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Post by hp on Feb 6, 2017 13:47:26 GMT
TOLDJA
cue the shadow men
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Post by CoyoteReborn on Feb 6, 2017 14:32:32 GMT
hehehe
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Post by ctso74 on Feb 6, 2017 14:40:54 GMT
Coy Boy's motivations and plans are inscrutable. Though, I doubt his smile is about him throwing the Annan Pool Party, that he's been planning forever.
Shadowmen have crossed before (perhaps, without anyone motivating them to), and Coyote has crossed the bridge and knocked over buildings, not too long ago. Unless "crossing the river" circumvents a promise he made, I don't see him gaining much.
A thing that comes to mind is, a door blocks both ways. Maybe, it's less about the Forest crossing the river, and more about someone (or something) at the Court secretly crossing.
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Post by Daedalus on Feb 6, 2017 14:55:18 GMT
Remember, Tom's previously said that Coyote was not aware of Jeanne's existence. It's possible that he simply senses something has changed, but I do NOT think that he's been manipulating this whole situation.
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Post by atteSmythe on Feb 6, 2017 15:22:27 GMT
He doesn't know of Jeanne, but he does know that "the court did something to the river." 491 |
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Post by Per on Feb 6, 2017 15:37:56 GMT
A couple of days ago, I almost predicted this closing page in response to people saying things like "if Ghost Jeanne turns out to have mattered to the Court-Forest balance I will stop reading the comic". I would have had Coyote walking in the forest, coming to the ravine, sniffing, and then saying "Aha!" But then I didn't because it might have been trolly.
I could have had... so many cookies... so many... *sob*
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Post by fish on Feb 6, 2017 15:47:06 GMT
A couple of days ago, I almost predicted this closing page in response to people saying things like "if Ghost Jeanne turns out to have mattered to the Court-Forest balance I will stop reading the comic". I would have had Coyote walking in the forest, coming to the ravine, sniffing, and then saying "Aha!" But then I didn't because it might have been trolly. I could have had... so many cookies... so many... *sob* I know that pain. There, there. Also, people saying "If XY happens I will stop reading the comic" are positively annoying. |
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Post by intotheether on Feb 6, 2017 16:05:43 GMT
Clearly the psychopomps manipulating Annie to accept their terms was a seed planted by Coyote. Now they get their guide, and the trickster of the forest has neutralized the Court's most fearsome advantage against him- the power of spankies. |
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Post by hp on Feb 6, 2017 16:33:37 GMT
Shadowmen have crossed before (perhaps, without anyone motivating them to), and Coyote has crossed the bridge and knocked over buildings, not too long ago. Unless "crossing the river" circumvents a promise he made, I don't see him gaining much. My guess on shadow men is due to Coyote's promise to "leave the Court side alone". He'll not do anything directly |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Feb 6, 2017 16:39:32 GMT
A couple of days ago, I almost predicted this closing page in response to people saying things like "if Ghost Jeanne turns out to have mattered to the Court-Forest balance I will stop reading the comic". I would have had Coyote walking in the forest, coming to the ravine, sniffing, and then saying "Aha!" But then I didn't because it might have been trolly. Since you mention it, Jeanne's situation has been one of the most controversial topics on the forum. There have been more posts and more animated posts about other topics but that's the only discussion that I can recall a long-time forum goer rage-quitting over. |
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Post by fia on Feb 6, 2017 16:44:38 GMT
My first thought was, "Ruh roh."
My second and third thoughts are all a lot more complicated. Mostly I keep coming back to the line Anthony says about being worried Annie would get kicked out of "the program".
Is the Court actually protecting some supernatural humans from the world? Why is Coyote trying to bring the Court down? Who started it? What is the Court's ether superweapon aimed at???
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Post by arkadi on Feb 6, 2017 18:26:28 GMT
Coyote is totally fine with this situation.
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Post by aline on Feb 6, 2017 19:08:30 GMT
Coy Boy's motivations and plans are inscrutable. Though, I doubt his smile is about him throwing the Annan Pool Party, that he's been planning forever. Shadowmen have crossed before (perhaps, without anyone motivating them to), and Coyote has crossed the bridge and knocked over buildings, not too long ago. Unless "crossing the river" circumvents a promise he made, I don't see him gaining much. A thing that comes to mind is, a door blocks both ways. Maybe, it's less about the Forest crossing the river, and more about someone (or something) at the Court secretly crossing. I've also been thinking that. Maybe there is something, or someone, Coyote would like to get, that suddenly seems more accessible. Maybe he wants the omega thing. Maybe he wants Renard. Maybe he's just beginning to reveal in the possibilities of a gone barrier and hasn't worked out yet how exactly he'll use it to cause mischief and other shenanigans.
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Post by freeformline on Feb 6, 2017 19:24:51 GMT
Before everyone rushes to condemn Annie and Co.'s action in light of this page, let's remember that trapping two people in a state of life-in-death as barriers that they had not volunteered for or consented to is still wrong (all the more so when one of the trappers, at least, had selfish and ignoble motives). I think that Annie and the others had a moral duty to set Jeanne and her boy-friend free; letting them stay after knowing about the Founders' act would have made them accessories. Maybe trouble will come from this; doing the right thing doesn't necessarily mean completely happy results. (I'm thinking now of stories where somebody refuses to kill a helpless person, even when the person's also an unpleasant character - particularly out of a wish not to become a murderer - and the person whom he spares later does horrible things - say, Bilbo sparing Gollum in "The Hobbit", with the result that Gollum years later will tell Sauron that "Baggins" has the Ring.) But some things matter more than mere earthly prosperity. Hey now, just because the continuation of something is wrong doesn't mean undoing it is the most ethical thing to do, especially if you don't take any action to investigate whether or not undoing it will have severe consequences. I agree that they should have set Jeanne free, but I think they should have done a little more investigation before doing it. They already knew that several of the people involved in sealing Jeanne and her lover thought they were doing the right thing, but they didn't seem to account for that when releasing her, and now they are likely going to be seeing some regrettable side-effects, the nature of which may reveal their lack of investigation to be an immoral negligence. On a different note, I expect mischief or malice will be crossing the river in the form of Ysengrin's friends that we saw back in chapter 44. |
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Post by linkzeldi on Feb 6, 2017 19:24:57 GMT
I knew Coyote's plans had to do with undoing whatever binding the court placed there in order to separate the court and the forest.
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Post by boxbot1 on Feb 6, 2017 20:01:21 GMT
Huh, despite all my rhetoric about the forest invading the court all the psychopomp shenanigans had made me forget about that and, until I read this thread, thought Coyote was smiling about Annie accepting the offer. This is not good, this is not good at all. Time for Kat to become Hero Of The Court while Annie is busy with psychopomp duties? hmmm, now that you mention it, it *is* easier to smell the presence something (all the pomps + the gang) than the lack of something (ghost Jeanne... do ghosts even *have* a smell?) maybe, just maybe, he *is* reacting to the pomping of Annie (inferred from the presence of so many pomps, plus our favorite fire-head) rather than the lack of an Annan animal control officer. But probably not.... Maybe Jeanne's presence was blocking the smell of the court and Coyote can finally smell it fully again |
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Post by jda on Feb 6, 2017 20:01:38 GMT
"Friends", What a Nice word for them. "Army of deranged human-haters" would Be my words of choice |
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Post by Runningflame on Feb 6, 2017 20:54:52 GMT
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! This guy! To everyone who's freaking out: we have no idea what this means, because we have no idea what Coyote really wants. We don't know that he wants to invade/destroy the Court. We don't know that he doesn't want to. For all we know, he might be grinning because a bunch of stuff has just changed and some kind of chaos is bound to ensue. He grins about everything, from Andrew being chosen as the Court medium to Ysengrin's impending attack on Annie. I admit it's probably not a good sign, but really we'll just have to wait and see, won't we? Maybe Jeanne's presence was blocking the smell of the court and Coyote can finally smell it fully again If that were the case, I don't think he'd be grinning.  |
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Post by fia on Feb 6, 2017 23:25:40 GMT
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! This guy! To everyone who's freaking out: we have no idea what this means, because we have no idea what Coyote really wants. We don't know that he wants to invade/destroy the Court. We don't know that he doesn't want to. For all we know, he might be grinning because a bunch of stuff has just changed and some kind of chaos is bound to ensue. He grins about everything, from Andrew being chosen as the Court medium to Ysengrin's impending attack on Annie. I admit it's probably not a good sign, but really we'll just have to wait and see, won't we? Yes. But now that you mention it, I remember Coyote referring to Muut having "a hell of a poker face". It sounded like a throwaway line at the time, but now I suspect they may be in cahoots, and that Muut gave the blinker stone to Mort to give to Annie because of Coyote. In fact I have suspected they may have been collaborating for a while, since they are both Native American gods (albeit from different cultures) and the only other beings so far to clearly come from the same pantheon are Renard and Ysengrin. The only bit left to be explained is why Coyote seemed not to know of Surma's death. But he's a pathological liar so anything he asserts can be doubted.. |
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Post by mturtle7 on Feb 6, 2017 23:40:15 GMT
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Post by fish on Feb 7, 2017 2:34:06 GMT
Cue a horde of shadow people swarming down the cliff, across the waters and up the other cliff. A horde so dense, it looks like a wave of solid black, like the one at the end of chapter 1.
Hah, man, I hope we do get one or two chapters of respite, before Coyote makes his move. A celebration for a "job well done" at least?
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Post by Zox Tomana on Feb 7, 2017 3:09:49 GMT
Gotta second this. Coyote, no matter his tricksterness, has not yet lied to anyone. Withhold the truth? Certainly? Even Ysengrin (whose memories he is manipulating) he has not, as far as I'm aware, technically lied to. Why didn't Coyote know Surma died? No one told him. And when he saw Antimony, note, he first thought SHE WAS Surma. This whole Fire Spirit thing Annie has going on threw the Great Coyote for a loop. |
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ST13R
Full Member
Quiet little mouse
Posts: 171
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Post by ST13R on Feb 7, 2017 11:14:22 GMT
Coyote saying "you shouldn't trust anyone in the court", while being 'in the court' at that time. Sneaky, Coyote. Sneaky. |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Feb 7, 2017 11:31:44 GMT
Gotta second this. Coyote, no matter his tricksterness, has not yet lied to anyone. Withhold the truth? Certainly? Even Ysengrin (whose memories he is manipulating) he has not, as far as I'm aware, technically lied to. Why didn't Coyote know Surma died? No one told him. And when he saw Antimony, note, he first thought SHE WAS Surma. This whole Fire Spirit thing Annie has going on threw the Great Coyote for a loop. if Coyote just sees the fire elemental, then Annie and Surma would appear to be the same being. I think Coyote does see their human half, but in that first moment I think Coyote reacted to seeng the elemental half and then did a bit of a double take when he realized the human half was different. |
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Post by Aurelia Verity on Feb 7, 2017 15:07:12 GMT
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! This guy! To everyone who's freaking out: we have no idea what this means, because we have no idea what Coyote really wants. We don't know that he wants to invade/destroy the Court. We don't know that he doesn't want to. For all we know, he might be grinning because a bunch of stuff has just changed and some kind of chaos is bound to ensue. He grins about everything, from Andrew being chosen as the Court medium to Ysengrin's impending attack on Annie. I admit it's probably not a good sign, but really we'll just have to wait and see, won't we? THIS. Coyote is not Tyrion Lannister or Saruman, he's not a figure micromanaging people's actions and reactions to get the specific result he wanted. He is a god. People are nothing to him, little blips, almost as soon as he registers one they are gone. He liked Surma well enough it would seem but her death didn't even register with him. If he has a long term plan for the court it must be a loooooooooong term plan from a human perspective. This is all just tickles for him. For him any change is good because more fun can be extracted from it. Like Jack Sparrow or Heath Ledger's Joker i think you are never meant to know if he "he plans it all out, or just makes it up as he goes along", that's what makes him scary. He is scary not because he is malevolent, but because he is an unpredictable narcissist you can't reason with. He's probably smelling a change in the air and thinking "Oh goody, something is different, i can play with this, i can make all the silly humans run around. SUCH FUN!" |
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Post by warrl on Feb 7, 2017 17:34:16 GMT
My first thought was, "Ruh roh." My second and third thoughts are all a lot more complicated. Mostly I keep coming back to the line Anthony says about being worried Annie would get kicked out of "the program". Is the Court actually protecting some supernatural humans from the world? Why is Coyote trying to bring the Court down? Who started it? What is the Court's ether superweapon aimed at??? According to Coyote (and Jones says he doesn't lie) the Court and Forest were nearly at war when he arrived, and he stepped in to prevent war. The Annan Waters were part of his means of doing so. Now let's look at the tactical situation that existed immediately after that act. The Court has ranged weapons. The Forest has not been shown to have any. It's easier to attack across a chasm with ranged weapons. You can even use ranged weapons to create a space that's relatively secure for other forces who are, say, climbing up a cliff. The Court has buildings practically at the edge. It can assemble forces there inconspicuously. If aggressive Forest folk start massing near the river, they are at huge risk of being seen - which would warn the court. In other words, the arrangement Coyote created clearly favors the Court over the Forest. So why is there a belief that Coyote is trying to bring down the Court? |
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Post by keef on Feb 7, 2017 17:59:05 GMT
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! This guy! To everyone who's freaking out: we have no idea what this means, because we have no idea what Coyote really wants. We don't know that he wants to invade/destroy the Court. We don't know that he doesn't want to. For all we know, he might be grinning because a bunch of stuff has just changed and some kind of chaos is bound to ensue. He grins about everything, from Andrew being chosen as the Court medium to Ysengrin's impending attack on Annie. I admit it's probably not a good sign, but really we'll just have to wait and see, won't we? THIS. Coyote is not Tyrion Lannister or Saruman, he's not a figure micromanaging people's actions and reactions to get the specific result he wanted. He is a god. People are nothing to him, little blips, almost as soon as he registers one they are gone. He liked Surma well enough it would seem but her death didn't even register with him. If he has a long term plan for the court it must be a loooooooooong term plan from a human perspective. This is all just tickles for him. For him any change is good because more fun can be extracted from it. Like Jack Sparrow or Heath Ledger's Joker i think you are never meant to know if he "he plans it all out, or just makes it up as he goes along", that's what makes him scary. He is scary not because he is malevolent, but because he is an unpredictable narcissist you can't reason with. He's probably smelling a change in the air and thinking "Oh goody, something is different, i can play with this, i can make all the silly humans run around. SUCH FUN!" It has been discussed here before, and is in my opinion one of the most interesting things about this comic; Tom Siddell does not play the Heroes and Villains game. To quote the Man Himself (nine years ago): I made a userbar with a part of this quote, linking to the interview where he said this, it's on archive.org, so it takes some time to load:  |
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Post by fia on Feb 7, 2017 19:53:27 GMT
Gotta second this. Coyote, no matter his tricksterness, has not yet lied to anyone. Withhold the truth? Certainly? Even Ysengrin (whose memories he is manipulating) he has not, as far as I'm aware, technically lied to. Why didn't Coyote know Surma died? No one told him. And when he saw Antimony, note, he first thought SHE WAS Surma. This whole Fire Spirit thing Annie has going on threw the Great Coyote for a loop. OK, that's fair. But we still have to grant he is a manipulator, and perhaps a pathological deceiver. It may be that HE sees nothing wrong with whatever he is doing (as per Word of Tom above), but my concerns are about whether his actions will help or harm our heroes and/or their extended network. Like the psychopomps, who may mean Annie no ill, Coyote could do some serious damage. Also, he has his tooth in the Court. He may now be able to use it in ways he couldn't before. And before we get too complacent about Coyote --- it was the Shadow Men attempting to invade the Court in one one o' Ysengrin's tree-wolves, as well as one of Coyote's shadow-men trying to snatch Renard back. This end-o-chapter grin can and should not be taken as mere lighthearted fun, imho. |
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Post by Runningflame on Feb 7, 2017 21:06:09 GMT
And before we get too complacent about Coyote --- it was the Shadow Men attempting to invade the Court in one one o' Ysengrin's tree-wolves, as well as one of Coyote's shadow-men trying to snatch Renard back. This end-o-chapter grin can and should not be taken as mere lighthearted fun, imho. You know, this just raises more questions for me. Do we really understand what the forest folk's agenda(s) is/are? - The Shadow Men: When we first met Shadow 2, he wanted to escape from the Court back to the forest. For some reason, he afterward changed his mind and wanted to come back with Annie, but I don't think he ever said why. His forebears came over on those tree-dogs: one of them was destroyed and the shadows stayed in the Court (oddly enough, the court protector either didn't notice them or didn't think they were important); but the other one seems to have escaped back to the forest. The Shadow Man who possessed Robot was apparently acting on Coyote and/or Ysengrin's orders, with the intent of getting Renard back--not necessarily anything more than that.
- Coyote and Ysengrin: Hard to say. Ysengrin does drop these seeds, which seems like an attempt at infiltration--except it is fairly obvious. Coyote apparently stopped an impending war between Court and Forest. (This background probably explains Ysengrin's title of General, as well as how he lost his ear.) Coyote tells us that Ysengrin hates humans. But there's no reliable indicator of which side was the offense and which side was the defense. If I had to guess, I'd say the Court was the offense--anyway, that's what Coyote implies.
- Everyone else: Some residents of the forest want to become human and join the Court. They don't seem to be plotting anything once they get there. Red and <snuffle>'s friend are not very favorably impressed by the Court--hard to imagine that their ilk would want to invade it. The Anwyn and their folk are idly curious about life in the Court. The inhabitants of Fun City (whom, incidentally, Ysengrin considers separate from "people of the forest") despise humans, but we have no indication they want to invade anywhere. (If the page note is canon and they are "Ysengrin's army," they could still be a defensive force.) This "wisp" tries to trick Annie into taking it to the Court, but we have no idea what its agenda was. At any rate, Coyote did not approve.
(Incidentally: I'm not so sure that we can call it one of Ysengrin's tree-wolves. We know that Ys got his tree powers from Coyote. Also, the fact that the Headmaster, Jones, and Renard are all surprised by his appearance in The Fangs of Summer would seem to indicate that this gift was given rather recently. It seems likely to me that Ysengrin did not have tree powers back in Ties, which took place well before Surma became the Court medium and Renard left the forest. So we're left to conclude either that the shadows have some tree powers, or that Coyote made the tree-dogs.) |
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Post by todd on Feb 8, 2017 0:29:42 GMT
He did; the other shadow-people disowned him for thinking that there was some good in the Court and not joining them in hating it. |
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