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Post by shaihulud on Dec 7, 2020 22:41:58 GMT
Theory: In alchemy Antimony is called the "Child of Saturn." In multiple texts Saturn is portrayed as the Grim Reaper. What if the reason Antimony counts as a spirit guide is because she is actually Ankou's descendant?
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Post by saardvark on Dec 8, 2020 3:26:17 GMT
Theory: In alchemy Antimony is called the "Child of Saturn." In multiple texts Saturn is portrayed as the Grim Reaper. What if the reason Antimony counts as a spirit guide is because she is actually Ankou's descendant? hmm, well, Annie is the daughter of a psychopomp (Surma), and if psychopomps in general are analogs to "Grim Reapers", it fits ...
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Post by DonDueed on Dec 8, 2020 14:07:30 GMT
Theory: In alchemy Antimony is called the "Child of Saturn." In multiple texts Saturn is portrayed as the Grim Reaper. What if the reason Antimony counts as a spirit guide is because she is actually Ankou's descendant? hmm, well, Annie is the daughter of a psychopomp (Surma), and if psychopomps in general are analogs to "Grim Reapers", it fits ... Wait, did I miss something? Since when was Surma a psychopomp? Fire elemental, sure, but never a psychopomp as far as I recall.
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Post by blahzor on Dec 8, 2020 16:05:47 GMT
hmm, well, Annie is the daughter of a psychopomp (Surma), and if psychopomps in general are analogs to "Grim Reapers", it fits ... Wait, did I miss something? Since when was Surma a psychopomp? Fire elemental, sure, but never a psychopomp as far as I recall. they are mistaking them wanting Surma to be one briefly. unlike their constant trying to get annie to be one
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Post by shaihulud on Dec 8, 2020 16:29:59 GMT
Wait, did I miss something? Since when was Surma a psychopomp? Fire elemental, sure, but never a psychopomp as far as I recall. they are mistaking them wanting Surma to be one briefly. unlike their constant trying to get annie to be one No, I'm not making a mistake. Annie has the Antimony symbol above her head in the chapter "Realm of the Dead" which marks her as an afterlife guide. You can see this here: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1305
Further more, in the next chapter "See Ya!" Ankou implies there is a reason that she has such a strong desire to claim Jeanne's soul here: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1336
So my Wild Spec is that Antimony is actually Ankou's great granddaughter on her great grandmother's side, that the first Antimony (Or someone else in her family tree) was actually descended from the Grim Reaper.
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echo
Junior Member
Currently contemplating if Tom's post counts are a reflection of timeloops, or a CSS trick?
Posts: 60
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Post by echo on Dec 8, 2020 21:24:50 GMT
Theory: In alchemy Antimony is called the "Child of Saturn." In multiple texts Saturn is portrayed as the Grim Reaper. What if the reason Antimony counts as a spirit guide is because she is actually Ankou's descendant? Saturn is portrayed in some texts as a black sun object of worship, in Roman Mythology he is revered as the father of Jupiter(and by proxy is the titan Chronus to Jupiter's Zeus) These mythological figures and how good/bad they are vary immensely. Though with Jupiter and Saturn, it can't be denied that they blow a lot of hot air.
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Post by blahzor on Dec 9, 2020 2:08:17 GMT
they are mistaking them wanting Surma to be one briefly. unlike their constant trying to get annie to be one No, I'm not making a mistake. Annie has the Antimony symbol above her head in the chapter "Realm of the Dead" which marks her as an afterlife guide. You can see this here: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1305Further more, in the next chapter "See Ya!" Ankou implies there is a reason that she has such a strong desire to claim Jeanne's soul here: www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=1336So my Wild Spec is that Antimony is actually Ankou's great granddaughter on her great grandmother's side, that the first Antimony (Or someone else in her family tree) was actually descended from the Grim Reaper.
i take that as her job as a guide is retroactive to her deal with them. there's times in the comic that things can happen in the past after the future
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Post by saardvark on Dec 9, 2020 3:35:03 GMT
Wait, did I miss something? Since when was Surma a psychopomp? Fire elemental, sure, but never a psychopomp as far as I recall. they are mistaking them wanting Surma to be one briefly. unlike their constant trying to get annie to be one you're right, I had mis-remembered. Thanks for the correction...
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Post by Gemminie on Dec 9, 2020 5:07:11 GMT
Wait, did I miss something? Since when was Surma a psychopomp? Fire elemental, sure, but never a psychopomp as far as I recall. That's my speculation as well – what evidence do we have that Surma ever escorted a spirit into the Ether? Absolutely none, as far as I can tell. She apparently helped the psychopomps out sometimes, but that doesn't necessarily mean actual spirit guiding. Since she was Court medium, she might have had the same ethereal empathy ability that Annie has (maybe literally inherited from her mother), and that could have been helpful to the guides, but without further proof I don't think she actually took any spirits into the Ether. But Antimony is a guide, so that's why they push her to help Jeanne when they never pushed Surma to do it. So while I'm here, where does Annie get her psychopomp abilities from? What if that comes from Tony's side of the family? We know nothing about his parents. The one time we've seen Surma asking him about them, he refuses to answer – not one word. He changes the subject. This isn't to say that Tony's an afterlife guide, although what if he is? He was able to basically pull Annie's soul out of her body, though via a ritual that would be difficult to perform more than once. Those creatures who showed him how to do it and then tricked him (were they psychopomps? or just evil ethereal beings of some sort? or were they hallucinations that never existed at all?) may have wanted something from him in return, but what? Or maybe Tony isn't a guide, but perhaps one of his parents or other ancestors was. Without more information about them, though, there's not much to say.
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Post by shaihulud on Dec 9, 2020 6:08:35 GMT
Or maybe Tony isn't a guide, but perhaps one of his parents or other ancestors was. Without more information about them, though, there's not much to say.
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Post by foxurus on Dec 9, 2020 9:15:08 GMT
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Post by blahzor on Dec 9, 2020 9:35:10 GMT
I can't ever get the Zimmy = Alt Annie thing over the idea that Zimmy = Alt Kat Just off some sort of parallel with Gamma and Zimmy interaction and Kat and Annie interaction. Or Kat sees the ether in the simplest/basic/structured form and Zimmy in it's most chaotic
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Post by Corvo on Dec 9, 2020 11:48:28 GMT
People, please! It's pretty obvious: Every character = alt Eglamore
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Post by speedwell on Dec 9, 2020 11:51:54 GMT
"Yeah they had parents." (that's in response to a question about Gamma and Zimmy). Had parents?
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Post by foxurus on Dec 9, 2020 19:47:39 GMT
I can't ever get the Zimmy = Alt Annie thing over the idea that Zimmy = Alt Kat Just off some sort of parallel with Gamma and Zimmy interaction and Kat and Annie interaction. Or Kat sees the ether in the simplest/basic/structured form and Zimmy in it's most chaotic Zimmy and Annie have very similar facial features, and Zimmy has gotten confused between herself and Annie a couple times. Tom is usually pretty good at avoiding Same Face Syndrome as far as I've noticed, so it's probably intentional that they look similar (allowing that one has stunted growth, ratty hair, and pointy teeth). The visual of Zimmy being an "ember", like how her eyes are black like soot and how she steams when she gets rained on, is enticing, though probably coincidental. "Yeah they had parents." (that's in response to a question about Gamma and Zimmy). Had parents? He uses the present tense for Zimmy's parents in other questions, so I think maybe he just means they're not filling the role of being parents any more? My best guess. Gamma's parents might be dead, too; neither she or Tom seem to care about them.
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Post by blahzor on Dec 10, 2020 9:23:44 GMT
I can't ever get the Zimmy = Alt Anni thing over the idea that Zimmy = Alt Kat Just off some sort of parallel with Gamma and Zimmy interaction and Kat and Annie interaction. Or Kat sees the ether in the simplest/basic/structured form and Zimmy in it's most chaotic Zimmy and Annie have very similar facial features, and Zimmy has gotten confused between herself and Annie a couple times. Tom is usually pretty good at avoiding Same Face Syndrome as far as I've noticed, so it's probably intentional that they look similar (allowing that one has stunted growth, ratty hair, and pointy teeth). The visual of Zimmy being an "ember", like how her eyes are black like soot and how she steams when she gets rained on, is enticing, though probably coincidental. "Yeah they had parents." (that's in response to a question about Gamma and Zimmy). Had parents? He uses the present tense for Zimmy's parents in other questions, so I think maybe he just means they're not filling the role of being parents any more? My best guess. Gamma's parents might be dead, too; neither she or Tom seem to care about them. I'm going more on ability and sheer power Kat has displayed power not normally seen in a human same with Zimmy Annie has displayed a similar power as Gamma
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Post by pyradonis on Dec 10, 2020 9:57:55 GMT
Zimmy and Annie have very similar facial features[...] what
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Post by Gemminie on Dec 11, 2020 5:02:45 GMT
I felt like doing some speculating. Kat: "And the robots, of course ... I'm even more sure of the work I have to do to help them, but I know I made some bad choices along the way. And that's something I'm going to have to face up to." What bad choices has Kat made? My thought: Kat: "Robots! I must tell you something. I am not your angel. I allowed you to believe that I was, but I'm not. I should have denied it from the start. I'm just one human, trying to help you." Various Robots: Not the angel ... not the angel? Not the angel! Robot, once Kat has left: Perhaps our friend Kat is not the angel. But she did serve as the host by which the angel was brought into this world! Now that the angel is here, she will continue to help us as long as we believe in her. Angel: I need a new host ...
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Post by fia on Jan 1, 2021 18:42:35 GMT
Thinking about Zimmy/Gamma today and wondering exactly what sort of co-dependent their relationship is. Zimmy is pretty insecure, she lies to Gamma, etc., and she definitely needs Gamma to stay alive. But Gamma has said she loves Zimmy and doesn't seem to mind hanging out with her all day and staying up to help her 'tune in' to reality, even though we have no evidence of how Zimmy is necessary to Gamma's survival or anything. So my speculation is: given that Zimmy/Gamma seems somewhat symbiotic, in biological terms, and Zimmy definitely benefits: does Gamma benefit? That is, is the relationship mutualistic (both organisms/people benefit) or is it commensalism (Zimmy benefits and Gamma is neutral)? * - Side note I briefly considered the possibility that Zimmy is literally an insect person or something like that, ("kindunos entomo"), with ether powers, and started looking up invertebrates she could be analogous to, since we know Tom really likes invertebrates (Lindsay, Ketrak, Tony's entomological thing). Turns out a lot of commensalistic relationships involve one smaller organism hitching a ride on or benefiting from a second larger organism, and Gamma is definitely 'bigger' than Zimmy. So it's not a baseless guess! (Also fyi in digging around I found these little guys which are both creepy and cute and tiny, and generally beneficial to people, and they are found a lot in libraries, which I thought resonated with Zimmy's usual haunts too. They have a commensalistic relationship with certain larger organisms, which they'll use to get around).
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Post by warrl on Jan 1, 2021 21:53:27 GMT
Well, Gamma is telepathic with Zimmy, but so far nobody else we've seen, and apparently doesn't speak English. We have no idea why she isn't with her parents, beyond hanging out with Zimmy; my guess is that she either was abandoned or escaped from an even worse situation of some sort.
Connecting with Zimmy would have made her life in England without adult supervision and financing a lot easier.
On the other hand... she should have learned some English by now, and we've seen no sign of it. The Court should be helping her, beyond making food available, and we've seen no sign of that either.
Zimmy ought to have taken her to get help, but Zimmy herself probably has a lot of bad experience with authority figures...
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Post by pyradonis on Jan 2, 2021 0:51:16 GMT
Thinking about Zimmy/Gamma today and wondering exactly what sort of co-dependent their relationship is. Zimmy is pretty insecure, she lies to Gamma, etc., and she definitely needs Gamma to stay alive. But Gamma has said she loves Zimmy and doesn't seem to mind hanging out with her all day and staying up to help her 'tune in' to reality, even though we have no evidence of how Zimmy is necessary to Gamma's survival or anything. So my speculation is: given that Zimmy/Gamma seems somewhat symbiotic, in biological terms, and Zimmy definitely benefits: does Gamma benefit? That is, is the relationship mutualistic (both organisms/people benefit) or is it commensalism (Zimmy benefits and Gamma is neutral)? Some people who are in love would claim being with their beloved is indeed necessary for their survival. Apart from that, though, in biological terms the relationship seemes more like parasitism to me. Maybe even parasitoidism, as IMHO Gamma's life expectancy is pretty low if she continues with this lifestyle.
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Post by fia on Jan 2, 2021 16:06:09 GMT
pyradonis I was trying not to consider parasitism, primarily because it makes me really sad to think that's what Gamma x Zimmy are. Also because as warrl points out they share a telepathic connection, which is not nothing, and because Gamma has said she loves her as has Jack, which suggests to me there's something about her at least certain people benefit from (if only emotionally). Also because I am of the opinion that she, like all humans, deserves love, whereas the 'parasite' label might suggest otherwise, that she's just leeching off of others undeservedly (even if she doesn't want to). I would prefer to think Gamma neither gains nor loses anything involuntarily by being with Zimmy. I.e., hopefully Zimmy is less a "self-conscious vampire with a willing victim as a partner" and more of a "self-conscious person with a disability that requires attentive assistance," I guess. All of that is wishful thinking on my part, though, your guess is as good as mine. The other option, mutualism, would depend on there being evidence of something Gamma actively needs from Zimmy; which would show not only that Zimmy's insecurity is unfounded (at least in her relationship with Gamma) but also that Gamma isn't quite so tragic. But we don't have evidence of that at all as far as I can tell, other than the telepathy.
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Post by pyradonis on Jan 2, 2021 17:51:50 GMT
pyradonis I was trying not to consider parasitism, primarily because it makes me really sad to think that's what Gamma x Zimmy are. Also because as warrl points out they share a telepathic connection, which is not nothing, and because Gamma has said she loves her as has Jack, which suggests to me there's something about her at least certain people benefit from (if only emotionally). Also because I am of the opinion that she, like all humans, deserves love, whereas the 'parasite' label might suggest otherwise, that she's just leeching off of others undeservedly (even if she doesn't want to). I would prefer to think Gamma neither gains nor loses anything involuntarily by being with Zimmy. I.e., hopefully Zimmy is less a "self-conscious vampire with a willing victim as a partner" and more of a "self-conscious person with a disability that requires attentive assistance," I guess. All of that is wishful thinking on my part, though, your guess is as good as mine. The other option, mutualism, would depend on there being evidence of something Gamma actively needs from Zimmy; which would show not only that Zimmy's insecurity is unfounded (at least in her relationship with Gamma) but also that Gamma isn't quite so tragic. But we don't have evidence of that at all as far as I can tell, other than the telepathy. Well, I don't see Zimmy as a parasitic being or anything like that. It's what - in my opinion - comes nearest to describing this relationship in biologic terms for symbiotic relationships. But I think we can agree that the classification of symbiotic relationships in biology is woefully inadequate to describe a relationship between two individual beings of a species* which is evolved enough to develop feelings of love, friendship, jealousy etc. towards other sentient beings.
*Intentionally not only speaking of humans, because even in the real world, many kinds of animals are able to experience those feelings as well.
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Post by Runningflame on Jan 3, 2021 23:45:44 GMT
We know that Zimmy is terrified of Kat because of how Kat looks to her. Some recent speculation has centered around whether Kat has always looked that way to Zimmy (particularly in Zimmy's first couple appearances, where she seems more rude to Kat than afraid). I'm wondering, though: did Kat look that way to Zimmy even earlier in the same chapter? Because a few pages into the chapter, Kat looks (to the readers) like a girl with a pigeon on her head. How does Kat look to Zimmy at that point? I say she looks like a girl with a pigeon on her head. - Zimmy and Gamma both react to the pigeon, in the same way: first surprise, then amusement.
- The pigeon stays through most of the chapter.
- Gamma's not in the room, so we can't be seeing her point of view.
- Kat is present, but she never realizes she's got a pigeon on her head, so we can't be seeing her point of view.
- Zimmy hears and responds to what the pigeon says. Of course, this could be her hearing/sensing Kat's thoughts in some other way... but then why are we seeing a pigeon? And why does Zimmy laugh when it first shows up?
I conclude that we're seeing what Zimmy is seeing, and therefore Zimmy sees a girl with a pigeon. It seems like Zimmy is generally scared of Kat*, so she's probably seen or at least sensed the mecha-angel form in Kat before. But I think Zimmy does not see the apparition every time she sees Kat, only sometimes. (Compare The Torn Sea, in which Zimmingham bleeds into the real world, yet Kat looks just like herself except for one short moment at the end.) * The pronoun game with "her"/"she" adds some obfuscation, but given what we know by the end of the chapter, it makes sense that "I don't want to see her" means Kat rather than Annie.
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Post by fia on Jan 4, 2021 14:24:05 GMT
We know that Zimmy is terrified of Kat because of how Kat looks to her. Some recent speculation has centered around whether Kat has always looked that way to Zimmy (particularly in Zimmy's first couple appearances, where she seems more rude to Kat than afraid). I'm wondering, though: did Kat look that way to Zimmy even earlier in the same chapter? Because a few pages into the chapter, Kat looks (to the readers) like a girl with a pigeon on her head. How does Kat look to Zimmy at that point? I say she looks like a girl with a pigeon on her head. If it helps I've always also seen the Mecha Angel on this page also as having a pigeon on her head and also on this page (even though Zimmy is not causing the vision anymore, it's how the Seraph bots and maybe Paz see her); however, on the Jeanne arc pages it looks more like a giant needle. I spent a looooong time staring at those. I think Zimmy sees people as the etheric version of themselves, and for some reason if she enters an uncontrolled state (as after she punched Annie's dad and used a lot of her energy) she sees the fearsome/awesome version instead of the more basic one. For me I think fear is sort of the key to when Kat looks like a MechaAngel in the ether – Annie was scared when she was inside the etheric lock, the Seraphs were terrified of Kat's judgment, and the MechaAngel was activated also when Zimmy got thrown across the room by Annie's psyche. I don't know why the cute bird on her head looks more like a needle lately, maybe that's got to do with the fact that she's advanced past bird science with the TikToks and is moving into synthetic biology.
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Post by Vuk(Wolf) on Jan 4, 2021 14:45:31 GMT
Theory on why Tony is not himself around Court Annie: We know that Tony's awkwardness powers activate when he is in presence of multiple people. Is it possible that Court Annie is in fact not alone? Maybe when Loup sent her back to court he didn't send her by herself, instead possibly attached some sort of spying tool which no one but Tony detected, Tony himself is not sure what it is but his Awkwardness powers never fail.
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Post by jda on Jan 4, 2021 15:46:22 GMT
Theory on why Tony is not himself around Court Annie: We know that Tony's awkwardness powers activate when he is in presence of multiple people. Is it possible that Court Annie is in fact not alone? Maybe when Loup sent her back to court he didn't send her by herself, instead possibly attached some sort of spying tool which no one but Tony detected, Tony himself is not sure what it is but his Awkwardness powers never fail. Tony being awkward with Complete!Annie before the time trick makes me feel that Tony sees Forest!Annie more like a single person, not the daughter-I-almost-killed+wife-I-indeed-couldnt-save
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Post by pyradonis on Jan 4, 2021 20:36:49 GMT
Theory on why Tony is not himself around Court Annie: We know that Tony's awkwardness powers activate when he is in presence of multiple people. Is it possible that Court Annie is in fact not alone? Maybe when Loup sent her back to court he didn't send her by herself, instead possibly attached some sort of spying tool which no one but Tony detected, Tony himself is not sure what it is but his Awkwardness powers never fail. If that is the case, it opens up a whole other bundle of questions regarding this. (Why did Loup have to send an automated message? Is the Court somehow jamming his communication with the spy-whatever? Did he send the message in a bottle seed so as not to reveal that he had a spy in the Court? Did he lie and in reality the conversation was two-way after all?)
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Post by Vuk(Wolf) on Jan 4, 2021 20:43:40 GMT
Theory on why Tony is not himself around Court Annie: We know that Tony's awkwardness powers activate when he is in presence of multiple people. Is it possible that Court Annie is in fact not alone? Maybe when Loup sent her back to court he didn't send her by herself, instead possibly attached some sort of spying tool which no one but Tony detected, Tony himself is not sure what it is but his Awkwardness powers never fail. Tony being awkward with Complete!Annie before the time trick makes me feel that Tony sees Forest!Annie more like a single person, not the daughter-I-almost-killed+wife-I-indeed-couldnt-save Come to think of it, he was awkward with her even when he was teaching her Judo(I think) moves and also back in the hospital. Maybe Annie was never alone to begin with...
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Post by saardvark on Jan 4, 2021 22:04:56 GMT
Theory on why Tony is not himself around Court Annie: We know that Tony's awkwardness powers activate when he is in presence of multiple people. Is it possible that Court Annie is in fact not alone? Maybe when Loup sent her back to court he didn't send her by herself, instead possibly attached some sort of spying tool which no one but Tony detected, Tony himself is not sure what it is but his Awkwardness powers never fail. Tony being awkward with Complete!Annie before the time trick makes me feel that Tony sees Forest!Annie more like a single person, not the daughter-I-almost-killed+wife-I-indeed-couldnt-save Perhaps since he has time continuity with Court Annie (she was only gone to see Loup for one day), she is the Annie he associates with all those emotional complexities (and always has). Forest Annie is clearly different (if only because missing 6 months) and so is perceived differently. She doesnt have the same emotional baggage for him attached - she's a new minted, "clean" Annie in a way (the way he feels it) that he can be/feel more "himself" with when alone with her.
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