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Post by matoyak on Oct 8, 2015 1:22:02 GMT
For one, he took that back to a degree at the time, saying her reaction was justified given what she learned that day. For another, 'You are weak' implies she's not doing something because she can't. His 'So?' seems to imply she's not doing something but there's no reason for her not to, because she can do it. Getting hung up on the words being used. I didn't say he was saying the same thing, or implying the same thing by saying "So?", I said it has the same feel. |
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Post by gunnerwf on Oct 8, 2015 3:29:35 GMT
Notice the Rabbit kid blocking Smitty? I think that the Rabbit kid is realizing that Ysengrin and Annie need some time alone.
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Post by Daedalus on Oct 8, 2015 4:50:20 GMT
See, Annie's always used her father's actions as a form of excuse. Hopefully, that last panel is a revelation that she shouldn't define herself exclusively by her father's expectations. Ah, victim blaming. Always good to see. Annie's problem is not that she's using Tony as an excuse, it's that disconnecting and dissociating has been her coping mechanism all her life, so she doesn't even know she has any other option. Tony certainly hasn't shown her any other way of dealing with her problems. I'm not victim-blaming. This isn't Annie's fault, persay. Her actions are obviously unhealthy from our point of view, but it makes sense in context: I am guessing I would also blame my father for my actions were I in her place. However, she has used her father as an excuse - which is also her coping device, since no one has given her any better ways to deal with her emotions. |
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Post by TBeholder on Oct 8, 2015 5:32:41 GMT
Did you mean Broken Man ? The line didn't hold where it belongs. It's that broken. For Annie, the day Anthony returned to the court was the most important day of her life. But for the denizens of the forest . . . it was Tuesday. Do they even have those? If not, it should be downgraded to "just another day of early autumn". That's about "breaking down", not getting all burny and stompy. |
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Post by justcurious on Oct 8, 2015 5:53:55 GMT
Annie wants her father to show normal affection and approval. She is trying to get that by becoming what she sees as the type of girl she wants him to be. She is terrified of what her anger could do to their relationship so she is suppressing it at an enormous cost to herself.
But she has also been shown that this expectation is false. She knows that he has deliberately cut himself off from her emotionally. He has do this because he is wallowing in guilt over things that he did not have the power to do. He refuses to recognize this, I think at least in part because he refuses to face the limitations of his capabilities.
She is ignoring what she knows about her father. He has to change for the relationship to become healthy. She wants to get him to change by pleasing him. She cannot change him this way. She has to confront him and get him to face up to himself. Her anger is required to get his attention. She has to control rather than evade her anger and use it.
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Post by youwiththeface on Oct 8, 2015 7:15:52 GMT
For one, he took that back to a degree at the time, saying her reaction was justified given what she learned that day. For another, 'You are weak' implies she's not doing something because she can't. His 'So?' seems to imply she's not doing something but there's no reason for her not to, because she can do it. Getting hung up on the words being used. I didn't say he was saying the same thing, or implying the same thing by saying "So?", I said it has the same feel. And I was merely saying that what he said carries the opposite feel to me. Based on....well, what he said, which as you say, was different. Ah, victim blaming. Always good to see. Annie's problem is not that she's using Tony as an excuse, it's that disconnecting and dissociating has been her coping mechanism all her life, so she doesn't even know she has any other option. Tony certainly hasn't shown her any other way of dealing with her problems. I'm not victim-blaming. This isn't Annie's fault, persay. Her actions are obviously unhealthy from our point of view, but it makes sense in context: I am guessing I would also blame my father for my actions were I in her place. However, she has used her father as an excuse - which is also her coping device, since no one has given her any better ways to deal with her emotions. I don't see how Annie's using her father as an excuse. Everything she's seen from him has justified her behavior, not only because her father exhibits the same behavior, but because he was shown to 'have his reasons' and the only one calling him out on his bull is Kat who Annie can dismiss as not really knowing him or being overly emotional about it, which wouldn't be completely untrue. |
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Post by speedwell on Oct 8, 2015 7:52:51 GMT
"Are you trying to make me angry?" www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=367 This isn't the first time Annie has cut herself off from her anger, just the first time she did so actively and in full knowledge of what she was cutting off. |
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Post by Per on Oct 8, 2015 15:39:57 GMT
Notice the Rabbit kid blocking Smitty? I think that the Rabbit kid is realizing that Ysengrin and Annie need some time alone. I'm sure he's just pointing something out. "And over there I did a rabbit thing." I don't see any reason to think rabbit guy has any clue what's going on in Annie's personal life. |
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Post by Gotolei on Oct 8, 2015 18:32:46 GMT
Notice the Rabbit kid blocking Smitty? I think that the Rabbit kid is realizing that Ysengrin and Annie need some time alone. I'm sure he's just pointing something out. "And over there I did a rabbit thing." I don't see any reason to think rabbit guy has any clue what's going on in Annie's personal life. Looks like pretty awkward pointing then. Both his head and his torso are facing forward. Smitty's head isn't turned either. Doesn't need to know what's going on in her life, just needs to be able to see what's going on (Ysengrin and Annie talking, after the latter splitting off from them saying "what's wrong?" and pick up the cue. |
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Post by keef on Oct 8, 2015 19:59:39 GMT
I'm sure he's just pointing something out. "And over there I did a rabbit thing." I don't see any reason to think rabbit guy has any clue what's going on in Annie's personal life. Looks like pretty awkward pointing then. Both his head and his torso are facing forward. Smitty's head isn't turned either. Doesn't need to know what's going on in her life, just needs to be able to see what's going on (Ysengrin and Annie talking, after the latter splitting off from them saying "what's wrong?" and pick up the cue. It could be that Ys and Annie aren't paying attention to something happening in front of them. This could also explain the shocked look in Annie's eyes in the last panel (but that could also be explained as a reaction to Ysengrin's nonchalant "So?"). |
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Post by dramastix on Oct 8, 2015 22:49:39 GMT
Ah, but she cannot. What's with keeping her anger separate. That's the beauty of it. It's difficult but, to judge from her reaction to Kat's upset, not impossible. And speaking of that reaction, we were all jumping on the bone laser train at the time (myself included), but after all it doesn't appear that Tony's bone fingers were still in operation when Annie split herself in two. Was that an intentional visual call-back on Tom's part? Or just a suggestion that in the beginning Annie had to take some effort to maintain the split? (Which, if true, would suggest that the longer they stay apart, the harder it's going to be to put them back together. Do therapeutic your magic, Ysengrin, please.) Not to derail the conversation from today's comic or anything. |
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corvis
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"I like this place and could gladly waste my time in it."
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Post by corvis on Oct 8, 2015 23:54:51 GMT
It's probably been a while since Ysengrin was not the alpha. Or was an adolescent. And he probably wasn't ever in school. That aside, he's got a point. What do you mean 'alpha'? He's not the alpha now, and probably hasn't been for centuries. Coyote's alpha. |
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corvis
Junior Member
"I like this place and could gladly waste my time in it."
Posts: 56
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Post by corvis on Oct 9, 2015 0:03:29 GMT
I just hope that Annie's wode-eyed shocked expression indicates the light of reason dawning between her ears, and not a displaced rant against safe and protective father-figure Ysengrin that should better be directed to dangerous father Anthony Calling Ysengrin "safe and protective" in direct contrast to calling Anthony "dangerous" is misguided. The two of them directly mirror one another in myriad ways: 1) Strongly dislike the Court 2) Trust the Court only as far as they can throw it (which is significantly less far than Coyote can throw it) 3) Intervene roughly to stop Antimony's behavior from further wrecking her own life (her weepy refusal to face her reality as a fire elemental, her unrepentant cheating and arrogant insubordination headed directly for Expulsion) 4) Suck at expressing their thoughts when strong emotions are in play (Tony goes ice-cold and shuts down, Ysengrin goes red-hot and vents on digressions) 5) Become oblivious to others when in the grip of passionate feeling 6) Directly (and obliviously) put Antimony's life into immediate peril That One Time of extra-passionate feeling 7) Quite possibly would have killed Antimony at That One Time if a third party Knight Errant had not intervened to save her life How, exactly, is Anthony not precisely as much "the safe and protective" demigod in her life as Ysengrin? How, exactly, is Ysengrin not precisely as much "the dangerous" demigod in her life as Anthony? Bravo Tom for making such a subtle connection, and bravo you for seeing it. May I add that they are both difficult to befriend, not very trusting, and easier to talk to if you actually do manage to get to know them? And both under the thumb of a more powerful entity that appears to have ulterior motives? |
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corvis
Junior Member
"I like this place and could gladly waste my time in it."
Posts: 56
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Post by corvis on Oct 9, 2015 0:18:06 GMT
My cousin Ysengrin refuses to bend to anyone or anything, and is as unyielding as the wood that composes his body - a most fitting boon he asked of Me, yes yes! He confuses strength with rigidity, just as Fire Head Girl sees her subservience as the respect she owes her father the Broken Man. She refuses to embracing the birthright from her mother: the fire blazing bright in her soul, yearning to break free! Instead she wears masks and façades to hide herself, mimicking the man calling himself her Father. My pet wolf and My elemental friend could learn something from the other, hmm? But My playthings are more fun when they're not all...reasonable!  I might intervene soon, just to keep things interesting, when I get bored of the civility... You have a knack for putting a poetic spin on your insights, Lord Coyote. What's more: thank you for saying what the rest of us aren't. |
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Post by matoyak on Oct 9, 2015 6:22:47 GMT
And speaking of that reaction, we were all jumping on the bone laser train at the time (myself included), but after all it doesn't appear that Tony's bone fingers were still in operation when Annie split herself in two. Was that an intentional visual call-back on Tom's part? Or just a suggestion that in the beginning Annie had to take some effort to maintain the split? (Which, if true, would suggest that the longer they stay apart, the harder it's going to be to put them back together. Do therapeutic your magic, Ysengrin, please.) Not to derail the conversation from today's comic or anything. I just assumed it was one of two things: Not actually something in their world (ie: The gunk on Zimmie's eyes) and purely a visual metaphor, or steam in the "so angry steam came out of their ears" loony tunes style. Only not amusing. I always thought the bone laser idea of that one was odd. |
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Post by Gotolei on Oct 9, 2015 6:57:48 GMT
And speaking of that reaction, we were all jumping on the bone laser train at the time (myself included), but after all it doesn't appear that Tony's bone fingers were still in operation when Annie split herself in two. Was that an intentional visual call-back on Tom's part? Or just a suggestion that in the beginning Annie had to take some effort to maintain the split? (Which, if true, would suggest that the longer they stay apart, the harder it's going to be to put them back together. Do therapeutic your magic, Ysengrin, please.) Not to derail the conversation from today's comic or anything. I just assumed it was one of two things: Not actually something in their world (ie: The gunk on Zimmie's eyes) and purely a visual metaphor, or steam in the "so angry steam came out of their ears" loony tunes style. Only not amusing. I always thought the bone laser idea of that one was odd. Not sure if it's been brought up or not, but it looks vaguely similar to the elemental's manner of 'reach' shown on the last panel of this page. Maybe it's the elemental, but it's not visible on the physical plane, so it's shown as mostly transparent instead? |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Oct 9, 2015 7:20:41 GMT
It's probably been a while since Ysengrin was not the alpha. Or was an adolescent. And he probably wasn't ever in school. That aside, he's got a point. What do you mean 'alpha'? He's not the alpha now, and probably hasn't been for centuries. Coyote's alpha. Compared to Coyote, sure, but he didn't grow up with Coyote. Among other wolves, which would be what Ys would viscerally have to compare Antimony's situation to, he'd be an alpha now [either an or the alpha; probably THE alpha thanks to either his own strength and/or Coyote's gift] but would have been born a pup at some point. If Antimony wants to get her points across she needs to figure out how to connect her problems to situations he can relate to... right after she gets her own problems straight in her own mind... right after she gets her own mind back in her own mind... |
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Post by Refugee on Oct 9, 2015 11:44:41 GMT
Notice the Rabbit kid blocking Smitty? I think that the Rabbit kid is realizing that Ysengrin and Annie need some time alone. I had in fact not noticed that; thank you. I suspect that, while he might not know the details of the relationship between Annie and Ys, as a former rabbit, he is exquisitely sensitive to the moods of predators. |
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Post by pxc on Oct 9, 2015 14:26:06 GMT
Ah, victim blaming. Always good to see. Annie's problem is not that she's using Tony as an excuse, it's that disconnecting and dissociating has been her coping mechanism all her life, so she doesn't even know she has any other option. Tony certainly hasn't shown her any other way of dealing with her problems. I'm blaming Annie? Not at all. Tony's actions against her are his fault. He's been horrible to her. But the portion above about not knowing isn't true. This entire comic is the story of her learning she has other options. Your last sentence is true, Tony didn't show her other ways, but he's hardly the only one who can teach her. And it is understandable that she would initially react the way she has in the past, she was blindsided by his return. But she DOES know other (better) ways to deal with problems. After learning the truth about Tony, she buried her head back in the sand. Hence her fire-side's frustration. She has the tools and the support (though not from Tony obviously) to push forward and overcome this. But that is a choice she has to make. |
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corvis
Junior Member
"I like this place and could gladly waste my time in it."
Posts: 56
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Post by corvis on Oct 9, 2015 23:25:37 GMT
What do you mean 'alpha'? He's not the alpha now, and probably hasn't been for centuries. Coyote's alpha. Compared to Coyote, sure, but he didn't grow up with Coyote. Among other wolves, which would be what Ys would viscerally have to compare Antimony's situation to, he'd be an alpha now [either an or the alpha; probably THE alpha thanks to either his own strength and/or Coyote's gift] but would have been born a pup at some point. If Antimony wants to get her points across she needs to figure out how to connect her problems to situations he can relate to... right after she gets her own problems straight in her own mind... right after she gets her own mind back in her own mind... Oh, viscerally. I think I get you now. Okay. I actually think it kind of helps that Ysengrin's there to put Carver's actions into perspective for Annie. And then she'll tell him that he's keeping Renard. Dunno if that'll go over well. Anyway, I think he's reacting appropriately. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Oct 10, 2015 23:10:50 GMT
Compared to Coyote, sure, but he didn't grow up with Coyote. Among other wolves, which would be what Ys would viscerally have to compare Antimony's situation to, he'd be an alpha now [either an or the alpha; probably THE alpha thanks to either his own strength and/or Coyote's gift] but would have been born a pup at some point. If Antimony wants to get her points across she needs to figure out how to connect her problems to situations he can relate to... right after she gets her own problems straight in her own mind... right after she gets her own mind back in her own mind... Oh, viscerally. I think I get you now. Okay. I actually think it kind of helps that Ysengrin's there to put Carver's actions into perspective for Annie. And then she'll tell him that he's keeping Renard. Dunno if that'll go over well. Anyway, I think he's reacting appropriately. I'll wildly speculate that Ys' experience with human school is limited to wandering by one in the Wood and listening for a few minutes. He understands the concept of honor. He may understand the concept(s) of homework, quizzes and standardized testing (or he would if someone explained it to him). I'm not at all sure he understands the concept of honor when applied to homework, quizzes and standardized testing, even intellectually... though he probably isn't expecting Antimony to fall on her sword. She doesn't own one. |
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Post by Per on Oct 10, 2015 23:19:45 GMT
though he probably isn't expecting Antimony to fall on her sword. She doesn't own one. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Oct 10, 2015 23:30:57 GMT
though he probably isn't expecting Antimony to fall on her sword. She doesn't own one. The Tooth =/= sword. Too short. To commit traditional European suicide by falling on your sword you have to place the pommel firmly on the ground, lean over it, grip it by the blade, place the point under your heart, and let gravity do its thing. Maybe she could roll over it from a laying-down position? [This is your Antimony. This is your Antimony on Tooth. Any questions?] |
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Post by warrl on Oct 11, 2015 4:15:08 GMT
The Tooth =/= sword. Too short. It is a sword - a shortsword. But, Ysengrin doesn't know she has it. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Oct 11, 2015 5:11:56 GMT
The Tooth =/= sword. Too short. It is a sword - a shortsword. Wrong furnishings and style. Not much in the way of swords in native American myths. Don't make me quote Crocodile Dundee. |
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