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Post by imaginaryfriend on Jul 29, 2018 0:52:06 GMT
My current wild speculation until something else happens in the comic to change it: "Loup" is actually some of Ysengrin along with the parts of Coyote he admired (mostly his powers). Ysengrin made the totems to hold the unwanted bits of Coyote and himself so as to transform into Loup in a similar way to how Antimony used her blinker stone to keep her anger at bay. The totems will have to be destroyed like how Ysengrin crushed Antimony's blinker stone in Ch. 34 after rejecting the explanation offered by "Loup" for why all this is/was necessary or desirable. Not sure if the totems will have to be ritually destroyed or if Antimony can just incinerate them and then do the ritual later in a direct parallel, but presumably the bone, tooth and lake-water will be needed for that ritual. |
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Post by jda on Jul 29, 2018 2:58:49 GMT
My current wild speculation until something else happens in the comic to change it: "Loup" is actually some of Ysengrin along with the parts of Coyote he admired (mostly his powers). Ysengrin made the totems to hold the unwanted bits of Coyote and himself so as to transform into Loup in a similar way to how Antimony used her blinker stone to keep her anger at bay. The totems will have to be destroyed like how Ysengrin crushed Antimony's blinker stone in Ch. 34 after rejecting the explanation offered by "Loup" for why all this is/was necessary or desirable. Not sure if the totems will have to be ritually destroyed or if Antimony can just incinerate them and then do the ritual later in a direct parallel, but presumably the bone, tooth and lake-water will be needed for that ritual. 10 thousand cookies on this prediction, please |
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Post by speedwell on Jul 29, 2018 20:09:13 GMT
So... Coyote gave Ysengrin his strength.
But all his gifts are imperfect.
We talked about this before but we've completely forgotten it in the chaos.
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Post by todd on Jul 29, 2018 23:52:40 GMT
So... Coyote gave Ysengrin his strength. But all his gifts are imperfect. We talked about this before but we've completely forgotten it in the chaos. Good point. Is the transformation (particularly on the mental level) into Loup the nasty side effect for this one? (Or was that more due to Ysengrin killing and eating Coyote?) |
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Post by pyradonis on Jul 30, 2018 11:17:59 GMT
Hm. When it happened, most readers (me included) assumed, the nasty side effect was boiling rage.
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Post by speedwell on Jul 30, 2018 12:41:55 GMT
Hm. When it happened, most readers (me included) assumed, the nasty side effect was boiling rage. Me, too. But Ysengrin already HAD that. It's got to be more subtle. |
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Post by Runningflame on Jul 30, 2018 19:09:43 GMT
Yeah, at this point it may be impossible to distinguish between the effects of the gift of strength and the effects of eating Coyote.
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Post by mturtle7 on Jul 30, 2018 22:09:11 GMT
So... Coyote gave Ysengrin his strength. But all his gifts are imperfect. We talked about this before but we've completely forgotten it in the chaos. Good point. Is the transformation (particularly on the mental level) into Loup the nasty side effect for this one? (Or was that more due to Ysengrin killing and eating Coyote?) Well, there did seem to be a particularly monstrous transformation even before the Loup event, but Ys may have been the type to see that as a positive. Maybe the question is, what would have screwed up Ysen's plans the most? Renard got his possession powers in order to woo Surma, and ended up murdering her friends thanks to the flaw in the gift. Ysengrin (probably) got the tree powers to become a more feared and respected servant of Coyote, and then he ended up with a pathetic body and constant shakes "like an old man". Since Ysengrin is looking to scare the humans this, so I'm guessing that now, even if Loup does try to attack the Court again, he'll fail and lose all enthusiasm for it just like last time. |
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Post by pyradonis on Jul 31, 2018 16:09:57 GMT
Good point. Is the transformation (particularly on the mental level) into Loup the nasty side effect for this one? (Or was that more due to Ysengrin killing and eating Coyote?) Since Ysengrin is looking to scare the humans Or the nasty side effect is looking less scary and more like an insane Pokémon.  |
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Post by madjack on Aug 5, 2018 14:09:17 GMT
Loup's blue fur in the last panel looks like water putting out Annie's fire. I'm not sure if I like that symbolism at fucking all, Tom.Borrowed from the page thread, but there might be more symbolism here than appears at first glance. Here is Jones' wandering eye symbol, and according to the info on this webpage (from the alchemy discussion thread) it very much looks like it could be either gold or sun bordered by fire and water. The source of the fire is obviously Annie, but now it could be that the water is representative of Coyote, given how he has been depicted 'flowing' through the ether and the real world, and now Loup. Given how gold is a very non-reactant material, this could have been foreshadowing/underlining her presence as a separating agent for Annie and Coyote's interactions, which is why Loup might have gotten rid of her. There could be a couple of other reasons behind the eye as well, a few of which have probably been speculated to death already, such as Jones(Gold) and Eggers(Lead) relationship, given that one of the goals of alchemy is to turn the latter into the former. |
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Post by keef on Aug 7, 2018 21:41:01 GMT
How much of Coyote's aggression against the "Broken Man" can be traced to jealousy? Remember when Mort stated, trying to explain why the guides showed themselves to her, that the first time he met Annie he noticed how attractive she was? How Coyote invites her to the forest, first time he sets eyes on her?
Remember how beings of, or related to, the etherium all seem to be drawn to her? Well in some cases after trying to kill her of course, but that's just ritual. Remember the humourless grin when Coyote sends Annie on her way after he told her about the "big secret"? So jealous that Ysengrin, and not he, is Annie's best friend in the forest. In his own way, more possessive than caring, he might be in love with her/Surma/the Fire. I speculate (please adjust your tinfoil hat) that at some point in the comic, Coyote will offer Annie a deal; he will marry her, " cure" her and give her the possibility to have a child, (or more than one!) and live. He'll probably throw in some threats and promises for good measure. Obviously she will turn him down. Ahem. Not good enough (yet) to claim cookies, but who knows. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 24, 2018 16:31:17 GMT
So, when "Loup" started talking about a "series of interconnected systems" that Coyote constructed that held the forest together and grew stronger when in disarray, and that Ys' "feeble, regimented mind" had made weaker, I wasn't sure what he was talking about. Now that we know for sure that "stopping activity" means stopping time I think I understand and in hindsight the symbolism of that page is fairly obvious. He's talking about the same thing Coyote was talking about here (the "see the mighty trees, the strong bones of my body, yadda yadda, speech). Coyote didn't build them so much as the branches became extensions of Coyote when Coyote arrived by virtue of his nature. Ysengrin's mind isn't able to run/coexist with/subordinate itself to all of the natural processes in the same way that Coyote could because Ys isn't a god. He's used to having one body. |
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Post by mturtle7 on Aug 24, 2018 19:11:33 GMT
So, when "Loup" started talking about a "series of interconnected systems" that Coyote constructed that held the forest together and grew stronger when in disarray, and that Ys' "feeble, regimented mind" had made weaker, I wasn't sure what he was talking about. Now that we know for sure that "stopping activity" means stopping time I think I understand and in hindsight the symbolism of that page is fairly obvious. He's talking about the same thing Coyote was talking about here (the "see the mighty trees, the strong bones of my body, yadda yadda, speech). Coyote didn't build them so much as the branches became extensions of Coyote when Coyote arrived by virtue of his nature. Ysengrin's mind isn't able to run/coexist with/subordinate itself to all of the natural processes in the same way that Coyote could because Ys isn't a god. He's used to having one body. Although actually, Ysengrin has recently gained a lot of experience in having command over all the trees in Gillitie Forest. He's not entirely incapable of controlling processes outside his original body, which is probably why Coyote's Forest systems have only been weakened, rather than halted altogether. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 24, 2018 22:11:28 GMT
Ysengrin's mind isn't able to run/coexist with/subordinate itself to all of the natural processes in the same way that Coyote could because Ys isn't a god. He's used to having one body. Although actually, Ysengrin has recently gained a lot of experience in having command over all the trees in Gillitie Forest. He's not entirely incapable of controlling processes outside his original body, which is probably why Coyote's Forest systems have only been weakened, rather than halted altogether. Didn't say he was entirely incapable, but I figure the level of control that Ysengrin had over the trees of Gillite is nothing like what he has now. If you look at the patterns among the bones of Coyote on that page you can see one panel that look like parallels and meridians (of a globe) and others that look like tilled fields, terraced farming, wood grain, and water. Those are things that would be expected but you can also see a number that look like cell structures and if that is the case that would explain why "Loup" has decided to halt things instead of letting them run amok, when he apparently thinks disorder makes them (and by extension him) stronger, or even running them in a sub-optimal way. |
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Post by madjack on Aug 25, 2018 1:56:53 GMT
Two things. First: Coyote "being" the forest in some sense could shed some new light on this page as well, given the way he talks about responsibility and ruling. It also raises questions on just what the Court is doing to become gods if being a god involves being a part of the fabric of your reality. Like why they don't want to bridge the machine mind and human body. I'm also intrigued with the use of the word 'halt' in this context, given its use in computer systems. Second: My cookies are still firmly in the 'time skip coming right up' corner, and this is a perfect way to set it up. An afternoon in this frozen forest could be anywhere from days to decades outside it. I have a sneaking suspicion that Tom is holding a question time with the characters because this could be the last time we'll see them as we know them now. Proper unbacked wildspec: Annie will end up at school again... With the current generations' kids. (I don't really believe this but... It could happen, and if it did, school probably wouldn't be a huge focus). |
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Post by fia on Aug 25, 2018 23:34:08 GMT
I am thinking this page, where Coyote talks about taking a life "without letting it escape", may prove to be very important. I am also thinking perhaps Kat is the closest being, next to Diego, to figuring it out, or figuring out something like it. My craziest theory (but I see others sharing it in the forums) is that the Court might be trying to do something like make a Philosopher's Stone (the Omega Device? but whatever does that have to do with mating slugs?) to prevent people dying or something (which is why it would make sense for Tony to brashly believe he could help Surma), to control space and time, or at least to be able to predict every event. The mysterious thing for me, of course, is that the Court clearly cares for the 'etheric sciences' and has at least two not-totally-human Houses, Foley and Chester, so it's not about humans vs. animals or science vs. magic; and they can't possibly intend not to create any more ether, can they? Or is that what the power stations are for, to keep collecting ether even when people stop dying so often? Or maybe they are still okay with death occurring, just not inside the Court? That's why they call it Wildspec. |
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Post by fia on Aug 25, 2018 23:36:24 GMT
Further theory: maybe Jones is semi-allied with the Court because she wants to stop her human companions from dying, or figure out how to die herself. Maybe she wants company. It's like if you were the only human and all your friends were butterflies – that would be pretty sad.
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Post by faiiry on Aug 26, 2018 6:27:37 GMT
Really, really, really wild speculation that I don't even think will come true, but throwing it out there anyway: Loup will be defeated by Annie ceasing to believe in his existence. Very tenuous evidence found in chapter 39.
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Post by speedwell on Aug 26, 2018 16:52:04 GMT
Really, really, really wild speculation that I don't even think will come true, but throwing it out there anyway: Loup will be defeated by Annie ceasing to believe in his existence. Very tenuous evidence found in chapter 39. Not as far out as you think. We have seen time after time that Coyote constantly puts on acts. I'll take your suggestion a step sideways and say that Loup is no more real than a mask and that Coyote "gave" Ysengrin his strength by subsuming Ysengrin within himself. After all, some religious traditions believe a worshipper attains godhood by being absorbed into the Divine. |
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Post by Runningflame on Aug 30, 2018 14:36:16 GMT
This is serious spec, not wildspec, but it got a bit long for the page thread: Coyote said he wanted to experience Death. Maybe, he planned on experiencing it through Loup. Why kill off a main character, when you can experience the death of a new expendable character? That seems rather fourth-wall Coyote to me. The more I think about this theory, the more I like it. Coyote wanted to experience the one thing he couldn't experience--death. But what does "death" mean? He's been a dead goose before, so whatever he wants to experience is something more than just being dead. Somebody in the past few threads postulated that the death Coyote wanted to experience is a cessation of being, in the sense that Mort and Jeanne are not anymore because they've gone into the ether. They no longer exist as persons. BUT, by definition, it's impossible to experience this, because as soon as you experience it there's no "you" left. So trickster Coyote cooks up a way that he can experience "ceasing to exist as a person" and nonetheless live to tell about it: Loup. Loup isn't just a dead goose disguise; he is his own person ( neither Ysengrin nor Coyote). But he also has some continuity of memory with Coyote (and Ysengrin). So if Loup dies (ceases to exist as a person) and splits back into Coyote and Ysengrin, I postulate that Coyote will remember being Loup, and therefore he will remember what it was like to die. So Coyote gets first-hand experience of ceasing to exist, without giving up his own existence. Of course, Loup will be pretty resistant to the idea of dying (who isn't?), which means that Coyote had to set up Loup's destruction in such a way that Loup wouldn't see it coming. Thus the sequestered memories, and perhaps the tooth. Loup is zany and thinks himself a trickster, but he's easily fooled. I think his spiel about Coyote wanting to die is mostly correct, except for the assumption that Coyote got what he wanted when Ysengrin killed him. On my reading, Coyote hasn't actually died at all--not in the sense of personally ceasing to exist. Based on Loup's present-tense verbs and his manifestation of Ysengrin, I believe that Coyote still exists inside Loup somewhere. But when Loup breaks apart into his component halves again, there will be no more Loup at all. Loup will truly no longer exist. And Coyote will come out of it having lived through the whole thing. Pretty clever. |
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Post by speedwell on Aug 30, 2018 18:52:40 GMT
This is serious wildspec  IF Coyote wanted to die/"die", what odds he wanted Annie to be his psychopomp so he could have some sort of adventure there... wherever "there" might be... |
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Post by fia on Sept 1, 2018 15:32:27 GMT
Okay, totally crazy, but the idea was funny in my head, and that I think makes it plausible:
So what if Coyote cooked up this whole plot only after meeting Annie. What if he actually loves her? (Like, why should we think Loup is lying about that?) Maybe he saw how walled-in she was by the Court and how unhappy she was with her father and thought that one way to get the Court to respect, love, and accept her was to give her a challenge so big and seemingly insurmountable that, were she to solve it for the Court, she'd be a hero?
So he set it all up (along the way maybe hoping to help Ysengrin), made himself the bad guy while keeping Ysengrin in check, and then let loose once Annie was just grown enough and strong enough to take on a chaotic being like Loup. Because, you know, Coyote is nuts (and also just enjoys causing a racket). It is possible Coyote did actually want to die, but maybe his reason for wanting to die is not mere self-interest.
That would be a fun story. Possibly a groaner, though. But I wouldn't necessarily put it past the plot to go there.
There's also the further fact that Coyote even seemed attached to Surma, and maybe hearing she was gone did genuinely make him sad. The Stibnites are a fun, trickstery bunch themselves, and he loves a fellow trickster. Maybe he intends to help Annie out in some further way, but it seems like that is plausibly a game he would play.
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Post by dramastix on Sept 1, 2018 21:24:45 GMT
So speaking of Chekov's Guns. We've established that Annie's developed the power to see the effect of things in the ether, and that sort of played a role in fight with Jeanne, because she too could see the link between the two of them (though I think she could have figured out that Parley was protecting Andrew even without the strings). That being said, seems like there's further to go with Annie's new ability - what if she's able to go back to the court and see what the significance of the bone and water are before she returns them to Loup, and uses that knowledge against him? Really, it seems like a power that's going to come in handy a few times - at some point Annie's going to be able to see Kat's MechaGoddess even when Kat herself is not projecting into the ether, 'cos we've definitely not wrapped up that conversation. And finally Kat is going to have to come to terms with her place in the world. |
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Post by warrl on Sept 6, 2018 4:29:21 GMT
Extending further along that thought:
Loup wants the bone, and the water, and the tooth brought to him to reconstitute his power.
Coyote wants George and Andrew and Antimony, using those three items (and whatever else seems appropriate), to defeat Loup and reconstitute Coyote (and possibly Ysengrim).
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Post by saardvark on Sept 6, 2018 12:48:33 GMT
Extending further along that thought: Loup wants the bone, and the water, and the tooth brought to him to reconstitute his power. Coyote wants George and Andrew and Antimony, using those three items (and whatever else seems appropriate), to defeat Loup and reconstitute Coyote (and possibly Ysengrim). and you've got the goose bone (air), Coyote water (water), tooth (earth), combined with Annie herself (fire) to give you a nice quartet in keeping with the Alchemical theme throughout.... a union of all the essential elements. |
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Post by bedinsis on Sept 13, 2018 20:00:49 GMT
The Afterlife Guides have gotten an IOU on Annie which means she must perform an Afterlife Guidance when they call. It's also known that they for some reason never pursued her mother to guide Jeanne even though they share the bond of fire elementals. Also, Afterlife guides are forbidden from interfering in the realm of the living. I think that's not merely a description of what's required of them, it seems to fit their entire philosophy/temperament. They seem to be creatures that know that what will happen, will happen, and are not bound by many emotions in regards to this, apart from ensuing that it will happen. What's more they aren't really jerks; they might have not guided Surma, but that was because they were unable to, nothing else. The above things are not really relevant to my actual prediction, which is the following: The person that Annie will be forced to guide as part of the IOU is Kat. Notice how both Annie's guidance of Mort and Jeanne involved Annie staying behind while the dead ones departed to an illuminated place. Compare that with when they entered the cherry tree room, an action which followed Annie talking about that Kat would leave her. |
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Post by madjack on Sept 14, 2018 3:45:22 GMT
Is that a significant enough event to extract a favour for? It sounds like something Annie would want to do herself anyway, unless there are weird conditions attached or something.
While Annie may end up taking Kat into the ether, I think it's looking more likely that yes, Kat will become some sort of etheric entity at the end, and Annie will have to seal that for her by taking her in for good (Paz is really unlucky).
But I don't think that will be what the 'pomps want Annie for. I can't remember where it was posted, here or somewhere else, but someone once suggested that the treatises could be religious artworks from the robot cult. Assuming there's any validity to that, it would make sense for Kat to have a prominent place in them, but Annie as well? I think she will be there because while Creator Kat made the robots human's equals in life, the favour the 'pomps want will be for Annie to take any organic-bodied robots into the ether, making them equals in death too. And at least some of them will have to die to bring Kat's legend into the ether.
This also means they'd be taking Jeanne's legend into the ether too, so we may not have seen the last of her...
I can't figure on why they'd do something like that though, unless they want to help create a new etheric force to counterbalance an unchained god in Loup/Coyote, given how the former mentioned he could squash them in a heartbeat.
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Post by OGRuddawg on Sept 25, 2018 22:42:41 GMT
Wild spec on the nature of the Court.
We already know that the Court was created from "the seed Bismuth," but we don't get much more explanation than that besides it being a combination of technology and etheric design/forest magic. There have also been multiple references to the seed growing quickly and overtaking the forest. My wildspec applies to the expanding quality of the Court. What if the seed Bismuth contained or collected something similar to dark matter and dark energy???
We don't know much about dark matter irl, but one property we have observed is the repulsive force that is one of the main drivers of the expanding universe. If the seed Bismuth had some dark matter/energy qualities merged with plantlike ability to grow, it may explain why the Court is so huge and empty. The Court grew (and may still be growing on sides that do not border the ravine???) AND expanded after being planted/activated. The Court is huge, and Jones mentioned that it is not a very easy place to find. Could the addition of dark matter and energy, which is notoriously difficult to directly observe, help shield the Court from the eyes of the normal world?
I know we don't know much about dark matter and energy, but I thought it was a fun wildspec/potato to share. There isn't much direct evidence for this in the comic, either. Hopefully the full mystery is revealed before the completion of the comic, because this particular nugget of GKC history has always fascinated me to no end.
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Post by mturtle7 on Sept 28, 2018 5:05:38 GMT
Wild spec on the nature of the Court. We already know that the Court was created from "the seed Bismuth," but we don't get much more explanation than that besides it being a combination of technology and etheric design/forest magic. There have also been multiple references to the seed growing quickly and overtaking the forest. My wildspec applies to the expanding quality of the Court. What if the seed Bismuth contained or collected something similar to dark matter and dark energy??? We don't know much about dark matter irl, but one property we have observed is the repulsive force that is one of the main drivers of the expanding universe. If the seed Bismuth had some dark matter/energy qualities merged with plantlike ability to grow, it may explain why the Court is so huge and empty. The Court grew (and may still be growing on sides that do not border the ravine???) AND expanded after being planted/activated. The Court is huge, and Jones mentioned that it is not a very easy place to find. Could the addition of dark matter and energy, which is notoriously difficult to directly observe, help shield the Court from the eyes of the normal world? I know we don't know much about dark matter and energy, but I thought it was a fun wildspec/potato to share. There isn't much direct evidence for this in the comic, either. Hopefully the full mystery is revealed before the completion of the comic, because this particular nugget of GKC history has always fascinated me to no end. Ooh, I LIKE this idea! Can I also suggest that the original Seed was a Forest/etheric artifact that just used magic to collect dark matter and "grow" from it, and then the Court founders used more technological means to allow to "grow" into artificial buildings? It's seems like the sort of collaboration they would make. |
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Post by OGRuddawg on Oct 1, 2018 0:44:03 GMT
Wild spec on the nature of the Court. We already know that the Court was created from "the seed Bismuth," but we don't get much more explanation than that besides it being a combination of technology and etheric design/forest magic. There have also been multiple references to the seed growing quickly and overtaking the forest. My wildspec applies to the expanding quality of the Court. What if the seed Bismuth contained or collected something similar to dark matter and dark energy??? We don't know much about dark matter irl, but one property we have observed is the repulsive force that is one of the main drivers of the expanding universe. If the seed Bismuth had some dark matter/energy qualities merged with plantlike ability to grow, it may explain why the Court is so huge and empty. The Court grew (and may still be growing on sides that do not border the ravine???) AND expanded after being planted/activated. The Court is huge, and Jones mentioned that it is not a very easy place to find. Could the addition of dark matter and energy, which is notoriously difficult to directly observe, help shield the Court from the eyes of the normal world? I know we don't know much about dark matter and energy, but I thought it was a fun wildspec/potato to share. There isn't much direct evidence for this in the comic, either. Hopefully the full mystery is revealed before the completion of the comic, because this particular nugget of GKC history has always fascinated me to no end. Ooh, I LIKE this idea! Can I also suggest that the original Seed was a Forest/etheric artifact that just used magic to collect dark matter and "grow" from it, and then the Court founders used more technological means to allow to "grow" into artificial buildings? It's seems like the sort of collaboration they would make. Sounds like something they would do, although how the forest creatures came to discover dark matter and a way to manipulate and collect it is not really clear. How would etheric beings know what dark matter is, unless dark matter interacts with the ether differently than normal matter? I like my wildspec and your idea, but both topics are still not really explored much in GKC proper. I really hope that the nature of the seed Bismuth and its construction are revealed. |
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