Wild Speculation

[ravenswd]

This isn't a wild speculation so much as a question (which may lead to wild speculation, so it's still on-topic).

What would win in a fight, Jones or Coyote's tooth-sword?

[keeana]

Feb 27, 2013 14:23:09 GMT aaroncampbell said:

So I wonder when Kat will become the ambassador for the robots? (Somehow medium just doesn't seem the right word.) I mean yes, they work for the Court and all, but it sure looks like the partnership is becoming more unstable and uneasy, or at least great potential is there...

I think as Kat's fame spreads, more and more of the robots will come to her side until she becomes their ambassador almost by default. That being said, what I want to know is: she's now under the protection of the Seraphs as of page 1146. What do they think she needs protection from?

Additionally. (I don't know if this has been brought up by anyone, but I don't remember so.) We know that the Tic-Tocs predate the court robots and were made by a divine being, plus they grow like living things do. They are exactly what Kat wants to make, biomechanically, and they even saved Annie on the bridge in chapter 7. What if our divine Kat made them in the future and sent them back in time?

[Nnelg]

Feb 27, 2013 19:51:47 GMT keeana said:

What if our divine Kat made them in the future and sent them back in time?

Honestly, I'd find it more plausible if you said the Tic-Tocs were using subliminal messaging to influence Kat into creating equipment they need to replace the unit they lost on the bridge.

[aaroncampbell]

Feb 27, 2013 14:45:54 GMT ravenswd said:

This isn't a wild speculation so much as a question (which may lead to wild speculation, so it's still on-topic).

What would win in a fight, Jones or Coyote's tooth-sword?

An interesting question! Well.... I would say by connecting what Jones says on this page and this page, that Jones would win.

[keeana]

Feb 28, 2013 6:57:06 GMT Nnelg said:

Honestly, I'd find it more plausible if you said the Tic-Tocs were using subliminal messaging to influence Kat into creating equipment they need to replace the unit they lost on the bridge.

That could be neat. Loss of fellow Tic-Tocs without a creator in sight -> ensure development of a new creator?
Perhaps Kat's liking for birds (combined with her formidable techno-genius potential) drew the Tic-Tocs to her as the creator candidate.

[auguris]

Huh. If Coyote's theory is correct, and ether-created creatures/beings manage to exist BEFORE they are created, then isn't it plausible for the tic-tocs to be some sort of etheric/biomechanical hybrid created by Kat?

[quoodle]

Mar 1, 2013 5:07:40 GMT auguris said:

Huh. If Coyote's theory is correct, and ether-created creatures/beings manage to exist BEFORE they are created, then isn't it plausible for the tic-tocs to be some sort of etheric/biomechanical hybrid created by Kat?

Welcome new member - I think this is very plausible - one of many possible origins for the birds. What I would ask - isn't the "power" of humans to do this connected to the Ether to some extent? Or is it related to Mythology?

When Annie brought up myths in response to Jones talking about this power - Jones seemed to correct her saying it's more physical than mere mythology.

The second question: Is Kat's work connected to the Ether in any way? I know the original robots were, but I'm not sure about the current ones (or Kat's new robots). I guess we'll see.

[imaginaryfriend]

Mar 1, 2013 5:07:40 GMT auguris said:

Huh. If Coyote's theory is correct, and ether-created creatures/beings manage to exist BEFORE they are created, then isn't it plausible for the tic-tocs to be some sort of etheric/biomechanical hybrid created by Kat?

Welcome to the forum! It is tough to answer your question because of the way Coyote twists definitions but it may be the case that the preexistence is nominal (in name only). A god may exist now that remembers doing something, but Jones (or other observers or evidence) may say the thing happened naturally, and both may be correct because the "natural" forces at work are not separate from the ether in this Gunneverse. Though the cause (a god) existed before the effect as we now understand it, the persona now attached to those exact forces may not have preexisted, or may have been radically different because of different myth/beliefs. To make that even more complicated, it is possible that whatever "natural" event might not have happened, or might have happened differently, except for past/current/future beliefs about why it happened.

And maybe alternate timelines and stuff.

[Bandersnatch]

Here's two of them:

1. Mort is the guy who ended up being possessed by Reynard and died.

2. In order to set Jeanne free, they must go to the bottom of the lake and remove the metal arrow from the corpse of her lover. However, removing that arrow will allow ethereal begins that were held back in the forest to sneak in to the court to spy on them.

[warrl]

Feb 27, 2013 14:45:54 GMT ravenswd said:

This isn't a wild speculation so much as a question (which may lead to wild speculation, so it's still on-topic).

What would win in a fight, Jones or Coyote's tooth-sword?

My theory is that the Tooth would go through Jones like a knife through water...

... and do about the same amount of damage.

[Georgie L]

Mar 1, 2013 8:00:10 GMT Bandersnatch said:

Here's two of them:

1. Mort is the guy who ended up being possessed by Reynard and died.

2. In order to set Jeanne free, they must go to the bottom of the lake and remove the metal arrow from the corpse of her lover. However, removing that arrow will allow ethereal begins that were held back in the forest to sneak in to the court to spy on them.

1. Rather old theory, was debunked by Tom Formspring almost immediately

2. Rather Plausible

[Nnelg]

Mar 1, 2013 7:21:27 GMT imaginaryfriend said:

And maybe alternate timelines and stuff.

My current theory is that Coyote's "Great Secret" is, if accurate, as meaningful as the statement "The Sun Orbits the Earth".

Consider this: if I assume the center of the earth is stationary, all the math still works out right. The action of the sun on the earth has an equal reaction of the earth on the sun, and no laws of physics or motion are violated. But while this theory is fundementally true, it is more or less pointless since the earth's gravitational field does not dominate the movement of anything else in the solar system but the moon and man-made sattelites.

Now, to put this in terms of causality, there is a theory that positrons are electrons moving backwards in time. And this theory works, all the math checks out right, but it isn't used since it's not practical. We can still treat a positron as an independant particle moving forward in time; and we do so because it is much easier to understand.

The point is that if it can be said that human thoughts can retroactively create etheric beings, it can also be said that the existence of etheric beings affects human thoughts.


Of the two, the latter theory is causal while the former is not. So the latter would be better to adopt from a practical point of view.

Which makes the former rather pointless, doesn't it?

[imaginaryfriend]

Mar 1, 2013 20:56:11 GMT Nnelg said:

Which makes the former rather pointless, doesn't it?

The relevance of Coyote's thought experiment if it is only nominally true depends on your point of view. It matters to Coyote because it makes him not a liar. We know other etheric beings have rules of some sort or other so it may be the case that Coyote isn't allowed to lie. But I think the real point among your examples is oversimplification leads to inaccurate conclusions about as much as unfounded causal attribution, even if both may yield useful predictions under some circumstances. The chicken and egg "paradox" is irresolvable as long as you restrict your thinking to only chickens and chicken eggs.

Without resorting to Coyote's testimony we can observe etheric beings influencing humans in the comic, we can also see some humans using magic without apparent etheric agency beyond themselves, we know the etherically unabled humans can influence the etherical beings, and we do know myth has been one of the longest running themes of the comic. Therefore the most reasonable conclusion is that the relationship between the material and etheric in the Gunnerverse is dynamic. But then we have Jones who has no current connection to the ether; therefore it is reasonable to believe that there is a continuum between matter and ether.

The causal connections Coyote asserts are open to interpretation because we know so little about the ether in the Gunnerverse, but just knowing the ether exists means we are clearly not dealing with a materialistic universe here. We assume we know how the material side of things functions at some peril but so far from page to page it would have led us to accurate predictions about the motion of people and things in the comic (except for Jones). There may be some virtue in studying concepts of the ether in ancient philosophy and alchemy to better understand Gunnerkrigg Court but since you have expressed disdain for that in the past I will simply advise other readers to look into that and move on.

So: Did humans create the powerful etheric beings or not? I think the most reasonable explanation for the chicken in the chicken/egg problem is that there was at one point another creature who could have laid a chicken egg. Likewise the start of the dynamic relationship between etheric beings and man is most probably within a non-personal etheric force, naturally present before humans were present and still present, partly in the personified etheric beings, partly in nature. But again, paradoxical non-linear situations can't be ruled out here. It has been formspring'd that time travel in the Gunnerverse may be possible if you know the right people so we may have some direct evidence on the causality front eventually.

[GK Sierra]

Mar 1, 2013 8:00:10 GMT Bandersnatch said:

will allow ethereal begins that were held back in the forest to sneak in to the court to spy on them.

Ethereal begins, truly a menace to all mankind.

[Nnelg]

imaginaryfriend:

This isn't the usual chicken-and-egg though.


This is like a chicken and an anti-chicken pair spontaneously appearing, and the chicken laying an egg which grows into a chicken that then annihilates with the anti-chicken.

Coyote would describe this as a chicken going back in time and laying its own egg. I'd describe this as spontaneous chicken/anti-chicken pair generation/recombination.


Which one's right? Technically, they both are, but I think my description better fits the way it looks in linear time.

[tpman]

[Kat]'s now under the protection of the Seraphs as of page 1146. What do they think she needs protection from?

[/quote]
My guess- other robots. There's been mention of trouble in the ranks before, and the very fact that the seraphs sought to apprehend Robot for spreading word of the angel seems to indicate that the "trouble in the ranks" is some sort of philosophical/religious divide.
Kat doesn't know it yet but she's caught in the middle of some very turbulent robo-politics. Plausibly robo-violence, possibly robo-war.

[imaginaryfriend]

Mar 2, 2013 1:03:47 GMT Nnelg said:

This is like a chicken and an anti-chicken pair spontaneously appearing, and the chicken laying an egg which grows into a chicken that then annihilates with the anti-chicken.

Coyote would describe this as a chicken going back in time and laying its own egg. I'd describe this as spontaneous chicken/anti-chicken pair generation/recombination.

It's even more complicated than that since there can be contradictory myths and etheric beings existent and simultaneously morphing. And particle physics possibly aside, when stuff gets that craycray it usually means you're still dealing with compounds and missing out on the fundamentals of the situation. Which is why I prefer to look at the Gunnerverse as being ether and matter as interacting fluids (or fields if you prefer) with space and time and everything else in the comic rising or emerging from the complex interaction. So it's no problem for me when a chicken gets destroyed, comes back, gets destroyed again and comes back as functionally identical to the chicken that destroyed the first chicken. Makes perfect sense in linear time and brings the conversation full circle to where the chicken again does not really exist.

[tpman]

So why did Surma marry Anthony?
My guess is that it having a kid with Anthony was an attempt to influence her lineage in some way. It's been hinted that Surma was a less than... calm individual, (http://www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=820) so perhaps whatever the heck Anthony might be (if he went to school at the Court, odds aren't bad there's something unusual about him) was supposed to provide a moderating influence. That or his medical knowledge could have been a deciding factor.
Whatever the deal is I suspect there was some sort of rationale, beyond simple attraction in Surma's decision to marry Tony.

[Nnelg]

imaginaryfriend:
Well, we've been at this one before; but no new information has come up since then. Let's not clog the wild speculation thread, and go back to waiting for something new to surface in-comic.


EDIT:

Mar 2, 2013 3:10:02 GMT tpman said:

My guess is that it having a kid with Anthony was an attempt to influence her lineage in some way.

I highly doubt that was the case.

My theory is (for now) that Anthony was there when James wasn't. It's probably nowhere near that simple, but that's all we have to go on and it's unlikely that Eglamore's protector training helped.

[GK Sierra]

Mar 2, 2013 3:13:38 GMT Nnelg said:

Mar 2, 2013 3:10:02 GMT tpman said:

My guess is that it having a kid with Anthony was an attempt to influence her lineage in some way.

I highly doubt that was the case.

I tend to agree because Tony was legitimately torn up over his wife's death. I don't think any sane guy would conceive with a woman he knew from the start would die because of it. He didn't see it coming.

[tpman]

Mar 2, 2013 3:30:21 GMT GK Sierra said:

Mar 2, 2013 3:13:38 GMT Nnelg said:

I highly doubt that was the case.

I tend to agree because Tony was legitimately torn up over his wife's death. I don't think any sane guy would conceive with a woman he knew from the start would die because of it. He didn't see it coming.

My theory was a little out there. But I don't see how Tony couldn't be aware of the fact that Surma would die. Everything we've heard from people who knew Surma seems to imply they knew she would die if she conceived a child.

[Nnelg]

I hesitate to suggest this, because it could easily be misconstrued...

But that might be related to the reason why Surma chose Anthony over James...

[quoodle]

Mar 2, 2013 6:35:31 GMT tpman said:

... But I don't see how Tony couldn't be aware of the fact that Surma would die. Everything we've heard from people who knew Surma seems to imply they knew she would die if she conceived a child.

Let's see -he's gone for months at a time, he's socially awkward, he doesn't participate much with the group. It see it as plausible he wasn't aware.

And *if* that's coupled with a reluctance of someone else to marry her for fear she'll die - that would be good reason to choose Anthony- someone who's willing to try.

An alternate is he *was* aware, and perhaps his advanced technical knowledge led him to think he could fix anything (pride? wow, and emotion!). Like why Surma was in the hospital instead of at home, and why he was tinkering with his daughter's inner fiery being more recently.

[TBeholder]

Mar 2, 2013 17:39:05 GMT quoodle said:

Let's see -he's gone for months at a time, he's socially awkward, he doesn't participate much with the group. It see it as plausible he wasn't aware.

Renard said he knew, though he's far from unbiased observer. More importantly, there was a flashback where Tony had a problem looking at Annie.

Mar 2, 2013 17:39:05 GMT quoodle said:

Like why Surma was in the hospital instead of at home, and why he was tinkering with his daughter's inner fiery being more recently.

It's the inevitable result. First a guy secretly trains in magic while claiming to think of it as nonsense, then he builds a secret moonbase on the Moon, and then he goes all out and creates a bonelaser.

[Nnelg]

Well, my hypothesis is that the childbearing instinct is extremely strong with Surma's line. Remember Coyote's "when you have a child"?


And before anyone misinterprets this: there are two things you aught to consider.

First, that your view of what is good and bad is subjective: another could consider the trade of one's own life for a child a more than fair deal. Would it be just to deny someone else the right to make that kind of choice? (Honestly, I don't know.)

Second, that we all die eventually. For Surma, not having a child would be just delaying the inevitable. Would it not be better to have one's death be meaningful than to just waste away? And for all we know, for a half-fire elemental that inevitable may have been sooner, not later.


Now, I'm not saying that Surma was looking for a child from the onset, but that would have at least been in her subconscious. Eglamore is the kind of guy whom would be more likely to refuse such a request from Surma, when she finally makes it; while Anthony might be more willing to (reluctantly) accept, if only for the (vain) hope that he could still 'save' her.

Not saying this is what happened, or that it even had an affect on what happened, but it's there.


I'm now thinking that it's likely that something significant happened during the events following Renard's possession, which drove Surma away from James to seek refuge with Anthony. Perhaps when Eglamore, as Court Protector or Protector-in-Training, sought to handle the situation, Surma saw some dark side deep inside him get out for a moment, to her utter horror. I can think of a number of atrocities that could 'reasonably' occur in an event such as that...

[Georgie L]

maybe they'll burn up whether they have a child or not, but having a child at least burns slowly?

[Nnelg]

Mar 2, 2013 19:20:07 GMT Georgie L said:

maybe they'll burn up whether they have a child or not, but having a child at least burns slowly?

Unless they're immortal then definitely yes, although I question the use of the monicker "at least"...

[todd]

The Headmaster believes that everyone else in the Court looks upon him as decayed and doddering, and is not pleased. To show them that he is still in charge, he deliberately chose Smith over Annie, aware that Jones and the others believed the position of medium should go to Annie, simply to show that he was the one giving orders, and not some figurehead or mouthpiece for them.

[Georgie L]

headmaster is an odd role in the court I expect, as the court is much alike a social collective but the role of the headmaster seems to be both the mouthpiece and the leader in a mixed amount.

[vhu9644]

wait, i was just rereading the last few pages
do parley and smithy smell the same because they just consummated their relationship? O.o
even coyote states they smell like they are married

or is it something more safe than that...