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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Sept 2, 2020 3:47:27 GMT
But one question remains: what is it about Kat's TicToc that allows it to "sprout" and start building... something? A TicToc factory? A new court?? Did Kat include that capability knowingly, or is it something about her robo-organic technology that even she doesn't yet understand? Has she invented the Seed Bismuth accidentally? Ysengrin lied, at least about when and how he found the Tic Toc. So why believe his claim that the Tic Toc had rooted itself into the cliff? The condition of the Tic Toc before Ysengrin crushed it seems intentionally ambiguous. You can imagine that it changed since Annie last saw it. Or you could be skeptical and imagine that Ysengrin just pulled some more of it innards out. As much as I want a connection between Kat and the Seed Bismuth, the simplest possibility is Ysengrin lied and the most special thing about the Tic Toc is Kat's Skuld-enabled time stream controlling smart phone, that may not be limited to the Tic Toc.
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Post by Druplesnubb on Sept 2, 2020 8:19:30 GMT
Coyote likely removed Ysengrin's memory of finding the Tik Tok for the first time.
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Post by madjack on Sept 2, 2020 8:31:25 GMT
Waaaaait, what if that's what the lake water is... A memory of a full conversation they had with Coyote through the tic-toc, what they learned/set up, and then removed it from himself with instructions to himself to give it to parley and smitty when they visit later on.
E: Or something equally temporally convoluted.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Sept 2, 2020 9:32:48 GMT
But one question remains: what is it about Kat's TicToc that allows it to "sprout" and start building... something? A TicToc factory? A new court?? Did Kat include that capability knowingly, or is it something about her robo-organic technology that even she doesn't yet understand? Has she invented the Seed Bismuth accidentally? Ysengrin lied, at least about when and how he found the Tic Toc. So why believe his claim that the Tic Toc had rooted itself into the cliff? The condition of the Tic Toc before Ysengrin crushed it seems intentionally ambiguous. You can imagine that it changed since Annie last saw it. Or you could be skeptical and imagine that Ysengrin just pulled some more of it innards out. As much as I want a connection between Kat and the Seed Bismuth, the simplest possibility is Ysengrin lied and the most special thing about the Tic Toc is Kat's Skuld-enabled time stream controlling smart phone, that may not be limited to the Tic Toc. Yeah it's either that Ys was lying/brainwashed about the Toc's remains or that Toc was built by a different Kat. In spite of the artistic representation the Tocs coming from different points in the timestream are from the relative past present and future and therefore have been built by Kats of different ages (and interestingly enough not every Kat that the Norns met had a Toc so possibly they had some other device for some other purpose) so variation in construction and even skill level is to be expected.
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Post by alevice on Sept 3, 2020 3:37:06 GMT
I just realized that Coyotes conclusion about the impact of humanity and how important they are to their existence may have been only realized after he met Renard, for he saw humans as mere ants before, he only actively observed them until he joined the forest. That is probably why coyote really wanted to give his powers to Renard over Ysengrin originally.
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Post by netherdan on Sept 3, 2020 4:06:27 GMT
I just realized that Coyotes conclusion about the impact of humanity and how important they are to their existence may have been only realized after he met Renard, for he saw humans as mere ants before, he only actively observed them until he joined the forest. That is probably why coyote really wanted to give his powers to Renard over Ysengrin originally. That made me think the more you use Coyote's powers the more maddening it gets and that's why Ysengrin has such personality changes, he uses the stuff literally every second while Renard used it, what, 3 times? (Wolf doll, Sivo, and the guy that looked like he could be Smitty's dad)
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Post by pyradonis on Sept 3, 2020 17:51:12 GMT
I just realized that Coyotes conclusion about the impact of humanity and how important they are to their existence may have been only realized after he met Renard, for he saw humans as mere ants before, he only actively observed them until he joined the forest. That is probably why coyote really wanted to give his powers to Renard over Ysengrin originally. That made me think the more you use Coyote's powers the more maddening it gets and that's why Ysengrin has such personality changes, he uses the stuff literally every second while Renard used it, what, 3 times? (Wolf doll, Sivo, and the guy that looked like he could be Smitty's dad) He tried it out on at least one (but, given Coyote's wording, probably more than one) forest animal before.
Regarding Ysengrin's statements about the Tic-Toc, I'm also in the camp that his memory had been altered and he was genuinely believing what he was saying during the meeting. Lies and deception are just not his style and I cannot recall any occasion in the comic where Ys deliberately spoke the untruth.
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Post by wies on Sept 3, 2020 19:26:37 GMT
Leaves the question why Ysengrin would allow the robot's remains to take root in the Forest's side if not as an excuse to heap blame upon the Court.
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Post by blahzor on Sept 4, 2020 4:52:30 GMT
Leaves the question why Ysengrin would allow the robot's remains to take root in the Forest's side if not as an excuse to heap blame upon the Court. it wouldn't be his idea to go to the court it would be Coyote's. Even if his memory is correct he wouldnt go down to the waters without Coyote to send the monsters to attempt to cross it. They've obvious defense on stopping them from using the bridge or else they wouldn't bother with trapping Jeanne
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Post by wies on Sept 4, 2020 7:06:08 GMT
I get that the idea of going to the court could be Coyote's idea. But I am wondering about his own motivations to allow the Court's tech spread in his cliff. Like, he buried it in the ground. Was that on orders of Coyote then?
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Post by pyradonis on Sept 4, 2020 10:43:36 GMT
I get that the idea of going to the court could be Coyote's idea. But I am wondering about his own motivations to allow the Court's tech spread in his cliff. Like, he buried it in the ground. Was that on orders of Coyote then? Probable. When he attacked Annie in the Forest, Coyote's remarks before and Ysengrin not understanding why he had done it afterwards strongly suggested Coyote can even influence Ysengrin's actions directly. But just as well Coyote could just have ordered Ys to bury the Tic-Toc and removed this memory afterwards.
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Post by blahzor on Sept 6, 2020 12:38:18 GMT
wild shot
zimmy and annie are twins surma and tony are parents annie got fire elemental alone zimmy is the void of it
Annie start of alphabet Zimmy the end
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Post by bedinsis on Sept 6, 2020 13:34:57 GMT
Zimmy's and Gamma's names Zeta and Gamma were assigned by the Court. Their names alludes to a connection with the Omega project, since they are all Greek letters. Since I am already bringing up Greek letters I might as well point to the triangle in the 6th treatise which contained Gamma, Zeta and Iota. I don't know what Iota means but I found it interesting that those are the 3rd, 6th and 9th letter of the Greek alphabet. A triangle containing multiples of 3.
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Post by jda on Sept 7, 2020 5:26:48 GMT
Zimmy's and Gamma's names Zeta and Gamma were assigned by the Court. Their names alludes to a connection with the Omega project, since they are all Greek letters. Since I am already bringing up Greek letters I might as well point to the triangle in the 6th treatise which contained Gamma, Zeta and Iota. I don't know what Iota means but I found it interesting that those are the 3rd, 6th and 9th letter of the Greek alphabet. A triangle containing multiples of 3. On said treatise, the only signs clearly on the tree body, on opposite sides/directions, are Z's and Antimony s
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Post by mturtle7 on Sept 7, 2020 5:52:21 GMT
Zimmy's and Gamma's names Zeta and Gamma were assigned by the Court. Their names alludes to a connection with the Omega project, since they are all Greek letters. Since I am already bringing up Greek letters I might as well point to the triangle in the 6th treatise which contained Gamma, Zeta and Iota. I don't know what Iota means but I found it interesting that those are the 3rd, 6th and 9th letter of the Greek alphabet. A triangle containing multiples of 3. I think I remember someone once commenting that Iota is the closest letter in the Greek alphabet to J, for Jack (and/or maybe Jenny?).
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Post by madjack on Sept 7, 2020 6:56:03 GMT
Zimmy's and Gamma's names Zeta and Gamma were assigned by the Court. Their names alludes to a connection with the Omega project, since they are all Greek letters. Since I am already bringing up Greek letters I might as well point to the triangle in the 6th treatise which contained Gamma, Zeta and Iota. I don't know what Iota means but I found it interesting that those are the 3rd, 6th and 9th letter of the Greek alphabet. A triangle containing multiples of 3. I think I remember someone once commenting that Iota is the closest letter in the Greek alphabet to J, for Jack (and/or maybe Jenny?). If I'm remembering right, the retrospective with that treatise had Tom mention it was Jack, but I'm wondering if it could double for Jones as well, seeing as Jones, Zimmy and Gamma all existed as characters that predate Annie
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Post by bedinsis on Sept 8, 2020 18:26:10 GMT
I think I remember someone once commenting that Iota is the closest letter in the Greek alphabet to J, for Jack (and/or maybe Jenny?). If I'm remembering right, the retrospective with that treatise had Tom mention it was Jack, but I'm wondering if it could double for Jones as well, seeing as Jones, Zimmy and Gamma all existed as characters that predate Annie Then you are misremembering. I know that people speculated that it could stand for Jack which would put Zimmy, Gamma and Jack in a triangle. If taken as a love triangle, the Iota would have a double meaning: both for Jack and for how much Zimmy cares about him. To get back to main part of my speculation: is there any scientific process that is symbolically expressed with a zeta where there is a dampening factor symbolized via a gamma? It would make sense that if they were given identification by the court that they would give names that alludes to their attributes.
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Post by madjack on Sept 9, 2020 2:50:18 GMT
If I'm remembering right, the retrospective with that treatise had Tom mention it was Jack, but I'm wondering if it could double for Jones as well, seeing as Jones, Zimmy and Gamma all existed as characters that predate Annie Then you are misremembering. I know that people speculated that it could stand for Jack which would put Zimmy, Gamma and Jack in a triangle. If taken as a love triangle, the Iota would have a double meaning: both for Jack and for how much Zimmy cares about him. Welp.
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Post by madjack on Sept 11, 2020 10:12:47 GMT
Had an interesting thought about the Tic-Toc, in that Kat designed it as something unconnected to her manufacturing plant just to aimlessly fly around instead of anything of actual significance. So, it's controlled by a generic reprogrammed phone, rather than the computer that only she can use. This might open it up to getting stolen. Edit: After some more thought, given Skuld's tinkering with it, the controller is definitely more valuable than the bird itself to someone who could reverse-engineer it, like for instance the Court.
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Post by Gemminie on Sept 14, 2020 18:00:44 GMT
Zimmy's and Gamma's names Zeta and Gamma were assigned by the Court. Their names alludes to a connection with the Omega project, since they are all Greek letters. Since I am already bringing up Greek letters I might as well point to the triangle in the 6th treatise which contained Gamma, Zeta and Iota. I don't know what Iota means but I found it interesting that those are the 3rd, 6th and 9th letter of the Greek alphabet. A triangle containing multiples of 3. Hmm. " She's 14 but still in year 8 like us," Zimmy said of Gamma, so Gamma's older. Assuming there were Alpha and Beta at some point, and a Delta and Epsilon between Gamma and Zimmy, how long would it take to get to Omega (the 24th letter)? They weren't created by Court experiments, but they were found and labeled by the Court, so it's probably a little difficult to predict how often the Court finds the next "letter," especially considering that some of them might not actually be people or even creatures, but events. Considering that Gamma and Zimmy were brought to the Court at the same time, it's interesting that their "letters" aren't consecutive, but what if the Court found and identified Gamma without her knowledge, then followed her until she led them to Zimmy? Then, in the meantime, the Court found and labeled Delta and Epsilon elsewhere? If Jack Hyland is Iota, what are Eta and Theta, considering that he's approximately the same age as Zimmy? Was Gamma already named Gamma before the Court found her? If Gamma isn't her real name, what is it? If they named her Subject Gamma because of her real name, can we be sure that she was labeled in alphabetical order? Or was she both already named Gamma and labeled Gamma as some sort of synchronicity, which could be an etheric phenomenon that the Court might be interested in? At the time of chapter 12 (probably late-ish in Year 7 of school), Zimmy and Gamma have been at the Court for something like a year and a half. The fact that it's now probably about 3 years later means that there's been plenty of time to run through the rest of the Greek alphabet and reach Omega ... Is Annie one of the labeled discoveries? Is Kat? Which "letters" are they?
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Post by bedinsis on Sept 14, 2020 20:04:41 GMT
Zimmy's and Gamma's names Zeta and Gamma were assigned by the Court. Their names alludes to a connection with the Omega project, since they are all Greek letters. Since I am already bringing up Greek letters I might as well point to the triangle in the 6th treatise which contained Gamma, Zeta and Iota. I don't know what Iota means but I found it interesting that those are the 3rd, 6th and 9th letter of the Greek alphabet. A triangle containing multiples of 3. Hmm. " She's 14 but still in year 8 like us," Zimmy said of Gamma, so Gamma's older. Assuming there were Alpha and Beta at some point, and a Delta and Epsilon between Gamma and Zimmy, how long would it take to get to Omega (the 24th letter)? They weren't created by Court experiments, but they were found and labeled by the Court, so it's probably a little difficult to predict how often the Court finds the next "letter," especially considering that some of them might not actually be people or even creatures, but events. Considering that Gamma and Zimmy were brought to the Court at the same time, it's interesting that their "letters" aren't consecutive, but what if the Court found and identified Gamma without her knowledge, then followed her until she led them to Zimmy? Then, in the meantime, the Court found and labeled Delta and Epsilon elsewhere? If Jack Hyland is Iota, what are Eta and Theta, considering that he's approximately the same age as Zimmy? Was Gamma already named Gamma before the Court found her? If Gamma isn't her real name, what is it? If they named her Subject Gamma because of her real name, can we be sure that she was labeled in alphabetical order? Or was she both already named Gamma and labeled Gamma as some sort of synchronicity, which could be an etheric phenomenon that the Court might be interested in? At the time of chapter 12 (probably late-ish in Year 7 of school), Zimmy and Gamma have been at the Court for something like a year and a half. The fact that it's now probably about 3 years later means that there's been plenty of time to run through the rest of the Greek alphabet and reach Omega ... Is Annie one of the labeled discoveries? Is Kat? Which "letters" are they? I assume these questions are rhetorical and meant to further your own speculation along because I haven't got the faintest idea. My intention was primarily to speculate that the names were assigned by the court, since Parley's name is George due to premature naming and the entire Foley house are very particular with naming conventions. So it's a running theme. Given that Zimmy and Gamma was discovered and taken to the court simultaneously yet have names not directly after each other in the Greek alphabet I suspect it's not a matter of them going through the Greek alphabet. Even the Omega Project was a known entity back before Annie(and presumably Zimmy) was born.
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Post by madjack on Sept 15, 2020 6:15:32 GMT
The idea of Kat's time-empowered phone being taken by others (the Court) for their own use has been bouncing around in my head on and off for a few days now, and while there are any number of reasons 'why' someone would want or need a device that can control the time stream, it really doesn't have a use without the access to the stream itself flowing within Asgard. So, what if the Court are building their own time stream? They had an ether station that extracted, filtered and transmitted etheric energy elsewhere.. And the source of that energy was the water from the Court's artificial lake. The station was recently finished being disassembled, for whatever reason. Not having access to the full stream flowing from the ether and perhaps the expertise of the Norns, I'd theorize that any attempt would be much more limited than what we've seen Kat do, zipping the bird through time practically as she pleases. Say for example, something like generating a minor event such as a small branch breaking off a tree, or foreseeing a pair of slugs mating at a specific point in space. A technologically-based device that could be used or reversed engineered to give much finer control than ever for experiments like that would be a massive breakthrough, even if they don't fully understand how it works to begin with.
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Post by blahzor on Sept 17, 2020 4:36:15 GMT
wait how i've been reading this comic for mad years and just thought that Zimmmy's nobodies are people sent into the ether. their power to fuel everyone's magic stuff is gone so Zimmy is getting the husk. She doesn't like to touch them because of that reason, if they were ether like how she loves the rain she wouldn't need Gamma or Annie to clear them out the way. Also why she'd prefer Gunnerkrigg because no matter what there's never that many people around to be nobodies except in the bad cases
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Post by Gemminie on Sept 17, 2020 12:29:56 GMT
I assume these questions are rhetorical and meant to further your own speculation along because I haven't got the faintest idea. Yes, exactly -- nobody but Tom knows; I'm just asking speculative rhetorical questions. Yes, names seem to be very important in this story. It's still possible that the Court planned the Omega Project before they started finding and labeling anomalies, or whatever they would call the people/things/events the project is concerned with. But the ambiguity surrounding Gamma's name (was she already named Gamma, or did the Court name her that?) may indicate that all of this speculation is just that, and that Zimmy and Gamma aren't related to the Omega Device at all. Who knows? Tom, most likely.
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Post by bedinsis on Sept 17, 2020 16:04:52 GMT
To get back to main part of my speculation: is there any scientific process that is symbolically expressed with a zeta where there is a dampening factor symbolized via a gamma? It would make sense that if they were given identification by the court that they would give names that alludes to their attributes. I did some research. What I discovered almost made me exhale "Eureka!", but it's possible that I've made the wrong call. To get anywhere I needed to see what gamma and zeta are used for in science, and the natural first stop was Wikipedia. Gamma comes before zeta in the Greek alphabet so it has more uses than zeta. I therefore followed the latter. I eventually arrived at the Riemann zeta function, which was most interesting. This zeta-function is defined over the complex number plane, i.e. it deals with numbers that are both real and imaginary. A key aspect of it is whether it converges to a real number, which happens when the numerical input's real part is greater than 1. Otherwise it won't converge to a real number or won't converge at all. When it converges it can also be expressed with the gamma function as part of it. I repeat: The zeta-function has to deal with things that are both real and imaginary and it frequently reaches states that are incredibly indeterminate and the only times it reaches a stable state is when the Gamma function is present. Sounds like someone we know? Sounds like something scientists would name interesting test subjects for?
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Post by pyradonis on Sept 17, 2020 16:16:42 GMT
To get back to main part of my speculation: is there any scientific process that is symbolically expressed with a zeta where there is a dampening factor symbolized via a gamma? It would make sense that if they were given identification by the court that they would give names that alludes to their attributes. I did some research. What I discovered almost made me exhale "Eureka!", but it's possible that I've made the wrong call. To get anywhere I needed to see what gamma and zeta are used for in science, and the natural first stop was Wikipedia. Gamma comes before zeta in the Greek alphabet so it has more uses than zeta. I therefore followed the latter. I eventually arrived at the Riemann zeta function, which was most interesting. This zeta-function is defined over the complex number plane, i.e. it deals with numbers that are both real and imaginary. A key aspect of it is whether it converges to a real number, which happens when the numerical input's real part is greater than 1. Otherwise it won't converge to a real number or won't converge at all. When it converges it can also be expressed with the gamma function as part of it. I repeat: The zeta-function has to deal with things that are both real and imaginary and it frequently reaches states that are incredibly indeterminate and the only times it reaches a stable state is when the Gamma function is present. Sounds like someone we know? Sounds like something scientists would name interesting test subjects for? Great that you made this research! I admit I tried to read the article about the Riemann zeta function some days ago already, but it was just too math-heavy for me.
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Post by blahzor on Sept 18, 2020 1:52:30 GMT
anyone else think that Kat tells them to make a EVAC protocol due to a attack like what happened
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Post by blahzor on Sept 18, 2020 15:50:14 GMT
2 pages from now it shows Coyote notice the bird time manipulation thing and plans
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Post by blahzor on Sept 27, 2020 9:39:09 GMT
Ok my only theory of Coyote's end game is his original game. Get Rey to be powerful like him. Not in a Loup way but fully like him and (maybe) his trickster ways Ala www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=493He used his love for Surma to get the possession power. He's going to use his love for Annie (go out of his way to prevent the new loops, ha the new him is Loup = loop) to get the rest and therefore kill Loup in the end and return Coyote briefly
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Post by bicarbonat on Sept 29, 2020 1:44:49 GMT
Has the question been asked re: whether Coyote has ever messed with the memories of anyone other than Ysengrin? I'm thinking more along the lines of destroyed or consumed (not swallowed and stored, a la Cronus).
I'm certainly not advocating mental assault, but as a tactic and a power, it seems odd that he'd only apply it to his right-hand man. Was he that focused on his long game, or was there something inviolable about human minds (possibly because he depends on them?)?
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