be found out without him being present (he's been there for a while, he isn't the only one in possession of knowledge about him), and the ends of his ruses need not be seen if he gets destroyed as a part of them. For me, no problem at all. I agree with faiiry, this would be an anticlimactic and unsatisfying permanent end to Coyote. There are too many mysteries left to solve, and I think Coyote's mysteries are best exposed by Coyote himself, in his own voice, while his ethereal self transcends the panels. Telling coyote stories without the (unique, gorgeous) "Coyote Stories" style would be a bit of a shame and an unnecessary restriction on the comic going forward. And a loss of one of my (and probably many others') favorite parts of Gunnerkrigg Court. I think it would be fascinating if Coyote is truly dead. What does that sudden power vacuum mean for the forest and the court? With Ysengrin in charge, probably war. Did Coyote intend for this to happen and have a part of himself hidden away? Is his Strength he gave to Ysengrin a part of him that lives on? Is Annie still safe as the Forest medium? |
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Post by jda on Feb 20, 2018 15:17:12 GMT
The author says otherwise (formsprung): "Q: Who would win in a fight between Coyote and Jones? A: Coyote" Jones' body might be invulnerable to every force humans can measure, but gods play in another league. You can be invulnerable and immortal but still get trapped somewhere you cannot leave for eternity by a whimsical god. With inconmensurable strength, you could be sent to space, with maybe centuries before you land in another planet/surface from where to vault, even if you knew your astrophysics at perfection. And maybe millenia untill you return, example given. |
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clover
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Post by clover on Feb 20, 2018 17:16:08 GMT
My favorite part about this is that the comic has clearly, clearly telegraphed the mechanisms explaining what is going to happen here and the nature of what coyote does and why he winks.
And still none of us really know what's going to happen.
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Post by fia on Feb 20, 2018 17:56:07 GMT
I dunno, even though I said myself I found Coyote's actions weird if he was aiming to harm the Court, I wasn't expecting that he'd come off looking semi-benevolent and sort of naïve as he has in these last few pages. I am pretty surprised. But I'm inclined to trust Tom, whatever happens. His writing has always been good before, it's kept me hooked for years. Also he may have foreshadowed this reaction back in the 800's (it's just been super covered up by all the intermittent elegizing of Coyote by Y):  |
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