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Post by todd on Oct 14, 2016 12:43:55 GMT
I still think that in their eagerness to free the unjustly imprisoned Jeanne everyone is overlooking WHY the court decided to trap Jeanne down there. I get the feeling that when/if they free her, there is going to reveal some other terrible danger that her presence was holding back. [/quote] The fact that the Court had reasons to trap Jeanne and her lover doesn't change the fact that it was wrong. There have to be other ways of solving such problems than double murder and imprisoning the sols of the murder victims. |
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Post by todd on Oct 14, 2016 12:47:06 GMT
Blue not being killed after all - whether it's a cop-out or not - is probably a good thing for the story. As people have pointed out, her death would mean the Court administration will have to find out what Annie and her friends would be up to, and its punishment would be likely severe - so severe that Annie, Kat, and the rest would be unlikely to have the opportunity to have any more adventures, making it almost impossible to continue the story (short of having to frantically promote some bit characters into the new leads). Blue living means that that threat to the comic's long-term future has been averted.
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Post by philistine21 on Oct 14, 2016 12:52:17 GMT
Is anyone else worried that Red called out exactly how Jeanne missed? Nothing will probably come of it, but saying "Wow it's a good thing you didn't stab a few feet lower, murder ghost" is probably not a good idea when the murder ghost is still standing right in front of you.
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gary
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Post by gary on Oct 14, 2016 13:03:17 GMT
The fact that the Court had reasons to trap Jeanne and her lover doesn't change the fact that it was wrong. There have to be other ways of solving such problems than double murder and imprisoning the sols of the murder victims. Way more than double murder. Jeanne has killed hundreds of people. The death toll of freeing her will have to be really high before it outweighs the death toll of not freeing her. |
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Post by saardvark on Oct 14, 2016 13:22:19 GMT
Is anyone else worried that Red called out exactly how Jeanne missed? Nothing will probably come of it, but saying "Wow it's a good thing you didn't stab a few feet lower, murder ghost" is probably not a good idea when the murder ghost is still standing right in front of you. unless... can beings trapped in illusion-land hear sounds in the real world? Jeanne presumably could not hear Kat and Annie motoring off across the Annan waters... and outboard motors are not very quiet. |
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Post by ctso74 on Oct 14, 2016 13:24:32 GMT
Back to the pants-pissing status quo for the Shore Team. Though, their current situation is more frightening than before. With heat turned up, we may see some Bip fighting from George, next. Hopefully, with more Jeanne exposition. The illusion's effect seems to still have her tongue a little loose.
I wonder how Annie is doing?
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Shire
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Post by Shire on Oct 14, 2016 13:40:31 GMT
On the one hand: YAY! Nobody died! On the other hand: BOOO!! Cop-out! It would've been a cop-out if it was all played off as part of the plan. Like, "Great acting, Red! She totally fell for it!" As it was, Red was genuinely afraid that Blue had been stabbed, so her terrified face last page (the terrified-est face!) was earned. |
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Post by fish on Oct 14, 2016 14:48:28 GMT
That actually raises a question I've been wondering about for some time: What really happened between these two pages? Jeanne is there in one moment but is gone in the next. More to the point, she left a wound on Annie and the suicide fairies saw it; was that meeting entirely in the ether? My best guess at the moment is that Annie managed to enter the ether while asleep, and for some reason Jeanne could cross the Annan while there, but her ghost body had to stay on the other side. The question is then why Annie changed position of her physical body while in the ether. along those lines, why did Jeanne just nick Annie's face, leaving a small memento mark? A test to see if she was a living (bleeding) creature? I know Kat shows up with the bright-light hovership, but with Jeanne's speed, she could have easily ended Annie right there in no time. Why no rage mode attack? My head canon for this (until further evidence) is Annie's "attractiveness" to etheric beings which Mort pointed waaay back when. Jeanne wasn't even supposed to be on the Forest side of the river but she came over, breaking the rules of her prison, to give Annie a scar. Maybe this was Jeanne's silent cry for help from this strange girl. And maybe the scar will fade away once Jeanne is free? |
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Post by saardvark on Oct 14, 2016 15:23:40 GMT
along those lines, why did Jeanne just nick Annie's face, leaving a small memento mark? A test to see if she was a living (bleeding) creature? I know Kat shows up with the bright-light hovership, but with Jeanne's speed, she could have easily ended Annie right there in no time. Why no rage mode attack? My head canon for this (until further evidence) is Annie's "attractiveness" to etheric beings which Mort pointed waaay back when. Jeanne wasn't even supposed to be on the Forest side of the river but she came over, breaking the rules of her prison, to give Annie a scar. Maybe this was Jeanne's silent cry for help from this strange girl. And maybe the scar will fade away once Jeanne is free? this makes a lot of sense 2 me. and the "silent cry" idea supports the idea that ghost Jeanne is quite a bit more than just a "rage-golem"... the mind and heart of the living Jeanne are still there at some level, buried under centuries of fury. |
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Post by warrl on Oct 14, 2016 16:27:34 GMT
...thinking about it, has Jeanne ever interacted with someone's physical body? All the encounters thus far has been in the ether from what I remember. Some of the recorded scenes from ROTD may have been physical. Jeanne also sliced a few flying drone cameras in two. Definitely physical. ghost Jeanne is quite a bit more than just a "rage-golem"... the mind and heart of the living Jeanne are still there at some level, buried under centuries of fury. We already knew that she remembers and recognizes love, and deliberately held back in the earlier fight with Parley. |
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Post by ohthatone on Oct 14, 2016 16:37:03 GMT
I'm with bedinsis, Daedalus and haspen on this. I'm kinda fond of the blue fool, too, but this seems cheap - and makes Jeanne seem "not very scary".
I dunno, she's an unharmable ghost so lightning fast that even the teleporter can't keep up and has no qualms about stabbing you through the face. I think she's still pretty damn scary.
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Post by nero on Oct 14, 2016 17:19:45 GMT
Glad nothing happened to Blue but there's still time for something to go wrong. There is whatever Kat doesn't want to use, Parley facing Jeanne, and the rest staying out of the way.
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Post by saardvark on Oct 14, 2016 17:56:53 GMT
ghost Jeanne is quite a bit more than just a "rage-golem"... the mind and heart of the living Jeanne are still there at some level, buried under centuries of fury. We already knew that she remembers and recognizes love, and deliberately held back in the earlier fight with Parley. Exactly. I get the feeling that Tom is building up to the gang being able to reason/reach her at some level, and this gets resolved without excessive death and destruction. |
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wlerin
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Post by wlerin on Oct 14, 2016 19:16:31 GMT
Glad nothing happened to Blue... I wouldn't be so sure. Annie still has a scar from when Jeanne sliced her etheric form, and while Blue's expression in the last panel is somewhat heartening she still hasn't spoken. |
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Post by Zox Tomana on Oct 14, 2016 20:06:15 GMT
On the one hand: YAY! Nobody died! On the other hand: BOOO!! Cop-out! It would've been a cop-out if it was all played off as part of the plan. Like, "Great acting, Red! She totally fell for it!" As it was, Red was genuinely afraid that Blue had been stabbed, so her terrified face last page (the terrified-est face!) was earned. That, and if not for Tom having given us more than one view (and that last one being a nice, big overview) of the fact of her being kneeling in reality even if "walking" in the ether. My bet? Red and Blue will go back into the ether at some point and Blue may have this big ol' mark on her face from being ether-stabbed, just like the cut on Annie's cheek. |
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Post by ohthatone on Oct 14, 2016 20:11:38 GMT
So I was re-reading the chapter Annie meets Red and blue and noticed the fairies asked Annie for help with their test, but not Jeanne, who would have had no problem with the request. They were even afraid of her when she appeared on the shore with them and Annie. I wonder if Jeanne ending the fairies' lives would mess up the ritual somehow.
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Post by Tenjen on Oct 14, 2016 21:08:22 GMT
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Post by Eisenblume on Oct 14, 2016 21:17:06 GMT
Thank God for Smitty being there, I say. Powers of order seems to be really handy.
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Post by zbeeblebrox on Oct 14, 2016 21:17:20 GMT
I'm with bedinsis (and Daedalus) on this  I'm with bedinsis, Daedalus and haspen on this. I'm kinda fond of the blue fool, too, but this seems cheap - and makes Jeanne seem "not very scary". You guys really don't remember the chapter where blue did pretty much exactly this and even made everyone think she was dead? www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=989Either that or you don't know what "copout" means ;p |
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Post by djublonskopf on Oct 14, 2016 21:23:42 GMT
So I was re-reading the chapter Annie meets Red and blue and noticed the fairies asked Annie for help with their test, but not Jeanne, who would have had no problem with the request. They were even afraid of her when she appeared on the shore with them and Annie. I wonder if Jeanne ending the fairies' lives would mess up the ritual somehow. I didn't read it as "fear" so much as "surprise", in that Jeanne wasn't supposed to be able to cross the river at all, and was unexpectedly on top of them and threatening Annie (who wasn't trying to die). Had Jeanne showed up less menacingly, I suspect they would have happily asked for help. |
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Post by Eversist on Oct 14, 2016 22:49:00 GMT
So, question for those of you calling this a "cop out;" how specifically are you using that turn of phrase? I knew the basic implication of the phrase, but went ahead and looked it up: "Avoid doing something that one ought to do." "An instance of avoiding a commitment or responsibility." Do you mean something else? Am I missing the nuance? Or are you guys are saying that a death at Jeanne's hand is necessary for the story, or it is Tom's responsibility? I'm guessing to show how dangerous Jeanne is, and to give the situation gravity? She could still kill someone. We ain't out of the woods yet. And we still don't know what shape Robot is in, for that matter (although like someone mentioned before, killing him off would hinder the robo-cult plot line). Just seems a tad harsh. Phew. And now, I can see, on the previous page, ghost Jeanne's looking down for some reason  Seen a couple people saying this; her head is angled down in the panel before, with her looking upward. We don't have pupils to go on with ghost-Jeanne, but I feel like it's pretty obvious she didn't notice them down there until this page. Many people pointed this out in the previous thread. My bet? Red and Blue will go back into the ether at some point and Blue may have this big ol' mark on her face from being ether-stabbed, just like the cut on Annie's cheek. That's an interesting thought. I wonder though, that since Annie and ether Annie were effectively in the same place when Jeanne sliced her cheek, that's why it caused permanent damage? This whole chapter is raising so many questions.  I wonder if Tom has this all sussed out. |
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Post by Zox Tomana on Oct 14, 2016 23:16:01 GMT
My bet? Red and Blue will go back into the ether at some point and Blue may have this big ol' mark on her face from being ether-stabbed, just like the cut on Annie's cheek. That's an interesting thought. I wonder though, that since Annie and ether Annie were effectively in the same place when Jeanne sliced her cheek, that's why it caused permanent damage? This whole chapter is raising so many questions. I wonder if Tom has this all sussed out. Mmmm. That whole sequence has a lot of questions around it. Did Jeanne actually cross the Annan Waters? Why simply cut Annie's cheek instead of run her through? Why wait so long to attack? Why disappear when Kat shows up? If Jeanne's physical body had not been shown to be long rotted, I'd say that Jeanne had projected herself across the water, and that the swipe to the cheek was to see the kind of effect she might have. I feel like that scene may have somehow taken place in the Ether. Like Annie may have subconsciously tapped into the Blinker Stone while sleeping, and Kat's arrival didn't so much banish Jeanne as wake Annie up and draw her out of the Ether. But... can ghosts Ether-project? The sword Jeanne is using is not really a physical weapon insomuch as it is not made of steel. There are definitely a lot of questions to ask, and I hope we get answers to them rather than a retcon. |
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Post by KMar on Oct 14, 2016 23:24:22 GMT
It's magic, by definition it does not be coherent as long as it makes sense. Somehow.
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Post by puntino on Oct 14, 2016 23:37:40 GMT
Thank God Smitty is there with them.
He's probably the next target, after Jeanne recollects herself and thinks for a few seconds. She seems to be extremely observant of her surroundings, so noticing that there is some dude pretty much doing absolutely nothing could strike her as suspicious enough.
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Post by saardvark on Oct 15, 2016 2:25:20 GMT
Thank God Smitty is there with them. He's probably the next target, after Jeanne recollects herself and thinks for a few seconds. She seems to be extremely observant of her surroundings, so noticing that there is some dude pretty much doing absolutely nothing could strike her as suspicious enough. its not obvious that Smitty is "written into" Blue's illusion, so she may not be able to see him there. He and Kat were both in Jeanne's line of sight (in reality, pp1705-6) and yet I don't see obvious parallel characters in the illusion. I think Blue can control what gets seen in the basic setup of the illusion to a significant extent. |
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Post by bedinsis on Oct 15, 2016 12:34:54 GMT
So, question for those of you calling this a "cop out;" how specifically are you using that turn of phrase? I knew the basic implication of the phrase, but went ahead and looked it up: "Avoid doing something that one ought to do." "An instance of avoiding a commitment or responsibility." Do you mean something else? Am I missing the nuance? Or are you guys are saying that a death at Jeanne's hand is necessary for the story, or it is Tom's responsibility? I'm guessing to show how dangerous Jeanne is, and to give the situation gravity? What I refer to is that we got a full page showing the impact of Jeanne stabbing Red's friend in the face meant to emotionally emphasize the content of that page only to have this page reveal that that we've been tricked. Failing to commit to a plot point already submitted. Of course as has been pointed out there already was a way out through earlier established facts, but at the rate these pages come out I don't remember all of them. |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Oct 15, 2016 15:58:16 GMT
So, question for those of you calling this a "cop out;" how specifically are you using that turn of phrase? I knew the basic implication of the phrase, but went ahead and looked it up: "Avoid doing something that one ought to do." "An instance of avoiding a commitment or responsibility." Do you mean something else? Am I missing the nuance? Or are you guys are saying that a death at Jeanne's hand is necessary for the story, or it is Tom's responsibility? I'm guessing to show how dangerous Jeanne is, and to give the situation gravity? What I refer to is that we got a full page showing the impact of Jeanne stabbing Red's friend in the face meant to emotionally emphasize the content of that page only to have this page reveal that that we've been tricked. Failing to commit to a plot point already submitted. Of course as has been pointed out there already was a way out through earlier established facts, but at the rate these pages come out I don't remember all of them. The experience we have reading the comic as it is serially released makes us concentrate on each individual page. I don't think archival reading will present this challenge because resolutions are presented quickly. I have commented before that Tom seems to be using a more cinematic style (more imagery less text). I really like it, but it also takes multiple pages to present a plot point and it almost feels like a weekly update rate. |
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haspen
Full Member
Hat Kat
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Post by haspen on Oct 15, 2016 21:29:52 GMT
If it makes all the cop-out people happier, Red and Blue are now scared, unarmed, and vulnerable on the ground in front of Jeanne. Like one of my buddies somewhere else wrote: "Oh you were kneeling *stab stab*" |
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Post by Daedalus on Oct 16, 2016 3:49:26 GMT
So, question for those of you calling this a "cop out;" how specifically are you using that turn of phrase? I knew the basic implication of the phrase, but went ahead and looked it up: "Avoid doing something that one ought to do." "An instance of avoiding a commitment or responsibility." Do you mean something else? Am I missing the nuance? Or are you guys are saying that a death at Jeanne's hand is necessary for the story, or it is Tom's responsibility? I'm guessing to show how dangerous Jeanne is, and to give the situation gravity? What I refer to is that we got a full page showing the impact of Jeanne stabbing Red's friend in the face meant to emotionally emphasize the content of that page only to have this page reveal that that we've been tricked. Failing to commit to a plot point already submitted. Of course as has been pointed out there already was a way out through earlier established facts, but at the rate these pages come out I don't remember all of them. Let's talk about the progression of the story for a minute. I really did jump to conclusions too fast last page, haha. I got too into the story. I should have had more faith in Mr. Siddell's capability to surprise by now. But in answer to your concerns about whether this was a cop-out, I somewhat agree. Since we're reading it page-by-page, the emotional impact from the previous page was very strong (i.e. "holy SHIT she just got impaled"). And then the most recent page entirely subverts it by saying "Haha, just messing with you, she's totally alive". This is frustrating because we spent a full two days with the thought that Blue had taken a sword to the face - it feels a little manipulative towards the reader (though that is obviously unfair to Tom). (Although if I was reading the book version of GKC, the transition would be a little less abrupt.) There is probably a deus ex machina in the next few pages, to prevent Blue and Red from getting stabbed in the face again (but IRL this time). The mitigating factors here (i.e. why I'm not too frustrated) are 1) the fact that they were kneeling was previously presented, 2) this will probably give Parley time to save them somehow, and 3) Kat is already established to have a back-up plan involving some kind of green energy. |
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Post by Daedalus on Oct 16, 2016 3:53:06 GMT
But returning to discussion of current in-story events, a question for the community. A while ago, I said this: I wonder why Jeanne has so much of a problem with the Fae. She dated one of the Anwyn, after all. Does the arrow warp her mind into the "ideal model" from the Court's perspective? If so, Diego is even more despicable than we thought. At the time people answered that she was just frustrated that she'd been tricked. However, now we know that Jeanne's response to a Fae trick is a sword to the Fae's face. Why is that? Is she now just an embodied spirit of hatred, who responds to every situation with violence? Or did Diego and the Founders imprint some trace of their own hatred into her mind when they trapped her with the Green Arrow? Also, the other thing that I just noticed is that this is the first time Jeanne has spoken outside of the ether. I wonder if she could speak before, or whether this the illusion finally allowed her to communicate. If so, perhaps there can be a peaceful resolution (though I will admit I find this doubtful). |
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I wonder if Tom has this all sussed out.
