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Post by csj on Sept 26, 2015 17:58:23 GMT
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Post by Daedalus on Sept 26, 2015 18:06:47 GMT
They can take aim at goals but if Coyote's goals are merely those ends he finds interesting, like a moth seeks light, not moral choices. If he succeeds or fails Coyote always finds the results funny, laughing at himself failing or succeeding as much as he would laugh at anyone else. Coyote may be able to do anything but genuine emotions (aside from laughter) are things he can only do as trickery. Personally, I think Coyote has emotions, but no intellectual control over them. He's hedonistic to the extreme, and his course is determined by the path leading to the most entertainment in the same way that water flows downhill. He isn't malevolent (his goal isn't to hurt people, but rather to entertain himself possibly at others' expense), but that doesn't mean he's harmless either, by any stretch of the imagination. |
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Post by keef on Sept 26, 2015 21:18:59 GMT
I agree Coyote can only act in the way he is expected to act, forced by the belief that shaped him. - The fact he has an excuse doesn't make it less arseholic. Nor does the fact that he is "helping" Annie. But it's much more than an excuse. He laughs at misery the same as he laughs at joy. Coyote can't stop acting like he does any more than Zeta can stop what her powers do and for much the same reason. They can take aim at goals but if Coyote's goals are merely those ends he finds interesting, like a moth seeks light, not moral choices. The joke here is that in the Gunnerverse predestination works the other way around. But as I said, Renard seems to have changed. So there is free will, and there is a possibility to act out of character. Not necessarily true. What if he wants "CʘYʘTE AND THE FIRE HEAD GIRL" to become a story. Of course in the end the story will be about him, but if part of it is his love for her, that love will be as real as his bones and teeth. Although it wont last as long. Personally, I think Coyote has emotions, but no intellectual control over them. He's hedonistic to the extreme, and his course is determined by the path leading to the most entertainment in the same way that water flows downhill. He isn't malevolent (his goal isn't to hurt people, but rather to entertain himself possibly at others' expense), but that doesn't mean he's harmless either, by any stretch of the imagination. I think he has mixed feelings about the way he came into existence, and the role he has to play. He may understand the Court's manipulation of the ether is a threat to him in the long run, and al his shenanigans may be aimed at sabotaging their plans. And no, malevolent he is not, but he will behave like an arse if he thinks it is funny.  As with the broken guy earlier, no black and white characters in this comic. (well City Face maybe), but as Tom said: kind of a jerk. |
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quark
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Post by quark on Sept 26, 2015 21:25:30 GMT
Very funny, Coyote. But it absolutely could be that Anthony's so self-absorbed that he just didn't notice what he did to his daughter. I don't know if that makes it worse or better.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Sept 26, 2015 23:48:41 GMT
But it's much more than an excuse. He laughs at misery the same as he laughs at joy. Coyote can't stop acting like he does any more than Zeta can stop what her powers do and for much the same reason. They can take aim at goals but if Coyote's goals are merely those ends he finds interesting, like a moth seeks light, not moral choices. The joke here is that in the Gunnerverse predestination works the other way around. But as I said, Renard seems to have changed. So there is free will, and there is a possibility to act out of character. I concede that free will exists for some in the Gunnerverse but Renard exists, whereas Coyote only exists in a sense. They are not the same. He doesn't care about her except in the sense of stimulus-response and he isn't going to. Not necessarily true. What if he wants "CʘYʘTE AND THE FIRE HEAD GIRL" to become a story. Of course in the end the story will be about him, but if part of it is his love for her, that love will be as real as his bones and teeth. Although it wont last as long. I think the confusion in the past between favor/attention and love is probably how Coyote is able to act on "love" to the extent that he does, building up a bit of belief, but I think you're confusing the semblance with the reality. I'd like to see her ask him if he loves her. [Of course, I'd also like to see her ask her dad the same q.] Personally, I think Coyote has emotions, but no intellectual control over them. He's hedonistic to the extreme, and his course is determined by the path leading to the most entertainment in the same way that water flows downhill. He isn't malevolent (his goal isn't to hurt people, but rather to entertain himself possibly at others' expense), but that doesn't mean he's harmless either, by any stretch of the imagination. I think he has mixed feelings about the way he came into existence, and the role he has to play. He may understand the Court's manipulation of the ether is a threat to him in the long run, and al his shenanigans may be aimed at sabotaging their plans. And no, malevolent he is not, but he will behave like an arse if he thinks it is funny. As with the broken guy earlier, no black and white characters in this comic. (well City Face maybe), but as Tom said: kind of a jerk.According to Formspring Coyote loved his son "as much as he was able" but when his son died he laughed. When he consoled Antimony when she was sad it was not because he cared about her, he just didn't want a sad girl around. Also, Coyote can be made sad by things stronger or smarter than him, but it follows that the reason why is that his position in the story is (or is in danger of) being usurped... and he can retake it by trickery. Are you familiar with the concept of something being raised for slaughter? A creature, let's say a cow, that has known nothing but care and protection from its owner and other humans can trustingly walk right into a slaughterhouse- despite the gore all around it and the smell of blood and death- because it has never known harm from a human hand before. Whatever happens all around it, its experiences lead to the conclusion that all will be just fine as before. Over the long haul the differences between the semblance of a caring relationship and the reality of the butcher-shop become clear. Nutritional arguments aside, I always thought that it was worth preserving a carnivorous culture simply to have this example because sometimes humans treat other humans in a similar way and the lesson needs to be rammed home to the callow lest they be one day rendered tallow. Likewise Antimony enjoys Coyote's favor because it pleases Coyote to do so for his own ends, in the service of his own existence and power. If the comic goes on long enough I have no doubt that she will find out that Coyote can be capricious... though I would argue here that he is in fact incredibly consistent if you examine the big picture... like how the ranchers are in fact consistent in how they treat cows if you examine their behavior over many cycles (generations) but an individual cow after sale to a packing plant might disagree- if it could. It has been formsprung that Antimony is aware Coyote is Coyote and all that implies when dealing with Coyote. Even so, like Ysengrin, Antimony may eventually find herself being modified to be more interesting or useful to Coyote. In this chapter perhaps it will be a reunion with her split self, and that's great. However, if he does that Coyote is not doing it from love or good intentions. |
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pigeon
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Post by pigeon on Sept 27, 2015 3:57:45 GMT
Did he ever promise to not interfere with the Court; I think I vaguely remember this but I can't find the related page. Yes that was mentioned here www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=792. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2015 9:59:43 GMT
Did he ever promise to not interfere with the Court; I think I vaguely remember this but I can't find the related page. Yes that was mentioned here www.gunnerkrigg.com/?p=792. Thanks! " When Coyote split the Court from the Forest all those years ago he promised to leave everyone on our side alone." Unfortunately, we don't have the exact wording of the promise, just what appears to be a loosely worded summary by Anja, and he seems to have broken it already if it's interpreted in the strictest sense: Coyote has not left everyone on the [Court's] side [of the Annan Waters] [entirely] alone; he's gone across the bridge and interacted with people at the Court several times. Anja already knew about that at the time she was speaking though, and yet she still seemed to think the promise meant that Coyote would not or could not harm anyone at the Court. If this is true, it means the building probably didn't have anyone in it. |
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Post by Trillium on Sept 27, 2015 15:25:06 GMT
Thanks! " When Coyote split the Court from the Forest all those years ago he promised to leave everyone on our side alone." Unfortunately, we don't have the exact wording of the promise, just what appears to be a loosely worded summary by Anja, and he seems to have broken it already if it's interpreted in the strictest sense: Coyote has not left everyone on the [Court's] side [of the Annan Waters] [entirely] alone; he's gone across the bridge and interacted with people at the Court several times. Anja already knew about that at the time she was speaking though, and yet she still seemed to think the promise meant that Coyote would not or could not harm anyone at the Court. If this is true, it means the building probably didn't have anyone in it. Interesting, apparently that doesn't keep Ysengin from sneaking shadow men or forest seeds into the Court. He did that on his own without Coyote's suggestion knowledge or consent? How about sending a robot to steal Renard away? While the incident happened on the bridge Coyote could not have know that is where Robot would meet up with Renard. Robot could cross the bridge and wander around the Court. Coyote may have made a promise but that doesn't keep him from sneaking around it. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2015 22:09:47 GMT
Thanks! " When Coyote split the Court from the Forest all those years ago he promised to leave everyone on our side alone." Unfortunately, we don't have the exact wording of the promise, just what appears to be a loosely worded summary by Anja, and he seems to have broken it already if it's interpreted in the strictest sense: Coyote has not left everyone on the [Court's] side [of the Annan Waters] [entirely] alone; he's gone across the bridge and interacted with people at the Court several times. Anja already knew about that at the time she was speaking though, and yet she still seemed to think the promise meant that Coyote would not or could not harm anyone at the Court. If this is true, it means the building probably didn't have anyone in it. Interesting, apparently that doesn't keep Ysengin from sneaking shadow men or forest seeds into the Court. He did that on his own without Coyote's suggestion knowledge or consent? How about sending a robot to steal Renard away? While the incident happened on the bridge Coyote could not have know that is where Robot would meet up with Renard. Robot could cross the bridge and wander around the Court. Coyote may have made a promise but that doesn't keep him from sneaking around it. The context of that conversation implies that Renard and Ysengrin are certainly not bound by Coyote's promise (even when they use powers that were originally given to them by him). That's why Renard was considered such a threat by the Court, even though he apparently was a fan of humanity at that time. |
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Post by warrl on Sept 27, 2015 22:13:06 GMT
Interesting, apparently that doesn't keep Ysengin from sneaking shadow men or forest seeds into the Court. He did that on his own without Coyote's suggestion knowledge or consent? How about sending a robot to steal Renard away? While the incident happened on the bridge Coyote could not have know that is where Robot would meet up with Renard. Robot could cross the bridge and wander around the Court. Coyote may have made a promise but that doesn't keep him from sneaking around it. The context of that conversation implies that Renard and Ysengrin are certainly not bound by Coyote's promise (even when they use powers that were originally given to them by him). That's why Renard was considered such a threat by the Court, even though he apparently was a fan of humanity at that time. But according to what we've been told, Renard went to Coyote and got the body-stealing power in response to Surma's attempt to draw him over to the Court's side. |
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Post by todd on Sept 27, 2015 23:39:06 GMT
Coyote may have made a promise but that doesn't keep him from sneaking around it. What else would you expect of a trickster? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2015 4:57:56 GMT
The context of that conversation implies that Renard and Ysengrin are certainly not bound by Coyote's promise (even when they use powers that were originally given to them by him). That's why Renard was considered such a threat by the Court, even though he apparently was a fan of humanity at that time. But according to what we've been told, Renard went to Coyote and got the body-stealing power in response to Surma's attempt to draw him over to the Court's side. Well, yes. The court seems to have messed up on that one, to some extent at least. On the one hand, Renard got the dangerous body-stealing power, Daniel and Sivo died as a result, and Renard became much more hostile towards the Court and more distanced from humanity in general. On the other hand, they did successfully accomplish their goal of capturing him, and he seems more suspicious of Coyote now and would probably not accept any more powers. He hasn't returned to the forest at all since killing Daniel, even just to take back his original body. In fact, I wonder now why Renard didn't have more reservations about Annie going to the forest so often to meet with Coyote and Ysengrin. Perhaps there's a more specific reason he can't return that we don't know about yet. Or maybe he just knew that any attempt to keep her away from Coyote would draw the reaction we see in this chapter. |
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As with the broken guy earlier, no black and white characters in this comic. (well City Face maybe), but as Tom said: 
