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Post by Runningflame on Oct 11, 2017 3:05:24 GMT
Let's all chill out for a sec. Mostly I'm going to reiterate stuff others have said, but let's not jump to conclusions. In today's page, Tony is * clearly* being flirty (something previously unbelievable of him) and Surma is clearly receptive. Nowhere in this page's tone has it given me the literal meaning, "Why yes, Surma, when you wear makeup all I want is to have hot hot intercourse with you". What the word 'sexy' tells me is, "I find you attractive and the things you do attractive". Which is a typical thing to say to someone you like. I have told my partner I find him wearing suits "sexy" but that doesn't mean that I find anyone wearing a suit sexy; I've seen 12 year olds and 70 year olds in suits and it's just clothes. Like, c'mon. There's sexy things and then there's outright fetishes. Nowhere do we see signs that it's a Tony fetish. (Also note that Brinnie, too, wore makeup. And he didn't say she was sexy. So.) Now whatever happens confronting his daughter many years later 3 years after the death of his wife, which was traumatic, and after attempting to contact his wife, which was also traumatic, is a different matter. When he returned to the Court Annie was like 13-14 years old, which * is* a bit young for makeup-wearing, even though her mom did the same (I have been yelled at by my own mother for much less, I didn't start wearing makeup until I was 15), and she did look strikingly like Surma, so his terrible personality translated all his mental anguish into (and I quote), "go to the rest room and wash that ridiculous makeup from your face, cosmetics are not allowed in my classes". Which is just the unhealthy way of dealing with mental breakdown, not a way to find your daughter attractive. You've brought out an important distinction that I hadn't thought about before: Tony thinks Surma wearing makeup is sexy, rather than thinking makeup itself is sexy. When I first read this page, I (and others, evidently) assumed he meant the latter; but reading it again now, I can definitely see it as the former. (Especially with your point about Brinnie.) Thanks for helping clarify that. |
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yinglung
Full Member
It's only a tatter of mime.
Posts: 190
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Post by yinglung on Oct 11, 2017 3:32:50 GMT
Being uncomfortable about being reminded of your dead wife is creepy? Being uncomfortable with your daughter reminding you about your dead wife is creepy? It's creepy to be uncomfortable with the situation of your daughter wearing make-up after the fashion of your dead wife, on whom you found that make-up to be sexy? How is it creepy to be disconcerted by such things? It's creepy that any of that is a thing to be disconcerted by in the first place. Most people are disconcerted by the idea that their parents had/have sex. Are most people creepy? |
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Post by youwiththeface on Oct 11, 2017 5:14:47 GMT
It's creepy that any of that is a thing to be disconcerted by in the first place. I don't understand. If a memory is painful, and you haven't reached a place where you can look back on something without feeling like a complete failure of a human being or claiming guilt for what happened... why is it creepy to be emotionally upset when things happen that remind you of it? It gives me vibes of 'I'm bothered that my kid looks sexy doing this thing' when the point would be you shouldn't be looking at your kid and thinking they're sexy in the first place. We've all been talking about Tony seeing Annie as Surma to one degree or another, but that's also happened with Reynard and Coyote, and before you go "but they were seeing her Fire Spirit!" let's not forget Jimmy Jims. If Tony's being reminded, strongly reminded, of Surma by Annie is creepy, let us remember that Eglamore is the person of the two humans in this group who has, albeit under stress, acted on that reminder by behaving as if Annie were Surma. Meanwhile, Tony, while nearly "[losing his] mind" on seeing Annie looking so much like the wife he still blames himself for the death of... never actually confuses the two (outside of a stylized representation I would argue is intended to enhance that strength of the impact, not indicate that he literally thought Annie was Surma). Neither of them ever described anything of Surma's as sexy and then told Annie not to have it or do it. And while it's true Eggs and Rey have had issues with how much Annie looks like Surma that's still different in a significant way. Presumably neither have seen Surma since she left and decided to have a child, so neither of them would know she passed on her flame, making it easier for Annie to take them off guard. This is not the case with Tony. Plus, they both seemed to have gotten over it to a degree that Tony has not. It's creepy that any of that is a thing to be disconcerted by in the first place. Most people are disconcerted by the idea that their parents had/have sex. Are most people creepy? You've got the logic of that wrong. The question would be 'are parents creepy for having sex'. |
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yinglung
Full Member
It's only a tatter of mime.
Posts: 190
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Post by yinglung on Oct 11, 2017 6:03:08 GMT
No, your argument so far has been that a parent, being weirded out by recognizing signs of sexual maturity in their children, is creepy. Ostensibly this is an expression of the incest taboo. So to turn it around, are children who are weirded out by recognizing signs of sexual maturity in their parents also creepy?
Frankly, the way you seem to imagine how a parent's mind should work is rather unrealistic. Mothers often feel sad as their children pass by various milestones of life, confronted with the truth that their child will continue to change and eventually, leave them. If I were to put words into your mouth, I would imagine you saying that the mother is creepy and codependent about her child, infantilizing them in her mind.
It is normal for a parent to not react to every development in their child's life with serene acceptance and encouragement. They should be allowed to be human.
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QuotePilgrim
Full Member
Behind my door, there are twelve other doors.
Posts: 142
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Post by QuotePilgrim on Oct 11, 2017 9:44:45 GMT
Come on, you honestly don't find any aspect of this situation creepy?? The situation you detailed is the DEFINITION of creepy. And that's what we're dealing with here. So, if a young woman does something sexy and her father is uncomfortable with her doing that thing, you find that creepy? Alright then. I've honestly given up trying to understand your logic here, 'cause I clearly never will. I'm just going to point out that I'm not the only one who sees absolutely no creepiness in the situation. Anyway, Tony's reaction to Annie wearing makeup doesn't need to have anything to do with the makeup's sexiness, I was just arguing that point because you specifically said him finding Surma's makeup sexy made the situation creepy. He just freaked out because Annie reminded him of his dead wife, as she literally looks identical to her. Honestly I think it would be weirder if Tony didn't see Annie as Surma in that particular page. |
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Post by TBeholder on Oct 11, 2017 10:31:15 GMT
This flirting and relationship does seem kind of oddly placed, but then we haven't really seen much of Surma and Eglamore together, and how they treated each other, or how good their relationship really was. Perhaps old Jimmy Jims never gave Surma many compliments, or took any interest in her powers, and Surma is surprised and pleased to be getting nicer attention than before? Or she's a little exasperated by now. |
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Post by Zox Tomana on Oct 11, 2017 16:00:50 GMT
I don't understand. If a memory is painful, and you haven't reached a place where you can look back on something without feeling like a complete failure of a human being or claiming guilt for what happened... why is it creepy to be emotionally upset when things happen that remind you of it? It gives me vibes of 'I'm bothered that my kid looks sexy doing this thing' when the point would be you shouldn't be looking at your kid and thinking they're sexy in the first place. I clearly must not have been clear in my arguments. I apologize. I have not been trying to say that Tony, on seeing Annie in make-up, is viewing her as an object of sexual attraction and thus is becoming upset. I'm trying to point out that Tony found said make-up to be attractive on Surma, therefore Annie wearing said make-up acts as a double whammy in reminding Tony of Surma because it makes an already remarkable resemblance more pronounced. There is a context to his reactions towards the make-up, namely person (Surma vs. Annie) and time (courtship vs. grief). For an extra bit on the importance of context, I refer you to what fia pointed out here: In today's page, Tony is * clearly* being flirty (something previously unbelievable of him) and Surma is clearly receptive. Nowhere in this page's tone has it given me the literal meaning, "Why yes, Surma, when you wear makeup all I want is to have hot hot intercourse with you". What the word 'sexy' tells me is, "I find you attractive and the things you do attractive". Which is a typical thing to say to someone you like. I have told my partner I find him wearing suits "sexy" but that doesn't mean that I find anyone wearing a suit sexy; I've seen 12 year olds and 70 year olds in suits and it's just clothes. Like, c'mon. There's sexy things and then there's outright fetishes. Nowhere do we see signs that it's a Tony fetish. (Also note that Brinnie, too, wore makeup. And he didn't say she was sexy. So.) |
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Post by tc on Oct 12, 2017 6:05:55 GMT
Anthony is not a good father Is he not? The more we're learning since his return, the more complicated his actions and the possible motivations behind them seem. It's reasonable to assume that he's never been the most "touchy-feely" of parents, but we've certainly seen that he loves Annie deeply, and has guided and protected her in the past (remember Annie's martial arts memory/flashback?). Yup, I've mentioned that flashback a few times - it seems to be set roughly around the winter before the current chapter (allowing time for Surma's hair to grow back). If that's the case, it implies that Surma has been questioning whether Sir Jimmy is really the right one for her for several months now at least. |
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Post by Rasselas on Oct 12, 2017 9:47:42 GMT
As to all this "Anthony is creepy?" debate; consider this example. A person finds pageant toddlers in makeup disturbing. Is this person simply finding makeup on children inappropriate and crass, or are they a creepy pedophile? You don't have to be creepy to find makeup on children inappropriate. Even though I agree with QuotePilgrim that it's more about seeing Surma through Annie, and being confronted with the passing of his wife, which he still hasn't come to terms with, and his guilt over what he did to his daughter by trying to summon Surma's flame. I think that any idea of sexuality would be far outweighed by the horrendous grief and loss. A grieving man wouldn't have the mental space for such things. |
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