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Post by Bontage on Jun 17, 2015 18:29:42 GMT
I'd love nothing more than Mr Carver and Annie opening the Donlan's front door and seeing a massive crowd of students, robots and certain Court figures just sitting there. Just to let Annie know that they're rooting for her. And letting Carver know that if he continues to treat Annie as he does, he's going to end up as such fine paste that they'll never find a trace of him ever again. That evil John Carver, always supporting those fucking martians. ... Yup, I'm feeling blonde now. Don't know how THAT happened. Oh well, I just need to go back, edit my post, and then YOU'LL be the lunatic! |
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Post by TBeholder on Jun 17, 2015 19:35:48 GMT
He is aware. ... and Annie's just given Kat the brush-off. Yes, but is this fragile ego, "Sir Anthony bravely ran away", or "Mission Accomplished"? Given his first phrase at this table... I keep hoping that something will happen to help Annie be less... in this situation... and it keeps getting worse and worse. Was obvious - Kat doesn't have a habit of seething quietly. Despite having good reasons to develop it. What was the chance? We need Zimmy to punch him in the face again. She already tried punching him, and it didn't help. Besides, if that's real Tony, he's the guy who taught Annie some judo. And most importantly - come on, like it's the worst Zimmy can do.  I suspect on the next page he'll forbid Annie from spending any time with Kat. He tried to do it without giving orders, what's with his "subtle" compliments. Which still kind of lines up with how he started with isolating Annie from day 1. Or maybe not, but Kat won't be able to tell. In which case Kat's most tempting options for intermediaries are "Zimmy" (now that she had an opportunity to personally appreciate the Instant Amusement Park effect) and "Laser Cow". Though either may remind her of Jack. |
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quark
Full Member
Posts: 137
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Post by quark on Jun 17, 2015 21:27:39 GMT
That was really hard to read - expected, but really hard. I've been in Kat's shoes, and I've learned too that it's impossible to confront an abuser with the abused in the room. I understand her and Donald, though.
Antimony needs Anthony, at the moment, she wants to be on his side, to be with him, to be loved or at least accepted. She fears that she'll be abandoned again, do something that upsets him so he leaves. That will never happen if she sides with anybody who opposes him, so her reaction was pretty much a foregone conclusion from the start. Anthony's skills as manipulator showed the last few pages - he's not socially inept. He's very good at deflecting, redirecting and hiding his intentions - and Donald really isn't very good at manipulation, otherwise he would have spotted and stopped Anthony's redirect.
So - with things like this, I think Antimony needs to find out for herself who she wants to cut out of her life and who she wants in it. She knows Kat would never abandon her, so she feels secure in giving her the cold shoulder, same as Renard. She has a secret method of communication (if her father didn't find out yet), and Parley/Smitty and Kat will find her wherever she is, so it might be possible that she works through this on her own, or with a little help from Jones.
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Post by csj on Jun 17, 2015 22:12:00 GMT
I already have an answer to this question of course, but I'm curious how you all would respond to this blanket statement. What is meant by 'wrong'? The concept of 'wrong' and 'wrongness' has a whole lot of problems, philosophically-speaking. First off, is the fact that moral 'right' and wrong' tend to be defined in relation to one another, leading to circular logic (such as 'it's wrong because it's not right' and 'right is the opposite of wrong'). Our understanding of 'right' and 'wrong' is unfixed* and perceived differently by individuals, based both on personal rationalisation/understanding, and the interaction of this individual idea of 'wrongness' with that of the larger collective/society as a whole. Consider how societal values have changed over time. What was considered 'right' and 'wrong' twenty years ago, forty, a hundred, is different to how they are perceived today, even within any one nation. The statement 'Anthony has done nothing wrong' may be valid, yet the statement 'Anthony has done nothing right' may be equally valid at the same time. That's the problem. May as well state 'I do not like what Anthony is doing'.  Of course, this is all silly nerdy nonsense. Anthony is a fictional character and it is problematic to psychoanalyse fictional characters without sufficient insight from on their psyche, let alone an explanation from their creators. He's intended to provoke a reaction from readers. Reading too much into him as a character will probably reduce one's appreciation of GKC as a whole and all that. * Unless you're universalist, absolutist or utilitarian; in which case, you smell, nyah nyah. |
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Post by deuswyvern on Jun 17, 2015 22:17:30 GMT
That was really hard to read - expected, but really hard. I've been in Kat's shoes, and I've learned too that it's impossible to confront an abuser with the abused in the room. I understand her and Donald, though. Antimony needs Anthony, at the moment, she wants to be on his side, to be with him, to be loved or at least accepted. She fears that she'll be abandoned again, do something that upsets him so he leaves. That will never happen if she sides with anybody who opposes him, so her reaction was pretty much a foregone conclusion from the start. Anthony's skills as manipulator showed the last few pages - he's not socially inept. He's very good at deflecting, redirecting and hiding his intentions - and Donald really isn't very good at manipulation, otherwise he would have spotted and stopped Anthony's redirect. So - with things like this, I think Antimony needs to find out for herself who she wants to cut out of her life and who she wants in it. She knows Kat would never abandon her, so she feels secure in giving her the cold shoulder, same as Renard. She has a secret method of communication (if her father didn't find out yet), and Parley/Smitty and Kat will find her wherever she is, so it might be possible that she works through this on her own, or with a little help from Jones. Deflecting, redirecting and hiding intentions are all abilities that socially awkward people can exhibit. They make it easier to engage people without getting close, something that makes people with poor social skills uncomfortable. I have difficulty seeing this as a masterstroke, all he did was not answer questions that he had no incentive to answer. Not being socially inept means the ability to get people to like you and develop healthy relationships, somthing he has never shown an aptitude towards. If all of this was calculated, it seems needlessly convoluted. He doesn't need to go to a dinner party to provoke Kat, she clearly already hates him. |
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Post by youwiththeface on Jun 17, 2015 23:33:43 GMT
That was really hard to read - expected, but really hard. I've been in Kat's shoes, and I've learned too that it's impossible to confront an abuser with the abused in the room. I understand her and Donald, though. Antimony needs Anthony, at the moment, she wants to be on his side, to be with him, to be loved or at least accepted. She fears that she'll be abandoned again, do something that upsets him so he leaves. That will never happen if she sides with anybody who opposes him, so her reaction was pretty much a foregone conclusion from the start. Anthony's skills as manipulator showed the last few pages - he's not socially inept. He's very good at deflecting, redirecting and hiding his intentions - and Donald really isn't very good at manipulation, otherwise he would have spotted and stopped Anthony's redirect. So - with things like this, I think Antimony needs to find out for herself who she wants to cut out of her life and who she wants in it. She knows Kat would never abandon her, so she feels secure in giving her the cold shoulder, same as Renard. She has a secret method of communication (if her father didn't find out yet), and Parley/Smitty and Kat will find her wherever she is, so it might be possible that she works through this on her own, or with a little help from Jones. Deflecting, redirecting and hiding intentions are all abilities that socially awkward people can exhibit. They make it easier to engage people without getting close, something that makes people with poor social skills uncomfortable. I have difficulty seeing this as a masterstroke, all he did was not answer questions that he had no incentive to answer. Not being socially inept means the ability to get people to like you and develop healthy relationships, somthing he has never shown an aptitude towards. If all of this was calculated, it seems needlessly convoluted. He doesn't need to go to a dinner party to provoke Kat, she clearly already hates him. Well I think he kind of had no choice but to go to dinner. Not going would've invited even more questions, or an even angrier confrontation with Mr. Donlan. I don't think he was planning on provoking anybody either, he's just talented that way. |
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Post by deuswyvern on Jun 17, 2015 23:52:46 GMT
Deflecting, redirecting and hiding intentions are all abilities that socially awkward people can exhibit. They make it easier to engage people without getting close, something that makes people with poor social skills uncomfortable. I have difficulty seeing this as a masterstroke, all he did was not answer questions that he had no incentive to answer. Not being socially inept means the ability to get people to like you and develop healthy relationships, somthing he has never shown an aptitude towards. If all of this was calculated, it seems needlessly convoluted. He doesn't need to go to a dinner party to provoke Kat, she clearly already hates him. Well I think he kind of had no choice but to go to dinner. Not going would've invited even more questions, or an even angrier confrontation with Mr. Donlan. I don't think he was planning on provoking anybody either, he's just talented that way. I think the last bit was a bit tangential since it was not really in the original post. It was in response to speculation that he provoked Kat intentionally to further isolate Annie, but I can now see that it is confusing in context. I basically agree with what you said, although I also think that he genuinely wanted to reconnect with Donny since they were supposedly friends. |
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Post by Sky Schemer on Jun 18, 2015 1:35:53 GMT
In which case Kat's most tempting options for intermediaries are "Zimmy" (now that she had an opportunity to personally appreciate the Instant Amusement Park effect) and "Laser Cow".  lasercow.jpg (50.29 KB) |
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Post by Daedalus on Jun 18, 2015 5:23:54 GMT
He may not need to - Annie may be getting fed up with Kat at this rate. Dangit, Kat - can't you see beyond your own hatred of Tony to how you're inadvertently punishing Annie? She wanted a nice dinner out with you and your family too. This page is a pretty textbook scene of why you don't confront abusers in front of the abused. The abused almost always side with their abuser. Considering how realistic this depiction of abuse has been, I'm wondering if Tom is partially patterning it off of an experience he or someone he knows had. I hope not. Nobody deserves a parent like this, real people even less than fictional ones. |
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Post by zbeeblebrox on Jun 18, 2015 6:59:19 GMT
I only hope that this is a slow build-up to something major that'll change the current status quo. No, I'm sure this story will continue on like this forever ;p |
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Post by justcurious on Jun 18, 2015 9:02:36 GMT
IMHO, a lot of the confusion over Annie's behavior in the last two chapters has been because the comic has, until now, treated her as an adult. She's taken on responsibilities that a modern 16-year-old would not be trusted with, and acquired powers that don't exist in the real world. So, when people see her suddenly deferring to this strange man, I think a lot of them reach for models that apply to abuse between adults. It's easy to forget that real children are deferential to their parents. Take a proud, confident child and have their mom or dad call them out publicly, and suddenly their entire demeanor changes - it's all "yes mom, yes dad." It can be a shocking transformation for friends to witness, but this is a pretty normal response for a kid. People should also note that both Kat's and Annie's responsibilities have not involved dealings with adult humans. Kat's responsibilities are to the child-like robots. Annie's responsibilities are to are large extent to animals, abeit intelligent ones. Neither of these responsibilities is as demanding as dealing with adults and are not adequate preparation for this. Annie has had problems with disregarding the knowledge of the adults. They are still in their early teens, even if they are precocious in some respects.
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Post by Sky Schemer on Jun 18, 2015 12:14:51 GMT
I only hope that this is a slow build-up to something major that'll change the current status quo. No, I'm sure this story will continue on like this forever ;p But we will be here for a while. From a story telling standpoint, you don't drop a bombshell like this then fix it a couple chapters later. The characters, and the reader, need to stew in it for a bit. This is going to be a rough book. |
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arzeik
Junior Member
Posts: 77 
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Post by arzeik on Jun 18, 2015 13:13:48 GMT
Wow, I still wonder how Annie got to stand up from her chair in spite of the lack of spine. And yes, I know there are reasons for her to be like that, but still... My feelings towards Anthony continue to be perfectly depicted by: ![]()  |
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Post by kelantar on Jun 18, 2015 13:30:34 GMT
Kat saying "You can't use her like this.", while holding Annie down... What was being said earlier about people talking over Annie about this, rather than to her? I think that's just about to come to a head. No, I don't blame Kat for falling into that trap, either. It's a subtle one that could just as easily catch an adult (like me!) not used to dealing with abusive relationships. It's hard to talk over her when all she's said the entire time is "Mr. Donlan, please." And really, there was no reason for her to say that; it wasn't even about Annie. Donnie has every right to ask why he hasn't heard from one of his closest friends in years. My personal hope is that Jones shows up (not necessarily right now) and expresses her disappointment in Annie. As a neutral party, that may be what it takes for Annie to realize that her autonomy has been completely stripped from her. |
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Post by Per on Jun 18, 2015 13:39:23 GMT
Some things bear repeating repeatedly, such as: Anthony is a fictional character And: Side question, when did the conventions of thread naming change? I think thread titles should only use Tom's notes when there isn't text in the comic; the connection between (well-chosen) dialogue and the story context used to find threads is as a rule much stronger. Here, "Don't use her like that" might have been a good identifier. |
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Post by deuswyvern on Jun 18, 2015 16:34:57 GMT
IMHO, a lot of the confusion over Annie's behavior in the last two chapters has been because the comic has, until now, treated her as an adult. She's taken on responsibilities that a modern 16-year-old would not be trusted with, and acquired powers that don't exist in the real world. So, when people see her suddenly deferring to this strange man, I think a lot of them reach for models that apply to abuse between adults. It's easy to forget that real children are deferential to their parents. Take a proud, confident child and have their mom or dad call them out publicly, and suddenly their entire demeanor changes - it's all "yes mom, yes dad." It can be a shocking transformation for friends to witness, but this is a pretty normal response for a kid. People should also note that both Kat's and Annie's responsibilities have not involved dealings with adult humans. Kat's responsibilities are to the child-like robots. Annie's responsibilities are to are large extent to animals, abeit intelligent ones. Neither of these responsibilities is as demanding as dealing with adults and are not adequate preparation for this. Annie has had problems with disregarding the knowledge of the adults. They are still in their early teens, even if they are precocious in some respects. Why are adults more demanding? Coyote and Ysengrin both have the emotional complexity of adults. and currently there is no evidence that Anthony will go insane and try to kill Annie at a moments notice. Not that Annie has mastered dealing with Coyote and Ysengrin, and it is also true that you will act differently around family so the current portrayal still holds water. Regardless, Annie's experiances in the forest are just as valid a life experience as dealing with human adults. Annie is substantially less sheltered than many abuse victims, so not all textbook behavior is applicable. |
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Post by Daedalus on Jun 19, 2015 0:08:06 GMT
Coyote...has the emotional complexity of an adult |
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Post by deuswyvern on Jun 19, 2015 1:14:51 GMT
Coyote...has the emotional complexity of an adult ...I never said maturity. |
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Post by zbeeblebrox on Jun 19, 2015 2:21:13 GMT
Some things bear repeating repeatedly, such as: Anthony is a fictional character And: Side question, when did the conventions of thread naming change? I think thread titles should only use Tom's notes when there isn't text in the comic; the connection between (well-chosen) dialogue and the story context used to find threads is as a rule much stronger. Here, "Don't use her like that" might have been a good identifier. Yes. This is important. For search purposes, please refrain from using out-of-comic quotes to title comic update threads. |
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Post by scottjm on Jun 19, 2015 3:37:43 GMT
...I never said maturity. There are plenty of Adults that are less mature then that. A frightening amount unfortunately... |
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Post by Daedalus on Jun 19, 2015 5:28:07 GMT
...I never said maturity. The distinction, to me, is that Coyote isn't complicated in the way that real people or other GKC characters are. He only really has one emotion at a time (happy, angry, sad, manic, bored, intrigued, angry, boastful, etc) and it dominates him entirely. Other characters in this comic, however, always have a mix of emotions, just like real humans. Plus, Coyote expresses his emotions very differently than normal people would, obviously - without any filter of inhibitions. The point I'm trying to make is that Coyote's emotional balance is nothing like a normal adult's (or a human's, for that matter), so comparing them is like comparing apples to aardvarks. |
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Post by deuswyvern on Jun 19, 2015 14:13:46 GMT
...I never said maturity. The distinction, to me, is that Coyote isn't complicated in the way that real people or other GKC characters are. He only really has one emotion at a time (happy, angry, sad, manic, bored, intrigued, angry, boastful, etc) and it dominates him entirely. Other characters in this comic, however, always have a mix of emotions, just like real humans. Plus, Coyote expresses his emotions very differently than normal people would, obviously - without any filter of inhibitions. The point I'm trying to make is that Coyote's emotional balance is nothing like a normal adult's (or a human's, for that matter), so comparing them is like comparing apples to aardvarks. I haven't really seen much evidence that he only has one emotion at a time. He always has some hidden agenda he's working towards which seems to demand emotional complexity on his part. He's narcissistic, hyper, manipulative and has no impulse control all of which are traits that humans can exhibit, so the "apples to aardvarks" metaphor seems a bit excessive. Any believable character has to draw from humans to a heavy degree. In the page you referenced Coyote is trying to instigate a confrontation between Annie and Ysengrin. His immaturity is designed to make her be openly disrespectful of him, something Ysengrin cannot tolerate. This seems like emotionally complex behavior to me. I'm not sure why you think none of the skills needed to deal with coyote would transfer to adults. He's substantially harder to deal with than Eglamore or the Donlan's. Perhaps he won't teach her everything there is to know about humanity, but neither will any single human adult. |
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