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Post by Refugee on Oct 30, 2015 18:07:17 GMT
Perhaps the best way for Annie to recover Reynard is to reconcile with her Father.
She's a diplomat, of sorts, so being diplomatic isn't a bad way to start.
Plus--and I know this may upset some folks here--it is a good thing to heal one's family, wherever possible. She loves her Father, it seems, and it would hurt her to deepen the breech.
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Post by Daedalus on Oct 30, 2015 19:11:41 GMT
She's thinking of him with her own symbol on his head, not Kat's. Was she so lost to herself during those first days that she doesn't quite remember what happened, or does she just expect Kat to hand her back the leash as though Kat was taking care of her dog while she was on vacation? It also may be that she just thinks of him with her symbol on his head. After all, he was bound to her for years, and Kat only was handed control relatively recently. (shrug)
But can they trust him? He's been alive for who knows how long, maybe eons. And until just a few short years ago he was willing to kill whoever he had to, including Annie, to get out of the Court. Or even just to get what he wanted. Has he really changed? Renard is a "few hundred years old" (according to the Word of Tom). Barring timey-wimey shenanigans, he can't be more than 900 years old, since that's when Ysengrimus was first written (the source material for the Reynard Cycle). Unlike Coyote, who is ageless. However, realize that he had never killed anyone before his love was manipulated by Coyote to kill Daniel. His desperation after years of imprisonment and possibly torture led him to try and kill Annie to escape, something he has regretted every second of every day afterward. His gigantic guilt complex over these two actions was the entire thrust of Chapter 42, and it seems ridiculously out of character for him to suddenly flip back to amorality. Especially since as far as we can tell, he had always cared for humans and was never willing to kill before Coyote coerced him. Plus, you know, he was willing to sacrifice himself for Annie way back in Chapter 14, and their bond has only gotten stronger since. So, in conclusion, yes. I do think he has really changed, and that Tom has shown us this in every way possible. Plus--and I know this may upset some folks here--it is a good thing to heal one's family, wherever possible. She loves her Father, it seems, and it would hurt her to deepen the breech. I don't think many people will disagree with you on this, actually. If Annie and her father can reconcile, that would be amazing (though it would be better had Anthony been the one to initiate the reconciliation). That being said, I have my doubts on whether this will actually be possible. But we can always hope! |
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Post by keef on Oct 30, 2015 21:29:05 GMT
he can't be more than 900 years old, since that's when Ysengrimus was first written (the source material for the Reynard Cycle). Not necessarily. He probably existed in spoken folklore long before. He never killed a human, but originally he is portrayed as a thief, conman, rapist, and murderer. As Van den vos Reynaerde and Ysengrimus are fables, the victims are sentient animals. (I noticed I missed a chance to spread the Word of Digger.) But I agree Tom makes Coyote say Renard loooves humans. Of course that's a bit odd, as he, and foxes in general were seen as quite unsympathetic in the middle ages, so humans surely didn't love him. I like to imagine Rey's character changed because of all the bowdlerized children's books with him as a the hero. If you go back and review what she's said this chapter it suggests that, while things are better, her perspective could use some improvement. Talking about heroes... Annie is never a saintly character, and at times annoying, arrogant and even cruel. All young Mr. Siddell's characters till now (except Hetty) are like that; recognizably human. I hope and trust it stays this way. |
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Post by gunnerwf on Oct 30, 2015 21:36:11 GMT
next chapter is going to be a Zimmy and Gamma chapter, I'm calling it.
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Post by warrl on Oct 30, 2015 21:48:01 GMT
However, realize that he had never killed anyone before his love was manipulated by Coyote to kill Daniel. Coyote and Surma. Although I don't know that Coyote was aware, before giving Renard the power, that Renard taking over a body and then leaving it was fatal to that body. And I doubt Surma was even aware that Coyote could grant Renard that power. Still, the manipulation was deliberate. And Surma was doing it at the Court's direction, with the intent to lure him over to the Court and somehow trap him there - although I don't know why the Court thought that would be a good idea. |
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Post by Daedalus on Oct 30, 2015 21:59:52 GMT
Although I don't know that Coyote was aware, before giving Renard the power, that Renard taking over a body and then leaving it was fatal to that body. And I doubt Surma was even aware that Coyote could grant Renard that power. Still, the manipulation was deliberate. And Surma was doing it at the Court's direction, with the intent to lure him over to the Court and somehow trap him there - although I don't know why the Court thought that would be a good idea. It's heavily implied that Coyote deliberately caused his 'gift' to Renard to malfunction for kicks. (And that he did the same thing to Ysengrin's gift as well.) And I forget in which chapter, but Jones says that the Court wanted to trap him to prevent Coyote from giving Renard powers with which he could attack the Court (as Coyote had already sworn not to take action against them, but Renard had not). Basically caused the situation they were trying to avoid, ironically. He never killed a human, but originally he is portrayed as a thief, conman, rapist, and murderer. As Van den vos Reynaerde and Ysengrimus are fables, the victims are sentient animals. But I agree Tom makes Coyote say Renard loooves humans. Of course that's a bit odd, as he, and foxes in general were seen as quite unsympathetic in the middle ages, so humans surely didn't love him. I like to imagine Rey's character changed because of all the bowdlerized children's books with him as the hero. Granted; however, given that Tom seems to have written his characterization based on a lighter-and-softer version of the original fables, I'm willing to assume that the GKC-verse's Reynard did not in fact rape/steal/pillage/murder his way across Medieval Europe, whether or not his victims were human. Plus, a major theme in Tom's work is the misinterpretation of old myths (such as Basil's birthday party). |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Oct 30, 2015 22:15:57 GMT
I guess Annie was ready to admit that she had already hurt the people around her. But actually getting Renard back is going to be tricky. Anthony and the Court both think she relinquished her ownership of Renard and neither will want that reestablished. Getting all fiery about it will only reinforce their judgement. Kat retaining ownership of Renard may be the compromise everyone is willing to live with. Honestly, Kat retaining ownership is actually fairly protective for Renard, because if they don't know that she holds ownership of the doll, they cannot attempt to force her to give it up, or give more restrictive orders. As long as the Court doesn't know about Cat's symbol, why wouldn't they allow Renard be given back to Annie as long as the symbol doesn't change? Beyond them thinking that it would change the symbol of course. I believe the Court is more concerned about containing Renard than containing Annie. If Annie regains control of Renard and won't obey Anthony or the Court, then the Court is back in the same untenable position that made them bring Anthony back. So the best situation for Annie is to be with Renard, but let the Court think someone else has control over Renard. She's thinking of him with her own symbol on his head, not Kat's. Was she so lost to herself during those first days that she doesn't quite remember what happened, or does she just expect Kat to hand her back the leash as though Kat was taking care of her dog while she was on vacation? It would be quite a plot twist if Kat refused to return ownership of Renard back to Annie. it would be fair for Kat to be concerned about Annie's stability. How and where is she going to hide him is the question? With the Bots in the Bot Underground! |
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Post by todd on Oct 31, 2015 0:23:32 GMT
I believe the Court is more concerned about containing Renard than containing Annie. I suspect the same - and that it's based more on controlling him because he's powerful and they don't want him interfering in their big experiments than because of his track record. (Given the Court's own track record, it's hardly in a position to point a finger at Renard for murder and other crimes.) |
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Post by jda on Oct 31, 2015 6:09:23 GMT
(Given the Court's own track record, it's hardly in a position to point a finger at Renard for murder and other crimes.) Not that it has ever had an effect on them getting their way. |
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Post by Gotolei on Oct 31, 2015 6:46:41 GMT
Honestly, Kat retaining ownership is actually fairly protective for Renard, because if they don't know that she holds ownership of the doll, they cannot attempt to force her to give it up, or give more restrictive orders. As long as the Court doesn't know about Cat's symbol, why wouldn't they allow Renard be given back to Annie as long as the symbol doesn't change? Beyond them thinking that it would change the symbol of course. I believe the Court is more concerned about containing Renard than containing Annie. If Annie regains control of Renard and won't obey Anthony or the Court, then the Court is back in the same untenable position that made them bring Anthony back. So the best situation for Annie is to be with Renard, but let the Court think someone else has control over Renard. I wonder if anyone else in the court has noticed that Kat's symbol is plastered all over her workshop. Though for what it's worth, Rey could just refuse to animate so it doesn't show. At the end of the day, they're both children, both have weak moments, and the soulless clockwork machine of the court can and will gladly take advantage of (or make) weak points, or at least play on them to see what happens. Just have to figure out which kid is stronger in the long run. does the ownership contract only work for one person at a time? what happens if multiple people own a host object, eg shared between siblings? |
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Post by TBeholder on Oct 31, 2015 6:52:10 GMT
But why Muut gives him something gift-wrapped? She's thinking of him with her own symbol on his head, not Kat's. Was she so lost to herself during those first days that she doesn't quite remember what happened, or does she just expect Kat to hand her back the leash as though Kat was taking care of her dog while she was on vacation? It would be quite a plot twist if Kat refused to return ownership of Renard back to Annie. it would be fair for Kat to be concerned about Annie stability. So, not much of a twist? How and where is she going to hide him is the question? With the Bots in the Bot Underground! Yes. Kat may leave Renard with S13 and company. No shenanigans can possibly come out of this!  |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Oct 31, 2015 8:37:27 GMT
If you go back and review what she's said this chapter it suggests that, while things are better, her perspective could use some improvement. Talking about heroes... Annie is never a saintly character, and at times annoying, arrogant and even cruel. All young Mr. Siddell's characters till now (except Hetty) are like that; recognizably human. I hope and trust it stays this way. I wonder if Hetty was just too selfish, shallow, and short-lived to become gray-shaded or if she was just a bug. It would be interesting to have another chapter revisit the Hetty issue and color her in with another side; even if she was beyond hope when she appeared in the comic perhaps she wasn't always so and someone somewhere regrets that she perished. But I am suggesting Antimony aim for sanity, not sainthood. It's tough to deal with issues when you're not ready to identify them. That said, there are probably a few popular female protagonists that are driven by unresolved father issues. does the ownership contract only work for one person at a time? what happens if multiple people own a host object, eg shared between siblings? I'll guess that the owners would have to agree (or a majority would have to agree) to issue an order that he'd be compelled to obey, but he probably still couldn't lie to anyone who owns a few shares. Even so he'd be much more able to resist his new masters/mistresses indirectly if not directly. And his forehead would get crowded with symbols. |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Oct 31, 2015 14:31:38 GMT
It would be quite a plot twist if Kat refused to return ownership of Renard back to Annie. it would be fair for Kat to be concerned about Annie stability. So, not much of a twist? Twisty for Annie! |
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Post by aline on Oct 31, 2015 21:39:21 GMT
Talking about heroes... Annie is never a saintly character, and at times annoying, arrogant and even cruel. All young Mr. Siddell's characters till now (except Hetty) are like that; recognizably human. I hope and trust it stays this way. I wonder if Hetty was just too selfish, shallow, and short-lived to become gray-shaded or if she was just a bug. It would be interesting to have another chapter revisit the Hetty issue and color her in with another side; even if she was beyond hope when she appeared in the comic perhaps she wasn't always so and someone somewhere regrets that she perished. Hetty existed to give us insights about Renard. It was ok for her to be just this evil puppet who plots death against her unlucky owners, because it showed us by contrast how complex Rey's heart is. Opportunistic, desperate, and quite capabale of being merciless, but also full of remorse and sincere affection. Now that Hetty has served her purpose, I don't think we'll hear of her again. But I am suggesting Antimony aim for sanity, not sainthood. It's tough to deal with issues when you're not ready to identify them. That said, there are probably a few popular female protagonists that are driven by unresolved father issues. Yeah, Annie is getting better, but there's still a lot to deal with. Which is normal, I think. She's been forced back into herself, that must be pretty confusing. She's already starting to sort things out, though. I think she'll talk with her dad about Renard. And I'm really eager to read that conversation. |
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Post by Trillium on Oct 31, 2015 22:42:24 GMT
But I am suggesting Antimony aim for sanity, not sainthood. It's tough to deal with issues when you're not ready to identify them. That said, there are probably a few popular female protagonists that are driven by unresolved father issues. Yeah, Annie is getting better, but there's still a lot to deal with. Which is normal, I think. She's been forced back into herself, that must be pretty confusing. She's already starting to sort things out, though. I think she'll talk with her dad about Renard. And I'm really eager to read that conversation. Hopefully Anthony has got a grip on things so he can have a coherent conversation with Annie. They need to have along talk. |
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Post by TBeholder on Nov 1, 2015 2:02:42 GMT
I wonder if Hetty was just too selfish, shallow, and short-lived to become gray-shaded or if she was just a bug. (turns an eyestalk) Now, let's not cover all Arthropoda with one umbrella? Yeah, Annie is getting better, but there's still a lot to deal with. Which is normal, I think. She's been forced back into herself, that must be pretty confusing. She's already starting to sort things out, though. I think she'll talk with her dad about Renard. And I'm really eager to read that conversation. Hopefully Anthony has got a grip on things so he can have a coherent conversation with Annie. Annie over two last pages demonstrated that she can do it for two.  They need to have along talk. They're certainly going to... have words. Possibly short ones, with lots of consonants. |
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Post by antiyonder on Nov 1, 2015 6:39:02 GMT
Perhaps the best way for Annie to recover Reynard is to reconcile with her Father. She's a diplomat, of sorts, so being diplomatic isn't a bad way to start. Plus--and I know this may upset some folks here--it is a good thing to heal one's family, wherever possible. She loves her Father, it seems, and it would hurt her to deepen the breech. Hard to say if we can expect it to happen soon. I mean Anthony's return and the effects of his actions have produced some unpleasant feelings, but I imagine it's easier to take in for readers came aboard later and didn't have to wait as long as we have. And with that in mind, would such development possibly feel like it occurred too early if pages 1487-1586 were read in one go? Although I don't know that Coyote was aware, before giving Renard the power, that Renard taking over a body and then leaving it was fatal to that body. And I doubt Surma was even aware that Coyote could grant Renard that power. Still, the manipulation was deliberate. And Surma was doing it at the Court's direction, with the intent to lure him over to the Court and somehow trap him there - although I don't know why the Court thought that would be a good idea. It's heavily implied that Coyote deliberately caused his 'gift' to Renard to malfunction for kicks. (And that he did the same thing to Ysengrin's gift as well.) And I forget in which chapter, but Jones says that the Court wanted to trap him to prevent Coyote from giving Renard powers with which he could attack the Court (as Coyote had already sworn not to take action against them, but Renard had not). Basically caused the situation they were trying to avoid, ironically. Yeah, that's how fear works. If someone's a possible threat, it's tempting to take matters into one's own hands to deal with the source of their fear without realizing that antagonizing only brings the result one hoped to avoid. Kind of like a person who's afraid of bees trying to attack a beehive and thinking it will turn out well. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Nov 1, 2015 7:53:37 GMT
I wonder if Hetty was just too selfish, shallow, and short-lived to become gray-shaded or if she was just a bug. (turns an eyestalk) Now, let's not cover all Arthropoda with one umbrella? Don't kill the messenger.  You must have noticed the pattern as well..? Antimony squishing the bug to summon Ketrak, the wisp, and Hetty? |
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Post by Refugee on Nov 1, 2015 12:23:32 GMT
You must have noticed the pattern as well..? Antimony squishing the bug to summon Ketrak, the wisp, and Hetty? I now have grave misgivings about Lindsey and Bud. What are they really doing down there?[/quote] |
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quark
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Post by quark on Nov 1, 2015 14:12:45 GMT
To be honest, I kind of don't want Kat to give back ownership now, or at all - as speedwell said, it would be like expecting to be handed the leash of a dog back. Kat may be the only one who can keep Annie from doing stupid things - when Renard protested against being given to Anthony, she just shut him up, but Kat could make her reconsider. Rey might not show it, but I think he's still hurt from that breach of trust - Annie was prepared to give him over to Anthony Carver, somebody who's speciality seem to be medical experiments, and she didn't even let him voice any objections. And I hope Kat recognises that and "keeps" him for now - while she does have her faults, she's much more grounded and stable than Annie, and she trusts Renard (she gave him permission to defend himself). And, selfish: I interpreted it as 'I was putting my own problems and feelings above everybody else.' Which she did. It really doesn't matter if it's anger or hiding from the bad things that Anthony did to her - it still doesn't excuse letting down everybody else, not in Ysengrin's eyes, and not in hers (now). |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Nov 1, 2015 20:09:31 GMT
You must have noticed the pattern as well..? Antimony squishing the bug to summon Ketrak, the wisp, and Hetty? I now have grave misgivings about Lindsey and Bud. What are they really doing down there? I'm not sure about taxonomy in the Gunnerverse but I'll go out on a limb and say that a Merostomatazon is not an Arthropod. |
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Post by aline on Nov 1, 2015 22:34:55 GMT
To be honest, I kind of don't want Kat to give back ownership now, or at all - as speedwell said, it would be like expecting to be handed the leash of a dog back. Frankly, I don't think Annie is even thinking of the ownership thing right now. The fact that Rey is wearing her symbol in that page isn't surprising. It's simply what he's looked like for the last few years. Annie probably never got to see him wearing Kat's mark in the first place. He has no mark in his doll form, and she didn't get to talk to him since the transfer of ownership in the carriage. The fact that she pictures him that way in her mind doesn't mean she is expecting to get owner rights given back to her.
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Post by Gotolei on Nov 1, 2015 23:55:40 GMT
I wonder if this might just be about getting suitable living conditions for Rey. His room back in the underwater dorms was just a cushion and a bunch of books, so even if he's stuck with Tony that shouldn't be too hard to feng shui up.
E: and the ability to leave freely to explore or whatever he does when not killing evil shrimps
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Post by goldenknots on Nov 2, 2015 2:32:49 GMT
My feeling is that Renard has grown and changed, and that the best outcome is for Annie and Kat to simply agree to give him his freedom, subject to his own opinion on the subject. In other words, just ask him what he wants. As it happens, that would hark back to Robot, early on. You may recall that he was given his freedom, and found the concept novel and moving. It wouldn't surprise me if he decided that he wanted to be free, but to outwardly "belong" to Annie, just to keep everyone feeling safe. |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Nov 2, 2015 3:06:42 GMT
My feeling is that Renard has grown and changed, and that the best outcome is for Annie and Kat to simply agree to give him his freedom, subject to his own opinion on the subject. In other words, just ask him what he wants. As it happens, that would hark back to Robot, early on. You may recall that he was given his freedom, and found the concept novel and moving. It wouldn't surprise me if he decided that he wanted to be free, but to outwardly "belong" to Annie, just to keep everyone feeling safe. I can't see the Court tolerating Reynard being free in the Court or returning to the Forest. The only realistic choice is to be, or appear to appear to be, under some kind of control. Annie already told Renard that she would let him go back to the Forest, and he did not want to leave Annie. Always wondered if the Court's surveillence program pick up on that conversation. |
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Post by goldenknots on Nov 2, 2015 3:15:42 GMT
I can't see the Court tolerating Reynard being free in the Court or returning to the Forest. The only realistic choice is to be, or appear to appear to be, under some kind of control. You're assuming they'd bother to consult with, or inform, the Court. :) |
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Post by Jelly Jellybean on Nov 2, 2015 3:52:48 GMT
I can't see the Court tolerating Reynard being free in the Court or returning to the Forest. The only realistic choice is to be, or appear to appear to be, under some kind of control. You're assuming they'd bother to consult with, or inform, the Court. I am assuming that the Court will continue to use its surveillance system to monitor people in the Court. Maybe Annie will be more careful now, maybe not. |
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Post by justcurious on Nov 2, 2015 8:08:52 GMT
I now have grave misgivings about Lindsey and Bud. What are they really doing down there? I'm not sure about taxonomy in the Gunnerverse but I'll go out on a limb and say that a Merostomatazon is not an Arthropod. Merostomata is an Arthropod class. It includes two orders Eurytrerida the extinct so called sea scorpions and Xiphosura the horseshoe crabs. Bud and Lindsey look like horseshoe crabs so I expect that they are members of that order or are at least descended from them. |
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Post by aline on Nov 2, 2015 8:09:42 GMT
You're assuming they'd bother to consult with, or inform, the Court. You're assuming the Court wouldn't pick up on this within the hour. Anja was able to make sure the contract existed, probably other people can check if need be. www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=107And the instant they know, they no longer have a reason to leave Rey in the vicinity of Annie. The Donlans and Eglamore may think differently of him now, but I doubt the Court as whole would agree for him to remain as an uncontrolled guest, given his powers and his past. No, if he's freed, it's either flee to the forest or back to the holding cell. Neither of which Renard wants. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Nov 2, 2015 10:26:40 GMT
I'm not sure about taxonomy in the Gunnerverse but I'll go out on a limb and say that a Merostomatazon is not an Arthropod. Merostomata is an Arthropod class. It includes two orders Eurytrerida the extinct so called sea scorpions and Xiphosura the horseshoe crabs. Bud and Lindsey look like horseshoe crabs so I expect that they are members of that order or are at least descended from them. The "descended" part is where I've got a problem. Granted, we've got lifeforms with some characteristics of the Arthropod but these are extremely different from known terrestrial 'pods existent and extinct. My guess is that Merostomatazon is just a name and not a class; maybe it's also a "scientific courtesy." [edit] But if it is a class then it tells us a great deal about Merostomatazon internal workings. [/edit] |
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You must have noticed the pattern as well..? Antimony squishing the bug to summon Ketrak, the wisp, and Hetty? 
