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Post by fish on Oct 9, 2017 15:52:13 GMT
-As we've learned today, Tony thinks the makeup is sexy. (Or maybe the lack of makeup. Not quite clear on this.) GUYS! This page does not imply ew! Antimony has no idea about what her dad is into, she just wants to look like her mom because she loved her and she misses her. Stop reading so much into this! AND ALSO, it is 100% clear that Tony is telling Surma that he has always thought the makeup was sexy, there is no room for misinterpretation here.  The thing where Tony told Antimony to take off the makeup was most likely him thinking his daughter was trying to be sexy, and that it was inappropriate for someone her age. He was most likely oblivious to the fact that Antimony was just trying to be like her mom. While it is a little creepy for dads to be policing their daughters' sexuality, it is not out of the norm by any means. I don't think even that's the case (policing sexuality, I mean). I read this as follows: Anthony was emotionally unstable when he came back to the Court. That scene where he criticises Annie's makeup was the very first time he saw his daughter again. He sais " She looked so much like her... I almost lost my mind right there." but I think grief was implied, not... attraction. So he's on the verge of a nervous breakdown in front of a class. What does he do? Remove, as much as possible, the source of the problem. He can't credibly remove Annie from class, so he makes her change her appearance, to look a little less like Surma. (Of course, no matter how understandable his situation and action was, it was still a shitty thing to do and he should be ashamed (which he probably is).) Now this whole sexual complex thing (which has been brought a few days ago, so... almost cookies?), I'm not sure Tom would really ever go that rout. This is supposed to be an all ages comic after all. But the material so far certainly does lend itself to speculations in that direction. |
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Post by warrl on Oct 9, 2017 17:53:14 GMT
Actually, I think he wants his daughter to NOT be sexy. Let's not Trump things up beyond reasonable proportions. Suddenly I can imagine how that classroom discussion could have been even worse than it was. "Daughter, that make-up style of your mother's was the erotic kink our marriage was based on. Please remove it ASAP." Saying that in class would have been very bad. Saying it in private would have been an explanation that Annie could understand and not feel personally insulted over. It would have been much better than what we have been shown to have happened. (Particularly if the in-class explanation were not so degrading and simultaneously hypocritical - she was not the only one wearing makeup, but she was the only one told to remove it.) |
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Post by ih8pkmn on Oct 9, 2017 17:54:40 GMT
Man. We're getting into some major Electra complex themes here now, aren't we. To be perfectly honest, this page plus all the other pages where Anthony comments on his daughter's makeup is...kinda uncomfortable. No, no. Electra complex is where the daughter wants to have sex with the father. Anthony Carver is just a goddamn incestuous monster on top of being a general dickburger, and the psychological implications that one line has has just made him infinitely more punchable. It's like Tom is trying to make his character funny and likable, but somehow fails every single time. It's remarkable, and the only comparison I can make is if J.K. Rowling tried to make Umbridge seem like a reasonable person in Harry Potter. The main problem, as I see it, is that he's trying to put Anthony through a redemption arc without making him work for it, and instead trying to show that Annie is the one at fault for... why exactly? Acting naturally to a parent that you've not seen in almost half a decade suddenly showing up and pulling your life apart within about an hour of meeting you? Repressing her feelings because she might literally melt down a good part of the court with one of her meltdowns? Annie is the one being punished, while Anthony gets off scot-free every single time. And one line on this one page compounds the whole thing a hell of a lot more. I'm at my limit for this comic. If Anthony doesn't get punched in the face by someone (preferably either Annie, Zimmy or Eglamore) before the end of the year, I'm done. |
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Post by frogspawned on Oct 9, 2017 18:24:23 GMT
Nothing we have seen about Tony makes him out to be a monster, let alone an incestuous one.
I don't think trying to find a cure for a rare magical condition makes you evil - and neither does punishing someone for cheating in their schoolwork or flouting school dress codes.
Besides, he's already been punched in the face - and lost an arm to boot. If I thought he'd done anything necessitating a redemption arc, I would think that he's suffered more than enough for his poor choices already. As it stands, though, I don't think he's done anything to warrant "redemption" particularly, he's simply acted on imperfect information because he's human.
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kefka
Junior Member
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Post by kefka on Oct 9, 2017 19:27:04 GMT
I don't see why everyone's talking about incest, I mean, come on...
I'm pretty sure he didn't like Brinnie at all and just didn't know what to do about the situation (also he was younger and confused about his feelings or lack thereof).
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Post by foresterr on Oct 9, 2017 19:33:47 GMT
I think the whole currently narrated situation actually follows up very nicely from this conversation between Tony and Donnie. Tony must have came to terms with at least some unacceptable answers  |
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Post by youwiththeface on Oct 9, 2017 19:57:53 GMT
Nothing we have seen about Tony makes him out to be a monster, let alone an incestuous one. I don't think trying to find a cure for a rare magical condition makes you evil - and neither does punishing someone for cheating in their schoolwork or flouting school dress codes. There's nothing wrong with trying to find a cure for a rare magical condition. There are a lot of things wrong with, in the process, neglecting your daughter to the point where for several years she doesn't have any way of knowing you're even alive, not only accidentally doing something to her that causes physical harm but not telling her or apologizing to her for doing it, (not to mention brushing off her concern for your lost hand as not her business when it absolutely is because you lost that hand in the aforementioned hurting of her) or singling her out for her make up when other students were wearing some. And yeah, I gotta say, Tony describing the make-up as sexy is.....kind of ew, in retrospect. When you combine that with the fact that we know how much Annie and Surma look alike and that he didn't want Annie wearing the make up because it reminded him of her....I don't think Tom meant to imply that at all, but I get just a ghost of that impression from his choice of words here and I don't care for it. Plus, it makes him look like even more of a jackass in hindsight because he told Annie her make-up looked ridiculous when we now know he didn't think that about Surma's make-up at all. |
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Post by nero on Oct 9, 2017 20:02:44 GMT
I'm surprised Anthony used the words "very sexy", it just seems out of place for him. I guess he feels that relaxed with Surma.
Anthony has not been a good dad to Annie so far and I hope for Annie that he improves. Anthony is not that kind of person, so I don't think we have to worry about those kind of issues. I'm sure it would be hard for anyone to see the exact same face of their dead wife on their daughter because it makes them miss that person.
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QuotePilgrim
Full Member
Behind my door, there are twelve other doors.
Posts: 142
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Post by QuotePilgrim on Oct 9, 2017 20:09:54 GMT
No, no. Electra complex is where the daughter wants to have sex with the father. Anthony Carver is just a goddamn incestuous monster on top of being a general dickburger, and the psychological implications that one line has has just made him infinitely more punchable. Man, you are reading this comic completely wrong. The crazy thing is that I'd usually be first person to say that no interpretation of a work of fiction is wrong but, yeah, you are totally interpreting things wrong. Tony thinks Surma's makeup is sexy (and there is absolutely no ambiguity there, unlike a couple of people seem to have thought), and the very first thing he does when he sees his daughter wearing the same makeup is to tell her to take it off. That is pretty much literally the exact opposite of incestuous. Seriously, it boggles the mind that anyone would arrive at the conclusion you arrived. My interpretation of Tony's character (and I'm fine with people disagreeing) is that he's constantly trying to be a good person, but every good thing he attempts to do ends up having unintentional bad consequences—and I kinda struggle to understand why anyone here sees him as basically evil incarnate—. This makes him, in my eyes, one of the most interesting characters in the comic, and straight up the most believably human one (and, by extension, one of the most relatable, at least to me). He has flaws that would make it difficult to live with him if he were a real person, yes, but these flaws are what make him one of the best characters (again, IMO) in the comic. |
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Post by fish on Oct 9, 2017 20:11:04 GMT
Anthony Carver is just a goddamn incestuous monster on top of being a general dickburger, and the psychological implications that one line has has just made him infinitely more punchable. There are young men who find certain makeup on women attractive, even sexy. Sometimes these men grow up and have daughters of their own. Some of those daughters decide to put on makeup as well... does that make their fathers, who will have to look at their makeup wearing daughters at some point, somehow monsters retroactively? Chronology is a thing. Anthony is not a good father, but implications of incestuous thoughts are ridiculous. |
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Post by KMar on Oct 9, 2017 20:46:18 GMT
I'm pretty sure he didn't like Brinnie at all and just didn't know what to do about the situation (also he was younger and confused about his feelings or lack thereof). I agree. "A very attractive girl has a crush on me and everyone (from cultural stereotypes to my schoolmates) assumes that I will reciprocate, but somehow I'm not really that interested in her", with additional teenage confusion would be very plausible explanation for the events. Also, I'm still reading Tony and Surma here as "young adults". Given the art style changes, I'm not discounting the possibility that this particular episode could happen after the flashback where Surma complains to Anja that Jimmy Jims is always away. |
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Post by warrl on Oct 9, 2017 21:13:43 GMT
Not only the art style changes, but in that flashback they were wearing winter coats. That tends to make young people look older and more mature, as compared to thin warm-weather garb.
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Post by faiiry on Oct 9, 2017 21:40:47 GMT
I wasn't necessarily trying to make a sexual implication, but the whole situation is certainly twisted, and no matter how you want to look at it, Tony views his daughter in a very weird light (that I'm very, very not comfortable with). After all the reactions we've seen Tony give to Antimony's makeup, to have this whole page where a young Tony pointedly refers to that same makeup as "sexy" adds a whole new level of weird to this situation. Especially remembering this page where Tony literally sees Antimony as Surma. I have sympathy for Tony, but I think his relationship with, and the way he views, his daughter is very odd, twisted, and yes, a little creepy. |
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Post by Zox Tomana on Oct 9, 2017 22:35:26 GMT
I wasn't necessarily trying to make a sexual implication, but the whole situation is certainly twisted, and no matter how you want to look at it, Tony views his daughter in a very weird light (that I'm very, very not comfortable with). After all the reactions we've seen Tony give to Antimony's makeup, to have this whole page where a young Tony pointedly refers to that same makeup as "sexy" adds a whole new level of weird to this situation. Especially remembering this page where Tony literally sees Antimony as Surma. I have sympathy for Tony, but I think his relationship with, and the way he views, his daughter is very odd, twisted, and yes, a little creepy. I find it difficult to see the creepy you are seeing. His daughter looks like her mother, the most significant difference thus far being their hair. Tony found Surma's make-up sexy. Tony still loves his wife. Annie wears make-up for reasons not entirely explained thus far, probably for emotional guard and possibly to look like/identify with her mother. Tony returns, still horribly broken inside where Surma is concerned. Tony sees Annie, who looks like her mom, wearing make-up in the same manner which her mother did. That "literal seeing" can either be easily explained as indicating how strong the reminder is, or accepted as Tony seeing just that much resemblance between Annie and Surma. That same chapter gives us a side-by-side view of Annie and her mom. Surma's shoulders seem a little broader, her face a little rounder... but Tom did a good job of bringing across their strong resemblance. It's hard for me to find Tony's reaction to Annie's make-up creepy. He's frustrated. He's upset. This is about his daughter reminding him of the wife he loved so much, and that resemblance (enhanced by the make-up) throws salt on a wound that is still very much open. He's still acts like an ass, but I don't find him creepy. |
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Post by Rasselas on Oct 9, 2017 22:37:56 GMT
Man, you are reading this comic completely wrong. The crazy thing is that I'd usually be first person to say that no interpretation of a work of fiction is wrong but, yeah, you are totally interpreting things wrong. Tony thinks Surma's makeup is sexy (and there is absolutely no ambiguity there, unlike a couple of people seem to have thought), and the very first thing he does when he sees his daughter wearing the same makeup is to tell her to take it off. That is pretty much literally the exact opposite of incestuous. Seriously, it boggles the mind that anyone would arrive at the conclusion you arrived. My interpretation of Tony's character (and I'm fine with people disagreeing) is that he's constantly trying to be a good person, but every good thing he attempts to do ends up having unintentional bad consequences—and I kinda struggle to understand why anyone here sees him as basically evil incarnate—. This makes him, in my eyes, one of the most interesting characters in the comic, and straight up the most believably human one (and, by extension, one of the most relatable, at least to me). He has flaws that would make it difficult to live with him if he were a real person, yes, but these flaws are what make him one of the best characters (again, IMO) in the comic. I agree with you wholeheartedly. Also, my sig.  I think people are used to Dolores Umbridges in their literature and not used to Anthony Carvers. I'd advise them to pick better literature. Real people are never black and white, it's all a murky grey. |
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Post by saardvark on Oct 10, 2017 3:18:04 GMT
I wasn't necessarily trying to make a sexual implication, but the whole situation is certainly twisted, and no matter how you want to look at it, Tony views his daughter in a very weird light (that I'm very, very not comfortable with). After all the reactions we've seen Tony give to Antimony's makeup, to have this whole page where a young Tony pointedly refers to that same makeup as "sexy" adds a whole new level of weird to this situation. Especially remembering this page where Tony literally sees Antimony as Surma. I have sympathy for Tony, but I think his relationship with, and the way he views, his daughter is very odd, twisted, and yes, a little creepy. I don't really feel the creepy, but the weird twist, yeah, I can def feel that. Annie with makeup looks like her mother, but even without actually *IS* her mother, at least in part. Since the fire elemental has now passed to Annie, part of Surma is now in Annie. The fire elemental seems to have a subtle influence on the host's emotional character, making them more lively, vivacious, fiery... certainly Annie was a drained husk emotionally when she cut herself off from her fire. Perhaps much of what Tony loved about Surma was still there in his daughter. And yet the transference of that same something is *why* Surma had died. So, without it being sexual or anything... yeah, that would still mess with your mind a bit. |
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Post by Runningflame on Oct 10, 2017 3:25:10 GMT
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Post by CarbonRabbit on Oct 10, 2017 4:55:08 GMT
Not only the art style changes, but in that flashback they were wearing winter coats. That tends to make young people look older and more mature, as compared to thin warm-weather garb. Well, not just that, but also Surma's hair was short. |
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Post by philman on Oct 10, 2017 7:52:12 GMT
I think this chapter is indeed set after that one where she complains Eglamore is always away. there are several pages where it is mentioned that Surma and Tony got together one summer while Eglamore was away for training www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1097Here for example Eglamore is sitting with his travelling bag looking like he has just gotten back from somewhere, all upset that Surma has left him, it has obviously only just happened. |
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QuotePilgrim
Full Member
Behind my door, there are twelve other doors.
Posts: 142
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Post by QuotePilgrim on Oct 10, 2017 11:10:34 GMT
I have sympathy for Tony, but I think his relationship with, and the way he views, his daughter is very odd, twisted, and yes, a little creepy. Creepy how, exactly? Imagine yourself being a guy who finds a particular kind of makeup very sexy. Imagine now, that one day you see your daughter wearing that kind of makeup. Would you be fine with it, or would you feel uncomfortable and wish she'd take it off? It may just be me, but I personally think the former, not the latter, is the creepy one here. Honestly, I feel like knowing what Tony thinks about Surma's makeup makes the way he reacted when he saw Annie wearing it seem almost reasonable. (Please note I said almost.) |
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Post by faiiry on Oct 10, 2017 11:26:52 GMT
I have sympathy for Tony, but I think his relationship with, and the way he views, his daughter is very odd, twisted, and yes, a little creepy. Creepy how, exactly? Imagine yourself being a guy who finds a particular kind of makeup very sexy. Imagine now, that one day you see your daughter wearing that kind of makeup. Would you be fine with it, or would you feel uncomfortable and wish she'd take it off? It may just be me, but I personally think the former, not the latter, is the creepy one here. Honestly, I feel like knowing what Tony thinks about Surma's makeup makes the way he reacted when he saw Annie wearing it seem almost reasonable. (Please note I said almost.) Come on, you honestly don't find any aspect of this situation creepy?? The situation you detailed is the DEFINITION of creepy. And that's what we're dealing with here. |
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Post by tc on Oct 10, 2017 13:16:24 GMT
As I've said before, demanding that Annie remove her make-up is the one thing which I consider to be unjustifiable on Tony's part. But then sometimes parents do overreact. I doubt *very* much that Tony's reaction was down to anything which could be considered "Squick", as much as it was a sudden (and probably frightening) reminder that their daughter was growing up fast and he was (and still is) running out of time to find a way to save her.
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yinglung
Full Member
It's only a tatter of mime.
Posts: 190
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Post by yinglung on Oct 10, 2017 14:03:37 GMT
It's worth mentioning that prior to this, Tony performed a ritual to see Surma again, where he was horrified to to learn that he was harming his daughter to do so. He spent months recovering from that, mentally and physically. And then when he sees his daughter again, he sees so much of Surma in her appearance. So he still has his grief tearing at him, his guilt over what he thinks of an unforgivable offense against his daughter, and both are triggered to the point of almost driving him insane by seeing Annie's striking resemblance to her mother. I'm not excusing how he treated Annie, but I'm not seeing a sexual, creepy element here. Tony at that moment was a traumatized man trying not to lose his mind.
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ST13R
Full Member
Quiet little mouse
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Post by ST13R on Oct 10, 2017 14:54:59 GMT
I think this chapter is indeed set after that one where she complains Eglamore is always away. there are several pages where it is mentioned that Surma and Tony got together one summer while Eglamore was away for training www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1097Here for example Eglamore is sitting with his travelling bag looking like he has just gotten back from somewhere, all upset that Surma has left him, it has obviously only just happened. Oh, I was actually thinking it happened after Brazil, because of the short hair. It's kind of common (especially in this comic) to do something drastic to your hair when 'starting a new chapter of your life'. I feel that throughout this chapter Surma is learning new stuff about herself, and she's being appreciated for it. Maybe Eglamore was being too protective of her? (I could even see him say that 'her make-up is silly..'). So while they may not have split up yet, she's learned to stand up for herself in Brazil, and in the process, lost some appreciation for the strong and manly type (instead seeing his flaws: being away all the time.) The page you're referring to I think happens after Eglamore is gone -again-. Not during the trip. But that's just my interpretation  |
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Post by fia on Oct 10, 2017 15:42:43 GMT
Let's all chill out for a sec. Mostly I'm going to reiterate stuff others have said, but let's not jump to conclusions.
In today's page, Tony is *clearly* being flirty (something previously unbelievable of him) and Surma is clearly receptive. Nowhere in this page's tone has it given me the literal meaning, "Why yes, Surma, when you wear makeup all I want is to have hot hot intercourse with you". What the word 'sexy' tells me is, "I find you attractive and the things you do attractive". Which is a typical thing to say to someone you like.
I have told my partner I find him wearing suits "sexy" but that doesn't mean that I find anyone wearing a suit sexy; I've seen 12 year olds and 70 year olds in suits and it's just clothes. Like, c'mon. There's sexy things and then there's outright fetishes. Nowhere do we see signs that it's a Tony fetish.
(Also note that Brinnie, too, wore makeup. And he didn't say she was sexy. So.)
Now whatever happens confronting his daughter many years later 3 years after the death of his wife, which was traumatic, and after attempting to contact his wife, which was also traumatic, is a different matter. When he returned to the Court Annie was like 13-14 years old, which *is* a bit young for makeup-wearing, even though her mom did the same (I have been yelled at by my own mother for much less, I didn't start wearing makeup until I was 15), and she did look strikingly like Surma, so his terrible personality translated all his mental anguish into (and I quote), "go to the rest room and wash that ridiculous makeup from your face, cosmetics are not allowed in my classes". Which is just the unhealthy way of dealing with mental breakdown, not a way to find your daughter attractive.
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clover
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Post by clover on Oct 10, 2017 16:39:05 GMT
I'm a bit amazed with the ways in which many people here interpret straightforward, receptively received flirtiness or the connotations of a .... woman wearing makeup? It's hard for me to get my head around. Incestutousness?
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Post by Zox Tomana on Oct 10, 2017 21:12:16 GMT
Creepy how, exactly? Imagine yourself being a guy who finds a particular kind of makeup very sexy. Imagine now, that one day you see your daughter wearing that kind of makeup. Would you be fine with it, or would you feel uncomfortable and wish she'd take it off? It may just be me, but I personally think the former, not the latter, is the creepy one here. Honestly, I feel like knowing what Tony thinks about Surma's makeup makes the way he reacted when he saw Annie wearing it seem almost reasonable. (Please note I said almost.) Come on, you honestly don't find any aspect of this situation creepy?? The situation you detailed is the DEFINITION of creepy. And that's what we're dealing with here. Being uncomfortable about being reminded of your dead wife is creepy? Being uncomfortable with your daughter reminding you about your dead wife is creepy? It's creepy to be uncomfortable with the situation of your daughter wearing make-up after the fashion of your dead wife, on whom you found that make-up to be sexy? How is it creepy to be disconcerted by such things? |
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Post by youwiththeface on Oct 10, 2017 23:38:47 GMT
Come on, you honestly don't find any aspect of this situation creepy?? The situation you detailed is the DEFINITION of creepy. And that's what we're dealing with here. Being uncomfortable about being reminded of your dead wife is creepy? Being uncomfortable with your daughter reminding you about your dead wife is creepy? It's creepy to be uncomfortable with the situation of your daughter wearing make-up after the fashion of your dead wife, on whom you found that make-up to be sexy? How is it creepy to be disconcerted by such things? It's creepy that any of that is a thing to be disconcerted by in the first place. |
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Post by fwip on Oct 11, 2017 0:48:10 GMT
I think it was made clear in previous flashbacks that Surma and Eglamore were dating, although don't have time now to find specific references. Do you mean this? |
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Post by Zox Tomana on Oct 11, 2017 0:55:05 GMT
Being uncomfortable about being reminded of your dead wife is creepy? Being uncomfortable with your daughter reminding you about your dead wife is creepy? It's creepy to be uncomfortable with the situation of your daughter wearing make-up after the fashion of your dead wife, on whom you found that make-up to be sexy? How is it creepy to be disconcerted by such things? It's creepy that any of that is a thing to be disconcerted by in the first place. I don't understand. If a memory is painful, and you haven't reached a place where you can look back on something without feeling like a complete failure of a human being or claiming guilt for what happened... why is it creepy to be emotionally upset when things happen that remind you of it? We've all been talking about Tony seeing Annie as Surma to one degree or another, but that's also happened with Reynard and Coyote, and before you go "but they were seeing her Fire Spirit!" let's not forget Jimmy Jims. If Tony's being reminded, strongly reminded, of Surma by Annie is creepy, let us remember that Eglamore is the person of the two humans in this group who has, albeit under stress, acted on that reminder by behaving as if Annie were Surma. Meanwhile, Tony, while nearly "[losing his] mind" on seeing Annie looking so much like the wife he still blames himself for the death of... never actually confuses the two (outside of a stylized representation I would argue is intended to enhance that strength of the impact, not indicate that he literally thought Annie was Surma). |
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I think people are used to Dolores Umbridges in their literature and not used to Anthony Carvers. I'd advise them to pick better literature. Real people are never black and white, it's all a murky grey.
