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Post by nero on Oct 9, 2015 18:50:51 GMT
So far it seems like Annie is going in order of what Anthony did when he talked to her after class. How will he react to Reynard's predicament? I'm glad that at least she's starting to complain about Anthony. Ysengrin wasn't the old Forest medium for nothing.
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Post by TBeholder on Oct 9, 2015 19:11:43 GMT
:___]_ or the Reynard confiscation The latter is ultimately her own fault. *C'mon Ys. Surely Coyote's been keeping you in the loop? Unless... OK, *NOW* you get it! That too.  Sigh. How inarticulate from a wolf's perspective. Instead of, "He made me take off my (smelly) makeup," try, "He made me remove my mother's face markings." And use "He tossed me down among the pups to humiliate me" instead of "he found out I was cheating and made me repeat a year." Yup. Annie being a Teen Whom No One Understands is kind of amusing. But of course, she's also supposed to be a trained diplomat... I'm curious as to when she will finally figure out how thoroughly messed up she is, instead of that "Oh noes! I'm angry... Now not angry, so just fine." |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Oct 9, 2015 19:57:09 GMT
Sigh. How inarticulate from a wolf's perspective. Instead of, "He made me take off my (smelly) makeup," try, "He made me remove my mother's face markings." And use "He tossed me down among the pups to humiliate me" instead of "he found out I was cheating and made me repeat a year." Yup. Annie being a Teen Whom No One Understands is kind of amusing. But of course, she's also supposed to be a trained diplomat... I'm curious as to when she will finally figure out how thoroughly messed up she is, instead of that "Oh noes! I'm angry... Now not angry, so just fine." It takes practice but adolescents can gain some perspective from trying to communicate their complaints to others, and working and reworking the same complaints. That's why they try to make kids at summer camp write letters home, and they order recruits in basic training to do the same. I hear "troubled" kids are given the same task as an exercise. I'm against the whole diary/journal thing because it leads to a temptation to do stuff to make the entries more interesting (as well as if you put it online it becomes a security risk and/or attracts oddballs). Yes, kids need support from people who understand the genuine crisis of not being able to find the right lip-gloss. The correct clothes and make-up keep one anchored in the correct parallel Earth; if the lip-gloss isn't found before the supply runs out then there is a real danger of sliding into a mirror-world where everyone is mean and cruel and Spock wears a beard (this is the adolescent version of the infinite tragedy of the skinned knee). To deny the problem exists is to deny support but you have to walk a line. And of course Anthony is a genuine [fill in the blank]. Left to herself Antimony may turn into him. |
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corvis
Junior Member
"I like this place and could gladly waste my time in it."
Posts: 56 
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Post by corvis on Oct 9, 2015 23:35:57 GMT
But everyone else has been validating my anger! *applause* |
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corvis
Junior Member
"I like this place and could gladly waste my time in it."
Posts: 56
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Post by corvis on Oct 9, 2015 23:40:10 GMT
I don't have as much to say as Ysengrin and Annie have this discussion. Tom already communicates what they're thinking so well, I feel like I haven't got anything to add.
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Post by warrl on Oct 10, 2015 0:47:54 GMT
Annie has been telling Ysengrin what Anthony HAS said to her - portions of which were at least reasonable.
The biggest issues, though, are things he HAS NOT said. Things like "I'm sorry I was gone so long" or "I'm glad I'm back with you" or "Hey, that thing you did is really worthwhile" or, perhaps most importantly, "I love you".
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Post by Seraphnite on Oct 10, 2015 3:22:50 GMT
I'm glad ysengrin is giving her perspective outside her own feelings. However, we all have gone through this journey with Annie and we (alongside kat) felt very pissed and angry at Tony. Justifiably so.
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Post by gunnerwf on Oct 10, 2015 4:13:39 GMT
I'll say this, considering his abusive relationship with Coyote he is perhaps not the best person to talk about your dad issues with.
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Post by Onomatopoeia on Oct 10, 2015 6:52:47 GMT
Annie has been telling Ysengrin what Anthony HAS said to her - portions of which were at least reasonable. The biggest issues, though, are things he HAS NOT said. Things like "I'm sorry I was gone so long" or "I'm glad I'm back with you" or "Hey, that thing you did is really worthwhile" or, perhaps most importantly, "I love you". These things that he has not said, insofar as they are issues in the first place, are irrelevant because they utterly fail to justify Antimony's actions, if anything, just highlighting how ridiculous and overblown they are: My dad didn't say that he loves me. NO ONE HAS EVER HAD A WORSE LIFE THAN ME! ♪CRAAAAAAWLING IIIIIIIN MY SKIIIIIIIIN! THESE WOUNDS THEY WIIIIIILL NOT HEAAAAAALLLL!♪ Especially in the context of trying to get Ysengrin to tell her what she wants to hear - that she was right - right at the top of the list of excuses that won't fly is "Things people didn't do". There's lots of stuff people didn't do that we can attack them for. They won't make Antimony's decisions less dumb. Item: Antimony has never once stated an opposition to the Nazi ideology. Item: There has never been a point where Antimony outspokenly disagreed with Kim Jong Un. Item: Antimony did not immigrate to America and vote Democrat. Item: Antimony did not immigrate to America and vote Republican. |
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Post by eyemyself on Oct 10, 2015 11:01:15 GMT
I'll say this, considering his abusive relationship with Coyote he is perhaps not the best person to talk about your dad issues with. So far he seems to be handling this pretty well. The old wolf may have his own issues to sort out, but for now he might be the best equiped to help Annie come to terms with hers. |
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Post by eyemyself on Oct 10, 2015 11:04:49 GMT
Let's hope he puts things in a more neutral grey, rather than the stark black and white, she's made of her situation (and herself). False dichotomies are false, after all. Very much this. There is enough culpability to go around in this situation. Annie needs help realizing both she and her dad have serious issues they need to address in order to be emotionally healthy. |
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Post by tootsiren on Oct 10, 2015 15:36:41 GMT
Shut up real-dad! Only wolf-dad understands me!
Shut up wolf-dad! You're not my real-dad!
...carry on, fox-dad.
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arzeik
Junior Member
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Post by arzeik on Oct 10, 2015 18:56:33 GMT
There's lots of stuff people didn't do that we can attack them for. They won't make Antimony's decisions less dumb. Can we atack someone for "never once stating an opposition to the Nazi ideology" in our presence? Can we blame someone for not calling for medical assistance when another person is dying next to them and nothing stops them from using a phone? What I'm trying to say is that while "a person not doing something good" is not always a thing we can blame them for, under certain circumstances, it indeed is. |
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Post by Onomatopoeia on Oct 10, 2015 21:41:29 GMT
Under certain circumstances, certainly. But Antimony doesn't fit those certain circumstances because she's not dying, or even suffering, at least not to the point where it becomes acceptable to take a metaphorical hacksaw to one's brain because her dad's a dick or because NOBODY UNDERSTANDS WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE ME!♪CRAAAAAAWLING IIIIIIIN MY SKIIIIIIIIN! THESE WOUNDS THEY WIIIIIILL NOT HEAAAAAALLLL!♪
And again, this goes double for trying to justify her stupid decisions to Ysengrin in the hopes that he will agree with her.
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arzeik
Junior Member
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Post by arzeik on Oct 10, 2015 22:15:40 GMT
From my point of view, she fits the circumstances to the point where it's understandable that she feels anger towards her father.
I wouldn't say that cutting apart a piece of herself was the wisest form of dealing with that situation. But then again I have never spent three years thinking my father is displeased with me to the point of not wanting to see me again, just to have him suddenly return and seemingly confirm my fears. Nor do I have the power of separating a part of my mind. So, as I can't even remotely suspect what my reaction would be, I don't see myself in the right to judge.
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Post by speedwell on Oct 11, 2015 6:50:00 GMT
You know, Ysengrin is a wild animal. Though wolves are generally good and involved parents, they are not like human parents. Having his mother die while he was a half-grown pup, and having his father be absent for indefinite periods or altogether, and having to make his place in his pack on his own and not getting the place he wanted or expected, and even being thrown out of his pack altogether, is certainly a very plausible scenario for a young wolf. (To be sure, Ysengrin's pack is nowhere to be seen.) It's possible he understands Antimony all too well, and then some.
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Post by sapientcoffee on Oct 11, 2015 7:33:33 GMT
Eh, that'd all be expected of wolves though, there'd be no reason to be mad at a wolfdad who's rarely there. The largest issues it seems like Antimony has with Tony is that he doesn't get across that he loves her and that he missed a few very tumultuous years, neither of which have an easy analogue. Maybe not teaching her to hunt?
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Oct 11, 2015 7:56:10 GMT
You know, Ysengrin is a wild animal. Though wolves are generally good and involved parents, they are not like human parents. Having his mother die while he was a half-grown pup, and having his father be absent for indefinite periods or altogether, and having to make his place in his pack on his own and not getting the place he wanted or expected, and even being thrown out of his pack altogether, is certainly a very plausible scenario for a young wolf. (To be sure, Ysengrin's pack is nowhere to be seen.) It's possible he understands Antimony all too well, and then some. If his mother died before he was weaned then he would have been nursed by other females in the pack, if I remember wolf society right. They play-fight to establish dominance from early on, and any misfit, runt, or proven-antisocial probably would be ganged up on and/or starved; wolves are pack hunters (co-operation is necessary) and those who don't fit in will either be culled or forced out before learning critical skills, which would probably amount to a death sentence since packs war with each other over territory and rogue males are not welcome. [This is SPARTA.] But of course this comic is a comic. A lion king scenario is theoretically possible. Antimony has a weak parallel to the Ys-mother-dying hypothesis in that she's sort of being looked after by the Donlans and other faculty members. She would probably be looked after by the Donlans more if she let them, eating meals with them and going on vacations and such. I am not sure Antimony understands why she prefers things this way; I suspect Ysengrin would have mixed feelings about her choices. In some ways Antimony has become more powerful (dominant) than her classmates (practicing magic, office of mediumship, becoming a big dumb giant) but she's a little lacking in the gaining-subordinates department among her general classmates (sure, she's got Kat but she's competing for Kat with Paz, and while Smitty may be a beta George is another alpha). |
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Post by TBeholder on Oct 11, 2015 10:18:06 GMT
It takes practice but adolescents can gain some perspective from trying to communicate their complaints to others, and working and reworking the same complaints. Of course, good communication takes exercise, like any other ability. My point is, Annie already became good at it... if a bit uneven, and unless too distracted by her temper. She got some regressin' to fix now. That's why they try to make kids at summer camp write letters home, and they order recruits in basic training to do the same. I hear "troubled" kids are given the same task as an exercise. Nah, "they" try to make them write letters simply to read. As invented by Alexander the Macedonian. Which is exactly why "they" near-deified him, of course. Yes, kids need support from people who understand the genuine crisis of not being able to find the right lip-gloss. So true. It's better for everyone when trivialities can be resolved by the close circle and with common sense, rather than letting the problems accumulate and then escalate the call.  Left to herself Antimony may turn into him. She was quite capable of talking with people and collecting friends (even if the last part was due to her nature rather than skill). |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Oct 11, 2015 19:19:47 GMT
It takes practice but adolescents can gain some perspective from trying to communicate their complaints to others, and working and reworking the same complaints. Of course, good communication takes exercise, like any other ability. My point is, Annie already became good at it... if a bit uneven, and unless too distracted by her temper. She got some regressin' to fix now. I'll agree to an extent: she became able to do it she is therefore much better than her dad. You'd have to ask the author to find out if she's good at it, maybe specifically about off-panel Jack stuff, and I suspect she's just-okay for someone her age (if not distracted by her temper or dad-issues). For a medium she's got some work to do. That's why they try to make kids at summer camp write letters home, and they order recruits in basic training to do the same. I hear "troubled" kids are given the same task as an exercise. Nah, "they" try to make them write letters simply to read. As invented by Alexander the Macedonian. Which is exactly why "they" near-deified him, of course. Nah it's demonstrably true, if they encourage summer camp kids to write letters home as opposed to leaving them to do or not do it as they choose there's fewer runaways and less incidents of homesickness. Likewise with recruits if they make letters home mandatory there's fewer absences/attempts to go off base, more recruits finish the cycle, also probably fewer fights/less overall stress and less paperwork from fewer incidents. Left to herself Antimony may turn into him. She was quite capable of talking with people and collecting friends (even if the last part was due to her nature rather than skill). Has she pretty much stopped talking to her friends (except Ys)? I think that's part of the whole regressin' thing you mentioned. |
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Post by Felliss on Oct 11, 2015 22:58:31 GMT
I may be stating the obvious but I don't see anyone talking about it and I just need to see it mentioned: It's not as much about what Tony did/didn't do upon his return (and also during his absence) but HOW he did it.
Some mention that this is a good chance for Annie to realize realize how trivial some of the "big ugly things" Tony did are - like forbiding her to use make-up.
But it's not just the fact that she can't wear make-up anymore that made her upset - it's HOW he did it. He didn't say it after class, just between four eyes like "I know I wasn't here the last three years to keep an eye on you but now that I'm here I don't appreciate you wearing make-up (at such young age?) and forbid you to wear it anymore." but instead he singled her out and humiliated her in front of everyone ("go to the restroom to wash that ridiculous make-up from your face", "the class will sit in silence until you return") during a class where she didn't have the chance or space to say anything or react in any way and when she obeyed he even scolded her for taking up too much time.
It's not just that he returned after a long absence it's HOW he returned - without a single word or a warning, simply appearing in front of her in class where she was forced to just take it as if nothing happened (you can't really start solving a personal crisis during a class) and then his first words in private - when she was happy to see him after 3 years of no contact - were that he's disappointed in her. Plus he refused to share what happened that he came back injured and without an arm.
It's not that he's making her repeat a year because she cheated or forbidding her running to the forest whenever she wants - it's that he basically almost completely isolated her from her peers and support system she built during his absence. And he didn't ask what was it that made her start cheating in the first place.
It's not that he didn't say he loves her upon his return, it's that he never said or showed affection in any way. (in front of her at least)
It's not simply that he was away - it's that he disappeared for three years without telling anything anyone and leaving any way to contact him.
However, I do like current events in the comic, because, like was already said by someone else, this will make Annie think WHY is it that these things made her upset and react so strongly. Why they're actually so bad. I agree that everyone at the court validated her reaction automatically, but Ynsengrin not taking such simple explanations can move her forward. However, it shouldn't be by realizing her anger is trivial, but by finding the true cause of her anger behind this seemingly superficial stuff.
(also yay my very first post)
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Oct 12, 2015 1:05:36 GMT
(also yay my very first post) Welcome to the forum! |
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Post by Daedalus on Oct 12, 2015 4:55:52 GMT
I may be stating the obvious but I don't see anyone talking about it and I just need to see it mentioned: It's not as much about what Tony did/didn't do upon his return (and also during his absence) but HOW he did it. I entirely agree with your points about Anthony's behavior. However, the entire forum argued extensively over this for about a month when Anthony first returned to the Court, and then for another month when we started seeing his motives/reasoning. Several members quit the forum in anger over it. People have just kind of gotten tired of talking/flaming about this issue in particular, so there has been a détente where we agree to disagree over to what degree Anthony's been justified in his actions. Hence the reason you don't see too much debate over it currently. I think the consensus is floating around "He's been a terrible father, and handled everything awfully by psychologically crippling Annie, but he does care for her in his own way"  There's a polling thread floating somewhere around that tallies our opinions. Also, I second the welcome to the forum! |
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Post by Felliss on Oct 12, 2015 5:47:25 GMT
I may be stating the obvious but I don't see anyone talking about it and I just need to see it mentioned: It's not as much about what Tony did/didn't do upon his return (and also during his absence) but HOW he did it. I entirely agree with your points about Anthony's behavior. However, the entire forum argued extensively over this for about a month when Anthony first returned to the Court, and then for another month when we started seeing his motives/reasoning. Several members quit the forum in anger over it. People have just kind of gotten tired of talking/flaming about this issue in particular, so there has been a détente where we agree to disagree over to what degree Anthony's been justified in his actions. Hence the reason you don't see too much debate over it currently. I think the consensus is floating around "He's been a terrible father, and handled everything awfully by psychologically crippling Annie, but he does care for her in his own way" There's a polling thread floating somewhere around that tallies our opinions. I know about the Tony disscussion (and about the poll), I've been lurking on this forum for years actually. (And the whole Tony debate actually made me seriously consider joining) However, I checked mainly just the current page discussion and didn't wander to other places much, so I certainly missed a lot of things disscussed outside of it. I just got a feeling people might be getting excited to see Ynsengrin being all "so? so?" and forcing Annie to explain herself for the wrong reasons (in my humble opinion, of course). But I admit I'm no good with subtlety regarding what's already a given in a discussion. Also, I second the welcome to the forum! (also yay my very first post) Welcome to the forum! And thanks! |
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There's a polling thread floating somewhere around that tallies our opinions.