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Post by gwydion on Aug 5, 2015 8:10:00 GMT
Tony is turning in to Orpheus. Let's hope his journey fairs better.
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Post by justcurious on Aug 5, 2015 8:11:43 GMT
Once again demonstrating how he and Annie have some of the same faults. He had to do it all himself like Annie and did not consider asking for help. A friend would have probably been able to get him off his guilt trip.
And so because of guilt over something that he was not as responsible for as he thinks he ended up doing something that really was hurtful, his abandonment of Annie. Tragic and pitiful.
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Gauldoth Half-Dead
New Member
Contrary to popular belief, I do NOT eat children.
Posts: 42
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Post by Gauldoth Half-Dead on Aug 5, 2015 8:14:00 GMT
Ha! Sweet vindication for those of us who've remained loyal to Team Tony. I look forward to all y'all scrabbling to find new and inventive ways to demonize a guilt-stricken man with probable PTSD. I'm still withholding judgement. It hasn't escaped my notice that what Anthony thinks/thought Antimony would want (re: not living with her mother's killer) just happened to be what was wanted by and probably easiest for Anthony (not returning to the Court, as per his wishes in his own words in the previous comic, and not having to deal with Antimony). Like I said the other day, nearly everyone on the planet thinks their reasons for doing the things they do, whatever they do, are golden... at least until the consequences of those things start wandering in. Let's see how Anthony reacts if Donny suggests Antimony would've wanted a father, or otherwise critiques his actions... or if he modifies his behavior based on learning more about Antimony as a person. What will Anthony actually do? That's more interesting to me than Anthony on Anthony. Same here. Most of the time people think they are right and that their cause is just, their reasons solid. I was waiting for this chapter, where the fact that Anthony is just as human and fallible as any of the other characters fully comes to light. I knew Tom wouldn't just write such an important - or really, any - character Disney-evil, just bad for the sake of it. Anthony just got very, very real, I can't wait to see where this chapter goes, personality-wise. But now that we know this is what STILL makes Tony tick, I'm also very interested in what he exactly did / aims to do, misguided by his guilt... (And let us not forget ol' Donny's words earlier!) |
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Post by matoyak on Aug 5, 2015 8:16:05 GMT
Unfortunately, he doesn't have the added bonus of being an adorably deadly woodland creature. Anthony rolls d20! Anthony gets a natural one! Due to +5 from the "Attempted murder of daughter figure" feat he avoids the Critical failure, but being a human doesn't get to apply the extra bonus +15 "Deadly and Adorable Woodland Creature" race trait. The GM also subtracts 2 points on the basis that Anthony ate the last bag of Doritos. |
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Post by basser on Aug 5, 2015 8:20:27 GMT
Ha! Sweet vindication for those of us who've remained loyal to Team Tony. I look forward to all y'all scrabbling to find new and inventive ways to demonize a guilt-stricken man with probable PTSD. Erm... I'll go with 'Because the stresses and guilt of an adult do not excuse the psychological abuse of a child' for $1000, Alex. Excuse, excuse, excuse. That's just another way of saying you need to find someone to play the Bad Guy, isn't it? As if for some reason y'all are unwilling or unable to accept the idea that no one player need be any more at fault than any other for a state of collective misery. Or, perhaps, the real unwillingness lies in the idea of forgiving the mistakes of someone who isn't a cuddly fox demon or a sad wolf in a tree suit? |
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Post by artezzatrigger on Aug 5, 2015 8:21:40 GMT
Oh dear, the psychopomps. I wonder how one goes about finding etherical creatures that cart off dead spirits when they have no reason to appear before you? Was it purely because they have an invested interest in Annie themselves?
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 5, 2015 8:30:02 GMT
Oh dear, the psychopomps. I wonder how one goes about finding etherical creatures that cart off dead spirits when they have no reason to appear before you? Was it purely because they have an invested interest in Annie themselves? I hesitate to speculate but Antimony killed an insect to summon the insect psychopomp... You just have to give one a reason to appear before you... and Anthony is a surgeon interested in human-taking psychopomps... |
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Post by artezzatrigger on Aug 5, 2015 8:35:59 GMT
Oh dear, the psychopomps. I wonder how one goes about finding etherical creatures that cart off dead spirits when they have no reason to appear before you? Was it purely because they have an invested interest in Annie themselves? I hesitate to speculate but Antimony killed an insect to summon the insect psychopomp... You just have to give one a reason to appear before you... and Anthony is a surgeon interested in human-taking psychopomps... I kind of meant moreso their willingness to become visible, than anything else. Like what happened with Kat and Muut a long time ago. If all it took was to wait around someone whos about to die, well...he worked in a hospital for years. All he'd have to do is stake out the room of someone with a terminal illness (or horribly mangled and near death), which sounds too easy. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 5, 2015 8:42:01 GMT
I hesitate to speculate but Antimony killed an insect to summon the insect psychopomp... You just have to give one a reason to appear before you... and Anthony is a surgeon interested in human-taking psychopomps... I kind of meant moreso their willingness to become visible, than anything else. Like what happened with Kat and Muut a long time ago. If all it took was to wait around someone whos about to die, well...he worked in a hospital for years. All he'd have to do is stake out the room of someone with a terminal illness (or horribly mangled and near death), which sounds too easy. Time. That would take a lot of Anthony's time for a tiny window of psychopomp presence. Might not get much attention, either, someone just dying at their own time... |
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Post by dliessmgg on Aug 5, 2015 8:48:17 GMT
Erm... I'll go with 'Because the stresses and guilt of an adult do not excuse the psychological abuse of a child' for $1000, Alex. Excuse, excuse, excuse. That's just another way of saying you need to find someone to play the Bad Guy, isn't it? As if for some reason y'all are unwilling or unable to accept the idea that no one player need be any more at fault than any other for a state of collective misery. Or, perhaps, the real unwillingness lies in the idea of forgiving the mistakes of someone who isn't a cuddly fox demon or a sad wolf in a tree suit? I don't think anyone here sees Gunnerkrigg as Good Guys vs Bad Guys. That doesn't stop them from differentiating between the goodness of the justifications a character has for their own actions vs the goodness of the effects of their actions. The gap between those two things is quite big for Anthony. |
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Post by arf on Aug 5, 2015 9:00:52 GMT
"The man who killed her mother."
... well, it takes two to tango, and I gather Surma knew the risk (although, why take it?)
I must say, Don has a very expressive line in spectacle frames.
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Post by Kitty Hamilton on Aug 5, 2015 9:06:15 GMT
Erm... I'll go with 'Because the stresses and guilt of an adult do not excuse the psychological abuse of a child' for $1000, Alex. Excuse, excuse, excuse. That's just another way of saying you need to find someone to play the Bad Guy, isn't it? As if for some reason y'all are unwilling or unable to accept the idea that no one player need be any more at fault than any other for a state of collective misery. Or, perhaps, the real unwillingness lies in the idea of forgiving the mistakes of someone who isn't a cuddly fox demon or a sad wolf in a tree suit? Just to clarify, Antimony, a young girl who is desperate for the approval of her father and lost her mother, is as responsible for the 'state of collective misery' as her adult father who basically abandoned her for two years without a word? Everyone isn't equally at fault. Anthony's at fault. |
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Post by aline on Aug 5, 2015 9:22:11 GMT
I am having strong doubts as to whether there was actual love in the relationship between Surma and Tony. He sounds more like a friend who promised to help out and failed to do so than a lover. Anyway, actions speak louder than words man. The guy spent 12 years barely doing anything else than trying to save Surma. He left his own friend without a word because *she* didn't want contact with the Court. And after failing to cure her he was so crushed that he became incapable of thinking rationaly (failing to save someone isn't the same as killing them, a surgeon of all people has got to know that). If that's not love, I don't know what is. But I agree that when dealing with those emotions he is completely self-centered. I doubt it. I think she's been in about the same place (I killed my mother and my dad knows, he hates me doesn't he?) and she will more and more understand how similar and how close she is to her father. And reconcile herself with his weaknesses and hers. Although depending on what kind of other revelations are waiting for us, that might not come right away. |
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Post by justcurious on Aug 5, 2015 10:01:59 GMT
Tony said he couldn't find a medical explanation for Surma's condition. Yet its nature had to have been explained to him. This sounds like he refused to believe it because it did not fit in with how he wished to approach problems. If that is so then it is no wonder that he believed that he could help her and no wonder that he failed.
Modern science has rejected magic, alchemy and astrology because there is no empirical evidence for them. But in the universe of Gunnerkrigg Court some of these phenomena are observably real and hence proper subjects for scientific study. Anthony seems to have rejected them or at least not paid sufficient attention to what their practitioners said they did. He handicapped his own studies here.
So we have a guilt either over failure due to his blind spots or a failure because his blind spots prevented him seeing that success was impossible.
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Post by edzepp on Aug 5, 2015 10:15:29 GMT
Erm... I'll go with 'Because the stresses and guilt of an adult do not excuse the psychological abuse of a child' for $1000, Alex. Excuse, excuse, excuse. That's just another way of saying you need to find someone to play the Bad Guy, isn't it? As if for some reason y'all are unwilling or unable to accept the idea that no one player need be any more at fault than any other for a state of collective misery. Or, perhaps, the real unwillingness lies in the idea of forgiving the mistakes of someone who isn't a cuddly fox demon or a sad wolf in a tree suit? Look, everyone has gotten really (and perhaps unnecessarily) angry about their opinions and it's probably been frustrating for everyone involved. But I don't think we need to continue being antagonistic on this topic. Yes, we have received the nuance this character deserves, and I am certainly more sympathetic to Tony than I may have been a while ago. But judging by how Tom has written this so far, Anthony still isn't really off the hook for the way he's treated his daughter, he will have to answer for it, and not everything will fall in his favour. Tom is too smart to play exclusively to Team Annie or Team Tony. Both 'teams' will have something to crow about as we go back and forth and it may never be settled how we like. You are right in one sense though: maybe we should have realized that all along and not jumped in excessively. But this was always going to be heated. |
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Post by TBeholder on Aug 5, 2015 10:18:33 GMT
Tony said he couldn't find a medical explanation for Surma's condition. Yet its nature had to have been explained to him. This sounds like he refused to believe it because it did not fit in with how he wished to approach problems. If that is so then it is no wonder that he believed that he could help her and no wonder that he failed. Yes. It's far beyond the point where all ignorance is necessarily wilful. I suppose it's no harm when he just gives himself a fool's errand, but... Modern science has rejected magic, alchemy and astrology because there is no empirical evidence for them. Modern Science™ (aka "pop science"; there's absolutely nothing "modern" about it, of course) is not a science. And it rejects things simply because they don't agree with approved preconceptions, such as "revolutions happen because there's a Revolutionary Situation™ and this has nothing to do with Sun spots" and spouts any nonsense to this end. Running over thermodynamics as needed (and more, if you're American). |
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Post by Per on Aug 5, 2015 10:21:52 GMT
So, Anthony ended the Merostomatazon war by killing everyone on the Merostomatazon home planet using only a box of scalpels, just to get the psychopomps to notice him. We've suspected it, but it's interesting to have the confirmation.
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Garbage
New Member
ANTHONY CARVER DEFENSE FORCE, 1ST LIEUTENANT OF THE SUPPORT DIVISION
Posts: 29 
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Post by Garbage on Aug 5, 2015 11:25:46 GMT
Ha! Sweet vindication for those of us who've remained loyal to Team Tony. I look forward to all y'all scrabbling to find new and inventive ways to demonize a guilt-stricken man with probable PTSD. Huzzah, someone actually understands what the hell is going on with Tony's character, instead of blindly hating him while forgetting the three hundred and 51 levels of depth to someones actions there usually are in this webcomic! Look at that man, he is showing remorse, genuine, he cares about Antimony enough to care so much about how she feels about him, even if the poor bastard hasn't got a clue in sam hell how to actually do anything about it the right way. There is a semblance here that he is trying, even if in the entirely incorrect direction. |
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Post by justcurious on Aug 5, 2015 11:55:42 GMT
So Anthony's abandonment of Antimony is now understandable. It is still not excusable.
He had exaggerated expectations of what he could do for Surma. Wishful thinking and blind spots appear to be behind that.
He felt an unwarranted guilt over that. His weakness at understanding others led him to think that they would judge him by his exaggerated standards and it led him to be blind to Antimony's needs. His idea of atonement was exile, something that led to him committing the offence of abandonment. He let feeling like he was atoning for Surma interfere badly with caring for Antimony. He he did not let himself see her needs when they did not mesh with his plan for atonement. So we have an unwise attempt to atone for a mostly imaginary offence leading to a real offence.
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Post by OGRuddawg on Aug 5, 2015 12:19:49 GMT
Oh no, we know what happens when Anthony gets desperate. I think the psychopomps are in for it if Anthony actually contacts them.
Also, I don't hate Anthony outright anymore. I still dislike him for the way he is treating Annie, but at least he has sufficient emotional trauma to partially explain why he is acting this way.
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lero
New Member
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Post by lero on Aug 5, 2015 12:42:34 GMT
So he put himself in a near-death situation to contact the psychopomps, right? That could explain why he looks like a crumpled old piece of paper.
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Post by Rasselas on Aug 5, 2015 12:43:49 GMT
Ha! Sweet vindication for those of us who've remained loyal to Team Tony. I look forward to all y'all scrabbling to find new and inventive ways to demonize a guilt-stricken man with probable PTSD. I do feel vindicated for urging that there's more complexity to Tony, and for urging for a better understanding of his perspective. I don't think I've ever felt comfortable with being on "Team Tony," though. What I know in life is that nobody's position of pain is the center of the world. We all hold our own universes of suffering, and Tony's is obviously a well-watered one. Antimony has her own, and she's a child, and mistakes were made. There are observable facts of Tony mishandling his role as a parent. If nothing else, in the consequences they've brought to his child. I feel hoodwinked. My first thought at reading the page was, "Why didn't I think of this?!" I knew that Tony was guilt-stricken and miserable, but I never formulated it this way. I think that we've been slightly mislead previously in the comic. "He still loves you very much." Even Reynardine, who's never been a fan of Tony's, didn't put the blame straight on him. He said "Especially your damned father." But he also put the blame on Annie. She was the reason Surma died. Not even Reynardine formulated it as "How could she live with the man that killed her mother?", and he had very good reason to hate the man. Why didn't I think of this? I knew he was suffering, but I kept thinking he was blaming Annie, despite how monstrous that made him seem. Instead of realizing he must be blaming himself. So obvious, in retrospect! This is a masterful lesson in a Rashomon-like way, not to judge someone's perspective unless we've seen the story through their eyes. I feel that the internet audiences sorely need such a lesson, because bandwagons and hate mobs form with incredible ease and volatility. Insight is key. An effort to understand is much more constructive than violent, knee-jerk outrage. |
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Post by sable0aria on Aug 5, 2015 12:44:52 GMT
When I said no explanation is ever going to excuse his behavior toward Annie in my eyes, I was 100% right. In fact I'm more angry with him now than I was before. You sure as hell failed Anthony Carver, you failed as a parent. Annie should not have to find all this out in such a sneaky manner. Anthony should have actually talked to her, more importantly he should have LISTENED to her. And if it turns out he's acting the way he toward her as some idiotic farce to try and make her hate him, he deserves another etheric face punch ASAP.
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Post by Rasselas on Aug 5, 2015 12:54:41 GMT
Another observation: this revelation is even more in tune with that theory I proposed a long time ago, that it is Annie's perspective which ultimately shapes the comic. The rough art, the cold and distant teachers, they were all a part of how Annie viewed the world. As Annie learned more about the world around her and started to engage with it, teachers became real people, the rough edges softened and there was warmth and fluidity in the world.
So it is only natural that we'd explore the emotional context of Surma's death from Annie's perspective, neglecting how it might've shaped others. The shock of discovering that Anthony has his own complex understanding comes through her eyes, as well.
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Post by pxc on Aug 5, 2015 13:09:33 GMT
The idea that Anthony's actions as a parent, and as an etheric surgeon (if indeed that's what it was) are somehow now justified because he needlessly blames himself for not knowing how to cure Surma is absolutely laughable.
He's human, he has reasons for what he does. Great. I don't think most here legitimately thought of Tony as a force of pure evil. Most acknowledged that he probably has reasons, that they're probably misguided, and that regardless of those, nothing excuses his abandonment of Annie, the no-consent bone laser surgery (again, if that's what it was), or his lack of explanation and further poor treatment of her upon his return.
Now, we're starting to see what those misguided reasons are. Yes, it makes him more relateable, more human, it helps us understand why he has done what he's done. DUH. Understanding is what exposition is for. I understand why many German people, downtrodden from WWI reparations, threw reason out the window and followed Hitler down his rabbit hole of violent madness. It doesn't excuse them doing it.
I'm envisioning a scene later on in which Annie confronts her father, tells him she doesn't blame him for Surma's death and that it wasn't his fault. Maybe even explains more about it that even he doesn't know. But then also says she does blame him for leaving her alone for years and for treating her terribly after returning. For putting her through so much needless distress. But I don't know if she'll wait for him to explain, or just leave after saying what she needs to say. I don't think a tearful hug session is imminent.
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Post by Daedalus on Aug 5, 2015 13:17:11 GMT
Nice job, Tony. You know, if you had talked to your daughter*, she could have asked the guides to become visible and you could have asked directly. So much irony! So the theory about why he hates his daughter IS correct. Not that I really doubted it, but it's nice to have unambiguous confirmation for once. EDIT: I, um, misread panel three. So this is still in the air. *Yes, this is against his characterization, but still. Irony. Ha! Sweet vindication for those of us who've remained loyal to Team Tony. I look forward to all y'all scrabbling to find new and inventive ways to demonize a guilt-stricken man with probable PTSD. Just because his pain is understandable does NOT mean the rage towards him is misplaced. Of course he's going to be sympathetic, that's the nature of characters in this comic. It doesn't mean that what he's done to Annie is immediately forgiven. You called people out for considering Tony a one-dimensional Disney villain earlier, but somehow the fact that he's not one-dimensional is considered proof that he's a paladin of virtue? |
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Post by Deepbluediver on Aug 5, 2015 13:45:10 GMT
Ha! Sweet vindication for those of us who've remained loyal to Team Tony. I look forward to all y'all scrabbling to find new and inventive ways to demonize a guilt-stricken man with probable PTSD. I was never trying to be part of any team- all I ever said was that we shouldn't rush to judgement. Virtually every character in the series has proven to have multiple layers and complex loyalties and motivations. I just didn't like that roughly one-and-a-half panels after Tony showed up, the forums were like "RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE!!!!". I thought that was a little quick off the mark. |
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Post by youwiththeface on Aug 5, 2015 14:03:33 GMT
Ha! Sweet vindication for those of us who've remained loyal to Team Tony. I look forward to all y'all scrabbling to find new and inventive ways to demonize a guilt-stricken man with probable PTSD. I don't need to try. This is more or less the excuse Gendo Ikari used to explain his treatment of Shinji, and that wasn't in any way justified either. Anthony quite obviously never considered that Annie might disagree, or might want him around, or would want or should have any kind of say in the matter at all. And how hard would it have been to leave a note at the hospital telling her he wasn't going to be seeing her for a couple years? We all pretty much knew that Tony wasn't going to be a cardboard cut out, the question is, are his actions still inexcusable even taking into account his motives for taking them? The answer, for me, is yes. |
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Post by imaginaryfriend on Aug 5, 2015 14:06:26 GMT
Ha! Sweet vindication for those of us who've remained loyal to Team Tony. I look forward to all y'all scrabbling to find new and inventive ways to demonize a guilt-stricken man with probable PTSD. I was never trying to be part of any team- all I ever said was that we shouldn't rush to judgement. Virtually every character in the series has proven to have multiple layers and complex loyalties and motivations. I just didn't like that that roughly one-and-a-half panels after Tony showed up, the forums were like "RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE!!!!". I thought that was a little quick off the mark. To be fair, Anthony's return seems to have derailed the whole "rescue Jeanne" thing and Coyote dialogues, along with other adventures, for the foreseeable future. On the menu is Anthony and more Anthony. While this webcomic gives us a glorious three full-color pages per week with clockwork regularity, waiting for updates does require some patience and commitment; whatever his layers are the simple fact that he's brought Antimony's free-wheeling life to a crashing halt does mean we'll have to wait even longer than otherwise for those plot aspects we've detoured from. What new character who's appearance caused such a thing wouldn't earn some fan-hate and/or nerd-rage? And leaving aside the parenting pro/con debate entirely, he came from nowhere and was/is large and in charge over established characters. |
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Post by Rasselas on Aug 5, 2015 14:09:09 GMT
Anthony's actions have caused unnecessary suffering to Antimony. I think this is plainly observable.
Focusing on blame when everyone is pinballs ricocheting off of each other and the environment is kind of lame. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It should be rectified, not equivocated. Still, a tunnelvision focus on blame isn't going to reveal much more meat.
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