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Post by maxptc on Nov 23, 2017 7:37:19 GMT
Anyone else getting pretty goddamn tired of tippy-toeing around the fact that Tony acts like his daughter is contact poison? Everyone around him should be telling him that if he can't deal with the fact that Annie exists and is his responsibility, maybe he should put in for a brief vacation in a mental ward and a prescription for something to help him cope. "But that's Tony and he's just always been like that" is evidence of a shocking level of neglect by his friends and colleagues. I dunno if that's the best approach, and I think Kat and her family are more worried about Annie's feelings and potential future relationship with her father. Doing that, while satisfying, doesn't seem like an effective tactic if your motive is helping support a postive future between Annie and Tony. Tony is a jerk and emotionally stunted, but harping on it seems pointless, and has proven ineffective; Tony will just storm off. On the other hand trying to engage him more netural seems likely to work, even if it is unfair since he deserves to get told off. I get the reasons to hate the guy. Not a fan of his reasoning and the short term insanity/long term mental illness caused by Surma death/bad genes that he still suffers from concerns me. But I still see the good ending as Tony and Annie having a good father/daughter relationship. Him getting lynched or committed would kinda ruin Annie. I bet most of the cast is as tired of tip toeing about Tony as you are, but good people can be civil with jerks if they think being rude will cause damage. And Tony seems the kind of unstable where he could cause some serious damage. Why push the mad scientist closer to becoming a literal super villain? |
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Post by speedwell on Nov 23, 2017 12:11:03 GMT
Anyone else getting pretty goddamn tired of tippy-toeing around the fact that Tony acts like his daughter is contact poison? Everyone around him should be telling him that if he can't deal with the fact that Annie exists and is his responsibility, maybe he should put in for a brief vacation in a mental ward and a prescription for something to help him cope. "But that's Tony and he's just always been like that" is evidence of a shocking level of neglect by his friends and colleagues. I dunno if that's the best approach, and I think Kat and her family are more worried about Annie's feelings and potential future relationship with her father. Doing that, while satisfying, doesn't seem like an effective tactic if your motive is helping support a postive future between Annie and Tony. Tony is a jerk and emotionally stunted, but harping on it seems pointless, and has proven ineffective; Tony will just storm off. On the other hand trying to engage him more netural seems likely to work, even if it is unfair since he deserves to get told off. I get the reasons to hate the guy. Not a fan of his reasoning and the short term insanity/long term mental illness caused by Surma death/bad genes that he still suffers from concerns me. But I still see the good ending as Tony and Annie having a good father/daughter relationship. Him getting lynched or committed would kinda ruin Annie. I bet most of the cast is as tired of tip toeing about Tony as you are, but good people can be civil with jerks if they think being rude will cause damage. And Tony seems the kind of unstable where he could cause some serious damage. Why push the mad scientist closer to becoming a literal super villain? It's just that it's all about him and his feelings. He doesn't even seem to get that she has feelings to respect, even if he recognises that he isn't good at doing it himself. He reminds me of nothing so much as the 60-year-old husband of one of my older friends, who stopped showing his wife any affection, verbal or physical, and responded to her suggestion that they go out and do something together with "I don't really want to; if that's what you want to do, go on and do it yourself". She asked him what was wrong, and he said, "Nothing's wrong, I'm OK, stop stressing out". A decent person would recognise that the people close to and dependent on him have needs, even if he recognises he himself is incapable of meeting them. |
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Post by maxptc on Nov 23, 2017 18:04:24 GMT
I dunno if that's the best approach, and I think Kat and her family are more worried about Annie's feelings and potential future relationship with her father. Doing that, while satisfying, doesn't seem like an effective tactic if your motive is helping support a postive future between Annie and Tony. Tony is a jerk and emotionally stunted, but harping on it seems pointless, and has proven ineffective; Tony will just storm off. On the other hand trying to engage him more netural seems likely to work, even if it is unfair since he deserves to get told off. I get the reasons to hate the guy. Not a fan of his reasoning and the short term insanity/long term mental illness caused by Surma death/bad genes that he still suffers from concerns me. But I still see the good ending as Tony and Annie having a good father/daughter relationship. Him getting lynched or committed would kinda ruin Annie. I bet most of the cast is as tired of tip toeing about Tony as you are, but good people can be civil with jerks if they think being rude will cause damage. And Tony seems the kind of unstable where he could cause some serious damage. Why push the mad scientist closer to becoming a literal super villain? It's just that it's all about him and his feelings. He doesn't even seem to get that she has feelings to respect, even if he recognises that he isn't good at doing it himself. He reminds me of nothing so much as the 60-year-old husband of one of my older friends, who stopped showing his wife any affection, verbal or physical, and responded to her suggestion that they go out and do something together with "I don't really want to; if that's what you want to do, go on and do it yourself". She asked him what was wrong, and he said, "Nothing's wrong, I'm OK, stop stressing out". A decent person would recognise that the people close to and dependent on him have needs, even if he recognises he himself is incapable of meeting them. I don't get that vibe from Tony or think decent people have to be socially aware in a certain way or they aren't decent, but that's fair enough. What type of a person Tony is or isnt is not really a topic that needs more discussion imo, and even if it is I'm still pretty done on that. I just don't think the characters focusing on what type of a jerk Tony is does anyone any good. I don't agree that it's all about Tony's feelings, and I don't feel like Tony or anyone else has acted that way, but even if it is and if they have, it isn't for his sole benefit. It also about Annie and what they want for her future. They aren't prioritizing telling him off, and why should they? Aside from him having it coming, I see no good that can come from it, it could strain things worse. And I think Tony has been attempting to be a good father since his return, he just isn't doing a good job. I think everyone else is just trying to help him do a better job, in whatever small way they can. In summary, even if what you said about Tony is spot on, what should the cast do to get to a happy conclusion? How do they interact with whatever Tony is in a way that gets him to be a better father? "Hey Jerkface, you've been a jerk. Fix it or get committed or hit with this stick I found!" I mean sure, it could work, I just think a more diplomatic approach will yield better results. |
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Post by snowflake on Nov 23, 2017 19:23:33 GMT
Doing that, while satisfying, doesn't seem like an effective tactic if your motive is helping support a postive future between Annie and Tony. I think the point speedwell was trying to make is that the motive should not be "helping support a postive future between Annie and Tony", but rather "helping to support a positive future for Annie". The difference between these two goals is in how much of Tony's issues you'd be willing to accommodate to Annie's immediate detriment before you ask him to withdraw from her life. |
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Post by maxptc on Nov 23, 2017 20:19:03 GMT
Doing that, while satisfying, doesn't seem like an effective tactic if your motive is helping support a postive future between Annie and Tony. I think the point speedwell was trying to make is that the motive should not be "helping support a postive future between Annie and Tony", but rather "helping to support a positive future for Annie". The difference between these two goals is in how much of Tony's issues you'd be willing to accommodate to Annie's immediate detriment before you ask him to withdraw from her life. But what would asking him to withdraw accomplish is my point. Tony is her legal guardian, they have very limited influence over him or his position, and even if they could make an impact Annie not having a father is the badest end. Tony is trying to be a good father now, he just hasnt been because his goals didn't involve fatherhood before and it isn't something that comes easily for him. He seems to want what's best for Annie, he is just selfish and emotionally ill suited to deal with a teenage daughter. If a character is only concerned with Annies well being, they still have to by extension "care" about Tonys well being, since doing otherwise hurts Annie as well. I get the anger at Tony, I just fail to see how showcasing it will benefit anyone in the comic. Even if you can somehow convince Tony he is a bad person and needs to leave, Annie just no longer has a father around. And how that even happens at all, moreso without causing more damage to Annie, is to abstract for me to imagine. I feel Tony isn't just going to leave or change because he gets told off. Trying to work with Tony on the other hand seems like an actual plan that could help build a positive relationship between Annie and her Dad. |
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yinglung
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Post by yinglung on Nov 23, 2017 20:48:51 GMT
Anyone else getting pretty goddamn tired of tippy-toeing around the fact that Tony acts like his daughter is contact poison? Everyone around him should be telling him that if he can't deal with the fact that Annie exists and is his responsibility, maybe he should put in for a brief vacation in a mental ward and a prescription for something to help him cope. "But that's Tony and he's just always been like that" is evidence of a shocking level of neglect by his friends and colleagues. It's not that he cannot deal with Annie's existence and the fact that he is ought to take care of her like a real parent. He has substantial guilt regarding her, to the point where he believes he doesn't deserve to call himself her father, and believes that she hates him. Something that can be ameliorated if they have an open conversation about how they feel about each other. Neither of them really have the disposition or the emotional bravery to make that first step, but that is why Kat is acting as a mediator here. Luckily, Kat has already mediated with Annie and a pseudo-father-figure, so things should go well. As for why it's Kat and not the Donny and Anja, Kat has the best relationship with both parties. If her parents were to try to mediate, it would be a situation of mostly adults and one teen, which is an unfortunately authoritarian context. Kat, on the other hand, is a friend and peer to Annie, and has a friendly, perhaps colleague-like relationship with Tony. Pretty much the best person to bridge the gap. ... I want Tony to say "on the other hand" as part of a lame joke. EDIT: Regarding Tony leaving: He cannot. The court is more or less blackmailing him to work on their omega project by holding Annie's education hostage. They are also specifically using him to keep Annie from doing things they don't want her to do. |
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Post by aline on Nov 23, 2017 21:08:56 GMT
It's just that it's all about him and his feelings. He doesn't even seem to get that she has feelings to respect, even if he recognises that he isn't good at doing it himself. He reminds me of nothing so much as the 60-year-old husband of one of my older friends, who stopped showing his wife any affection, verbal or physical, and responded to her suggestion that they go out and do something together with "I don't really want to; if that's what you want to do, go on and do it yourself". She asked him what was wrong, and he said, "Nothing's wrong, I'm OK, stop stressing out". A decent person would recognise that the people close to and dependent on him have needs, even if he recognises he himself is incapable of meeting them. I don't get that vibe from Tony or think decent people have to be socially aware in a certain way or they aren't decent, but that's fair enough. What type of a person Tony is or isnt is not really a topic that needs more discussion imo, and even if it is I'm still pretty done on that. Tony is not someone who has much social awareness, but he's fully aware that he hurt Annie. He knows what he did well enough to regret it. He just never acted on this regret. I'm also quite done about the discussion about what, how and why Tony did wrong, I totally get you there. I do hope we'll get to see him take some sort of responsibility, and act on his feelings of regret in a positive way (through an attempt to fix things. Preferably fix things for his daughter, rather than for himself). |
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Post by aline on Nov 23, 2017 21:27:07 GMT
Anyone else getting pretty goddamn tired of tippy-toeing around the fact that Tony acts like his daughter is contact poison? Everyone around him should be telling him that if he can't deal with the fact that Annie exists and is his responsibility, maybe he should put in for a brief vacation in a mental ward and a prescription for something to help him cope. "But that's Tony and he's just always been like that" is evidence of a shocking level of neglect by his friends and colleagues. It's not that he cannot deal with Annie's existence and the fact that he is ought to take care of her like a real parent. He has substantial guilt regarding her, to the point where he believes he doesn't deserve [...] We all know that and it's irrelevant to what speedwell is saying. This is NOT about how Tony feels, but about how he acts. In real life, what matters, what makes you a decent person or not, is what you do. The way Tony is currently acting towards his daughter is not acceptable. Regardless of his reasons, his feelings, his trauma, his social awkwardness, his broken heart, blablabla... it is just not acceptable. And yet everybody seems to accept it (or to quietly disapprove without doing anything about it, which is pretty much the same). Nobody is shown challenging that in any serious way. It's not even about blaming about the past, it's about changing things for the future. Donny tried to find out what happened to Tony but made no effort to make him act differently towards Annie, for example. As his best friend who understands him so well, he would be in a prime position to talk about this with Tony privately, and help him make steps in the right direction. And yet his fourteen year old daughter is the one dealing with this crap. Why. (<- this is a rhetorical question. I know there are storytelling reasons for this, but I feel annoyed by the resulting storyline nonetheless). |
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Post by maxptc on Nov 23, 2017 21:36:33 GMT
I don't get that vibe from Tony or think decent people have to be socially aware in a certain way or they aren't decent, but that's fair enough. What type of a person Tony is or isnt is not really a topic that needs more discussion imo, and even if it is I'm still pretty done on that. Tony is not someone who has much social awareness, but he's fully aware that he hurt Annie. He knows what he did well enough to regret it. He just never acted on this regret. I'm also quite done about the discussion about what, how and why Tony did wrong, I totally get you there. I do hope we'll get to see him take some sort of responsibility, and act on his feelings of regret in a positive way (through an attempt to fix things. Preferably fix things for his daughter, rather than for himself). Agreed, and it seems like its either Tony accepts responsibility, atones and becomes a better father, or nothing changes. Glad Kat is facilitating this. Tony isn't going anywhere, violence has it's own complications and the situation isn't going to get easier for anyone by waiting. |
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yinglung
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Post by yinglung on Nov 23, 2017 22:10:10 GMT
It's not that he cannot deal with Annie's existence and the fact that he is ought to take care of her like a real parent. He has substantial guilt regarding her, to the point where he believes he doesn't deserve [...] We all know that and it's irrelevant to what speedwell is saying. This is NOT about how Tony feels, but about how he acts. In real life, what matters, what makes you a decent person or not, is what you do. The way Tony is currently acting towards his daughter is not acceptable. Regardless of his reasons, his feelings, his trauma, his social awkwardness, his broken heart, blablabla... it is just not acceptable. And yet everybody seems to accept it (or to quietly disapprove without doing anything about it, which is pretty much the same). Nobody is shown challenging that in any serious way. It's not even about blaming about the past, it's about changing things for the future. Donny tried to find out what happened to Tony but made no effort to make him act differently towards Annie, for example. As his best friend who understands him so well, he would be in a prime position to talk about this with Tony privately, and help him make steps in the right direction. And yet his fourteen year old daughter is the one dealing with this crap. Why. (<- this is a rhetorical question. I know there are storytelling reasons for this, but I feel annoyed by the resulting storyline nonetheless). I think it was the phrasing of "contact poison" and "if he can't deal with the fact that Annie exists" which made me (mistakenly) think speedwell was misunderstanding what the root of the conflict was. As for why no one has been shown to seriously challenge Tony's behavior, direct confrontation is not something Donny or Anja would do in this emotionally charged situation. They seem to prefer to offer advice, listen to people explain themselves, and help both parties understand the other. These are people who genuinely like both Tony and Annie, and are trying to do what's best for both of them. I don't agree that Tony removing himself from Annie's life would be the best; the whole problem is that he has been distant. Aside from the one time when he embarrassed her in front of her peers, the only thing he has done is avoid her. If he was abusive or neglectful in other ways, then yes, he ought to remove himself from her life until he can act like a good parent. Thinking back to the original friend group, the only people who would confront Tony would be Surma, who is dead, and Jimmy, who has some serious resentment to Tony, perhaps to the extent of a conflict of interests in this situation. |
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Post by todd on Nov 24, 2017 0:52:05 GMT
As for why no one has been shown to seriously challenge Tony's behavior, direct confrontation is not something Donny or Anja would do in this emotionally charged situation. They seem to prefer to offer advice, listen to people explain themselves, and help both parties understand the other. These are people who genuinely like both Tony and Annie, and are trying to do what's best for both of them. I don't agree that Tony removing himself from Annie's life would be the best; the whole problem is that he has been distant. Aside from the one time when he embarrassed her in front of her peers, the only thing he has done is avoid her. If he was abusive or neglectful in other ways, then yes, he ought to remove himself from her life until he can act like a good parent. Challenging Antony on his treatment of Annie might have an additional problem (though not the chief one); the higher-ups at the Court probably approve of this situation. One big advantage of it for them is that Annie is now so focused on his father's behavior towards her that it's keeping her from doing much else; in fact, it works even better than Antony's strictures on her. What's standing in the way of her snooping around the Court now, having adventures, and potentially creating situations that the "Lords of the Court" consider against their interests is not just a door locked from the outside, but also locked from the inside. Not completely (she's helped release Jeanne since his return), but enough to distract her from the kind of behavior they brought Antony back to check. I certainly don't think the Court's responsible for this coldness; the evidence indicates that it stems from Antony's character flaws and weaknesses, with the Court serving as just "plot device characters" to force him into contact with her. But I also think they'd find it to their advantage, and want to keep it that way. (Though I find it tempting to imagine them wondering, after they got the repair bill for the building Coyote knocked over, whether they should have put more thought into this plan.) Not that it might make that much difference whether the Court approves of the situation or not, since I suspect that these weaknesses of Antony are too deep-rooted to be easily solved by just a few chats from friends. I see the Court as having just supplied the occasion, and that the real work is going to be complicated by Antony's character rather than by any schemings from above. |
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Post by mturtle7 on Nov 24, 2017 4:44:12 GMT
I think Kat should know by now that you can't force Tony out of his shell. My guess is that Kat is setting them up and will leave them alone doing work Tony is comfortable with. Probably hoping this will help Tony open up to Annie like he opened up to Surma in the jungle. Now I am really perplexed about Renard's afternoon appointment. Maybe this chapter will be a series of vignettes that only have Kat in common. Here we have Annie/Tony being set up by Kat. Maybe Robot and Paz will each get their own vignettes with Kat. Renard can act as bookends and close the chapter out. I just realized what a great twist it would beif Kat just set them up with work together, left the room, and then the rest of the chapter is entirely from her perspective, so that we NEVER actually learn what Annie and Tony talked about. I mean, granted, it would drive 90% of the forums crazy with frustration and anger, but that honestly only makes me want it more. I'm a terrible person that way. |
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Post by antiyonder on Nov 24, 2017 5:58:48 GMT
But what would asking him to withdraw accomplish is my point. Tony is her legal guardian, they have very limited influence over him or his position, and even if they could make an impact Annie not having a father is the badest end. Tony is trying to be a good father now, he just hasnt been because his goals didn't involve fatherhood before and it isn't something that comes easily for him. He seems to want what's best for Annie, he is just selfish and emotionally ill suited to deal with a teenage daughter. If a character is only concerned with Annies well being, they still have to by extension "care" about Tonys well being, since doing otherwise hurts Annie as well. I get the anger at Tony, I just fail to see how showcasing it will benefit anyone in the comic. Even if you can somehow convince Tony he is a bad person and needs to leave, Annie just no longer has a father around. And how that even happens at all, moreso without causing more damage to Annie, is to abstract for me to imagine. I feel Tony isn't just going to leave or change because he gets told off. Trying to work with Tony on the other hand seems like an actual plan that could help build a positive relationship between Annie and her Dad. I actually do agree for the most part though to say Tony is trying to be a good father? I do believe he genuinely thinks Annie hates him, but is he keeping a distance because he thinks it's easy for her or easy for him not to admit his guilt directly? Furthermore Annie is arguably the only one putting effort into remedying the distance problem. While her cheating is wrong, she obviously thought he would be proud for the high marks in a field he is interested in. Or take when she walked in on Kat and Tony's interaction. She made an inaccurate assumption, but she actually tried to understand things such as asking Kat why she's so chummy which led to the brainwashing assumption which led to Anja explaining more about Tony's tendency to only expressing himself when with a single person. Had Tony been in her place, he strikes me as someone who would accept that status quo and not try to understand his cold/distant parent getting along with some people but not him. Sure he tried to save Surma from something that leads to all fire elementals dying, but have we seen him trying to overcome his own limitations/problems or just accepting his status quo? Tony and Annie definitely share similar social traits and even believe themselves at fault for Surma's death plus believe that the other hates him/her, but Annie has actually tried to look for ways to improve the condition between them, whereas Tony is content with his belief and not trying to do anything beyond keeping her at a length. Sorry for the rambling, but this is something I wanted to get out for a while, so I'm really looking for imput from anyone. |
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yinglung
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Post by yinglung on Nov 24, 2017 7:25:09 GMT
When it comes to social interactions, especially ones where he has to account for someone else's feelings, he does not initiate the interaction. The more complex the situation, the harder it is for him to know what to do. Thus, he waits for someone to take the lead, and that usually clarifies how he is supposed to act. If his parent became distant after the other died, then Tony would assume that distance is what his parent wants, and give them that. He would still want to be closer to his surviving parent, but crossing that distance correctly would be nigh impossible for Tony.
Speaking as someone who relates a lot to Tony, it is very easy to project my guilt onto others as thinking they resent me. When the guilt is on the level of accidentally killing a loved one, or causing serious injury to a person, it can be very hard to believe that the affected person doesn't hate me. When you have as few social relations as Tony does, the idea of someone genuinely and justifiably hating you is unsettling, depressing, and scary. You don't want to see that. I can't imagine what that would be like seeing that in the face of a family member. It might make things easier on them if they see as little of you as possible, and it will certainly be less painful for you if you see as little of them as possible. On the other hand, receiving forgiveness from that person would seem like a miracle, even if you do not entirely let go of your guilt.
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Post by aline on Nov 24, 2017 8:22:20 GMT
Speaking as someone who relates a lot to Tony, it is very easy to project my guilt onto others as thinking they resent me. When the guilt is on the level of accidentally killing a loved one, or causing serious injury to a person, it can be very hard to believe that the affected person doesn't hate me. When you have as few social relations as Tony does, the idea of someone genuinely and justifiably hating you is unsettling, depressing, and scary. You don't want to see that. I can't imagine what that would be like seeing that in the face of a family member. It might make things easier on them if they see as little of you as possible, and it will certainly be less painful for you if you see as little of them as possible. On the other hand, receiving forgiveness from that person would seem like a miracle, even if you do not entirely let go of your guilt. I know all that, but none of these things absolve you of your responsibilities as a parent. When you're a parent, the needs and feelings of your kid come before your needs and feelings. You have a duty to protect and and care for them even if you think they hate you. Even if they DO hate you. Even if you're convinced they would hate you if they knew the shit you did. Even if it causes you pain. Even if it scares you. Even if it makes you really uncomfortable. Even if you think you don't deserve their love. You can avoid your parents, your friends, your siblings if you want, but avoiding your kid is not an option. They depend on you. They need you in a fundamental way, in a way no one else will ever need you. I think if you had your own kids you'd understand why people like me or speedwell, who I believe also is a parent, have a different stance on this. |
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Post by antiyonder on Nov 24, 2017 8:37:47 GMT
Speaking as someone who relates a lot to Tony, it is very easy to project my guilt onto others as thinking they resent me. When the guilt is on the level of accidentally killing a loved one, or causing serious injury to a person, it can be very hard to believe that the affected person doesn't hate me. When you have as few social relations as Tony does, the idea of someone genuinely and justifiably hating you is unsettling, depressing, and scary. You don't want to see that. I can't imagine what that would be like seeing that in the face of a family member. It might make things easier on them if they see as little of you as possible, and it will certainly be less painful for you if you see as little of them as possible. On the other hand, receiving forgiveness from that person would seem like a miracle, even if you do not entirely let go of your guilt. I know all that, but none of these things absolve you of your responsibilities as a parent. When you're a parent, the needs and feelings of your kid come before your needs and feelings. You have a duty to protect and and care for them even if you think they hate you. Even if they DO hate you. Even if you're convinced they would hate you if they knew the shit you did. Even if it causes you pain. Even if it scares you. Even if it makes you really uncomfortable. Even if you think you don't deserve their love. You can avoid your parents, your friends, your siblings if you want, but avoiding your kid is not an option. They depend on you. They need you in a fundamental way, in a way no one else will ever need you. I think if you had your own kids you'd understand why people like me or speedwell, who I believe also is a parent, have a different stance on this. In my case I'm childless, but I've been around family members who've had some problems and even helped in taking care or watching my nieces and nephews. Even then, has there been any document cases where it's been proved that some parents raised their kid without any difficulty? Case it seems like it basically is a universal fact that parents from all walks of life (even the ones who succeeded in the end) will face a challenge after challenge. And to my understanding it seems like the ones who fail without much success go into parenthood denying that fact and don't even try. And yes especially on the underlined part. Other people who might live under the same roof like a roommate or more significantly a spouse have the option and choice to get involved with and putting trust in you to pull your weight. One's children on the other hand don't have that choice, thus you have to be the one to make the accommodations. |
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yinglung
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Post by yinglung on Nov 24, 2017 14:08:13 GMT
Speaking as someone who relates a lot to Tony, it is very easy to project my guilt onto others as thinking they resent me. When the guilt is on the level of accidentally killing a loved one, or causing serious injury to a person, it can be very hard to believe that the affected person doesn't hate me. When you have as few social relations as Tony does, the idea of someone genuinely and justifiably hating you is unsettling, depressing, and scary. You don't want to see that. I can't imagine what that would be like seeing that in the face of a family member. It might make things easier on them if they see as little of you as possible, and it will certainly be less painful for you if you see as little of them as possible. On the other hand, receiving forgiveness from that person would seem like a miracle, even if you do not entirely let go of your guilt. I know all that, but none of these things absolve you of your responsibilities as a parent. When you're a parent, the needs and feelings of your kid come before your needs and feelings. You have a duty to protect and and care for them even if you think they hate you. Even if they DO hate you. Even if you're convinced they would hate you if they knew the shit you did. Even if it causes you pain. Even if it scares you. Even if it makes you really uncomfortable. Even if you think you don't deserve their love. You can avoid your parents, your friends, your siblings if you want, but avoiding your kid is not an option. They depend on you. They need you in a fundamental way, in a way no one else will ever need you. I think if you had your own kids you'd understand why people like me or speedwell, who I believe also is a parent, have a different stance on this. I'm not trying to absolve Tony of his responsibilities as a parent. I was merely explaining why he would think avoiding Annie would be what he thinks she would want, and the underlying motive as to why he doesn't look beyond this "solution". As for duty, we have seen Tony try to protect her from the danger of the forest, and when Coyote helped him realize what effect Tony was having on her, Tony accepted that he was wrong, and changed how he was treating her. Obviously he has to change even more, but he isn't ignoring his parental responsibilities, insofar as he understands them. As to why he doesn't have a good grasp as to what a parent should do, it may be that his parents were truly dysfunctional in some way. We did seem him dodge the question about what his parents were like, last chapter. |
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Post by antiyonder on Nov 24, 2017 14:27:20 GMT
As for duty, we have seen Tony try to protect her from the danger of the forest, and 1. When was this again? 2. Yeah Tony is the text book case of one who overrates physical harm/danger as the worst thing that can happen to a person. I think the feeling of a parent not loving you or other emotional issues can be just as dangerous. I thought he only returned Reynard because Coyote scared him into doing so. True, and Annie also picked up some of his traits in terms of dealing with people, yet has been doing better socially (being able to function around more than one person and possibly pony) as time went on despite not being close to adulthood. |
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yinglung
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Post by yinglung on Nov 24, 2017 14:53:26 GMT
As for duty, we have seen Tony try to protect her from the danger of the forest, and 1. When was this again? I mean, we know Coyote is dangerous, on multiple levels including memory erasure. But yes, Tony did underestimate his emotional impact, and did not see the damage he was doing. A war going on inside his head and he allowed her to visit the forest again.Though I'm not seeing the part where Coyote said anything about Reynard. If anything, returning him without a fuss might be Tony trusting Annie's judgement more in etheric matters. Is it really fair to say that Annie is enough like Tony that anything she can do, he can do as well, if he only tried? Besides, she has had a whole host of semi-parental figures in the court, multiple friends that she can express herself around, a fire elemental that amplifies emotion, and perhaps some traits from Surma as well. Tony had...Donny. And eventually Surma. |
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Post by aline on Nov 24, 2017 15:09:52 GMT
Obviously he has to change even more, but he isn't ignoring his parental responsibilities, insofar as he understands them. Yes he is. Sentences like "How could I do that to my own daughter" tell us that Tony is not ignorant of the harm he causes. He is acting the way he does not because he doesn't know how a father should act, but because he decided that he was no longer Annie's father. ("I didn't deserve to see her again. Her father died out there in those caves" "How could she live with the man who murdered her mother" etc.). Remember what he said to Surma after she kissed him: "But when we go back, I'll be how I was before." He is quite aware of other people's emotional needs, and how he fails to meet them. He's not ignorant of what Annie needs and how he hurts her. It doesn't mean he wants her harmed, but rather he accepts the damage he causes as some sort of fatality and does nothing to change it. He is entirely too focused on himself, HIS pain, HIS guilt, HIS fault, what HE deserves, what HE wants. It's not that he doesn't understand his job as a father. He refuses his job as a father. He gave up on Annie. He treats his daughter like collateral damage to his own tragic story, rather than like an actual person. |
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yinglung
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Post by yinglung on Nov 24, 2017 15:19:48 GMT
Obviously he has to change even more, but he isn't ignoring his parental responsibilities, insofar as he understands them. Yes he is. Sentences like "How could I do that to my own daughter" tell us that Tony is not ignorant of the harm he causes. He is acting the way he does not because he doesn't know how a father should act, but because he decided that he was no longer Annie's father. ("I didn't deserve to see her again. Her father died out there in those caves" "How could she live with the man who murdered her mother" etc.). Remember what he said to Surma after she kissed him: "But when we go back, I'll be how I was before." He is quite aware of other people's emotional needs, and how he fails to meet them. He's not ignorant of what Annie needs and how he hurts her. It doesn't mean he wants her harmed, but rather he accepts the damage he causes as some sort of fatality and does nothing to change it. He is entirely too focused on himself, HIS pain, HIS guilt, HIS fault, what HE deserves, what HE wants. It's not that he doesn't understand his job as a father. He refuses his job as a father. He gave up on Annie. He treats his daughter like collateral damage to his own tragic story, rather than like an actual person. Considering our choices of avatar pictures, I think we will have to agree to disagree. |
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Post by antiyonder on Nov 24, 2017 15:23:21 GMT
Is it really fair to say that Annie is enough like Tony that anything she can do, he can do as well, if he only tried? Besides, she has had a whole host of semi-parental figures in the court, multiple friends that she can express herself around, a fire elemental that amplifies emotion, and perhaps some traits from Surma as well. Tony had...Donny. And eventually Surma. To some degree, yeah I think it's fair to expect one to excel at something that a person with less advantages succeeded in. And her many friends didn't just fall into her lap did they? She had to make the attempt to make friends. Having trait from Surma, and a fire elemental I'm sure also makes it easy, but one could argue that it's what you do with your skills and resources that define you rather than merely having said skills and resources. He is entirely too focused on himself, HIS pain, HIS guilt, HIS fault, what HE deserves, what HE wants. It's not that he doesn't understand his job as a father. He refuses his job as a father. He gave up on Annie. He treats his daughter like collateral damage to his own tragic story, rather than like an actual person. Yeah it's the kind of thing that might seem like selflessness at a glance but is another degree of selfishness. He's basically putting his fear and other feelings before duty. |
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yinglung
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It's only a tatter of mime.
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Post by yinglung on Nov 24, 2017 15:54:26 GMT
Is it really fair to say that Annie is enough like Tony that anything she can do, he can do as well, if he only tried? Besides, she has had a whole host of semi-parental figures in the court, multiple friends that she can express herself around, a fire elemental that amplifies emotion, and perhaps some traits from Surma as well. Tony had...Donny. And eventually Surma. To some degree, yeah I think it's fair to expect one to excel at something that a person with less advantages succeeded in. And her many friends didn't just fall into her lap did they? She had to make the attempt to make friends. Having trait from Surma, and a fire elemental I'm sure also makes it easy, but one could argue that it's what you do with your skills and resources that define you rather than merely having said skills and resources. So wait, traits from Surma and a fire elemental made it easy... but she has fewer advantages? Annie grew up around psychopomps, and did not have Tony's flat affect back then. She reached out to a ghost, and helped him even though it was scary. At age 5 or so. So Mort was nothing new, and had a precedent as someone who she should be helping. Kat did just fall into her lap. Reynard also fell into her lap, via trying to kill her, and becoming her magical slave. Smitty and Parley happened because they are classmates in a class of 3 students. In fact, very few if any of the people Annie has any kind of relationship with have that relationship because she went to them, and tried being friendly towards them. She has always let people come to her. As for skills and resources not defining you... yes, that is somewhat true, but they do influence what you can and cannot do. A person who has never learned how to drive will be deeply afraid of trying to drive on the highway, even though that is a moderately simple task for everyone else. If Annie is collateral damage, then why is Tony even back? If he completely ignores his duty to her, then she could not be held hostage in order to get him to not commit suicide and work for the court. |
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Anthony
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Post by Anthony on Nov 24, 2017 16:29:28 GMT
This chapter is going to be awkward.
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Post by antiyonder on Nov 24, 2017 16:38:30 GMT
So wait, traits from Surma and a fire elemental made it easy... but she has fewer advantages? To clarify, Tony's been around longer and had more time to mature. So if you don't think it's fair to expect him to do better than the younger person with less years of experience, then inheriting a personality trait and elemental doesn't mean social success if she doesn't use them. Between the cheating and how she reacted to the possibility of abandonment from Kat in Chapter 32 and 45, yeah still not short on immaturity Plus... He has the money and possible other resources to find help for his anxiety. Could try using it to find or create a kind of medicine to curb that trait, seek counseling. Heck just like in real life, there are likely people who share his social issues who have long since found a means to rise beyond it to the point where you wouldn't notice anything off about them. Tony could have tried seeking out such a person for advice and possibly again counseling. Instead he uses his resources to runaway and then try to communicate with his deceased wife. The underlined part I don't have a rebuttal for so I'll leave that for anyone else to weigh in, but some people in fiction or possibly life can easily face down an evil organization or army while choking when it comes to confronting their issues. Like I said, he tends to overestimate external threats, but doesn't really take the internal ones quite so seriously. |
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Post by aline on Nov 24, 2017 16:47:51 GMT
Considering our choices of avatar pictures, I think we will have to agree to disagree. If you think I dislike Tony on principles, you're wrong. I share many personality traits with the character myself. I just don't think there are valid excuses to act the way he's acting right now, with or without those personality traits. If Annie is collateral damage, then why is Tony even back? If he completely ignores his duty to her, then she could not be held hostage in order to get him to not commit suicide and work for the court. Because letting somebody else hurt Annie is a completely different pair of shoes. I'm not trying to cast Tony as some evil villain who wants his daughter to suffer. He doesn't want her to suffer. If he could make her happy by jumping in lava, I think he'd do it. Grand self sacrifice would fit nicely with his guilt issues. Unfortunately Annie is contrary. She loves him and cares for him. He thinks she *ought* to hate him. I believe to Tony, his broken relationship with Annie is one of his punishment for his faults. That's what I mean with collateral damage. He uses her to punish himself* (again with phrases like "I don't deserve", "Her father died", etc.). All he sees is "I don't get to have her". OK dude but what about her? Why doesn't she get to have you? Shouldn't she have some say in the matter? Doesn't she deserve to know some stuff about what happened and decide for herself whether she'd rather resent or forgive you? He entirely removed Annie's point of view from the equation. Not because it's impossible for him to fathom how she feels, but because he's entirely too focused on his own point of view. * But that's only him. The Court or Coyote don't get to be punished by hurting Annie.** ** I know I'm being a bit sarcastic here, it's just my weird sense of humor and is not meant in an aggressive way |
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Post by antiyonder on Nov 24, 2017 17:01:24 GMT
* But that's only him. The Court or Coyote don't get to be punished by hurting Annie.** ** I know I'm being a bit sarcastic here, it's just my weird sense of humor and is not meant in an aggressive way The story not only proves that internal threats can be more harmful, but it proves that a loved one can be the worst threat to a person than the "arch-enemy" for lack of a better description. For whatever the Court can do to Annie (expulsion being a prime one) Tony's choice to leave her in the Court without even setting her up with a guardian to protect her and give emotional support left her with fear of abandonment. Coming back just to give her a "reason you suck speech" without anything, but a faint praise of her legit scores resulting in her going back to the more withdrawn girl she was introduced as. |
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yinglung
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Post by yinglung on Nov 24, 2017 18:07:01 GMT
So wait, traits from Surma and a fire elemental made it easy... but she has fewer advantages? To clarify, Tony's been around longer and had more time to mature. So if you don't think it's fair to expect him to do better than the younger person with less years of experience, then inheriting a personality trait and elemental doesn't mean social success if she doesn't use them. Between the cheating and how she reacted to the possibility of abandonment from Kat in Chapter 32 and 45, yeah still not short on immaturity But she has them, and she does have a wider and deeper support structure helping her bridge social gaps. Annie is still immature, and she has abandonment issues, but she also has a lot of people showing and telling her they care about her. Aside from two or three people, Tony has been mostly met with indifference and hostility. For decades. From the outside, it's easy to say he should "just" get counseling, and fix himself. But for him, it feels like people don't like an aspect of his natural personality, and that will always be a part of him. Considering when this comic is set, it may very well be that he does not recognize his symptoms as an anxiety disorder. It was only in 1980 that scientists differentiated anxiety disorders without panic attacks from the more traditional diagnosis of anxiety disorders. Considering his entire time at the hospital was devoted to trying to find a way to keep his wife alive, to the point that most of the staff did not like or outright hated him, I think it's not that surprising that he would put aside trying to fix himself in order to see Surma again when she died. Not excusing him abandoning Annie, just saying that Tony has a history of ignoring his own well being for the sake of Surma. If he could bring Surma back, then that would be much more important than getting the counseling necessary to have a normal social life. The existence of magic thus provides too much false hope in being able to bring Surma back from the dead, and thus Tony pursued that instead of grief counseling, like we think would be normal. If Annie is collateral damage, then why is Tony even back? If he completely ignores his duty to her, then she could not be held hostage in order to get him to not commit suicide and work for the court. Because letting somebody else hurt Annie is a completely different pair of shoes. I'm not trying to cast Tony as some evil villain who wants his daughter to suffer. He doesn't want her to suffer. If he could make her happy by jumping in lava, I think he'd do it. Grand self sacrifice would fit nicely with his guilt issues. Unfortunately Annie is contrary. She loves him and cares for him. He thinks she *ought* to hate him. I believe to Tony, his broken relationship with Annie is one of his punishment for his faults. That's what I mean with collateral damage. He uses her to punish himself* (again with phrases like "I don't deserve", "Her father died", etc.). All he sees is "I don't get to have her". OK dude but what about her? Why doesn't she get to have you? Shouldn't she have some say in the matter? Doesn't she deserve to know some stuff about what happened and decide for herself whether she'd rather resent or forgive you? He entirely removed Annie's point of view from the equation. Not because it's impossible for him to fathom how she feels, but because he's entirely too focused on his own point of view. I agree that Tony is too guilt-ridden to accurately understand Annie's feelings toward him, but I disagree that he doesn't let her have a say. He asked her if there is anything else. So far, we have only seen him retreat from her when Kat is around, possibly so that he doesn't take time away from Annie being with her friends. Annie probably could talk to him at any point that he is at his home, but she doesn't for her own valid reasons. Right now, I think the two of them are still trying to figure out how their relationship should go, and are somewhat equally hesitant to make the first move. These things do take time, and as we may be seeing... a Katalyst *bidum tshhhh* |
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