Post by Runningflame on Apr 8, 2017 6:43:46 GMT
I've been intrigued reading about everyone's translations and the challenges that accompany them. So I decided to take a stab at it. Unfortunately, the only language I know besides English is Biblical Greek... and even there, my training and resources are geared toward translating from Greek to English, not English to Greek. Nonetheless, I am now able to present Γάνερκριγ Κόρ, page 1576:
(Thanks to Keef for the page with blank speech bubbles.)
It was an interesting experiment, and gave me a better understanding of what you translators have to wrestle with. How do the English and Greek verb tenses correspond? What exactly is the English perfect tense conveying in this particular situation--taking into account what I know about the story--and does that correspond to the uses of the Greek perfect tense? When and how much to paraphrase? (If it doesn't sound natural in Greek? If it wouldn't fit in the speech bubble? If I have no earthly clue what the Greek word for that concept might be?) How to render names, since keeping them in Latin letters isn't really an option?
I don't expect to make this a regular thing, though I may do more pages sporadically. (Translating into a dead language isn't likely to attract many readers.) But I sure had fun, and got to stretch my Greek muscles in ways they hadn't been stretched before.
Here's my Greek transliterated into Latin letters, a highly literal translation back into English, and my translation notes, if anyone's interested:
If by chance there's anyone here who knows Ancient Greek (Koine or earlier, although this was specifically Koine), I'd love to hear what you think. I'm certainly no expert, and I'm sure the translation could be a lot better.
(Thanks to Keef for the page with blank speech bubbles.)
It was an interesting experiment, and gave me a better understanding of what you translators have to wrestle with. How do the English and Greek verb tenses correspond? What exactly is the English perfect tense conveying in this particular situation--taking into account what I know about the story--and does that correspond to the uses of the Greek perfect tense? When and how much to paraphrase? (If it doesn't sound natural in Greek? If it wouldn't fit in the speech bubble? If I have no earthly clue what the Greek word for that concept might be?) How to render names, since keeping them in Latin letters isn't really an option?
I don't expect to make this a regular thing, though I may do more pages sporadically. (Translating into a dead language isn't likely to attract many readers.) But I sure had fun, and got to stretch my Greek muscles in ways they hadn't been stretched before.
Here's my Greek transliterated into Latin letters, a highly literal translation back into English, and my translation notes, if anyone's interested:
Γάνερκριγ Κόρ transliterates as Ganerkrig Kor. Like a lot of languages, Greek didn't have the unstressed central vowels represented by u and e in "Gunnerkrigg," so I substituted an ah sound for the first one and a short e sound for the second. (It could also be Γάναρκριγ, Ganarkrig, but there's virtue in matching the spelling more closely.) I simplified the doubled consonants, since English doesn't pronounce them any differently anyway. Finally, Koine Greek does not like T's at the ends of words, so I simply dropped the T from Court.
Panel 1 (Ysengrin)
Lypoumai blepōn se houtōs.
I am grieved seeing you in this way.
I struggled over the idiom "It pains me" for a while. What exactly does Ysengrin mean? That he's sad? Angry? Offended? For a while I had ἐμβριμάομαι (embrimaomai), which leans toward the angry side of things, and which felt truer to Ysengrin's character. But on its own, that word means "to scold"; in order to mean "be angry/troubled," it needs an extra phrase like "in spirit" or "in oneself." There wasn't room for that in the speech bubble. So I went with the more literal λυποῦμαι (lypoumai), "I am sad/grieved."
The construction with the present participle ("seeing") is very natural in Greek, and can carry the meaning "because I am seeing," which fits the context. Trying to keep the English infinitive construction would have been highly awkward.
Panel 2 (Ysengrin)
Theōmai ho pepoiēkas.
I perceive what you have done.
I'm particularly pleased with the verb here: out of several different verbs for seeing, θεάομαι (theaomai) can carry the sense of "see, behold w. physical eyes, but in such a way that a supernatural impression is gained"1--exactly the word for what Ysengrin is saying!
"You have done" is in the Greek perfect tense, which signifies a completed action with ongoing effects still felt into the present--again, exactly the right description for what Annie has done to her hair.
1 Bauer, Danker, Arndt, and Gingrich, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature
Panel 3 (Annie)
Epeisthēn sou tō logō, Hysengrine. Aphōrika tēn orgēn mou.
I was persuaded by your word, Ysengrin. I have separated my anger.
πείθω (peithō) in the passive actually can mean "to take someone's advice," but adding "your word" felt much better than a bare "I was persuaded by you." "Your" is slightly emphasized (σοῦ τῷ λόγῳ instead of τῷ λόγῳ σου); Annie is implying, "Hey, this was your idea to begin with--don't chide me for doing what you suggested."
I decided to keep the spelling of Ysengrin the same as much as possible. One problem: Y in Greek is upsilon, and words that start with upsilon always have a rough breathing mark (signifying an H sound). So he became Hysengrin. An alternative would be to spell it with an I instead. The other thing is that I wanted the name to be declined, so I could mark it as vocative case in this sentence--that's what the -e on the end signifies.
I decided to go back to the perfect tense for ἀφώρικα (aphōrika)--"I have separated [with continuing effects]"--rather than present tense "I am separating." The present tense felt too much like "I am currently in the process of separating [myself from] my anger," which isn't right--Annie has already made the separation; now she is maintaining it. It's a completed action with continuing effects. In this instance, the focus is less on the action and more on the effects.
Panel 4 (Ysengrin)
Ouk enomisa se poiēsein... kata gramma.
I did not suppose you would do [it]... according to [the] letter.
I don't think there's any way to tell someone that they are literal in Koine Greek. But κατὰ γράμμα (kata gramma), "according to the letter," is an idiom I'm familiar with, so I rearranged the rest of the sentence to work with that.
Now that I look at it again, it seems I have played a bit fast and loose with the grammar here... what I wrote probably means "I did not suppose you [had] acted according to the letter," rather than "you would act." Not sure how to fix that. Fixed! Future infinitives for the win. (I originally used the aorist infinitive ποιῆσαι, poiēsai.)
Panel 5 (Annie)
Epoiēsa eis to hypopherein me.
I did [it] for me to [continue to] bear up.
This one gave me fits. "Manage" is such an odd usage in English; I couldn't think of an equivalent verb, especially one that would take a direct object (as seen in Ysengrin's response, "Manage what?"). I had to think how else I might describe Annie's situation before I came up with ὑποφέρω (hypopherō), "to endure, bear up under [something]." It seemed appropriate: Anthony's return is like a heavy weight that Annie has to carry around and try to stand up under.
Next problem: the verb for "help," βοηθέω (boētheō), always seems to have a person as the subject: you can say "he helps me" or "she helps me," but I never found an occurrence of "it helps me." Eventually, I settled on leaving "help" out entirely and using an infinitive construction with εἰς (eis) indicating purpose/result: "I did this for the purpose and with the result of me bearing up." I think ἐποίησα (epoiēsa), "I did [it]," could have been kept implicit and left out, but I left it in to make the connection easier to understand.
The present infinitive ὑποφέρειν (hypopherein) implies a continuous action, which is appropriate for the verb "to endure."
Panel 6 (Ysengrin)
Hypopherein?
To bear up?
See discussion above. In the end, I thought it was enough for him to echo Annie's word. This way, I didn't have to figure out whether that verb takes a direct object, or how to inflect the verb for a full sentence, or whether question words in Greek can come after the verb ("Manage what?" instead of "What are you managing?"), etc. etc. Also, there wasn't much space in the speech bubble.
Panel 7 (Annie)
Ho patēr mou... hypestrepsen.
My father... returned.
I so badly wanted to use the perfect tense again here! It would fit, um, perfectly: Anthony's return is a completed action that definitely has ongoing effects. Unfortunately,
So I had to settle for the simple past tense "he returned." Siiiigh.
Panel 8 (Ysengrin)
Kai?
And?
Same as Keef's Dutch translation, actually. It works well in Greek too.
Panel 1 (Ysengrin)
Lypoumai blepōn se houtōs.
I am grieved seeing you in this way.
I struggled over the idiom "It pains me" for a while. What exactly does Ysengrin mean? That he's sad? Angry? Offended? For a while I had ἐμβριμάομαι (embrimaomai), which leans toward the angry side of things, and which felt truer to Ysengrin's character. But on its own, that word means "to scold"; in order to mean "be angry/troubled," it needs an extra phrase like "in spirit" or "in oneself." There wasn't room for that in the speech bubble. So I went with the more literal λυποῦμαι (lypoumai), "I am sad/grieved."
The construction with the present participle ("seeing") is very natural in Greek, and can carry the meaning "because I am seeing," which fits the context. Trying to keep the English infinitive construction would have been highly awkward.
Panel 2 (Ysengrin)
Theōmai ho pepoiēkas.
I perceive what you have done.
I'm particularly pleased with the verb here: out of several different verbs for seeing, θεάομαι (theaomai) can carry the sense of "see, behold w. physical eyes, but in such a way that a supernatural impression is gained"1--exactly the word for what Ysengrin is saying!
"You have done" is in the Greek perfect tense, which signifies a completed action with ongoing effects still felt into the present--again, exactly the right description for what Annie has done to her hair.
1 Bauer, Danker, Arndt, and Gingrich, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature
Panel 3 (Annie)
Epeisthēn sou tō logō, Hysengrine. Aphōrika tēn orgēn mou.
I was persuaded by your word, Ysengrin. I have separated my anger.
πείθω (peithō) in the passive actually can mean "to take someone's advice," but adding "your word" felt much better than a bare "I was persuaded by you." "Your" is slightly emphasized (σοῦ τῷ λόγῳ instead of τῷ λόγῳ σου); Annie is implying, "Hey, this was your idea to begin with--don't chide me for doing what you suggested."
I decided to keep the spelling of Ysengrin the same as much as possible. One problem: Y in Greek is upsilon, and words that start with upsilon always have a rough breathing mark (signifying an H sound). So he became Hysengrin. An alternative would be to spell it with an I instead. The other thing is that I wanted the name to be declined, so I could mark it as vocative case in this sentence--that's what the -e on the end signifies.
I decided to go back to the perfect tense for ἀφώρικα (aphōrika)--"I have separated [with continuing effects]"--rather than present tense "I am separating." The present tense felt too much like "I am currently in the process of separating [myself from] my anger," which isn't right--Annie has already made the separation; now she is maintaining it. It's a completed action with continuing effects. In this instance, the focus is less on the action and more on the effects.
Panel 4 (Ysengrin)
Ouk enomisa se poiēsein... kata gramma.
I did not suppose you would do [it]... according to [the] letter.
I don't think there's any way to tell someone that they are literal in Koine Greek. But κατὰ γράμμα (kata gramma), "according to the letter," is an idiom I'm familiar with, so I rearranged the rest of the sentence to work with that.
Panel 5 (Annie)
Epoiēsa eis to hypopherein me.
I did [it] for me to [continue to] bear up.
This one gave me fits. "Manage" is such an odd usage in English; I couldn't think of an equivalent verb, especially one that would take a direct object (as seen in Ysengrin's response, "Manage what?"). I had to think how else I might describe Annie's situation before I came up with ὑποφέρω (hypopherō), "to endure, bear up under [something]." It seemed appropriate: Anthony's return is like a heavy weight that Annie has to carry around and try to stand up under.
Next problem: the verb for "help," βοηθέω (boētheō), always seems to have a person as the subject: you can say "he helps me" or "she helps me," but I never found an occurrence of "it helps me." Eventually, I settled on leaving "help" out entirely and using an infinitive construction with εἰς (eis) indicating purpose/result: "I did this for the purpose and with the result of me bearing up." I think ἐποίησα (epoiēsa), "I did [it]," could have been kept implicit and left out, but I left it in to make the connection easier to understand.
The present infinitive ὑποφέρειν (hypopherein) implies a continuous action, which is appropriate for the verb "to endure."
Panel 6 (Ysengrin)
Hypopherein?
To bear up?
See discussion above. In the end, I thought it was enough for him to echo Annie's word. This way, I didn't have to figure out whether that verb takes a direct object, or how to inflect the verb for a full sentence, or whether question words in Greek can come after the verb ("Manage what?" instead of "What are you managing?"), etc. etc. Also, there wasn't much space in the speech bubble.
Panel 7 (Annie)
Ho patēr mou... hypestrepsen.
My father... returned.
I so badly wanted to use the perfect tense again here! It would fit, um, perfectly: Anthony's return is a completed action that definitely has ongoing effects. Unfortunately,
- it seems that ὑποστρέφω (hypostrephō), "to return," isn't used in the perfect tense;
- and furthermore, even if it were, I believe the form for "he has returned" would be ὑπέστρεφεν (hypestrephen)--which would be indistinguishable from the imperfect tense form "he was returning"!
So I had to settle for the simple past tense "he returned." Siiiigh.
Panel 8 (Ysengrin)
Kai?
And?
Same as Keef's Dutch translation, actually. It works well in Greek too.
If by chance there's anyone here who knows Ancient Greek (Koine or earlier, although this was specifically Koine), I'd love to hear what you think. I'm certainly no expert, and I'm sure the translation could be a lot better.
-- the form you want is νεῖται (final epsilon of the root contracts with thematic vowel epsilon of the third sg. pres. ind. mediopassive; final ai is short, thus the contraction can and must bear the circumflex -- you will know this, of course, but perhaps some readers with a general interest in languages might find delight in the delicacy of Greek conjugation). It is, however, quite possibly no longer used in Koine Greek.