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Post by imaginaryfriend on Sept 25, 2015 12:37:57 GMT
Looks to me like Anthony's warring mind is divided into three streams. The first has (far right) a moon and sun plus an extra intaglio-looking sun behind Coyote, not sure what's up with that- maybe it's Coyote, but the blue face and green beast to the left are probably bullying/threatening the cute (Antimony?) smiley-face with the black eye. So I'll guess the first stream is Anthony's worries about bad stuff happening to Antimony [edit] in the Wood [/edit]. The second stream is a mirror-image of two figures with clown-hats, but one image with different colors, a quartered diamond in between. That's probably Anthony on Anthony, torn between his desire to control and protect his daughter and the belief that his presence is unwelcome/unwanted/unpleasant and possibly damaging. "Nobody likes clowns." The clown theme represents embarrassment. Not sure about the diamond. Maybe it just represents the core of the self. There is so little to the third stream that it's tough to interpret (is that a bacterium? A creature? And then a face? Maybe the head of a shadow-man at the bottom?) but going by the purple color and the fact that it's opposite the forest I'll say it's his thoughts on what would happen to Antimony if she stays in the Court.
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Post by linkzeldi on Sept 25, 2015 13:03:56 GMT
Whoever thought it would be Coyote to be the one to stick it to Anthony on how he's treating Antimony.
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Post by ctso74 on Sept 25, 2015 13:22:43 GMT
Can anyone make something meaningful out in Tony's mind? Or do you think it's all just abstract swirls? At first, I thought it was his undead psychopomp friends, but only one symbol matches. No Skeletor-bovine, large-billed bird, or fly. It just seems like "Dreamtime" symbols with an unknown meaning. |
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Post by ctso74 on Sept 25, 2015 13:36:36 GMT
Tony has been so focused on his own pain and so worried over possible dangers to Annie rather than ones that have actually manifested themselves that he has been unable to see Annie's pain. There is more to it. Tony is very bad at understanding others even if he tries. But Coyote is getting the message through to him that Annie is in pain. I wonder how it will appear in the retelling. Whether it will seem that a war is going on inside him, or if he'll appear to be his normal self, glance at Annie, then say something obnoxiously social inept. |
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elebenty
Junior Member
Better than bubble wrap.
Posts: 83
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Post by elebenty on Sept 25, 2015 13:41:17 GMT
And why should a forum be any different than some story around some campfire, in a distant time and place? Indeed, ever since humanity built walls to live separated from the wilderness outside we have been trying to replicate the primal experience of campfire narratives around hearths, in the theatre, and on television and computer screens. |
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Post by Trillium on Sept 25, 2015 13:57:06 GMT
Can anyone make something meaningful out in Tony's mind? Or do you think it's all just abstract swirls? At first, I thought it was his undead psychopomp friends, but only one symbol matches. No Skeletor-bovine, large-billed bird, or fly. It just seems like "Dreamtime" symbols with an unknown meaning. Tom often uses styles and symbols based on Indigenous American sources when representing Coyote and his stories. Today's page has has southwestern influences in the image of Annie surrounded by small harmless forest creatures. There seems to be a symbol over Annie's head that I don't recognize. Notice in Coyote's narrative it is all love and peace with no large threats in the forest for Annie. We know that is not exactly true. Annie has handled herself well in the forest but she has often had help from Coyote, Ysengin and Sir Jimmy Jim on different occasions depending on the hazard. Coyoty's body often has a southwestern shape covered with Pacific Northwestern tribal influenced designs and colors. These are just some of the influences but Coyote can look however he wants. If he visited Ireland he might come back with Celt designs swirling around his body. As for what is going on in Tony's head, "Dreamtime" is as good a choice as any. We are only seeing a bit of the whole picture. For the story's purpose we don't need to see any more. His mental state is a mess but we knew that. |
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Post by jombra on Sept 25, 2015 14:31:14 GMT
Whoever thought it would be Coyote to be the one to stick it to Anthony on how he's treating Antimony. No kidding. Finally, though. AT LAST THE TIME HAS COME. And it's all abstract so we don't even get to see the blank look wiped off Anthony's face...  -sigh- I wonder if anyone besides coyote will get to notice. Anja can see into the ether, it'd be interesting to see her reaction to seeing Annie split up. |
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Post by goldenknots on Sept 25, 2015 14:46:53 GMT
I wonder if anyone besides coyote will get to notice. Anja can see into the ether, it'd be interesting to see her reaction to seeing Annie split up. She saw her at the dinner, but we don't know what she saw from the ether. |
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Post by Trillium on Sept 25, 2015 14:49:01 GMT
Whoever thought it would be Coyote to be the one to stick it to Anthony on how he's treating Antimony. No kidding. Finally, though. AT LAST THE TIME HAS COME. And it's all abstract so we don't even get to see the blank look wiped off Anthony's face... -sigh- I wonder if anyone besides coyote will get to notice. Anja can see into the ether, it'd be interesting to see her reaction to seeing Annie split up. Tony is having a "Come to Coyote Meeting" over his treatment of Annie. Who would have guessed it would be Coyote heading an intervention. |
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Post by l33tninja on Sept 25, 2015 15:00:07 GMT
Can anyone make something meaningful out in Tony's mind? Or do you think it's all just abstract swirls? I think it looks like Air, Earth, and Water to me. I have no idea if this was intentional, but it is in contrast to Annie's Fire element. |
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Post by jda on Sept 25, 2015 15:35:25 GMT
Can anyone make something meaningful out in Tony's mind? Or do you think it's all just abstract swirls? Thats what I came here to ask. |
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Sadie
Full Member
I eat food and sleep in a horizontal position.
Posts: 146
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Post by Sadie on Sept 25, 2015 16:06:57 GMT
 Tony's punched and desperately happy face...  ...while the antenna of his own bone and blood stretches out...  ...and pulls forth Surma's spirit. The rest are way too abstract for me to suss. It makes sense that this is the dominant thought/memory in his mind when admonished to look at what he's done to Antimony. Now, is Tony actually looking past that act and seeing what he's doing to Annie currently? I don't know. It would strike me as too easy yet, but I've been wrong before. I'm honestly holding out for Annie herself confronting him. |
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Post by storyteller on Sept 25, 2015 16:56:16 GMT
Whoever thought it would be Coyote to be the one to stick it to Anthony on how he's treating Antimony. Well there is precedent. Zimmy was the one who intervened last time. Apparently it takes a being of great etherical ability to get Anthony to listen. Well, that help explains his marriage to Surma. |
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Post by nero on Sept 25, 2015 17:00:43 GMT
Well at least we got one Carver with long hair again.
I agree that it represents Annie's safety in the Court, his journey, and what could happen in the Forest. Maybe he'll let her go on the condition that a Court official watches her for the entire time that she's in the Forest.
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freeman
Full Member
That 70's Coyote!
Posts: 242
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Post by freeman on Sept 25, 2015 17:18:43 GMT
I'd say those three streams are his levels of consciousless. At the center blue are the things he's aware of, the internal debate he's having by his own perspective, brow is the stuff he half reckons but denies and the violet things are his true and primal motives. Also: T–V distinction, used for great effect. Well done, coyote. One of those symbols is a bear claw and the other might be a centipede, just a guess. These might be the critters he met on Walkabout in crazy land. It's me again making these sort of remarks, but I see just the "cunt symbol",aka the "long boat". Surely you all thought that too first. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Sept 25, 2015 17:47:45 GMT
Tony's punched and desperately happy face... ...while the antenna of his own bone and blood stretches out... ...and pulls forth Surma's spirit. If that blue thing's a hand and not a face that that would have to be Antimony's spirit, methinks, not Surma's because that scenic bit in the very tip has a gear-like sun and an Annan-bridge-like blank as if it's coming from the Court. Also not sure if that fits because of the symbols to the right unless Coyote was present when Antimony made the hand of glory. I was very tempted to say that the black-eyed smiley face was Anthony but "the fire" being green just didn't sit well with me, the symbols made more sense in the Wood, and the hand's short a thumb. But you may be right. |
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Post by darththulhu on Sept 25, 2015 19:06:15 GMT
Can anyone make something meaningful out in Tony's mind? Or do you think it's all just abstract swirls? The representation is quite similar to Annie's etheric self (when not cut off.) At last, a Carver with long, luscious, flowing locks of hair. |
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Post by darththulhu on Sept 25, 2015 19:14:24 GMT
Looks to me like Anthony's warring mind is divided into three streams. The first has (far right) a moon and sun plus an extra intaglio-looking sun behind Coyote, not sure what's up with that The treatise pages always use Sun & Moon mirrorings to represent the Forest and the Court, so it is the simplest way to depict their intertwined opposition and co-dependence. Deepening that, the simplest use of the "Coyote Eye" symbol is also the sun/moon symbol associated with the Forest: ʘ ... the Sun symbol. (Also: the alchemical symbol for Gold, and sometimes a modern symbol depicting hydrogen). All of that taken together, and that specific "layer of Tony's consciousness" seems to be weighing the ongoing "Court vs. Forest" conflict at the broadest level. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Sept 25, 2015 20:47:22 GMT
Tony's punched and desperately happy face... ...while the antenna of his own bone and blood stretches out... ...and pulls forth Surma's spirit. If that blue thing's a hand and not a face that that would have to be Antimony's spirit, methinks, not Surma's because that scenic bit in the very tip has a gear-like sun and an Annan-bridge-like blank as if it's coming from the Court. Also not sure if that fits because of the symbols to the right unless Coyote was present when Antimony made the hand of glory. I was very tempted to say that the black-eyed smiley face was Anthony but "the fire" being green just didn't sit well with me, the symbols made more sense in the Wood, and the hand's short a thumb. But you may be right. [edit to my previous reply] On further reflection, if Anthony thinks the fire is monstrous that would explain why it's green and has eight arms, or seven arms and a tail, so if that blue thing isn't a face then the green thing's the fire, not Antimony's spirit exactly. I still think with the Court/Forest symbols and the context that it makes more sense that he's thinking about bad stuff happening to Antimony like what happened to him when he was among etheric beings, but you may yet be right.[/edit] |
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Post by keef on Sept 25, 2015 22:02:33 GMT
The broken man looked at the girl and Coyote could see a war waging inside his mind
Coyote
laughed
at this
Arsehole.
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Sept 25, 2015 22:59:27 GMT
The broken man looked at the girl and Coyote could see a war waging inside his mind Coyote laughed
at this
Arsehole.
Really, Coyote would think that anything that isn't boring is funny. He's like a conch that is silent for silence, but with laughter instead of the sound of the sea. Calling Coyote an arsehole is like calling the sea a cruel mistress. |
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Post by elppa284 on Sept 25, 2015 23:13:12 GMT
It doesn't matter what decision Tony makes...if he doesn't ask Antimony what she feels about all of this or just ask what she wants, then anything he does can be seen as an act of betrayal in his daughter's eyes.
Let's her go to forest out of shame and guilt: 'My father does not love me'
Refuse to give her to Coyote: Confirmation that Tony does not care for the ethereal part of Antimony
That's what's so frustrating about seeing things from this narrative angle. I have no idea if he's actually communicating anything to Annie, or if she's just looking at her dad with sadface and he's completely closed off even as his mind is imploding onto itself.
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Post by keef on Sept 25, 2015 23:13:35 GMT
Really, Coyote would think that anything that isn't boring is funny. He's like a conch that is silent for silence, but with laughter instead of the sound of the sea. Calling Coyote an arsehole is like calling the sea a cruel mistress. No, it's like calling Neptune an arsehole. |
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Post by ctso74 on Sept 25, 2015 23:25:46 GMT
If that blue thing's a hand and not a face that that would have to be Antimony's spirit, methinks, not Surma's because that scenic bit in the very tip has a gear-like sun and an Annan-bridge-like blank as if it's coming from the Court. Also not sure if that fits because of the symbols to the right unless Coyote was present when Antimony made the hand of glory. I was very tempted to say that the black-eyed smiley face was Anthony but "the fire" being green just didn't sit well with me, the symbols made more sense in the Wood, and the hand's short a thumb. But you may be right. [edit to my previous reply] On further reflection, if Anthony thinks the fire is monstrous that would explain why it's green and has eight arms, or seven arms and a tail, so if that blue thing isn't a face then the green thing's the fire, not Antimony's spirit exactly. I still think with the Court/Forest symbols and the context that it makes more sense that he's thinking about bad stuff happening to Antimony like what happened to him when he was among etheric beings, but you may yet be right.[/edit] The "war waging inside his mind" could be him weighing the evils of both the Ether and the Court. Anthony does know more than a little of both. Maybe, that's why Coyoyte has the chuckles. Of course, how much does Anthony know? You saying the blue thing looked like a face, made me think of this:  That's a stretch though. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Sept 25, 2015 23:51:13 GMT
It doesn't matter what decision Tony makes...if he doesn't ask Antimony what she feels about all of this or just ask what she wants, then anything he does can be seen as an act of betrayal in his daughter's eyes. Let's her go to forest out of shame and guilt: 'My father does not love me' Refuse to give her to Coyote: Confirmation that Tony does not care for the ethereal part of Antimony That's what's so frustrating about seeing things from this narrative angle. I have no idea if he's actually communicating anything to Annie, or if she's just looking at her dad with sadface and he's completely closed off even as his mind is imploding onto itself. If Anthony actually asked Antimony what she wanted or how she felt I think empty-shell Antimony would be paralyzed and unable to generate an answer. Or possibly die of shock. But what are the odds he'll start doing that even now? We can hope, of course... Really, Coyote would think that anything that isn't boring is funny. He's like a conch that is silent for silence, but with laughter instead of the sound of the sea. Calling Coyote an arsehole is like calling the sea a cruel mistress. No, it's like calling Neptune an arsehole. Eh Neptune might actually exist in the Gunnerverse. If so then he could well be an arsehole, or he could be nice. Coyote just operates on whim and can't do otherwise. You saying the blue thing looked like a face, made me think of this: That's a stretch though. Tough to say. Blue thing looks to me like a face with an angry/menacing eye in profile facing left (its hair- it goes up! which would make it a forest dude or dude-ette which would fit with the sun/moon and the Court) but maybe it's a hand. |
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Post by sapientcoffee on Sept 26, 2015 9:15:20 GMT
The broken man looked at the girl and Coyote could see a war waging inside his mind Coyote laughed
at this
Arsehole.Coyote could laugh at the world ending. Laughter is his default setting. This doesn't make him NOT an asshole, he's just an asshole for other things. |
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Post by speedwell on Sept 26, 2015 12:27:06 GMT
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Post by keef on Sept 26, 2015 14:05:40 GMT
The broken man looked at the girl and Coyote could see a war waging inside his mind Coyote laughed
at this
Arsehole.Coyote could laugh at the world ending. Laughter is his default setting. This doesn't make him NOT an asshole, he's just an asshole for other things. Coyote just operates on whim and can't do otherwise. I agree Coyote can only act in the way he is expected to act, forced by the belief that shaped him. In the Gunnerverse the rivers are probably clogged by poisoned frogs and drowned scorpions. But laughing about someone's misery is about the most unpleasant type of behaviour I know. The fact he has an excuse doesn't make it less arseholic. Nor does the fact that he is "helping" Annie. And there is of course an exception to the rule. Rey has changed since he became Annie's, maybe her influence, maybe the different form. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Sept 26, 2015 14:36:25 GMT
Coyote could laugh at the world ending. Laughter is his default setting. This doesn't make him NOT an asshole, he's just an asshole for other things. Coyote just operates on whim and can't do otherwise. I agree Coyote can only act in the way he is expected to act, forced by the belief that shaped him. In the Gunnerverse the rivers are probably clogged by poisoned frogs and drowned scorpions. But laughing about someone's misery is about the most unpleasant type of behaviour I know. The fact he has an excuse doesn't make it less arseholic. Nor does the fact that he is "helping" Annie. But it's much more than an excuse. He laughs at misery the same as he laughs at joy. Coyote can't stop acting like he does any more than Zeta can stop what her powers do and for much the same reason. They can take aim at goals but if Coyote's goals are merely those ends he finds interesting, like a moth seeks light, not moral choices. If he succeeds or fails Coyote always finds the results funny, laughing at himself failing or succeeding as much as he would laugh at anyone else. Coyote may be able to do anything but genuine emotions (aside from laughter) are things he can only do as trickery, though he may do them more convincingly as Jolly Elfsberrys or in other bodies. If not for his ability to trick others Coyote would be so one-dimensional that he'd barely be considered a character; he'd be more of a empty deus ex crane bucket with a face painted on it. Calling him an arsehole isn't inaccurate but it only fits in the same allegorical sense that one might rightly call a bad stretch of rapids a maneater or a tough ski slope a widowmaker. Such things "require" respect if one doesn't want to risk bad consequences but there isn't any character development involved there nor will there be with Coyote in the comic. Antimony's attractiveness is drawing his attention to her but it will not lead to any change in Coyote. He doesn't care about her except in the sense of stimulus-response and he isn't going to. He's going to break the logjam with regard to Antimony's separation from the Wood, I suspect, and if he does so with her division of self more the better. |
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Post by TBeholder on Sept 26, 2015 15:04:04 GMT
It occurs to me that The Broken Man may understand, not understand or misunderstand "what you have done to her" part. Can anyone make something meaningful out in Tony's mind? Or do you think it's all just abstract swirls? Perhaps not all of it is abstract swirls, but looks like by now it mostly is. refuse to give her to the forest, coyote drops the mic, lose annie Why "drops the mic"? |
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